View Full Version : Anyone heard of Bishop "JABO" Green?
Rhoni
05-20-2007, 01:28 PM
Just curious. I heard him speak today and he had many kind things to say about Life Tabernacle, and Bro. James Kilgore in particular. He shared many good things about "Finishing Strong".
Blessings, Rhoni
crakjak
05-20-2007, 01:31 PM
Just curious. I heard him speak today and he had many kind things to say about Life Tabernacle, and Bro. James Kilgore in particular. He shared many good things about "Finishing Strong".
Blessings, Rhoni
Yes, he is out of the Houston area, I remember him from my childhood when he was in the UPC, at youth camps primarily. His DNL I know for a church we attended in Dallas area many years ago.
Rhoni
05-20-2007, 01:35 PM
Yes, he is out of the Houston area, I remember him from my childhood when he was in the UPC, at youth camps primarily. His DNL I know for a church we attended in Dallas area many years ago.
He has a large church in Spring [outside of Conroe].
Beautiful building and large property ... a friend of mine is pastoring a Spanish speaking congregation in their old church building....
Was presiding Bishop for the Global Network ... I believe before Dehart.
Just curious. I heard him speak today and he had many kind things to say about Life Tabernacle, and Bro. James Kilgore in particular. He shared many good things about "Finishing Strong".
Blessings, Rhoni
I know my Father John Eckstadt, knew Jabo Green out of Texas.
What I know of him he is a good man...
Nathan Eckstadt
Rhoni
05-20-2007, 01:40 PM
Was presiding Bishop for the Global Network ... I believe before Dehart.
He has a church of approx 2,000 members so he doesn't really need to many other responsibilities. His wife seems like such a sweet lady.
Steve Epley
05-20-2007, 01:41 PM
He don't believe water is wet-the sky is blue-fat meat is greasy- and make up the rest.:bubble God bless his heart.:haloplug
Rhoni
05-20-2007, 01:41 PM
I know my Father John Eckstadt, knew Jabo Green out of Texas.
What I know of him he is a good man...
Nathan Eckstadt
That's the one...he seems like a very good man. He had an excellent message to preach this morning. He was at PEACE Church here in Mesquite, Pastor James Baker [former MK from Brazil].
Rhoni
05-20-2007, 01:43 PM
He don't believe water is wet-the sky is blue-fat meat is greasy- and make up the rest.:bubble God bless his heart.:haloplug
:haloplug Get over it Bro. Epley. Just say what you mean...they don't abide by the rigid Apostolic dress standards of past generations. They have moved on with enlightenment but do not deter in any way from the message. We had an awesome baptismal service with 4, get baptized by immersion in Jesus Name.:sing
Blessings, Rhoni
Steve Epley
05-20-2007, 01:45 PM
:haloplug Get over it Bro. Epley. Just say what you mean...they don't abide by the rigid Apostolic dress standards of past generations. They have moved on with enlightenment but do not deter in any way from the message. We had an awesome baptismal service with 4, get baptized by immersion in Jesus Name.:sing
Blessings, Rhoni
"Enlightment" sounds big and pious but the lights are out and they don't know it. Blind folks don't know the light from the dark it is the same to them. So someone says the light is on and they say Amen. But sighted know when the light goes out.
Rhoni
05-20-2007, 01:48 PM
"Enlightment" sounds big and pious but the lights are out and they don't know it. Blind folks don't know the light from the dark it is the same to them. So someone says the light is on and they say Amen. But sighted know when the light goes out.
Talk about pious...Bro. Epley when are you going to learn that there will be people in heaven that you wouldn't let darken the door of your church?:sing
Respectfully, Rhoni
He seemed like a just man ... he addressed the a Spanish speaking conference at my buddy's church ... the place that Bishop Green essentially has allowed them to use for almost nothing .....
Steve Epley
05-20-2007, 01:51 PM
Talk about pious...Bro. Epley when are you going to learn that there will be people in heaven that you wouldn't let darken the door of your church?:sing
Respectfully, Rhoni
ANYONE can darken in our door so that statement is absurd but on the paltform that is different. A NOSE-RING wearer can sit in our church but just can't sing on our plaform. They are welcome.
Rhoni
05-20-2007, 01:53 PM
He seemed like a just man ... he addressed the a Spanish speaking conference at my buddy's church ... the place that Bishop Green essentially has allowed them to use for almost nothing .....
Bro. Dan,
He is a just man, and an excellent speaker I might add!:highfive
Blessings, Rhoni
Hoovie
05-20-2007, 01:56 PM
Did Jabo leave UPC when Mark Hanby did?
Rhoni
05-20-2007, 01:58 PM
Did Jabo leave UPC when Mark Hanby did?
I don't know when but most of the missionaries, their wives, and many ministry families I knew in the day left UCPI many years ago. They are no longer UPCI and Pastor good strong Apostolic churches.
Blessings, Rhoni
Hoovie
05-20-2007, 02:03 PM
I don't know when but most of the missionaries, their wives, and many ministry families I knew in the day left UCPI many years ago. They are no longer UPCI and Pastor good strong Apostolic churches.
Blessings, Rhoni
Well.... I'm not sure hanby fits that description.
Rhoni
05-20-2007, 02:25 PM
Well.... I'm not sure hanby fits that description.
I know many great ministers who felllowship, have been mentored by Bro. Hanby, and I would never speak negatively of anyone whom God choses to use.
Blessings, rhoni
Brett Prince
05-20-2007, 02:42 PM
Did Jabo leave UPC when Mark Hanby did?
No. Jabo was in until the late 80s. He left right after or right before I went to TBC in '89. His ministry blessed me...it was aired on our local Christian station. He was always respectful of Bro. Kilgore, and the UPC in general for that matter. He just felt that he was heading in a different direction than the UPC and reluctantly left and handed in his card. He did this at a district event, standing and very sorrowfully stating that he felt he was heading in a different direction than the UPC...and left.
tamor
05-20-2007, 04:15 PM
He has preached for Love and Truth. I enjoyed him. I can't say that I "remember" what he preached-it has been several years since I heard him, but I do remember that he was very well received at the church and we had a very anointed service.
I thought he was in Plano, TX. Is that all close together?
Rhoni
05-20-2007, 04:23 PM
He has preached for Love and Truth. I enjoyed him. I can't say that I "remember" what he preached-it has been several years since I heard him, but I do remember that he was very well received at the church and we had a very anointed service.
I thought he was in Plano, TX. Is that all close together?
Tamor,
Plano is close to me, but he Pastors in Spring, TX, right outside Conroe before you get to Houston. Not everyone who leaves the UPCI is backslidden. God has many different avenues for people to take. One doesn't have to be in UPCI nor pass through to enter heaven;)!
Blessings, Rhoni
tamor
05-20-2007, 04:28 PM
Tamor,
Plano is close to me, but he Pastors in Spring, TX, right outside Conroe before you get to Houston. Not everyone who leaves the UPCI is backslidden. God has many different avenues for people to take. One doesn't have to be in UPCI nor pass through to enter heaven;)!
Blessings, Rhoni
AMEN, Sister! :highfive
Felicity
05-20-2007, 04:29 PM
Tamor,
Plano is close to me, but he Pastors in Spring, TX, right outside Conroe before you get to Houston. Not everyone who leaves the UPCI is backslidden. God has many different avenues for people to take. One doesn't have to be in UPCI nor pass through to enter heaven;)!
Blessings, RhoniWell thank goodness for that or there would be a mighty small number of people who would make it.
tamor
05-20-2007, 04:31 PM
Well thank goodness for that or there would be a mighty small number of people who would make it.
:thumbsup :sing
Rhoni
05-20-2007, 04:32 PM
:thumbsup :sing
Same goes for me...good post Felicity!:highfive
IAintMovin
05-20-2007, 04:33 PM
:haloplug Get over it Bro. Epley. Just say what you mean...they don't abide by the rigid Apostolic dress standards of past generations. They have moved on with enlightenment but do not deter in any way from the message. We had an awesome baptismal service with 4, get baptized by immersion in Jesus Name.:sing
Blessings, Rhoni
Now that is funny..................thanks for the laugh..............
chosenbyone
05-20-2007, 04:38 PM
No. Jabo was in until the late 80s. He left right after or right before I went to TBC in '89. His ministry blessed me...it was aired on our local Christian station. He was always respectful of Bro. Kilgore, and the UPC in general for that matter. He just felt that he was heading in a different direction than the UPC and reluctantly left and handed in his card. He did this at a district event, standing and very sorrowfully stating that he felt he was heading in a different direction than the UPC...and left.
I attended Life when Jabo Green was still in the UPC and he last preached there in early 91. It was very hard for Bishop Kilgore because Jabo grew up in his church and and I remembered Brother Kilgore weeping behind the pulpit thinking that Jabo Green was walking away from the truth.
There are still congregants who attend Life who are related to Brother Green. I used to be good friends with the Jones twins, Jennifer and Jill who were nieces of Brother Green.
I always admired Brother Green and it was good to hear today that his walk with the Lord remained strong.
Thanks for sharing, Rhoni.
chosen
Brett,
I think your timeline for Jabu Green getting out of the UPC may be a little off. I thought he got out over the affirmation fiasco around 92.
He started an org. made up of exUPCers that eventually merged with the org. started by my pastor, L.H. Hardwick.
He was the head of the org. before Paul Russell was for several years and now Jack DeHart is.
Sherri - Jabu has pastored in Spring, TX on the outskirts of Houston forever. Not anywhere near Dallas or Plano.
tamor
05-20-2007, 05:28 PM
Brett,
I think your timeline for Jabu Green getting out of the UPC may be a little off. I thought he got out over the affirmation fiasco around 92.
He started an org. made up of exUPCers that eventually merged with the org. started by my pastor, L.H. Hardwick.
He was the head of the org. before Paul Russell was for several years and now Jack DeHart is.
Sherri - Jabu has pastored in Spring, TX on the outskirts of Houston forever. Not anywhere near Dallas or Plano.
CC, that was me, not Sherri that asked that. But I'll take it as a compliment. You can call me Sherri anytime! ;)
Brett,
I think your timeline for Jabu Green getting out of the UPC may be a little off. I thought he got out over the affirmation fiasco around 92.
He started an org. made up of exUPCers that eventually merged with the org. started by my pastor, L.H. Hardwick.
He was the head of the org. before Paul Russell was for several years and now Jack DeHart is.
Sherri - Jabu has pastored in Spring, TX on the outskirts of Houston forever. Not anywhere near Dallas or Plano.
If Green left post the AS ... one would surmise this was one of Elder Kilgore's regrets .... for having influenced the vote in '92 .... at GC
Brother Strange
05-20-2007, 05:38 PM
I don't know Jabbo as well as I know the rest of his family, Jim and Rita Green who are UPC pastors, and all the rest of his family who is also out of Life Tabernacle as he is also and still considers it his home church.
One day, in the mid 90s approx, I saw Jabbo coming out of Bro. Kilgore's office. We spoke briefly. He let me know that he had come to pay to his Pastor his tithes. He esteems bro. Kilgore as his Pastor though there is a great divide in doctrine and standards. There is a great deal of mutual respect between the two.
Brother Strange
05-20-2007, 05:53 PM
If Green left post the AS ... one would surmise this was one of Elder Kilgore's regrets .... for having influenced the vote in '92 .... at GC
The Great Elder has deep regrets. He has personally expressed them to me.
He only wishes that he could do it over.
Certainly, my views of the document from Hell are well known.
Rhoni
05-20-2007, 06:10 PM
As far as I can tell...Bishop Green still preaches Apostolic Doctrine and is doing well. I do agree that the AS is a document from hell. It is one of those 'weights' that scripture teaches so easily besets us;)!
Blessings, Rhoni
Brother Strange
05-20-2007, 06:21 PM
As far as I can tell...Bishop Green still preaches Apostolic Doctrine and is doing well. I do agree that the AS is a document from hell. It is one of those 'weights' that scripture teaches so easily besets us;)!
Blessings, Rhoni
I once asked Jabbo if he still preaches the Apostolic Doctrine. He said, "Well brother Strange, let me tell you that this morning we had 13 to receive the Holy Ghost evidenced by their speaking in tongues and we baptized 18 in the name of Jesus. All of this from the preaching and teaching that we do at Spring Tabernacle."
I congratuated him on a good number receiving bible salvation. Still, I have some difficulties with all of this as you might guess, since I am basically a conservative, though some of my conservative friends may think otherwise judging on some of the things that I write here. Oh Well!
I will tell you they have a cool rec center for their youth ... it's state of the art ... gaming systems ... video screens ...
I was bothered to hear Britney Spears playing on the radio ... while I was there.
Rhoni
05-20-2007, 06:31 PM
I once asked Jabbo if he still preaches the Apostolic Doctrine. He said, "Well brother Strange, let me tell you that this morning we had 13 to receive the Holy Ghost evidenced by their speaking in tongues and we baptized 18 in the name of Jesus. All of this from the preaching and teaching that we do at Spring Tabernacle."
I congratuated him on a good number receiving bible salvation. Still, I have some difficulties with all of this as you might guess, since I am basically a conservative, though some of my conservative friends may think otherwise judging on some of the things that I write here. Oh Well!
Is the conservative in you only about dress standards? I heard the message preached just as I have always heard and believed it to be? I am surprised that you, not being a UPCI preacher, would feel uncertain about an Apostolic preacher who preaches Acts 2:38. Help me to understand the point you are making?:sing
Respectfully, Sis. Rhonda
Brother Strange
05-20-2007, 06:46 PM
Is the conservative in you only about dress standards? I heard the message preached just as I have always heard and believed it to be? I am surprised that you, not being a UPCI preacher, would feel uncertain about an Apostolic preacher who preaches Acts 2:38. Help me to understand the point you are making?:sing
Respectfully, Sis. Rhonda
Rhoni,
Outward standards aside, the compromise that Jabbo has made on the NB experience bothers me. According to his more enlightened view, it is possible for someone to be saved without the full experience of Jn 3:5/Acts 2:38. He has adopted the PCI position. You should know that I will never accept that position and will not let it be thought that I considered anthing less, an option.
Luv you, Rhoni...
Rhoni,
Outward standards aside, the compromise that Jabbo has made on the NB experience bothers me. According to his more enlightened view, it is possible for someone to be saved without the full experience of Jn 3:5/Acts 2:38. He has adopted the PCI position. You should know that I will never accept that position and will not let it be thought that I considered anthing less, an option.
Luv you, Rhoni...
I know it would be impossible to convert you to the Apostolic view ... and time honored PCI view .... but I'm sure you would agree that the results are the same ...the presentation may differ ....
Brother Strange
05-20-2007, 06:55 PM
I know it would be impossible to convert you to the Apostolic view ... and time honored PCI view .... but I'm sure you would agree that the results are the same ...the presentation may differ ....
Dan,
because the PAJC had no difficulty with the end result of the PCI position, the merger was effected. No, I rejoice to see anyone and everyone receive the baptism and is baptized in the name of Jesus, regardless the pathway. But, along the pathway, if the traveler is left to believe that he can be saved without, what the UPCI calls "full salvation" in her Manual, then I have a problem with the PCI position.
Dan,
because the PAJC had no difficulty with the end result of the PCI position, the merger was effected. No, I rejoice to see anyone and everyone receive the baptism and is baptized in the name of Jesus, regardless the pathway. But, along the pathway, if the traveler is left to believe that he can be saved without, what the UPCI calls "full salvation" in her Manual, then I have a problem with the PCI position.
I've always have gotten a kick out of the term "full" salvation ... salvation is either full or it's not ....
Either way ... there's still time to convert you ... I will try while we enjoy our steaks ....
I sure wish well-reasoned and tolerant men like you would have prevailed in 1992 .... we would have avoided what will happen in Sept ...
but that's spilled milk and the balance will come ...
berkeley
05-20-2007, 07:08 PM
I am of the PAJC persuasion. But, I accept the PCI as brethren if they fulfilled Acts 2:38/John 3:5. They are just misguided and need more understanding!!
I am of the PAJC persuasion. But, I accept the PCI as brethren if they fulfilled Acts 2:38/John 3:5. They are just misguided and need more understanding!!
I am of the PCI persuasion. But, I accept the PAJC as brethren if they fulfilled Acts 2:38/John 3:5. They are just misguided and need more understanding!!
:heeheehee :heeheehee :heeheehee
I am of the PAJC persuasion. But, I accept the PCI as brethren if they fulfilled Acts 2:38/John 3:5. They are just misguided and need more understanding!!
Berk ... get a life ... and stop being a SACRAMENTALIST.
berkeley
05-20-2007, 07:14 PM
Berk ... get a life ... and stop being a SACRAMENTALIST.
Get a life... Is that how you address me?
Get a life... Is that how you address me?
uh .... yeah ... BoSox fans ... need a life.
berkeley
05-20-2007, 07:16 PM
uh .... yeah ... BoSox fans ... need a life.
Do not address me again until you humbly apologize.
Do not address me again until you humbly apologize.
whatevah ....
http://bibletalkcafe.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;attach=85;type=avatar
PLEASE LEAVE A MESSAGE.
tamor
05-20-2007, 07:18 PM
I've always have gotten a kick out of the term "full" salvation ... salvation is either full or it's not ....Either way ... there's still time to convert you ... I will try while we enjoy our steaks ....
I sure wish well-reasoned and tolerant men like you would have prevailed in 1992 .... we would have avoided what will happen in Sept ...
but that's spilled milk and the balance will come ...
Kinda like telling a little white lie. You're either lying or you're not. Or being barely pregnant. I hear that one all the time. You're either pregnant or you're not. :bubble
berkeley
05-20-2007, 07:19 PM
Kinda like telling a little white lie. You're either lying or you're not. Or being barely pregnant. I hear that one all the time. You're either pregnant or you're not. :bubble
take his side and we are on the outs!!
tamor
05-20-2007, 07:21 PM
take his side and we are on the outs!!
I'm not skeered!!
:boxing :boxing :boxing
berkeley
05-20-2007, 07:22 PM
I'm not skeered!!
:boxing :boxing :boxing
uh huh :thwak
tamor
05-20-2007, 07:24 PM
uh huh :thwak
What'cha gonna do, make a bad list like Thaddy??
:igotit
berkeley
05-20-2007, 07:26 PM
What'cha gonna do, make a bad list like Thaddy??
:igotit
it's not a bad list.. it's an "outs" list.
tamor
05-20-2007, 07:27 PM
it's not a bad list.. it's an "outs" list.
:toofunny
berkeley
05-20-2007, 07:29 PM
:toofunny
..and you're on it!!
From what I understand, it hinges on the term "full salvation."
PCI folks can agree with the fundamental doctrine statement if they think that "full salvation" does not occur until death or the rapture and they agree that everyone "should" get saved, get baptized in Jesus' Name, and receive the HGB as part of their Christian walk.
PAJC folks can agree with the fundamental doctrine statement if they think that no one is "really" or "fully" saved until they have completed the three-step formula.
The fundamental doctrine statement was amended in 1973 to add the words "for the remission of sins." The resolution to add the words was discussed and then proposed by S.G. Norris who was a three-stepper. It was seconded by W.W. Greer who was a one stepper. Bro. Greer stated it would be a problem only if the word "for" was specifically and officially interpreted. Bro. Greer said that he was asked by Nathaniel Urshan to second the motion because, as Urshan explained, it would almost certainly receive unanimous ratification. Bro. Greer then inquired as to whether or not he could continue to believe as he had always done and Bro. Urshan replied in the affirmative.
Brett Prince
05-20-2007, 08:31 PM
Brett,
I think your timeline for Jabu Green getting out of the UPC may be a little off. I thought he got out over the affirmation fiasco around 92.
He started an org. made up of exUPCers that eventually merged with the org. started by my pastor, L.H. Hardwick.
He was the head of the org. before Paul Russell was for several years and now Jack DeHart is.
Sherri - Jabu has pastored in Spring, TX on the outskirts of Houston forever. Not anywhere near Dallas or Plano.
Actually, I know that he was getting out, thinking back, WHILE I was at TBC. I graduated 1992...before the AS. He was out a little before then. I went in '89, and I do not know that he was out at that point. So, somewhere, probably between 89 and 92.
Sweet Pea
05-20-2007, 08:37 PM
Actually, I know that he was getting out, thinking back, WHILE I was at TBC. I graduated 1992...before the AS. He was out a little before then. I went in '89, and I do not know that he was out at that point. So, somewhere, probably between 89 and 92.
Actually Brett - I think that CC1 is correct. I have first hand knowledge that he didn't leave the org. until after GC in 1992 - and it was over the AS. I do know that he was leaning toward leaving - but he didn't actually leave until after GC.
Brett Prince
05-20-2007, 08:38 PM
Actually Brett - I think that CC1 is correct. I have first hand knowledge that he didn't leave the org. until after GC in 1992 - and it was over the AS. I do know that he was leaning toward leaving - but he didn't actually leave until after GC.
I am trying to remember details, but I am thinking that some of the details of Jabo and the details of Richard Heard are getting mixed together. You and CC1 are probably right.
I am trying to remember details, but I am thinking that some of the details of Jabo and the details of Richard Heard are getting mixed together. You and CC1 are probably right.
In other words we are all getting old!!! LOL!!!
Just wait until you are my age. I find myself referring to something that "happened a couple of years ago" only to think it through and realize I am thinking of something that happened ten years ago!
In other words we are all getting old!!! LOL!!!
...
You kids don't know anything about getting old.
I will be 70 before this year ends (if I'm still here).
You kids don't know anything about getting old.
I will be 70 before this year ends (if I'm still here).
Sam .. you will be here among the living ... we need ya...
I need to pay you a visit ... my friend ....
In other words we are all getting old!!! LOL!!!
Just wait until you are my age. I find myself referring to something that "happened a couple of years ago" only to think it through and realize I am thinking of something that happened ten years ago!
I can't remember what I had for dinner yesterday ....
Steve Epley
05-20-2007, 08:53 PM
FULL salvation means what???????????????????????????????
FULL salvation means what???????????????????????????????
it really happened ???.... as opposed to ?????
Steve Epley
05-20-2007, 08:55 PM
it really happened ???.... as opposed to ?????
Is there such a thing as 1/2 salvation???????
Is there such a thing as 1/2 salvation???????
nope ... unless you believe in purgatory ... but I digress ... considering you believe that Peter was the pope w/ the keys ..... :bubble
Steve Epley
05-20-2007, 08:58 PM
nope ... unless you believe in purgatory ... but I digress ... considering you believe that Peter was the pope w/ the keys ..... :bubble
Peter was NOT the Pope but he did have the keys unless Jesus is a liar.
Digging4Truth
05-20-2007, 09:33 PM
Beautiful building and large property ... a friend of mine is pastoring a Spanish speaking congregation in their old church building....
The old one or the old old one. :)
I have spent most of my life north or south of Houston so I have known of Jabo Green's church most of my life.
We lived within 20 minutes or so of the church for about 10 years but I have never attended a service there.
Steve Epley
05-20-2007, 09:36 PM
The old one or the old old one. :)
I have spent most of my life north or south of Houston so I have known of Jabo Green's church most of my life.
We lived within 20 minutes or so of the church for about 10 years but I have never attended a service there.
I detect then that you are very impressed???????????????????????
Digging4Truth
05-20-2007, 09:38 PM
I detect then that you are very impressed???????????????????????
The fact that I lived within 20 minutes of his church for 10 years and yet never graced the doors of the church gave you the impression that I was impressed?
Steve Epley
05-20-2007, 09:40 PM
The fact that I lived within 20 minutes of his church for 10 years and yet never graced the doors of the church gave you the impression that I was impressed?
That was TIC. I did get your point. :highfive
Digging4Truth
05-20-2007, 09:43 PM
That was TIC. I did get your point. :highfive
Oh okay... sorry... I didn't catch that... my bad.
Have a good night Brother Epley.
Brother Strange
05-20-2007, 11:36 PM
[QUOTE=Daniel Alicea;121318]I've always have gotten a kick out of the term "full" salvation ... salvation is either full or it's not ....
Yeah, I've always thought that term as used in the Manual is confusing at best, totally unscriptural at the worst. In other words, just plain stupid.
Either way ... there's still time to convert you ... I will try while we enjoy our steaks ....
You are a very intelligent young man, I will have to be thoroughly prayed up and refreshed in my mind, depending upon the help of the Holy Ghost if I am going to go up against you on this subject.
May the anointing upon Excalibur prevail. :D
I've been to Houston three times since you promised the steak but each time, my time has been too limited. However, if not this week, certainly the next, I am going to enjoy it most when I see you paying the bill...including the tip. :lol
I sure wish well-reasoned and tolerant men like you would have prevailed in 1992 .... we would have avoided what will happen in Sept ...
but that's spilled milk and the balance will come ...
Dan, as I sat in that conference room in Salt Lake City listening to the debate over the resolution, I failed to do as I was prompted to do by the Holy Ghost. I was prompted to walk up on the stage and take my beloved Pastor in my arms and beg him not to support this evil resolution. I started to go but I sat back down. I started to go again but again, I sat back down, each time thinking what a spectacle it would be at that very tense moment.
I failed. Whether or not it would have made any difference, I probably doubt it, but I cannot judge that. Nevertheless, I have regreted not being obedient, ever since.
That room was filled with a maddening swill of political intrigue. God was not pleased with it then and God is not pleased with it now. One Pastor once told me, that he could never sign that document. When I asked how it is that he is still not dropped, he answered that his wife signs it for him. I am not sure how that makes him any less of a hypocrite.
Brother Strange
05-20-2007, 11:44 PM
From what I understand, it hinges on the term "full salvation."
PCI folks can agree with the fundamental doctrine statement if they think that "full salvation" does not occur until death or the rapture and they agree that everyone "should" get saved, get baptized in Jesus' Name, and receive the HGB as part of their Christian walk.
PAJC folks can agree with the fundamental doctrine statement if they think that no one is "really" or "fully" saved until they have completed the three-step formula.
The fundamental doctrine statement was amended in 1973 to add the words "for the remission of sins." The resolution to add the words was discussed and then proposed by S.G. Norris who was a three-stepper. It was seconded by W.W. Greer who was a one stepper. Bro. Greer stated it would be a problem only if the word "for" was specifically and officially interpreted. Bro. Greer said that he was asked by Nathaniel Urshan to second the motion because, as Urshan explained, it would almost certainly receive unanimous ratification. Bro. Greer then inquired as to whether or not he could continue to believe as he had always done and Bro. Urshan replied in the affirmative.
Yes, I am aware of those events though I was not present at the time.
What a radical difference in Bro. Urshan's attitude in '73 and '92 when, after the adoption of the AS, he from the floor of the conference asked everyone who did not believe in the three steps to turn in their credentials. I was shocked to hear him say those words.
I HAVE ONLY ONE QUESTION .......................................
HAS DORA POSTED ON THIS THREAD YET ???????????????:heeheehee
Brother Strange
05-20-2007, 11:49 PM
I am trying to remember details, but I am thinking that some of the details of Jabo and the details of Richard Heard are getting mixed together. You and CC1 are probably right.
I saw Richard Heard in the elevator of the Hotel after the adoption of the resolution. I asked him if the adoption of it did anything for him. I forget his exact words but he let me know that his days as a member was very much limited from then on. I could see the disgust in his face. But, look what a radical turn that he has made since then. Would it not have been better had he stayed?
Yes, I am aware of those events though I was not present at the time.
What a radical difference in Bro. Urshan's attitude in '73 and '92 when, after the adoption of the AS, he from the floor of the conference asked everyone who did not believe in the three steps to turn in their credentials. I was shocked to hear him say those words.
Did N.A. really say that ....???? Wasn't his dad a proponent of light doctrine????
Brother Strange
05-20-2007, 11:53 PM
Is there such a thing as 1/2 salvation???????
No, not in the world of the three steppers.
I suppose that first you are 1/3rd saved when you repent, 2/3rd saved when you are baptized in the name of Jesus, then finally fully saved when you receive the Holy Ghost????
Naaaaah...that's not bible either is it?
DORA.... WHERE ART THOU?????
I WANT TO HEAR YOUR OPINOIN ON THIS THREAD :heeheehee
AND JUST WAIT TILL YOU HEAR DORA'S OPINION !!!! :killinme
Brother Strange
05-20-2007, 11:55 PM
Did N.A. really say that ....???? Wasn't his dad a proponent of light doctrine????
Yes, he really said it.
Yes, A.D. Urshan was a proponent of the light doctrine which gendered some "discussion" between father and son. :lol
Brother Strange
05-20-2007, 11:58 PM
The old one or the old old one. :)
I have spent most of my life north or south of Houston so I have known of Jabo Green's church most of my life.
We lived within 20 minutes or so of the church for about 10 years but I have never attended a service there.
You are obviously a very young man.
Gracious! It seems just fairly recent that N.A. Urshan came to dedicate his new building.
Brother Strange
05-20-2007, 11:59 PM
Thad,
are you flirting with Dora again?
Make up your mind, son! :D
Falla39
05-21-2007, 05:36 AM
No, not in the world of the three steppers.
I suppose that first you are 1/3rd saved when you repent, 2/3rd saved when you are baptized in the name of Jesus, then finally fully saved when you receive the Holy Ghost????
Naaaaah...that's not bible either is it?
Bro. Strange,
Could it be termed "partial birth"!
http://www.abortioninfo.net/facts/pba.shtml
If something is "partial", it is not complete! If
something is complete, is is fully "delivered".
A full-term baby is one who is fully formed,
and fully delivered. It has gone through the
full process and will be fully delivered if there
is not something done to prevent "complete"
delivery. We are complete in Him, which is the
Head of all principality and power. In a partial-
birth, according to medical terms, the body
comes out first and the head is not allowed to
come out until the life is taken away. It's life
has been taken away by someone who should
have helped it live. My brother once preached
a message on "spiritual abortion". It spoke of
a soul that is in the process of being born again,
then something/someone interferes with the
biblical process and that process is interupted.
Bro. Strange, I had never thought of the term,
partial birth until I read your words about being
1/3 saved, 2/3 saved and fully saved. Natural birth
is a process. Would not spiritual birth be a process!
Death can occur at any point in that process. Or the
forcing, or trying to make the baby be born before
the time, any number of things can happen. Man
interferring with God's process of natural or spiritual
birth could be dangerous. God set things properly in
order, His order. Man can cause things to get out of
order, but like plumbing, if out of order, it'll back up on
you and OH, MY, what a MESS!!! Behold, how great a
matter a "little fire" kindleth!
Just some thoughts from a simple senior saint!!
Blessings,
Falla39
Brother Strange
05-21-2007, 06:39 AM
Bro. Strange,
Could it be termed "partial birth"!
http://www.abortioninfo.net/facts/pba.shtml
If something is "partial", it is not complete! If
something is complete, is is fully "delivered".
A full-term baby is one who is fully formed,
and fully delivered. It has gone through the
full process and will be fully delivered if there
is not something done to prevent "complete"
delivery. We are complete in Him, which is the
Head of all principality and power. In a partial-
birth, according to medical terms, the body
comes out first and the head is not allowed to
come out until the life is taken away. It's life
has been taken away by someone who should
have helped it live. My brother once preached
a message on "spiritual abortion". It spoke of
a soul that is in the process of being born again,
then something/someone interferes with the
biblical process and that process is interupted.
Bro. Strange, I had never thought of the term,
partial birth until I read your words about being
1/3 saved, 2/3 saved and fully saved. Natural birth
is a process. Would not spiritual birth be a process!
Death can occur at any point in that process. Or the
forcing, or trying to make the baby be born before
the time, any number of things can happen. Man
interferring with God's process of natural or spiritual
birth could be dangerous. God set things properly in
order, His order. Man can cause things to get out of
order, but like plumbing, if out of order, it'll back up on
you and OH, MY, what a MESS!!! Behold, how great a
matter a "little fire" kindleth!
Just some thoughts from a simple senior saint!!
Blessings,
Falla39
Sister,
You are entirely on target, in my opinion.
Any birth, whether it be natural or spiritual is indeed a process beginning first with conception, secondly gestation and thirdly, the scene in the delivery room with the attendants.
How many spiritual conceptions have I seen aborted in my short 67 years? Far too many to tell. I've seen them aborted at every stage of gestation. I've seen births abortion in the delivery room and finally, I've seen them killed upon full birth.
Much of it was done in ignorance. Much of it done in malice.
I'm sure that you and I might be critisized about our opinions having no scripture to validate them, but our thoughts are very reasonable when we understand the scriptures in regards to the seed, (the Word of God) conception and birth.
Trouvere
05-21-2007, 06:45 AM
I remember all the wonderful mail we got during and after the affirmation
statement went into effect.I think the newsletter Bud Tingle publishes then began to show up in our mailbox.
Esther
05-21-2007, 06:54 AM
Just curious. I heard him speak today and he had many kind things to say about Life Tabernacle, and Bro. James Kilgore in particular. He shared many good things about "Finishing Strong".
Blessings, Rhoni
Bro.Kilgore used to be his pastor.
Truly Blessed
05-21-2007, 07:06 AM
I am of the PCI persuasion. But, I accept the PAJC as brethren if they fulfilled Acts 2:38/John 3:5. They are just misguided and need more understanding!!
:heeheehee :heeheehee :heeheeheeI love it!!!! :)
Steve Epley
05-21-2007, 07:10 AM
No, not in the world of the three steppers.
I suppose that first you are 1/3rd saved when you repent, 2/3rd saved when you are baptized in the name of Jesus, then finally fully saved when you receive the Holy Ghost????
Naaaaah...that's not bible either is it?
I have NEVER met one preacher who preached or believed that NOT ONE.
Truly Blessed
05-21-2007, 07:19 AM
Yes, I am aware of those events though I was not present at the time.
What a radical difference in Bro. Urshan's attitude in '73 and '92 when, after the adoption of the AS, he from the floor of the conference asked everyone who did not believe in the three steps to turn in their credentials. I was shocked to hear him say those words.I think that must have been a public stance for political purposes. When I spoke with him about leaving the UPCI in 1996 Bro. Urshan encouraged me to go ahead and sign the AS in spite of my PCI position and disagreement over some standard issues. Now with Bro. Becton it was a different attitude. If I didn't accept the PAJC position I should get out.
Steve Epley
05-21-2007, 07:20 AM
I think that must have been a public stance for political purposes. When I spoke with him about leaving the UPCI in 1996 Bro. Urshan encouraged me to go ahead and sign the AS in spite of my PCI position and disagreement over some standard issues. Now with Bro. Becton it was a different attitude. If I didn't accept the PAJC position I should get out.
I am shocked at Becton. Maybe he believed more than I have given him credit for.
IAintMovin
05-21-2007, 07:22 AM
I am shocked at Becton. Maybe he believed more than I have given him credit for.
I sure hope you are not saying that you believe that the Elder is weak on the message.
Brother Strange
05-21-2007, 07:24 AM
I have NEVER met one preacher who preached or believed that NOT ONE.
Neither have I.
But....
Is, or is not the New Birth a process?
Does the New Birth equal SALVATION?
Brother Strange
05-21-2007, 07:27 AM
I think that must have been a public stance for political purposes. When I spoke with him about leaving the UPCI in 1996 Bro. Urshan encouraged me to go ahead and sign the AS in spite of my PCI position and disagreement over some standard issues. Now with Bro. Becton it was a different attitude. If I didn't accept the PAJC position I should get out.
Brother Urshan was quite the political operative...and a very skilful one at that. I knew at least one other that he told the same thing...just sign it and send it in.
Bro. Beckton...gotta love that guy...has more strength of courage and conviction than a lot of people give him credit for. He can be so...so...so sweet but as tough as nails. His style is the proverbial iron hand in a velvet glove.
Steve Epley
05-21-2007, 07:34 AM
Brother Urshan was quite the political operative...and a very skilful one at that. I knew at least one other that he told the same thing...just sign it and send it in.
Bro. Beckton...gotta love that guy...has more strength of courage and conviction than a lot of people give him credit for. He can be so...so...so sweet but as tough as nails. His style is the proverbial iron hand in a velvet glove.
Well I just am shocked but a good shock. His church was welllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll
a lttle weak might I say.
Brother Strange
05-21-2007, 07:35 AM
Sadly, the document from hell was the beginning of the unraveling of the unity within the UPCI that we had known and greatly enjoyed there-to-fore. That unraveling has continued unto this day. I sorrow, knowing that it will continue. Good men of courage and conviction have and will take their stand as each of their stands continue to become more and more polarized.
I lament over the fact that the UPCI as we once knew it and loved it, shall never be the same beginning in 1992 in Salt Lake City. The slow drift is on having become unbound from its original moorings.
Falla39
05-21-2007, 07:36 AM
Sister,
You are entirely on target, in my opinion.
Any birth, whether it be natural or spiritual is indeed a process beginning first with conception, secondly gestation and thirdly, the scene in the delivery room with the attendants.
How many spiritual conceptions have I seen aborted in my short 67 years? Far too many to tell. I've seen them aborted at every stage of gestation. I've seen births abortion in the delivery room and finally, I've seen them killed upon full birth.
Much of it was done in ignorance. Much of it done in malice.
I'm sure that you and I might be critisized about our opinions having no scripture to validate them, but our thoughts are very reasonable when we understand the scriptures in regards to the seed, (the Word of God) conception and birth.
Bro. Strange,
Sounds like you and I are about the same age. I am 67 also and have
seen a lot of things through the years. By now we should be able to
discern some things.
I know of a man who sat under my dad's teaching of the word of God and
was seeking God and came very close to receiving the Holy Ghost. His
mother who was of another persuasion, came and visited and told him,
You do not have to speak with tongues. You are saved. He seemingly lost
interest in seeking God and although he goes to church regularly, he does
not seem to feel the need to any longer seek for the Spirit of God. There is
man's part. Sowing the seed of the word. Faith comes by hearing the word
of God and comes to the knowledge that he must be born again. He repents,
and is baptized, then God does the delivering if the process has been as it
should. The condition of the heart (parable of the sower) the ground (heart)
the seed (word of God) was sown in. Was it properly prepared! Sis. Freeman
said "fallow" ground meant ground that had been plowed, but had not been
sowed. Something to think about. We've probably all seen those who have
come into a service and suddenly they wanted to be baptized and then
maybe uttered a few words perhaps in stammering lips and claimed the Holy
Ghost, but that was the last you saw them. It makes you realize something
didn't quite click. Later it was confirmed that that person was in great need,
had a problem and was desperate for some kind of "fix" and was willing to do
anything for instant relief. Just to take the present pain away.(Like taking a
pill for pain). It wears off. It takes nine months for a child to be fully formed.
It can live at less than that, but it is risky. C-sections used to be in case of
emergencies, but the mother and doctor can do it just because she is afraid
of the pain of birthing. That is not to say some C-sections are not perfectly
legitimate. But like a lot of other things, it many times becomes a procedure
for convenience. A woman recently visited our services and when she saw
someone receiving the Holy Ghost and was very involved in this "new birth",
she later told me, "I don't believe you have to go up there and "yah, yah,
yah," like that and speak in tongues. She referrred to Corinthians and the
gifts. She confused the "birth of the Spirit" and the teaching on the gifts
some would receive after they had received the GIVER. There are those who
don't think you have to go through that "bloody process" to get into the
church. Calvary was bloody but JESUS was willing to go the distance. It
is better to go through the process. There is something about going through
the birthing process that does something for the mother and it is beneficial
for the child as well. My mother prepared me for becoming a mother (She had
eleven babies, all born at home. (I wish I could post the photo of all eleven
of us taken a few months ago, but I respect the privacy of each so much so,
I would not do it, unless I had all of their permission). Momma told me when I
asked her if it hurt. She said yes, but when you feel you can't go any further
or bear it anymore, just remember, "You're fixing to be delivered", and
suddenly it's over", "You have been delivered". She broke down and cried and
said, "All I can say, it's wonderful". I told each of our three daughters when
they were expecting their first child, "Just when you think you can go no
further, suddenly it's over. You have been delivered". Now I can understand
the process and how when we have done all we can do, God takes over and
does His part. When we truly repent (God knows) and are baptized in His
Name (the Father has the name), God will do His part. There can be no
forcing the birth. It can cause "damage or termination of the process". Let
God do His part. He can, you know!!!
Just some more thoughts based on experience and God's Word.
Blessings,
Falla39
Brother Strange
05-21-2007, 07:36 AM
Well I just am shocked but a good shock. His church was welllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll
a lttle weak might I say.
Are you talking about the church that he pastored in Tenn? Is that the one that he turned over to his son or soninlaw?
Steve Epley
05-21-2007, 07:43 AM
Are you talking about the church that he pastored in Tenn? Is that the one that he turned over to his son or soninlaw?
Yep that be the place. Then him being in Tennesee the church he pastored was never known as a new birth church but a church in the PCI vein.
Truly Blessed
05-21-2007, 07:47 AM
Well I just am shocked but a good shock. His church was welllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll
a lttle weak might I say.The way it was presented to us in the Atlantic District, Bro. Becton left WEC for a while to go to Nashville and rescue the church from liberalism.
Brother Strange
05-21-2007, 07:56 AM
Bro. Strange,
Sounds like you and I are about the same age. I am 67 also and have
seen a lot of things through the years. By now we should be able to
discern some things.
I know of a man who sat under my dad's teaching of the word of God and
was seeking God and came very close to receiving the Holy Ghost. His
mother who was of another persuasion, came and visited and told him,
You do not have to speak with tongues. You are saved. He seemingly lost
interest in seeking God and although he goes to church regularly, he does
not seem to feel the need to any longer seek for the Spirit of God. There is
man's part. Sowing the seed of the word. Faith comes by hearing the word
of God and comes to the knowledge that he must be born again. He repents,
and is baptized, then God does the delivering if the process has been as it
should. The condition of the heart (parable of the sower) the ground (heart)
the seed (word of God) was sown in. Was it properly prepared! Sis. Freeman
said "fallow" ground meant ground that had been plowed, but had not been
sowed. Something to think about. We've probably all seen those who have
come into a service and suddenly they wanted to be baptized and then
maybe uttered a few words perhaps in stammering lips and claimed the Holy
Ghost, but that was the last you saw them. It makes you realize something
didn't quite click. Later it was confirmed that that person was in great need,
had a problem and was desperate for some kind of "fix" and was willing to do
anything for instant relief. Just to take the present pain away.(Like taking a
pill for pain). It wears off. It takes nine months for a child to be fully formed.
It can live at less than that, but it is risky. C-sections used to be in case of
emergencies, but the mother and doctor can do it just because she is afraid
of the pain of birthing. That is not to say some C-sections are not perfectly
legitimate. But like a lot of other things, it many times becomes a procedure
for convenience. A woman recently visited our services and when she saw
someone receiving the Holy Ghost and was very involved in this "new birth",
she later told me, "I don't believe you have to go up there and "yah, yah,
yah," like that and speak in tongues. She referrred to Corinthians and the
gifts. She confused the "birth of the Spirit" and the teaching on the gifts
some would receive after they had received the GIVER. There are those who
don't think you have to go through that "bloody process" to get into the
church. Calvary was bloody but JESUS was willing to go the distance. It
is better to go through the process. There is something about going through
the birthing process that does something for the mother and it is beneficial
for the child as well. My mother prepared me for becoming a mother (She had
eleven babies, all born at home. (I wish I could post the photo of all eleven
of us taken a few months ago, but I respect the privacy of each so much so,
I would not do it, unless I had all of their permission). Momma told me when I
asked her if it hurt. She said yes, but when you feel you can't go any further
or bear it anymore, just remember, "You're fixing to be delivered", and
suddenly it's over", "You have been delivered". She broke down and cried and
said, "All I can say, it's wonderful". I told each of our three daughters when
they were expecting their first child, "Just when you think you can go no
further, suddenly it's over. You have been delivered". Now I can understand
the process and how when we have done all we can do, God takes over and
does His part. When we truly repent (God knows) and are baptized in His
Name (the Father has the name), God will do His part. There can be no
forcing the birth. It can cause "damage or termination of the process". Let
God do His part. He can, you know!!!
Just some more thoughts based on experience and God's Word.
Blessings,
Falla39
Wonderful, sister. Wonderful thoughts indeed. This is great teaching. Yes, the New Birth is not always so pretty. It can be messy in the birthing room. This is why we need good, trained laborers around to help the process to go as smoothly as possible.
In the instance of the mother telling her son that he was already saved and all of that other process was not needed is a typical example of the devil coming to steal the seed from the heart. A typical case of spiritual abortion.
I've also seen the Word of God (the seed) fall into the heart and sweet conception take place leaving many to think that this wonderful experience of love, intimacy and conception was the New Birth. Not so! Then others have entered into a time of gestation after having been baptized in the name of Jesus but not yet delivered. I've watched as they have been drawn back into the world, never having completely given up on their life of sin...choosing sin over the final delivery.
I've also seen others that were completly new born but became discouraged by some big mouth that came by to tell them that they did not believe that they did not think that they had really received the Holy Ghost, after witnessing some infant mistake.
On and on does both abortion and killings proceed. But, I've seen far many more killed after birth by the placing of really heavy fleshly obligations upon them as far as outward strict requirements were concerned, that they did not understand nor did they have a love for it, being far too immature to receive it. Soon, they were gone...gone...only eternity waits for them. So Sad!
Steve Epley
05-21-2007, 07:56 AM
The way it was presented to us in the Atlantic District, Bro. Becton left WEC for a while to go to Nashville and rescue the church from liberalism.
Well it didn't work and it wasn't all that great when he was there.
Brother Strange
05-21-2007, 07:59 AM
Yep that be the place. Then him being in Tennesee the church he pastored was never known as a new birth church but a church in the PCI vein.
Bro. Epley,
That church was a PCI church from the beginning. Bro. Becton did a tremedous amount of good in the time that he had it. Old influences die slowly, if ever. If you are going to judge him by a church, judge him by the super strong NB church that he began from scratch.
Steve Epley
05-21-2007, 08:05 AM
Bro. Epley,
That church was a PCI church from the beginning. Bro. Becton did a tremedous amount of good in the time that he had it. Old influences die slowly, if ever. If you are going to judge him by a church, judge him by the super strong NB church that he began from scratch.
He was there a long time and they were known as a PCI minded church even until this day unless it has changed in the last little while???? CC1 & Pianoman where are y'all am I right or wrong?
Brother Strange
05-21-2007, 08:07 AM
Neither have I.
But....
Is, or is not the New Birth a process?
Does the New Birth equal SALVATION?
Bump for Elder Epley...
Steve Epley
05-21-2007, 08:16 AM
Bump for Elder Epley...
You must be born again to be saved.
Brother Strange
05-21-2007, 08:25 AM
You must be born again to be saved.
So, if I understand your theology, you are saying that the New Birth is NOT a process? You are also saying that the New Birth does NOT equal salvation?
Am I interpreting your thoughts correctly?
Falla39
05-21-2007, 08:34 AM
Wonderful, sister. Wonderful thoughts indeed. This is great teaching. Yes, the New Birth is not always so pretty. It can be messy in the birthing room. This is why we need good, trained laborers around to help the process to go as smoothly as possible.
In the instance of the mother telling her son that he was already saved and all of that other process was not needed is a typical example of the devil coming to steal the seed from the heart. A typical case of spiritual abortion.
I've also seen the Word of God (the seed) fall into the heart and sweet conception take place leaving many to think that this wonderful experience of love, intimacy and conception was the New Birth. Not so! Then others have entered into a time of gestation after having been baptized in the name of Jesus but not yet delivered. I've watched as they have been drawn back into the world, never having completely given up on their life of sin...choosing sin over the final delivery.
I've also seen others that were completly new born but became discouraged by some big mouth that came by to tell them that they did not believe that they did not think that they had really received the Holy Ghost, after witnessing some infant mistake.
On and on does both abortion and killings proceed. But, I've seen far many more killed after birth by the placing of really heavy fleshly obligations upon them as far as outward strict requirements were concerned, that they did not understand nor did they have a love for it, being far too immature to receive it. Soon, they were gone...gone...only eternity waits for them. So Sad!
Bro. Strange,
What would be the difference in these types of abortions and killings,
than those who were imprisoned and killed by the consenting of Saul of
Tarsus! The apostle Paul said he felt God used him, (Paul considered
himself the least of the apostles) to show His Power in the change He
made in Saul/Paul's life. Being so zealous but zealously wrong. But Paul
did it in ignorance. Ignorance means you just don't know. Now when
truth is presented and we see it and for whatever reason we CHOOSE
to ignore it, that is dangerous! How many are "killing and aborting", and
think they do God's service!
I would never want to post for the sake of intentially hurting, wounding
or offending anyone. But hopefully to help someone along life's journey!
Blessings,
Falla39
Brother Strange
05-21-2007, 09:11 AM
[QUOTE]Bro. Strange,
What would be the difference in these types of abortions and killings,
than those who were imprisoned and killed by the consenting of Saul of
Tarsus! The apostle Paul said he felt God used him, (Paul considered
himself the least of the apostles) to show His Power in the change He
made in Saul/Paul's life. Being so zealous but zealously wrong. But Paul
did it in ignorance. Ignorance means you just don't know.
Indeed.
I am also guilty of having a zeal for God but not according to knowledge, as Paul mentioned. you may have read of my account of how I received a bloody nose when I was knocked to the ground by telling a much bigger boy than I that, not only is his praying Baptist mother in hell but she split hell wide open, because she had not obeyed Acts 2:38. A zeal indeed but not according to either knowledge or wisdom.
Now when
truth is presented and we see it and for whatever reason we CHOOSE
to ignore it, that is dangerous! How many are "killing and aborting", and
think they do God's service!
I would never want to post for the sake of intentially hurting, wounding
or offending anyone. But hopefully to help someone along life's journey!
Blessings,
Falla39
This would be a different scenario. If someone will willfully turn their back to the light, with full knowledge of what they are doing they are facing death and destruction. Unless they repent and walk in (toward) the light, there is neither fellowship with Jesus nor is there is a cleasing of the blood of Jesus. There is no other remedy.
That is the reason that the writer of Heb. uses the word "willfully." "...if we sin WILLFULLY after coming to the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth NO MORE sacrifice of sin."
OK, so I believe in elements of "The Light Doctrine." But, truth is truth where and how ever it may be found.
Trouvere
05-21-2007, 09:12 AM
Birth is a process.It begins with the bloody show and ends with a child in your arms.Spiritually speaking that child would have to be forming in the womb of God but the birth process is a given from beginning to end.Labour starts and finishes usually in a few hours or for some 24 hours.There is a difference in birth and formation.Jesus said new BIRTH.So we have to go with the delivery from one side of the world into the other.The person is being born again so they may have to start the knowledge process over but can be full grown in statue.It doesn't take alot of steps.Some women give birth simultaneously.
That is the thing.Jesus did not include nine months or nine steps he simply said you had to be born again of the Water and the Spirit.
Brother Strange
05-21-2007, 10:45 AM
So, if I understand your theology, you are saying that the New Birth is NOT a process? You are also saying that the New Birth does NOT equal salvation?
Am I interpreting your thoughts correctly?
Bump for Elder Epley
Rhymis
05-21-2007, 10:59 AM
Show me something in the works of God that is NOT a process.
Brett Prince
05-21-2007, 11:18 AM
Using the natural birth to explain the spiritual creates several problems.
1) When the baby is "born" it must still be cleansed.
2) Whether the baby is ever "born," we still feel it is alive and that it is murder to kill it...which would connotate being "a being in the Kingdom" but "not yet fully birthed and able to live and breathe on one's own." This plays right into the PCI idea...you need to have the Holy Ghost to walk as you should, and all these other things are important, but you are actually a saved child of God at "inception." Big one to deal with.
3) Do baby's in the womb recieve oxygen? Nutrients? Liquids? Yes. But it is not the same as after the birth. The PCIer can easily take that and produce a salvation LONG BEFORE full birth or full baptism of the Spirit.
Beard
05-21-2007, 11:25 AM
Is the woman of Revelation 12 the church? What does she birth? Has this manchild already been birthed or is this a greater glory for the church to receive in Christ?
There is a revealing of a great wonder in heaven, the woman clothed with the sun; affections out of love for those of the church that do hunger and thirst after righteousness reaching forth for the Sun of righteousness and being ultimately clothed with Christ, receiving the influx of the Word until fully pregnant; the moon in under her feet as the church walks in the light of the lunation of revelation having received the light of the seasons or mow'ed, the woman knowing the times and the seasons of God; having a crown upon her head of jewels as the jewels of the breastplate of judgment in the order of the tribes which has changed 5 times; from battle order, Jacob's order: Jacob's blessing in the last days to Moses order: (the song of Moses can then be sung), then the Revelation 7 order after being sealed due to receiving truth, and the final order in the Tabernacle church coming to full glory in Revelation 21.
The salvation process is completed in being born again as a young babe and then growing into the image of Jesus Christ, unto a perfect man. The manchild of Revelation 12 is a celestial child (that except we become as little children, we cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven which is a higher level of glory than the kingdom of God having been changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye (atom as the basic element of all matter in natural things which cannot be further divided, the last trump of truth relating to spiritual truth in perfection of the body....spiritual sense being that we have come to the basic elements in truth of the kingdom having the truth, in the striking of the spiritual eye of understanding, the singular eye as the single eye of the body of Christ being full of light, the body of Christ being full of light in the knowledge of truth); then we are changed. The body of Christ will not be changed until the church reaches this glory at the last trump, hearing the voice of Jesus in perceived truth.
We have received the earnest or downpayment of our salvation when we are born as little children in the kingdom of God receiving the Holy Ghost; this process is then repeated in the kingdom of God when the woman as the church travails in birthpangs and brings forth this manchild being caught up to God and to his throne...the church is not through receiving Christ in glory, but must rise to a higher level in Him in order to enter into the kingdom of heaven. The process is done by the Lord Jesus Himself, just as the child is formed in the woman who is pregnant who does not know how the bones grow in her womb, so is it in the body of Christ bringing forth Christ in you unto perfection; for the bride must come to the place of making herself ready without spot and blemish. We must go on unto perfection, being conformed to the image of Jesus Christ, unto this perfect man. Complacency, being at ease in Zion with a Laodicean spirit will not enter into the fulness of glory. Some believe that there is nothing else to receive in truth that affects salvation after the believer is filled with the Holy Ghost; that we do not have to achieve to the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus; that being filled with the Holy Ghost is all there is to salvation. However, there are works that must accompany in good which glorifies God in the bride coming to the full glory of Jesus Christ; a leading of the Holy Ghost into all truth that is a process until Christ be formed in us to the fullness of the measure of Jesus Christ, being conformed to his image.
The issue is what is salvation in being born again? Is it becoming a babe in Christ? Is it the church going on in the receiving of the knowledge of good and truth until birthing Christ in us? Does Jesus really expect us to be conformed to His image? Do we as the body of Christ have all that there is in the revelation of truth? What did Paul mean when he said for us as the body of Christ to not let a promise slip us lest any of us should come short of not entering into His rest? just some thoughts...
Brother Strange
05-21-2007, 11:28 AM
Using the natural birth to explain the spiritual creates several problems.
1) When the baby is "born" it must still be cleansed.
2) Whether the baby is ever "born," we still feel it is alive and that it is murder to kill it...which would connotate being "a being in the Kingdom" but "not yet fully birthed and able to live and breathe on one's own." This plays right into the PCI idea...you need to have the Holy Ghost to walk as you should, and all these other things are important, but you are actually a saved child of God at "inception." Big one to deal with.
3) Do baby's in the womb recieve oxygen? Nutrients? Liquids? Yes. But it is not the same as after the birth. The PCIer can easily take that and produce a salvation LONG BEFORE full birth or full baptism of the Spirit.
Brother Brett...
If such a comparison present such a problem, why did Jesus use that comparison? Why is sown seed used as a comparison? Why is the ground compared to a wife and the husbandman the sower of the seed?
There are so very many comparisons, I can little understand why it presents a problem.
Brother Strange
05-21-2007, 11:32 AM
Good thoughts as usual, Bro. Beard.
Salvation is a process. At any point that we fail to walk on in the light, we abort our own walk with God to perfection.
Rhoni
05-21-2007, 11:39 AM
Good thoughts as usual, Bro. Beard.
Salvation is a process. At any point that we fail to walk on in the light, we abort our own walk with God to perfection.
Thank-you everyone for some real words of wisdom and thought put into the majority of these posts.
Blessings, Rhoni
Brett Prince
05-21-2007, 11:55 AM
Brother Brett...
If such a comparison present such a problem, why did Jesus use that comparison? Why is sown seed used as a comparison? Why is the ground compared to a wife and the husbandman the sower of the seed?
There are so very many comparisons, I can little understand why it presents a problem.
I don't think you can find where Jesus when into specifics, attempting to relate each part of the birth process in the natural to the spiritual. He typed them in a more general way. I believe we should do the same. But, when we start trying to tie every piece of the process to something in Acts 2:38, that is when we run into problems. Hope that clarifies my comments.
I don't think you can find where Jesus when into specifics, attempting to relate each part of the birth process in the natural to the spiritual. He typed them in a more general way. I believe we should do the same. But, when we start trying to tie every piece of the process to something in Acts 2:38, that is when we run into problems. Hope that clarifies my comments.
John 3 ... in the Greek say's born from above .... I agree to make these type of parallels can be fallacious
Hoovie
05-21-2007, 12:04 PM
John 3 ... in the Greek say's born from above .... I agree to make these type of parallels can be fallacious
John 3:5 or 3:7?
For example ... some have made the parallel the receiving the gift of the HG as being born into life ... resurrection .... or coming out to the light ....
while baptism is a burial .... the breaking of the amniotic sac
What happens when someone receives the HG and is subsequently water baptized ....
is the baby resurrected before it's buried .... and does the baby come out in it's water sac???
John 3:5 or 3:7?
3:3 and 3:7
Hoovie
05-21-2007, 12:11 PM
For example ... some have made the parallel the receiving the gift of the HG as being born into life ... resurrection .... or coming out to the light ....
while baptism is a burial .... the breaking of the amniotic sac
What happens when someone receives the HG and is subsequently water baptized ....
is the baby resurrected before it's buried .... and does the baby come out in it's water sac???
That does complicate things.... In that case they are Barn to be wild.:drseuss
Brother Strange
05-21-2007, 12:11 PM
I don't think you can find where Jesus when into specifics, attempting to relate each part of the birth process in the natural to the spiritual. He typed them in a more general way. I believe we should do the same. But, when we start trying to tie every piece of the process to something in Acts 2:38, that is when we run into problems. Hope that clarifies my comments.
It clarifies it. Thank you.
Using the natural birth to explain the spiritual creates several problems.
1) When the baby is "born" it must still be cleansed.
There is a problem believing that there is a continual need of washing of water by the Word from birth onward?
2) Whether the baby is ever "born," we still feel it is alive and that it is murder to kill it...which would connotate being "a being in the Kingdom" but "not yet fully birthed and able to live and breathe on one's own." This plays right into the PCI idea...you need to have the Holy Ghost to walk as you should, and all these other things are important, but you are actually a saved child of God at "inception." Big one to deal with.
No problem here either as far as I am concerned brother Prince. It is impossible to be a member of the household of faith until one is actually BORN into the household. No baby. No birth. No birth certificate. No name. No inheritance. No place. No recognition.
I don't see any problem here, brother.
3) Do baby's in the womb recieve oxygen? Nutrients? Liquids? Yes. But it is not the same as after the birth. The PCIer can easily take that and produce a salvation LONG BEFORE full birth or full baptism of the Spirit.
As far as I am concerned there is no problem here either brother Prince. One's spirit can be well fed spiritually from the Word of God. This is evidenced by the many good books that I've read by Trinitarians. I love to read after Vance Havener. He has never been born again. Yet, he receives much good nutrients from the Word that he has shared in his writings.
Anyway, these are only my opinions, of course.
Luv ya, brother....
Someone really wise said about the PAJC position:
You can't commit murder [death] after inception, but before birth if this is not a living breathing soul--and yet say that the inception of a new creature has not happened before the birth canal journey.
Brother Strange
05-21-2007, 12:15 PM
Bro. Dan,
I think all would agree that every single parallel does not apply but I think most do. I've only underscored some of them.
Steve Epley
05-21-2007, 12:21 PM
Bump for Elder Epley
The new birth and salvation are one in the same. Yes salvation is a process until we hear Him say well done. That is eternal salvation. But the salvation experience is obeying Acts 2:38.
Brother Strange
05-21-2007, 12:27 PM
The new birth and salvation are one in the same. Yes salvation is a process until we hear Him say well done. That is eternal salvation. But the salvation experience is obeying Acts 2:38.
I agree.
I have been saved: That is being born of the water and of the Spirit. (yesterday)
I am being saved: I am continually walking toward the light unto the perfect day. (today)
I shall be saved: I shall be saved when I see him face to face and see His smile. (forever)
So, does that mean that you and I are only 2/3rds saved? :lol
Bro. Dan,
I think all would agree that every single parallel does not apply but I think most do. I've only underscored some of them.
there is really no parallel ... and Jesus emphasizes this ....
5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Being born of God ... language John uses in his epistle .... is a of the Spirit ... and not to be confused with natural flesh.
Brother Strange
05-21-2007, 12:29 PM
So, Elder Epley.
What are we going to do with DAN?????
Brother Strange
05-21-2007, 12:32 PM
there is really no parallel ... and Jesus emphasizes this ....
5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Being born of God ... language John uses in his epistle .... is a of the Spirit ... and not to be confused with natural flesh.
Of course it is not to be confused. That is why Nicodemus was confused.
But, there is no way to become a child of God without the process of being BORN into the household of faith by which there are many such comparisons. Do you not agree with this....?
Being a strong PCIer, I understand that you might have difficulty with it, but the Word of God has none. :lol
Steve Epley
05-21-2007, 12:35 PM
So, Elder Epley.
What are we going to do with DAN?????
NOTHING Dan needs to do something about himself.
My PAJC brethren are as confused as Nicodemus .... they have equated a work of the Holy Spirit ... a work from above ... with their 3 instant steps to salvation ....
Nicodemus had forgotten what God had promised ... THROUGH THE PROPHET .... what GOD would do ...
Our regeneration is GOD-DRIVEN ...
23And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them; and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, saith the Lord GOD, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes.
24For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
The water in this passage is sprinkled into the heart ... does this happen in water baptism ... no ..... it's done by the living waters of God's Spirit.
NOTHING Dan needs to do something about himself.
I'm praying for your deliverance from sacramentalism.
Brother Strange
05-21-2007, 12:51 PM
I'm praying for your deliverance from sacramentalism.
Bro. Dan...
What is "sacramentalism?" Is that the same as obedience. To whom is the Holy Ghost given if not by OBEDIENCE, my brother?
Bro. Dan...
What is "sacramentalism?" Is that the same as obedience. To whom is the Holy Ghost given if not by OBEDIENCE, my brother?
In Christian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian) belief and practice, a sacrament is a rite (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rite) that mediates divine grace (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_grace), constituting a sacred mystery (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_Mysteries). The root meaning of the Latin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin) word sacramentum is to "make sacred". Views concerning both what rites are sacramental, and what it means for an act to be sacramental vary among Christian denominations and traditions.
Steve Epley
05-21-2007, 12:56 PM
In Christian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian) belief and practice, a sacrament is a rite (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rite) that mediates divine grace (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_grace), constituting a sacred mystery (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_Mysteries). The root meaning of the Latin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin) word sacramentum is to "make sacred". Views concerning both what rites are sacramental, and what it means for an act to be sacramental vary among Christian denominations and traditions.
Is repentance a sacrament if not why not?????????????????????
My PAJC brethren think that PCIers are anti-obedience ... this is farthest thing from the truth ... it's a ploy to somehow marginalize a view they don't understand ...
A rite is an established, ceremonious, usually religious (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious) act .... repentance is turning to God ... it's not a ceremony ... it's a lifestyle .... and commitment.
Hoovie
05-21-2007, 01:00 PM
I'm praying for your deliverance from sacramentalism.
I don't know if I would want to give that up. Sounds prestigious!
Brother Strange
05-21-2007, 01:34 PM
A rite is an established, ceremonious, usually religious (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious) act .... repentance is turning to God ... it's not a ceremony ... it's a lifestyle .... and commitment.
Dan,
observing the sacrament in the name of Jesus in water baptism is not obedience?
Again, to whom is the Holy Ghost given?
Dan,
observing the sacrament in the name of Jesus in water baptism is not obedience?
Again, to whom is the Holy Ghost given?
[meaning of the word sacrament] ... is anti-biblical ....
I believe this word should be used to describe baptism ... baptism is an ordinance ... to BE OBEYED ....
Brother Strange
05-21-2007, 01:56 PM
a sacrament ... is not obedience .... elder ... to say that a relgious ceremony mediates God's grace ... is anti-biblical ....
I believe this word should be used to describe baptism ... baptism is an ordinance ... to BE OBEYED ....
So, if it is an ORDINANCE to be obeyed, what happened to the PCI position.
Since it is an ORDIANCE to be obeyed, again the question remains, "To whom is the Holy Ghost given?"
Further more, if it is an ORDINANCE to be obeyed, why are you calling Elder Epley a Sacramentalist?
Hmmmmmm, young man?
So, if it is an ORDINANCE to be obeyed, what happened to the PCI position.
Since it is an ORDIANCE to be obeyed, again the question remains, "To whom is the Holy Ghost given?"
Further more, if it is an ORDINANCE to be obeyed, why are you calling Elder Epley a Sacramentalist?
Hmmmmmm, young man?
1. the PCI position has never been that baptism is not to be obeyed Elder ... but rather when salvation takes place and the meaning and purpose of baptism.
2. I'm still not sure ... what you mean by your second question ... the gift of the Holy Ghost is a gift from God ... it is not a relgious rite [ceremony] that mediates God's grace .... or the meanng of the word sacrament.
3. Elder Epley is a sacramentalist ... because he like many PACJers believe that being water baptized .... applies the blood of Jesus ... and somehow thru a sacred mystery the water remits sin ... this ordinance is to be obeyed because of salvation ... not to cause it.
the issue here has nothing to do w/ obedience .... both PAJCers and PCIers believe in obedience to Acts 2:38 .... and the rest of God's Word for that matter.
1 Cor 11
2Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.
1. the PCI position has never been that baptism is not to be obeyed Elder ... but rather when salvation takes place and the meaning and purpose of baptism.
2. I'm still not sure ... what you mean by your second question ... the gift of the Holy Ghost is a gift from God ... it is not a relgious rite [ceremony] that mediates God's grace .... or the meanng of the word sacrament.
3. Elder Epley is a sacramentalist ... because he like many PACJers believe that being water baptized .... applies the blood of Jesus ... and somehow thru a sacred myster the water remits sin ... this ordinance is to be obeyed because of salvation ... not to cause it.
the issue here has nothing to do w/ obedience .... both PAJCers and PCIers believe in obedience to Acts 2:38 .... and the rest of God's Word for that matter.that is not what brother E believes.
1 Cor 11
2Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.
amen.
amen.
just curious. would they be saved if they did not obey?
mizpeh
05-21-2007, 02:09 PM
1. the PCI position has never been that baptism is not to be obeyed Elder ... but rather when salvation takes place and the meaning and purpose of baptism.
2. I'm still not sure ... what you mean by your second question ... the gift of the Holy Ghost is a gift from God ... it is not a relgious rite [ceremony] that mediates God's grace .... or the meanng of the word sacrament.
3. Elder Epley is a sacramentalist ... because he like many PACJers believe that being water baptized .... applies the blood of Jesus ... and somehow thru a sacred myster the water remits sin ... this ordinance is to be obeyed because of salvation ... not to cause it.
the issue here has nothing to do w/ obedience .... both PAJCers and PCIers believe in obedience to Acts 2:38 .... and the rest of God's Word for that matter.
Dan, I can't believe you said that! after all the times we've spoken on this subject you are unable to get it right. The water doesn't remit sins, the blood of Jesus remits sins. The Spirit applies the blood and does the remitting or the circumscision Rom 2:29, Col 2:11-12 when we are baptized.
Comprendo?
just curious. would they be saved if they did not obey?
We're back to our circular reasoning ???? ALL OF GOD'S WORD IS TO BE OBEYED .... I don't want to get into this silly game again .... if we want to discuss when our regeneration takes place I will ... but to re-hash the necessity of obedience is a no-brainer.
Dan, I can't believe you said that! after all the times we've spoken on this subject you are unable to get it right. The water doesn't remit sins, the blood of Jesus remits sins. The Spirit applies the blood and does the remitting or the circumscision Rom 2:29, Col 2:11-12 when we are baptized.
Comprendo?
You describe the meaning of a sacrament to the T ... thank you for decoding the sacred mystery ... we've also discussed these verses and shown the inconsistencies in PAJC view being that this circumcision would also need to also include being born of the Spirit .... and not just of the water.
mizpeh
05-21-2007, 02:20 PM
You describe the meaning of a sacrament to the T ... thank you ... we've also discussed these verses and shown the inconsistencies in PAJC view being that this circumcision would also need to include being born of the Spirit .... and not just of the water.
I only wanted to make you aware that the water does nothing in regard to remitting sins.
sacrament: religious sign or symbol, especially associated with Christian churches, in which a sacred or spiritual power is believed to be transmitted through material elements viewed as channels of divine grace.
If this is what you mean by sacrament then once again, Dan, you're misrepresenting what I believe because the water does nothing toward remitting sin. Would you like it if I misrepresented what you believe? How's about mental assent? or easy believism? I know you don't believe that but what if I wanted to chide you for what you believe and constantly implied or outright said, Dan teaches easy believism? You wouldn't like it would you? Guess how I feel? :club
Why would this circumcision include being born of the Spirit? I don't remember that part of the discussion.
I only wanted to make you aware that the water does nothing in regard to remitting sins.
If this is what you mean by sacrament then once again, Dan, you're misrepresenting what I believe because the water does nothing toward remitting sin. Would you like it if I misrepresented what you believe? How's about mental assent? or easy believism? I know you don't believe that but what if I wanted to chide you for what you believe and constantly implied or outright said, Dan teaches easy believism? You wouldn't like it would you? Guess how I feel? :club
Why would this circumcision include being born of the Spirit? I don't remember that part of the discussion.
The beliefs of PCIers are misrepresented with frequency here ... join the club ... I will post the link to this discussion about "circumcsion" that we had w/ DWW a little later.
If anything I am glad we've come to some type of an agreement to what a sacrament is .... and what an ordinance is.
Brother Strange
05-21-2007, 02:29 PM
1. the PCI position has never been that baptism is not to be obeyed Elder ... but rather when salvation takes place and the meaning and purpose of baptism.
2. I'm still not sure ... what you mean by your second question ... the gift of the Holy Ghost is a gift from God ... it is not a relgious rite [ceremony] that mediates God's grace .... or the meanng of the word sacrament.
3. Elder Epley is a sacramentalist ... because he like many PACJers believe that being water baptized .... applies the blood of Jesus ... and somehow thru a sacred mystery the water remits sin ... this ordinance is to be obeyed because of salvation ... not to cause it.
the issue here has nothing to do w/ obedience .... both PAJCers and PCIers believe in obedience to Acts 2:38 .... and the rest of God's Word for that matter.
Dan, you are undercutting your own theology, brother....
Maybe I can cut to the chase. What does this scripture mean to you Dan, bearing in mind that "didomi" is a verb showing a continual giving of the Holy Ghost according to one's obedience:
Act 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and [so is] also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.
No obedience to your ordinances equals NO Holy Ghost. Obedience to those ordinances and Word equals didomi to them that obey him.
Call it a sacrament or an ordinance, it is nevertheless an established mile marker in ones obedience if they expect to continue on with the Holy Ghost.
Dan, you are undercutting your own theology, brother....
Maybe I can cut to the chase. What does this scripture mean to you Dan, bearing in mind that "didomi" is a verb showing a continual giving of the Holy Ghost according to one's obedience:
Act 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and [so is] also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.
No obedience to your ordinances equals NO Holy Ghost. Obedience to those ordinances and Word equals didomi to them that obey him.
Call it a sacrament or an ordinance, it is nevertheless an established mile marker in ones obedience if they expect to continue on with the Holy Ghost.
Once again obedience is not in question .... or the continual giving of God's Spirit ....
we are discussing when our regeneration begins and the purpose, meaning and what happens at of our baptism ....
Elder,
I am also responding to why I called Elder Epley a sacramentalist ....
Subdued
05-21-2007, 02:34 PM
So do we know, yet, what's God's plan of Salvation is??
So do we know, yet, what's God's plan of Salvation is??
God's plan of salvation is Jesus Christ.
Subdued
05-21-2007, 02:36 PM
God's plan of salvation is Jesus Christ.
What must one do to be saved?
What must one do to be saved?
Depends who you ask ... :bubble
chaotic_resolve
05-21-2007, 02:40 PM
So do we know, yet, what's God's plan of Salvation is??
God's plan of salvation is Jesus Christ.
What must one do to be saved?
Depends who you ask ... :bubble
:lol Talk about avoiding a question . . . :lol
Nice.
Brother Strange
05-21-2007, 02:40 PM
Once again obedience is not in question .... or the continual giving of God's Spirit ....
we are discussing when our regeneration begins and the purpose, meaning and what happens at of our baptism ....
Actually, that was not what I was discussing.
My intent was to have you disclose your ideas in light of the Word that obedience to the those ordinances/sacraments are not an inviolable ingredient to salvation.
:lol Talk about avoiding a question . . . :lol
Nice.
No actually the first answer is to the first question ... and the second question ... will vary depending on if you're asking a PCIer or PAJCer ... nice try.
Actually, that was not what I was discussing.
My intent was to have you disclose your ideas in light of the Word that obedience to the those ordinances/sacraments are not an inviolable ingredient to salvation.
I'm glad we're on the same page ... just not on the same sentence.
Brother Strange
05-21-2007, 02:47 PM
I'm glad we're on the same page ... just not on the same sentence.
:lol
Can we have a margarita afterwards? :D
Trouvere
05-21-2007, 02:50 PM
Lets ask Jesus?
Jhn 3:1 ¶ There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
Jhn 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Jhn 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Jhn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Jhn 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Jhn 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Jhn 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
Jhn 3:9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
Jhn 3:10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
:lol
Can we have a margarita afterwards? :D
a virgin margarita ...
Reminds me of a photograph of two cousins,the Kaiser of Germany and the King of England, having a meal while their armies were slaughtering each other .... during WWI.
Lets ask Jesus?
Jhn 3:1 ¶ There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
Jhn 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Jhn 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Jhn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Jhn 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Jhn 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Jhn 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
Jhn 3:9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
Jhn 3:10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
:didimiss
Well T ... thanks for sharing that obscure passage ... that settles it.
:laffatu
Brother Strange
05-21-2007, 02:59 PM
Depends who you ask ... :bubble
Haha...:lol
Dan, you are a riot.
God probably does even know how to be saved either.
Brother Strange
05-21-2007, 03:00 PM
a virgin margarita ...
Reminds me of a photograph of two cousins,the Kaiser of Germany and the King of England, having a meal while their armies were slaughtering each other .... during WWI.
You are too inteligent for your own good. :lol
Steve Epley
05-21-2007, 03:34 PM
A rite is an established, ceremonious, usually religious (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious) act .... repentance is turning to God ... it's not a ceremony ... it's a lifestyle .... and commitment.
Baptism NOT a commitment?????????????????????????
Baptism NOT included into turning to God???????
Baptism has NOTHING to do with lifestyle????? Raised to walk into what????
Rhoni
05-21-2007, 03:35 PM
Lets ask Jesus?
Jhn 3:1 ¶ There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
Jhn 3:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
Jhn 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Jhn 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Jhn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Jhn 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Jhn 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Jhn 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
Jhn 3:9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be?
Jhn 3:10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things?
I'm glad someone around here knows what it takes to be saved~!:sing
Blessings, Rhoni
Steve Epley
05-21-2007, 03:37 PM
1. the PCI position has never been that baptism is not to be obeyed Elder ... but rather when salvation takes place and the meaning and purpose of baptism.
2. I'm still not sure ... what you mean by your second question ... the gift of the Holy Ghost is a gift from God ... it is not a relgious rite [ceremony] that mediates God's grace .... or the meanng of the word sacrament.
3. Elder Epley is a sacramentalist ... because he like many PACJers believe that being water baptized .... applies the blood of Jesus ... and somehow thru a sacred mystery the water remits sin ... this ordinance is to be obeyed because of salvation ... not to cause it.
the issue here has nothing to do w/ obedience .... both PAJCers and PCIers believe in obedience to Acts 2:38 .... and the rest of God's Word for that matter.
I have NEVER said the blood was applied in the water sir!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Sins are remitted in the water by faith through obedience in the blood.
NO mystery sins are remitted in baptism by OBEYING through faith the gosple.
Steve Epley
05-21-2007, 03:42 PM
You are too inteligent for your own good. :lol
Surely you this is in jest????????????????????????????
Real intelligence will accept the Word of God and not call Jn. 3 an obscure passage. That is ignorance not intelligence.
Mr. Rudd mocked Bishop Johnson and called him illiterate and bragged how smart he was.
Bishop Johnson said Mr. Rudd is toooooooooo smart to be saved. He knows more than God and that is tooooooo smart.
Rhoni
05-21-2007, 03:45 PM
Surely you this is in jest????????????????????????????
Real intelligence will accept the Word of God and not call Jn. 3 an obscure passage. That is ignorance not intelligence.
Mr. Rudd mocked Bishop Johnson and called him illiterate and bragged how smart he was.
Bishop Johnson said Mr. Rudd is toooooooooo smart to be saved. He knows more than God and that is tooooooo smart.
That is a uneducated excuse for being uneducated...it is so difficult for smart/educated people to be saved.:sing A bunch of hogwash...where is that smilie btw?:haloplug
Blessings, Rhoni
Steve Epley
05-21-2007, 03:48 PM
That is a uneducated excuse for being uneducated...it is so difficult for smart/educated people to be saved.:sing A bunch of hogwash...where is that smilie btw?:haloplug
Blessings, Rhoni
Education and wisdom is NOT the same. I suggest you read 1Cor. 1 & 2 and Paul was very educated. I am NOT anti-education we have saints who have gone to college and some are going.
However I will quote Marvin Hicks
"Some folks have a LLD, drive an LTD and don't have a JOB."
Rhoni
05-21-2007, 04:00 PM
Bishop Green spoke very highly of Elder Kilgore and has had him to preach many times in the past few years. I believe he said that Elder Kilgore preached his anniversary services also. I am always glad when Apostolics can agree to disagree and not condemn each other for not agreeing with them.
Blessings, Rhoni
Steve Epley
05-21-2007, 04:06 PM
Bishop Green spoke very highly of Elder Kilgore and has had him to preach many times in the past few years. I believe he said that Elder Kilgore preached his anniversary services also. I am always glad when Apostolics can agree to disagree and not condemn each other for not agreeing with them.
Blessings, Rhoni
Well I am glad and that is big hearted of you.:highfive
However some of us really do believe what we preach and are careful in what we endorse. I am NOT going to say "I believe this pastor is great and a wonderful man of God, and the next thing to the second coming if I don't believe in what the man is preaching. And when a guy leaves the necessity of the Acts 2:38 message he is condemned whether I condemn him or not!
Rhoni
05-21-2007, 04:13 PM
Well I am glad and that is big hearted of you.:highfive
However some of us really do believe what we preach and are careful in what we endorse. I am NOT going to say "I believe this pastor is great and a wonderful man of God, and the next thing to the second coming if I don't believe in what the man is preaching. And when a guy leaves the necessity of the Acts 2:38 message he is condemned whether I condemn him or not!
:bubble Whatever
Brother Strange
05-21-2007, 04:22 PM
:bubble Whatever
Sister,
Let it be kown that fat meat is greasy. :lol
Baptism NOT a commitment?????????????????????????
Baptism NOT included into turning to God???????
Baptism has NOTHING to do with lifestyle????? Raised to walk into what????
Uh ... yeah .... my answer, btw, you think you are so cleverly twisting,
is to your question to whether repentance is a sacrament ... why or why not ???
You're wagging the dog ... Elder ....
Surely you this is in jest????????????????????????????
Real intelligence will accept the Word of God and not call Jn. 3 an obscure passage. That is ignorance not intelligence.
Mr. Rudd mocked Bishop Johnson and called him illiterate and bragged how smart he was.
Bishop Johnson said Mr. Rudd is toooooooooo smart to be saved. He knows more than God and that is tooooooo smart.
Coming from probably the second most sarcastic person on this forum ... I'm OFFENDED .....
anyone who thinks they can solve this rift between the PCI and PAJC views by posting one of the central passages of the Gospel [John 3] as if they are the purveyors of some type of REVELATION .... deserves facetiousness .....
Rhoni
05-21-2007, 04:55 PM
Coming from probably the second most sarcastic person on this forum ... I'm OFFENDED .....
anyone who thinks they can solve this rift between the PCI and PAJC views by posting one of the central passages of the Gospel [John 3] as if they are the purveyors of some type of REVELATION .... deserves facetiousness .....
:club :club :club :club :drseuss
Steve Epley
05-21-2007, 05:17 PM
Coming from probably the second most sarcastic person on this forum ... I'm OFFENDED .....
anyone who thinks they can solve this rift between the PCI and PAJC views by posting one of the central passages of the Gospel [John 3] as if they are the purveyors of some type of REVELATION .... deserves facetiousness .....
Dan YOU not I said the passage was obscure. It smacks of disrespect of the Word surely you don't mean this?
Steve Epley
05-21-2007, 05:18 PM
Uh ... yeah .... my answer, btw, you think you are so cleverly twisting,
is to your question to whether repentance is a sacrament ... why or why not ???
You're wagging the dog ... Elder ....
So you have no answer??????????? As I thought. Dan why don't you just admit you do not believe baptism is essential and is works?
Dan YOU not I said the passage was obscure. It smacks of disrespect of the Word surely you don't mean this?
By obscure I mean .... like a verse in Chronicles about genealogy ....
as in ... rarely visited or read ....
So you have no answer??????????? As I thought. Dan why don't you just admit you do not believe baptism is essential and is works?
both questions about repentance and baptism were answered ... please dont' confuse our discussions about works with religious rites like sacraments .... :bubble
Steve Epley
05-21-2007, 06:07 PM
Funny story Iwas just told today. A preacher friend of mine had a couple moving to Houston for jobs he recomended Elder Green's church. The young man called the church office and got in touch with Jabo Green the young man told him his pastor recommended his church. He was glad since it is hard to find a good HOLINESS church. Pastor Green said son you have the wrong church and gave him the other Pastor Green's phone number. Just thought that was humorous.
Brother Strange
05-21-2007, 06:25 PM
Funny story Iwas just told today. A preacher friend of mine had a couple moving to Houston for jobs he recomended Elder Green's church. The young man called the church office and got in touch with Jabo Green the young man told him his pastor recommended his church. He was glad since it is hard to find a good HOLINESS church. Pastor Green said son you have the wrong church and gave him the other Pastor Green's phone number. Just thought that was humorous.
LOL...
That is funny. :lol
Jim Green, unlike his Brother Jabo is very much conservative. In fact, he is probably more conservative than I am. I don't think his wife Rita wears a ring at all.
No finer people can be found. I've known them for many years.
Steve Epley
05-21-2007, 06:27 PM
LOL...
That is funny. :lol
Jim Green, unlike his Brother Jabo is very much conservative. In fact, he is probably more conservative than I am. I don't think his wife Rita wears a ring at all.
No finer people can be found. I've known them for many years.
Evidently Jabo thought is was very funny and sent them over to where the pastor told them to go.
Brother Strange
05-21-2007, 06:36 PM
Evidently Jabo thought is was very funny and sent them over to where the pastor told them to go.
It sure is a long way from Jabo's and Jim's church, both in proximity and in standards as well. It is commendable that Jabo sent them to where they were trying to get to.
However, I probably think that they were looking of the Bro. Green in Porter...or somewhere up there. He is or was a Presbyter at one time.
Steve Epley
05-21-2007, 06:39 PM
It sure is a long way from Jabo's and Jim's church, both in proximity and in standards as well. It is commendable that Jabo sent them to where they were trying to get to.
However, I probably think that they were looking of the Bro. Green in Porter...or somewhere up there. He is or was a Presbyter at one time.
That is the church in Porter.
Funny story Iwas just told today. A preacher friend of mine had a couple moving to Houston for jobs he recomended Elder Green's church. The young man called the church office and got in touch with Jabo Green the young man told him his pastor recommended his church. He was glad since it is hard to find a good HOLINESS church. Pastor Green said son you have the wrong church and gave him the other Pastor Green's phone number. Just thought that was humorous.
LOL!!! He should have just welcomed him to town and told him directions to his church. That would have been funny.
TalkLady
05-21-2007, 08:14 PM
LOL!!! He should have just welcomed him to town and told him directions to his church. That would have been funny.
Holiness ought not to be synonomous to "dress standards"....but it is....That is the sad part about this type of discussion. SO trite to even say this. :bubble
Steve Epley
05-21-2007, 09:04 PM
LOL!!! He should have just welcomed him to town and told him directions to his church. That would have been funny.
Yes that would have been somewhat confusing to the young saints. They would be thinking why did our pastor send us here?????:highfive
Jack Shephard
05-22-2007, 08:01 AM
Holiness ought not to be synonomous to "dress standards"....but it is....That is the sad part about this type of discussion. SO trite to even say this. :bubble
You are right!
Holiness does not equal standards. Although Holiness sets a standard and standards can help protect your holiness. I am not a hardliner. I wear shorts, but I make sure that my heart is right so nothing separates me from Him.
Steve Epley
05-22-2007, 08:30 AM
You are right!
Holiness does not equal standards. Although Holiness sets a standard and standards can help protect your holiness. I am not a hardliner. I wear shorts, but I make sure that my heart is right so nothing separates me from Him.
I was in Cracker Barrel yesterday and a guy came in in shorts real short and sit not far from us and I said self this is the reason I am against shorts. Beautify America wear clothes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:drseuss
I was in Cracker Barrel yesterday and a guy came in in shorts real short and sit not far from us and I said self this is the reason I am against shorts. Beautify America wear clothes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:drseuss
LOL!!! Every once in awhile you see some poor guy who thinks it is still the mid 1970's and is wearng those short, shorts.
Praise God for Cracker Barrel !!
Steve Epley
05-22-2007, 08:41 AM
Praise God for Cracker Barrel !!
Amen and Amen. Something we can agree on!:highfive
Jack Shephard
05-22-2007, 08:52 AM
I was in Cracker Barrel yesterday and a guy came in in shorts real short and sit not far from us and I said self this is the reason I am against shorts. Beautify America wear clothes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:drseuss
Yeah you would never see me in those type shorts. I wear shorts that go to my knees and love manly not like spandex or something like that.
Yes thank God for Cracker Barrel. But Epley why do you go there? They play bluegrass music which is like country music? i can believe you would hang out with people like that..haha:heeheehee
Steve Epley
05-22-2007, 09:47 AM
Yeah you would never see me in those type shorts. I wear shorts that go to my knees and love manly not like spandex or something like that.
Yes thank God for Cracker Barrel. But Epley why do you go there? They play bluegrass music which is like country music? i can believe you would hang out with people like that..haha:heeheehee
Would you believe the corn bread and the only place in the area I can get some fried catfish and corn bread dressing besides home that is. Yes I heard ole Hank Williams and Earnest Tubbs crooning in the background. Boy is that mild compared to today or what. I was born tooooooooooooooooo late.
If your knees look like most guy's knees Keep America Beautiful cover up.:heeheehee
Felicity
05-22-2007, 10:01 AM
One of the reasons I'm looking forward to going to Tampa so much is I'll get to eat at Cracker Barrel. I love their breakfasts.
Steve Epley
05-22-2007, 10:06 AM
One of the reasons I'm looking forward to going to Tampa so much is I'll get to eat at Cracker Barrel. I love their breakfasts.
Top of the line for a country breakfast. I lived at Lebanon, Tn. for a season and I do remember the ole store that used to be on 70. Mr. Evans surely had a great idea to take country Tennessee vittles to the world. Did you know unless they have changed every store is a company store. Only managers no owners he wanted to keep the stores up to standard(boy that was a poor choice of words):highfive
Top of the line for a country breakfast. I lived at Lebanon, Tn. for a season and I do remember the ole store that used to be on 70. Mr. Evans surely had a great idea to take country Tennessee vittles to the world. Did you know unless they have changed every store is a company store. Only managers no owners he wanted to keep the stores up to standard(boy that was a poor choice of words):highfive
I love Cracker Barrell breakfasts, their chicken dumplings, and their Sunday Homestyle chicken.
One of the reasons I'm looking forward to going to Tampa so much is I'll get to eat at Cracker Barrel. I love their breakfasts.
Y'all don't have Cracker Barrel way out yonder?!
Rhoni
05-22-2007, 07:07 PM
One of the reasons I'm looking forward to going to Tampa so much is I'll get to eat at Cracker Barrel. I love their breakfasts.
Felicity,
You don't get out much do you?:sing Please go to some good restaurants while in Florida:lol
Love ya, Rhoni
...he wanted to keep the stores up to standard...
Come on now, Bro. Epley.
Don't try to make every thread about standards.
:lol :lol :lol
Scott Hutchinson
05-22-2007, 08:44 PM
Speaking of country music Ole Porter Wagoner has been a member of The Grand Ole Opry for 50 yrs. now.
tamor
05-22-2007, 08:47 PM
Come on now, Bro. Epley.
Don't try to make every thread about standards.
:lol :lol :lol
:killinme :killinme
Felicity
05-24-2007, 09:54 AM
Felicity,
You don't get out much do you?:sing Please go to some good restaurants while in Florida:lol
Love ya, RhoniLOL! Describe "good" restaurants for me. Name some. :)
Rhoni
05-24-2007, 10:03 AM
LOL! Describe "good" restaurants for me. Name some. :)
Crabby Bills
Malibu Grill
Sam Seltzer's
Carmelita's
Chipolte's
Bahama Breeze
Joe's Crab Shack
Olive Garden
Red Lobster
Outback
*Maderia Beach has wonderful fancy Seafood Restaurants
Perkins in Clearwater tends to have better food than Cracker Barrell
There is an Authenic Mexican Restaurant in Tampa by the AMC 24 cinema.
The best Shopping Mall is Citrus Park Mall off of Sheldon Road.
The best sunset is over Clearwater Beach...
The best Church is New Destiny Worship Center or Without Walls for the Charismatics;)
I hope to take you out with me Felicity and we'll do some shopping, parasailing, and eating seafood;)!
Blessings, Rhoni
P.WS. Did I say..I love Florida?
He is my pastor and a wondeful man. He has guided my life and walk with God since I was eight years old. His "Pastor " is pastor Kilgore who came and spoke at our church some months ago. I have known both of them and they are both great men of God. Bishop Green as we know him walks the walk and talks the talk. He follows God in all ways and stands firmly on Gods word.
Our church has a pretty neat webiste in case you are intrested in hearing him or his son James (The Senior Pastor Preach). You can download the messages strait onto your computer at no cost. Technology is a good thing when it comes to spreading God's word.
www.springtabernacle.org
Just in case you wanted to check it out.
"You have filled my heart with greater joy than when their grain and new wine abound."
Psalm 4 (New International Version)
Hoovie
06-28-2007, 05:51 AM
Crabby Bills
Malibu Grill
Sam Seltzer's
Carmelita's
Chipolte's
Bahama Breeze
Joe's Crab Shack
Olive Garden
Red Lobster
Outback
*Maderia Beach has wonderful fancy Seafood Restaurants
Perkins in Clearwater tends to have better food than Cracker Barrell
There is an Authenic Mexican Restaurant in Tampa by the AMC 24 cinema.
The best Shopping Mall is Citrus Park Mall off of Sheldon Road.
The best sunset is over Clearwater Beach...
The best Church is New Destiny Worship Center or Without Walls for the Charismatics;)
I hope to take you out with me Felicity and we'll do some shopping, parasailing, and eating seafood;)!
Blessings, Rhoni
P.WS. Did I say..I love Florida?
Any Amish churches?
Whole Hearted
06-28-2007, 10:25 AM
He don't believe water is wet-the sky is blue-fat meat is greasy- and make up the rest.:bubble God bless his heart.:haloplug
:highfive
Coonskinner
06-28-2007, 12:44 PM
I am shocked at Becton. Maybe he believed more than I have given him credit for.
I know and have spent some time with Brother Becton.
He is doctrinally straight as an arrow, and in his personal life, you will hardly find a more consecrated, holiness minded man.
He literally does not even know some of the most common names associated with pop culture and show business. The man's mind and thinking are totally concentrated on the Word and godly things.
C.M. Becton has impressed me personally as one of the most pure minded men I have ever met.
Coonskinner
06-28-2007, 12:48 PM
Dan, I can't believe you said that! after all the times we've spoken on this subject you are unable to get it right. The water doesn't remit sins, the blood of Jesus remits sins. The Spirit applies the blood and does the remitting or the circumscision Rom 2:29, Col 2:11-12 when we are baptized.
Comprendo?
Dan knows this.
Jack Shephard
06-28-2007, 12:48 PM
He is my pastor and a wondeful man. He has guided my life and walk with God since I was eight years old. His "Pastor " is pastor Kilgore who came and spoke at our church some months ago. I have known both of them and they are both great men of God. Bishop Green as we know him walks the walk and talks the talk. He follows God in all ways and stands firmly on Gods word.
Our church has a pretty neat webiste in case you are intrested in hearing him or his son James (The Senior Pastor Preach). You can download the messages strait onto your computer at no cost. Technology is a good thing when it comes to spreading God's word.
www.springtabernacle.org
Just in case you wanted to check it out.
"You have filled my heart with greater joy than when their grain and new wine abound."
Psalm 4 (New International Version)
TMC, I have been listening to some of the messages. They are good. Bishop Green was preaching in one of the sermons mentioned that someone told him about this thread. He made comments about it. That is funny. He made some great points when talking about it.
Coonskinner
06-28-2007, 12:51 PM
LOL...
That is funny. :lol
Jim Green, unlike his Brother Jabo is very much conservative. In fact, he is probably more conservative than I am. I don't think his wife Rita wears a ring at all.
No finer people can be found. I've known them for many years.
I used to deer hunt with Jim Green.
I would have called him a moderate--but he died some time back.
philjones
06-29-2007, 07:02 AM
He is my pastor and a wondeful man. He has guided my life and walk with God since I was eight years old. His "Pastor " is pastor Kilgore who came and spoke at our church some months ago. I have known both of them and they are both great men of God. Bishop Green as we know him walks the walk and talks the talk. He follows God in all ways and stands firmly on Gods word.
Our church has a pretty neat webiste in case you are intrested in hearing him or his son James (The Senior Pastor Preach). You can download the messages strait onto your computer at no cost. Technology is a good thing when it comes to spreading God's word.
www.springtabernacle.org
Just in case you wanted to check it out.
"You have filled my heart with greater joy than when their grain and new wine abound."
Psalm 4 (New International Version)
TMC,
Went to TBC with Danny... where is he these days? You can PM me if you prefer.
Bro-Larry
07-22-2007, 06:07 PM
Were the Apostles saved before Pentecost?
Brother Strange
07-22-2007, 06:43 PM
Of course.
Jesus said, "As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world. He that followeth me hath the light of life." Not an exact quote...but close.
Were the Apostles saved before Pentecost?
Of course they were.
Moses was saved before Pentecost, too, but if you try and follow his example and do it like he did it, you won't be, because we are a part of the New Testament Church. "A testament is of force after men are dead..."
The Church was born on the Day of Pentecost, and since then, all men must be born again if they are to be saved.
Brother Strange
07-24-2007, 06:43 AM
I used to deer hunt with Jim Green.
I would have called him a moderate--but he died some time back.
Yes, we saw Rita at Life Tab a few weeks back. We were shocked to hear that he had died. They were among our circle of friends some years ago. We sort of drifted apart in our regular visits and fellowship after he began his pastoral work.
Indeed Jim was more moderate compared to Jabbo. Jim and I were pretty much on the same page, though I may have been slightly more liberal than him on a matter or two. We've had our discussions. :D
Sandra
07-24-2007, 09:22 AM
Just curious. I heard him speak today and he had many kind things to say about Life Tabernacle, and Bro. James Kilgore in particular. He shared many good things about "Finishing Strong".
Blessings, Rhoni
A great man of GOD!!
Of course they were.
Moses was saved before Pentecost, too, but if you try and follow his example and do it like he did it, you won't be, because we are a part of the New Testament Church. "A testament is of force after men are dead..."
The Church was born on the Day of Pentecost, and since then, all men must be born again if they are to be saved.
1.Testaments are in force after men are dead????
I think you are confusing last will and testament w/ a covenant ... they are in force when there is blood .....
2,If the disciples were saved before Pentecost ... are you suggesting they did not have to speak in tongues to be saved????
1.Testaments are in force after men are dead????
I think you are confusing last will and testament w/ a covenant ... they are in force when there is blood .....
2,If the disciples were saved before Pentecost ... are you suggesting they did not have to speak in tongues to be saved????
Daniel,
Don't be coy.
You know that before Pentecost, things were different.
Daniel,
Don't be coy.
You know that before Pentecost, things were different.
No one is being coy here Amos .... Did they or didn't they NEED to speak in tongues to be saved? Your answer means a lot.
1.Testaments are in force after men are dead????
I think you are confusing last will and testament w/ a covenant ... they are in force when there is blood .....
2,If the disciples were saved before Pentecost ... are you suggesting they did not have to speak in tongues to be saved????
Hbr 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
Hbr 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
Hbr 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions [that were] under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Hbr 9:16 ¶ For where a testament [is], there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
Hbr 9:17 For a testament [is] of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
No one is being coy here Amos .... Did they or didn't they NEED to speak in tongues to be saved? Your answer means a lot.
The Holy Ghost was poured out on the Day of Pentecost.
You claim there must be a death of a man ... I simply corrected you ... the death of animal or man results in blood being spilled ... just making you think about your words ... AMOS
Covenants in the OT were not necessarily in force because a human died.
The Holy Ghost was poured out on the Day of Pentecost.
The promise that the Holy Ghost would be poured out on all flesh began on the Day of Pentecost ... Men had been filled w/ the HG prior.
Furthermore, you would have to agree that Jesus' death and resurrection saved Moses also ... No???
BTW, I'm still waiting on the disciples issue.
bbuchanan
12-03-2007, 08:58 AM
Jabo or "Uncle Jabo" as I call him is my mothers uncle and my grandmothers brother. I am heading out to his ranch on Thursday afternoon to go hunting with a few other family members (Kenny and Cody Pierce from Life Tab). It should be a great time, I really enjoy talking with him. You wanna talk about a great man he is just about as good as they come. I am very privilaged to be apart of such a loving family filled with some many great people.
Recently my family lost a wonderful man in Bishop Frank Jones. I so enjoy our family christmas get together because you could bet the he would have many great stories to tell. Sadly it will not be the same without him. A few years ago we lost another wonderful man in Jim Green. Our family is so blessed to have so many great men spreading the word of god. I am not sure if I can count numerous Pastor's or musicians we actually have. But God has been very good to our family's. We condsider ourselves a product of a great women, my great grandmother Viola Green.
Jabo or "Uncle Jabo" as I call him is my mothers uncle and my grandmothers brother. I am heading out to his ranch on Thursday afternoon to go hunting with a few other family members (Kenny and Cody Pierce from Life Tab). It should be a great time, I really enjoy talking with him. You wanna talk about a great man he is just about as good as they come. I am very privilaged to be apart of such a loving family filled with some many great people.
Recently my family lost a wonderful man in Bishop Frank Jones. I so enjoy our family christmas get together because you could bet the he would have many great stories to tell. Sadly it will not be the same without him. A few years ago we lost another wonderful man in Jim Green. Our family is so blessed to have so many great men spreading the word of god. I am not sure if I can count numerous Pastor's or musicians we actually have. But God has been very good to our family's. We condsider ourselves a product of a great women, my great grandmother Viola Green.
What is the relationship between the Green and Jones family, BB?
I concur that the Jones family has a wonderful heritage and spiritual inheritance ... Bishop Jones's granddaughter's trio at his memorial was inspiring and demonstrated immense talent.
I have tremendous respect for the preachers in the family also.
bbuchanan
12-03-2007, 09:53 AM
Daniel,
Bishop Jones' wife Joyce is my Grandmothers sister. My grandmother's maiden name was Green.
Daniel,
Bishop Jones' wife Joyce is my Grandmothers sister. My grandmother's maiden name was Green.
I had surmised that Sister Jones was the link.
BB,
What is Jabo's soteriological view?
bbuchanan
12-03-2007, 10:00 AM
I am not going to discuss someone else's theological doctrine of salvation out of respect for that them and their personal views. sorry bud!
I am not going to discuss someone else's theological doctrine of salvation out of respect for that them and their personal views. sorry bud!
I understand and respect your choice ...
I can surmise that he also shares the one-step view that I do .... based on the statement of beliefs on Spring Tabernacle's website.
What does s.T. believe about baptism?
We believe that Baptism is a way of showing others that you have entered into a relationship with Jesus Christ. It symbolizes what took place in your heart at the time of salvation:
Accepted Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior. Shared in His death and resurrection, illustrated by going under the water (dead to your old life), then rising again (new life).
Were symbolically washed clean and sins were forgiven by His death on the cross.Because Jesus instructed us to be baptized, baptism is an act of obedience and it demonstrates submission to God. We immerse at S.T. because we believe Scripture shows that Jesus modeled that for us as the way to publicly acknowledge our faith in Him.
bbuchanan
12-03-2007, 10:06 AM
that would probably be a safe assumption
Enlightened
12-03-2007, 10:30 PM
Since moving to Houston, I've visted several churches in the area. I orignally attended Bro. Gurley's church in Pearland as I really enjoyed his preaching and still believe he is one of the best preachers in Houston. But I bought a home near the north loop, which made the drive to Pearland pretty long. Plus, my wife and I decided to search for a church outside of UPC. We both grew up UPC and have familes deeply rooted, but neither of us had the same convictions about standards that our familes have. Although we attended UPC, my wife was wearing pants around the home and at work and felt hiding from our church fellowship was not what we wanted. It was keeping us from growing spiritually.
We prayed about it and decided to search for a church with the same beliefs and strong leadership. I really believed that if it was God's will that we leave UPC, that God would show me the church I was to attened. After visiting several churches and doing a LOT of research online, my wife and I wound up at Spring Tabernacle. My first service there, JG preached Acts 2:38 and there was a strong move of the HG. We haven't left :) Bishop Green is a tremendous man of God with huge desire to win souls! He wears his heart on his sleeve as they say, and his son Pastor James is just the same. The emphasis is on winning souls and teaching! I have not come across a church like that in all my years (although I am still young :) ) and I am excited to see what the lord has in store for this church.
Rhoni
12-04-2007, 04:48 AM
Since moving to Houston, I've visted several churches in the area. I orignally attended Bro. Gurley's church in Pearland as I really enjoyed his preaching and still believe he is one of the best preachers in Houston. But I bought a home near the north loop, which made the drive to Pearland pretty long. Plus, my wife and I decided to search for a church outside of UPC. We both grew up UPC and have familes deeply rooted, but neither of us had the same convictions about standards that our familes have. Although we attended UPC, my wife was wearing pants around the home and at work and felt hiding from our church fellowship was not what we wanted. It was keeping us from growing spiritually.
We prayed about it and decided to search for a church with the same beliefs and strong leadership. I really believed that if it was God's will that we leave UPC, that God would show me the church I was to attened. After visiting several churches and doing a LOT of research online, my wife and I wound up at Spring Tabernacle. My first service there, JG preached Acts 2:38 and there was a strong move of the HG. We haven't left :) Bishop Green is a tremendous man of God with huge desire to win souls! He wears his heart on his sleeve as they say, and his son Pastor James is just the same. The emphasis is on winning souls and teaching! I have not come across a church like that in all my years (although I am still young :) ) and I am excited to see what the lord has in store for this church.
Great Post. I go to a church within the same organization/ACN and am content there.
Blessings, Rhoni
Steve Epley
12-04-2007, 08:56 AM
Well look for it and there is a church to please everyone like resturants and clubs. I hope the church of MY choice is the church of HIS choice. That is the important issue to consider.
Bro-Larry
12-05-2007, 07:24 PM
Furthermore, you would have to agree that Jesus' death and resurrection saved Moses also ... No???
Everybody gets saved the same way. Starting with faith in the death burial and resurrection of Jesus. Then keep walking with him. It's all about Jesus.
Joelel
12-05-2007, 08:08 PM
:haloplug Get over it Bro. Epley. Just say what you mean...they don't abide by the rigid Apostolic dress standards of past generations. They have moved on with enlightenment but do not deter in any way from the message. We had an awesome baptismal service with 4, get baptized by immersion in Jesus Name.:sing
Blessings, Rhoni
I use to go there.He left UPC like many have.Most of the people look like a charismatic christmas tree.Being baptized in Jesus name don't save you,living according to the word does.
1 Peter 3:3: Whose adorning( Dressing) let it not be that outward adorning( Dressing) of plaiting the hair, (Interweaving and knotting of the hair) and of wearing of gold,(Expensive things) or of putting on of (expensive) apparel
1 Tim.2:9: In like manner also, that women adorn (Dress) themselves in modest (descent,not extreme) apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array
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