Apostolic Preachers

[kclee4jc]

I was wondering today who would be the most prominent modern day Apostolic Preacher. Who first pops into your mind when you think of the Apostolic Movement within the last century.

[The Matt]

My pastor. Doesn't everyone feel like that?

[Jay]

KC, you realize that you do not ask and easy question. I have a few considerations. Bro. Johnny Godair, Bro. Anthony Mangun, Bro. D.K. Bernard, Bro. Nathaniel Wilson, or perhaps Bro. Kenneth Haney. I would say that these are perhaps the most within the last few years.

Perhaps Bro. L.E. Westburg would have to be listed due to his very strong influence in Apostolic circles.

[Sam]

KC, you realize that you do not ask and easy question. I have a few considerations. Bro. Johnny Godair, Bro. Anthony Mangun, Bro. D.K. Bernard, Bro. Nathaniel Wilson, or perhaps Bro. Kenneth Haney. I would say that these are perhaps the most within the last few years.

Perhaps Bro. L.E. Westburg would have to be listed due to his very strong influence in Apostolic circles.

That would be limiting "Apostolic" to "Oneness Pentecostals"

For many years "Apostolic" meant those who believed in the gifts of the Spirit, sort of like "Charismatic" does today. Organizations and fellowships called themselves Apostolic for years before the "New Issue" came up and many of us still use the term "Apostolic" to include those who do not verbalize the name "Jesus" with or without titles such as "Lord" and/or "Christ" in the ritual of water baptism.

[kclee4jc]

That would be limiting "Apostolic" to "Oneness Pentecostals"

For many years "Apostolic" meant those who believed in the gifts of the Spirit, sort of like "Charismatic" does today. Organizations and fellowships called themselves Apostolic for years before the "New Issue" came up and many of us still use the term "Apostolic" to include those who do not verbalize the name "Jesus" with or without titles such as "Lord" and/or "Christ" in the ritual of water baptism.

sigh*

[kclee4jc]

to be "Apostolic in doctrine" or "like the Apostles in Doctrine" is to be "Oneness Pentecostal".

[Sam]

I was wondering today who would be the most prominent modern day Apostolic Preacher. Who first pops into your mind when you think of the Apostolic Movement within the last century.

"modern day Apostolic Preacher"? I would say T.D. Jakes as the first name to come to mind

"when you think of the Apostolic Movement within the last century?" Several come to mind: Charles Parham, Howard Goss, William Durham, G.T. Haywood, Aimee Semple McPherson to name some from the past. To name some more recently: I guess I would add Gordon Lindsay, John Wimber, William Branham, Kathryn Kuhlman, T.L. Osborn, Oral Roberts, and others who have had an international impact as Apostolic ministers

[kclee4jc]

:banghead

[Jay]

to be "Apostolic in doctrine" or "like the Apostles in Doctrine" is to be "Oneness Pentecostal".


Unfortunately, Sam does not view the Oneness Pentecostal/Apostolic message to be the entire truth. That is why he made that statement. I named those whose lifetime have spanned the gap between our founders and the modern day.

[aegsm76]

I would say that TD Jakes considers himself Apostolic.
And he has the pedigree to do so.
In this country, in the UPCI ranks, I would have to say Anthony Mangun.
For Independent, UC apostolics I would say Joel Holmes.

[TGBTG]

Unfortunately, Sam does not view the Oneness Pentecostal/Apostolic message to be the entire truth. That is why he made that statement. I named those whose lifetime have spanned the gap between our founders and the modern day.

Which of the oneness is entire truth? btw...Sam is as oneness as it gets...

[TGBTG]

In the spirit of this thread, I would think the preachers in this video are prominent in the oneness pentecostal world...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIioOvwaT3A

[Jermyn Davidson]

to be "Apostolic in doctrine" or "like the Apostles in Doctrine" is to be "Oneness Pentecostal".

LOL!

[TGBTG]

"modern day Apostolic Preacher"? I would say T.D. Jakes as the first name to come to mind

"when you think of the Apostolic Movement within the last century?" Several come to mind: Charles Parham, Howard Goss, William Durham, G.T. Haywood, Aimee Semple McPherson to name some from the past. To name some more recently: I guess I would add Gordon Lindsay, John Wimber, William Branham, Kathryn Kuhlman, T.L. Osborn, Oral Roberts, and others who have had an international impact as Apostolic ministers

Charles Parham - Trinitarian apostolic
Howard Goss - Trinitarian turned Oneness apostolic (Considered Trinitarians as brethren; UPC Superintendent)
William Durham - Trinitarian apostolic (influential participant to Azusa street mission)
G.T Haywood - Trinitarian turned oneness (PAW)

Gordon Lindsay - Trinitarian apostolic
William Branham - Oneness (fellowshipped too much with trinitarians though...lol)
Kathryn Kuhlman, T.L. Osborn, Oral Roberts (Trinitarians)

Sam, did I do well?...(I just did this off the top of my head)...lol

[AreYouReady?]

I was wondering today who would be the most prominent modern day Apostolic Preacher. Who first pops into your mind when you think of the Apostolic Movement within the last century.

Are we supposed to esteem one preacher higher than another preacher?

[Jay]

Are we supposed to esteem one preacher higher than another preacher?

I do not believe that he was asking for us to rank the worth of each, but rather which have made the biggest impact that are still alive. That is the way that I understood his question.

[Sam]

to be "Apostolic in doctrine" or "like the Apostles in Doctrine" is to be "Oneness Pentecostal".

That is your personal opinion and not shared by many

[AreYouReady?]

I do not believe that he was asking for us to rank the worth of each, but rather which have made the biggest impact that are still alive. That is the way that I understood his question.

Ahh....good. While I love the brotherhood and sisterhood, I stand by my signature.

[Sam]

Charles Parham - Trinitarian apostolic
Howard Goss - Trinitarian turned Oneness apostolic (Considered Trinitarians as brethren; UPC Superintendent)
William Durham - Trinitarian apostolic (influential participant to Azusa street mission)
G.T Haywood - Trinitarian turned oneness (PAW)

Gordon Lindsay - Trinitarian apostolic
William Branham - Oneness (fellowshipped too much with trinitarians though...lol)
Kathryn Kuhlman, T.L. Osborn, Oral Roberts (Trinitarians)

Sam, did I do well?...(I just did this off the top of my head)...lol

Ya done good, TGBTG. Those are some that I would consider to be quite influential in the Apostolic/Pentecostal/Holiness/Charismatic (or whatever label you give it) movement

[Sam]

for those who may not know me:
My name is James Ellis.
--I live in SW Ohio and have been in this area since spring 1957.
--I was saved/justified/born again at the age of 17 on Monday night March 28, 1955 in Union Grove, Wisconsin.
--I was baptized in the name of Jesus Christ on Thursday night October 27, 1955 at Elim Tabernacle (UPC) in Milwaukee, Wisconsin.
--I was baptized in the Holy Spirit on Sunday (Pentecost Sunday) night May 20, 1956 at Bethel Tabernacle (UPC) in Racine, Wisconsin.
--I am ordained in one of the groups which traces its origin to The Church of Jesus Christ which was chartered in 1927 by Bishop Mark Lawson. Their web site is http://thecojcint.net/index.php
--I am also ordained through my local church, The Hamilton Dream Center in Hamilton, OH. Their web site is http://www.hamiltondreamcenter.org/
--A copy of my business card, front and back is attached

[AreYouReady?]

The International Churches of Jesus Christ

One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism Eph. 4:5

as written on the website.

You Oneness alright. :) But even if you weren't , I'd still count you as a brother. ;)

[Sam]

The International Churches of Jesus Christ

One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism Eph. 4:5

as written on the website.

You Oneness alright. :) But even if you weren't , I'd still count you as a brother. ;)

I believe that Jesus Christ is the One True God.
I believe that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are all in Him.
I believe Jesus Christ is my Father/Creator and I am His child by the new birth.
I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and my Savior.
I believe Jesus Christ lives in me as the Holy Spirit.

I believe water baptism is:
an experience separate from justification/salvation/regeneration
for all believers
to be by immersion if at all practical
to be done in the name of Jesus Christ (I realize there are differences of opinion among Christians as to just what that means)

When the UPC was formed in 1945 two different organizations merged. One was the PCI (Pentecostal Church Inc.) and the other was the PAJC (Pentecostal Assemblies of Jesus Christ). Among the ministers there were differences of opinion on just how and when a person was born again. Some believed justification/salvation/regeneration happened at faith/repentance prior to and separate from water baptism and Spirit Baptism. On this forum we call them "one-steppers." Others believed justification/salvation/regeneration did not happen until after faith/repentance plus water baptism plus the Baptism in the Holy Spirit. On this forum we call them "three-steppers." The "Fundamental Doctrine Statement was written ambiguously enough to accommodate both of these positions. Actually, the first issue of the Pentecostal Herald (issued December 1945) on page 6 clearly stated the following editorial policy: "Articles on such subjects as "The New Birth," will be accepted, whether they teach that the new birth takes place before baptism in water and Spirit, or that the new birth consists of baptism of water and Spirit."

I am a "one-stepper" in the tradition of many of the old time (and current) Apostolic/Pentecostal/Charismatic/Holiness ministers

[Sam]

The International Churches of Jesus Christ

One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism Eph. 4:5

as written on the website.

You Oneness alright. :) But even if you weren't , I'd still count you as a brother. ;)

The Church of Jesus Christ was chartered in 1927 by Bishop Mark Lawson.
Over the years there have been splits, divisions, etc in that organization.
Boyd Lawson, son of Mark Lawson, resigned as Presiding Bishop of The Church of Jesus Christ on Wednesday August 13, 1975. Some time later, Boyd Lawson chartered the group which he currently chairs.

[AreYouReady?]

Are they related to any of the Lawson's in Ecru, MS?

[hometown guy]

I was wondering today who would be the most prominent modern day Apostolic Preacher. Who first pops into your mind when you think of the Apostolic Movement within the last century.

Elder Morton from Fresno, CA

[berkeley]

Elder Morton from Fresno, CA

The most prominent?

[Coady]

Georg L. Glass, Sr.
"Who is your neighbor?"

[canam]

Joel Holmes isnt UC imo, more moderate and my vote would be Larry Booker but thats my era,cant tell ya much about the 50s or 60s

[Michael The Disciple]

Without doubt David Huston from Carlisle Pa. Mark Nutting from Lyons Wisconsin. I really have not heard the big names of the day. When I try to listen they sound so much like professional preachers I cant get in.

There was a preacher in the UPC in the 60's and 70's named John Ekstat. When he taught on the Godhead it was the most magnificent, faith building teaching I have ever heard. What I have seen among Apostolics is GENERALLY that they like "hot sermons" whether there is truth in them or not!

[Jack Shephard]

I would say that TD Jakes considers himself Apostolic.
And he has the pedigree to do so.
In this country, in the UPCI ranks, I would have to say Anthony Mangun.
For Independent, UC apostolics I would say Joel Holmes.

I agree completely about Jakes and Mangun. I would also say Tudor Bismark and Jospeh Garlington are up there too though they arent on tv as much as Jakes is b

[berkeley]

since we're picking random people...

steve munsey

[Sister Alvear]

Am with the Holmes family this weekend at our school convention...We went to school together.

[kclee4jc]

Am with the Holmes family this weekend at our school convention...We went to school together.

Are you going to attend any of the Mid America Youth Conference services? The Adams invited me to ride down with them but our church is going to be in revival. I hear Matthew Tuttle is speaking.

[kclee4jc]

I am a bit disappointed in this thread.. :-/

[Michael The Disciple]

In the spirit of this thread, I would think the preachers in this video are prominent in the oneness pentecostal world...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIioOvwaT3A

None of those Preachers remind me of Peter, Paul, James or John. Dressed up in suits and ties in a formalistic setting where plenty of amens abound. Its easy to preach "hot sermons" and get amens. My prayer is for YHWH to raise up men who follow the truth wherever it leads.

[Pilgrum]

Well I just skipped to the head of the line on this one just to say, WHO CARES. This is like the disciples coming to Jesus and asking who will be the greatest in the kingdom of God.

[AreYouReady?]

None of those Preachers remind me of Peter, Paul, James or John. Dressed up in suits and ties in a formalistic setting where plenty of amens abound. Its easy to preach "hot sermons" and get amens. My prayer is for YHWH to raise up men who follow the truth wherever it leads.

Yeah. Let's be honest here.

Would the people of today even listen to men dressed in animal skins telling church members to repent and asked for honey and locust for dinner?

Would the pastors of today accept Peter telling him that silver and gold have I none, but such as I have give I thee?

If Jesus who walked this earth homeless during his ministry were to walk in the church system today teaching, how many of us would welcome him on the platform?

If a preacher walked into an Apostolic church today and turned over things he did not consider to be of God and threw it out, he'd be behind bars. :nod

We would all be quaking in fear if we witnessed a man and wife fall down dead at the feet of a powerful, Holy Ghost-filled preacher because they lied to the Holy Ghost.

Many Apostolics receive the equivalent of 39 stripes because they cut to the chase and tell what the Bible says. They do not flower it up. These are the ones who do not get any praise or are of any influence.

First century preachers were the real preachers. What happened between then and now?

Today's society would consider them right-wing extremists and deliver them to jail for preaching Christ. It's coming towards that way soon anyway. Christians should be prepared.

Sorry for the rant. Just forget what I just posted and carry on because most people will think that it is not for today's mind. They may be right.

[bbyrd009]

I am a bit disappointed in this thread.. :-/

How come?
Not to hijack, but this might be a good place to intro the concept of
"Right Pastor," which I think we might all agree has some validity...

http://www.biblenews1.com/visitors.htm

touched on there, if you click "home" and
enter "right pastor" in the site search,
other links become available.
Seems to essentially agree with...AYRs signature, imo.

[Jason B]

"modern day Apostolic Preacher"? I would say T.D. Jakes as the first name to come to mind

"when you think of the Apostolic Movement within the last century?" Several come to mind: Charles Parham, Howard Goss, William Durham, G.T. Haywood, Aimee Semple McPherson to name some from the past. To name some more recently: I guess I would add Gordon Lindsay, John Wimber, William Branham, Kathryn Kuhlman, T.L. Osborn, Oral Roberts, and others who have had an international impact as Apostolic ministers

Wow that's a quite a list....................to distance oneself from (for the most part). Not sure how Haywood would feel about being lumped in with the likes of Branham, Kuhlman, and Roberts.

[Jason B]

I was wondering today who would be the most prominent modern day Apostolic Preacher. Who first pops into your mind when you think of the Apostolic Movement within the last century.

I think its DK Bernard, not just because he is GS, but moreso because of his prominence in writing combined with his position within the movement.

[kclee4jc]

Wow that's a quite a list....................to distance oneself from (for the most part). Not sure how Haywood would feel about being lumped in with the likes of Branham, Kuhlman, and Roberts.

amen

[Sam]

Are they related to any of the Lawson's in Ecru, MS?

I don't know. Mark Lawson was part Cherokee I think and was from around the Cleveland, TN area. When I was first licensed by The Church of Jesus Christ in 1959, Mark Lawson was still alive and his son Boyd Lawson pastored a storefront church in Louisville, KY. Boyd has a sister named Sondra Bennet who signed my current credentials and currently lives in Cleveland, TN. I don't know anything about any other family.

There was a Bishop Robert Lawson who was African American and established an OP organization called The Church of Our Lord Jesus Christ as a split off the PAW in 1919.

[Sam]

I am a bit disappointed in this thread.. :-/

I did not intend to hijack it.
I guess it started when I questioned your personal definition of "Apostolic" and then included some ministers from the "older" definition of Apostolic. The term "Apostolic" has fallen among thieves who stripped it, robbed it, and left it for dead and some revisionist history now only considers those Apostolic who subscribe to one of the various definitions of "Oneness" "Jesus only" or "Mighty God in Christ" currently popular and also use of the name Jesus with or without titles such as Lord and/or Christ in the baptismal "formula".

I promise to remain quiet if the thread gets back to your narrow minded definition of "Apostolic" and includes only a few ministers selected from that group (even though some of them would not recognize or fellowship each other).

[canam]

Without doubt David Huston from Carlisle Pa. Mark Nutting from Lyons Wisconsin. I really have not heard the big names of the day. When I try to listen they sound so much like professional preachers I cant get in.

There was a preacher in the UPC in the 60's and 70's named John Ekstat. When he taught on the Godhead it was the most magnificent, faith building teaching I have ever heard. What I have seen among Apostolics is GENERALLY that they like "hot sermons" whether there is truth in them or not!

Bro Ekstadt's was on here some time ago, i forget his screen name

[aegsm76]

Joel Holmes isnt UC imo, more moderate and my vote would be Larry Booker but thats my era,cant tell ya much about the 50s or 60s

I would agree that he is not totally UC on some things, but his stance on the internet is very UC.

[Michael The Disciple]

Bro Ekstadt's was on here some time ago, i forget his screen name

You are thinking of his son. I too forget his name. His Father "John Ekstat" died in the 70's. If you ever have occasion to hear any of his teachings on the Oneness message do yourself a favor and take the time.

It changed my life!

[canam]

I would agree that he is not totally UC on some things, but his stance on the internet is very UC.

guess im not familair with that stance, never heard him say anything on it

[canam]

You are thinking of his son. I too forget his name. His Father "John Ekstat" died in the 70's. If you ever have occasion to hear any of his teachings on the Oneness message do yourself a favor and take the time.

It changed my life!

oops left out the word son, heard him when i was a teenager and have heard some of his tapes recently.i agree.

[Jay]

KC, If I was going to go by preachers who possibly had the most influence 'behind the scenes' of the Apostolic movement, I would name Bro. Westburg and Bro. Terry as being the most prominent. There are many of the preachers who were influenced by Bro. Terry's ministry that left the org at various times over the issue of holiness and seperation. This would include the Davis family (peers), Bro. Verbal Bean, Bro. Carl Ballestero, Bro. Cavananess (all AMF), Bro. Johny King, Bro. Larry Booker, Bro. Leon Frost, among many others. My own family had limited interactions with Bro. Terry. This would have made his influence felt behind the scenes.

Bro. L.E. Westburg is a well known name, and was also very influential behind the scenes. Many of the ministers that sat under or worked with him during his time as Kansas District Superintendant have also left.

Thus although both were departed at the time of the split, it could be said that they were the ones who influenced most of the departing ministers who formed the WPF.

[AreYouReady?]

Brother Ballestero's daughter was in my middle school class. I often wondered what happened to her. She was a very quiet person.

[Jay]

Brother Ballestero's daughter was in my middle school class. I often wondered what happened to her. She was a very quiet person.


Were you asking about Bro. Martyn Ballestero's daughter or Bro. Carl Ballestero's daughter, Bro. Martyn Ballestero's sister?

[Jay]

I know that Brother Carl Ballestero's daughter died at a young age from a very nasty disease. Bro. Martyn Ballestero has a blog post that briefly spoke about her.

[AreYouReady?]

Heh. I didn't know that there were more than one Ballestero families.

The one I am referring to first name is Ramona. I believe she is still alive.

Don't ask me how I remember her after all these years. I barely remember but a few in my class. Maybe it is the last name and the fact that she had the longest hair I have ever seen on another girl. She kept it either braided or pony tail.

[AreYouReady?]

That was fairly unusual when most of us were Catholic by religion.

[Jay]

Heh. I didn't know that there were more than one Ballestero families.

The one I am referring to first name is Ramona. I believe she is still alive.

Don't ask me how I remember her after all these years. I barely remember but a few in my class. Maybe it is the last name and the fact that she had the longest hair I have ever seen on another girl. She kept it either braided or pony tail.


She is now Sis. Ramona Yandris. She is the sister of Bro. Martyn Ballestero, and they are the children (along with Sis. Nila Marxer) of Bro. Carl Ballestero and his wif Connie Ballestero. She would likely have been the young lady that you remembered.

(This information was pulled from www.martynballestero.com.)

[kclee4jc]

KC, If I was going to go by preachers who possibly had the most influence 'behind the scenes' of the Apostolic movement, I would name Bro. Westburg and Bro. Terry as being the most prominent. There are many of the preachers who were influenced by Bro. Terry's ministry that left the org at various times over the issue of holiness and seperation. This would include the Davis family (peers), Bro. Verbal Bean, Bro. Carl Ballestero, Bro. Cavananess (all AMF), Bro. Johny King, Bro. Larry Booker, Bro. Leon Frost, among many others. My own family had limited interactions with Bro. Terry. This would have made his influence felt behind the scenes.

Bro. L.E. Westburg is a well known name, and was also very influential behind the scenes. Many of the ministers that sat under or worked with him during his time as Kansas District Superintendant have also left.

Thus although both were departed at the time of the split, it could be said that they were the ones who influenced most of the departing ministers who formed the WPF.


I have heard both these names mentioned before in conferences but have never heard any of their messages. I'll have to try to look them up and get some messages.

[Steve Epley]

Prominence would depend upon a person's circle of fellowship really. By the way all Trinitarians are as lost as two boys kissing. NONE of them are Apostolic. Just saying.

[bbyrd009]

Rather than pick that scab, lol; do Apostolics have a conception of "Right Pastor?" I have only just read of this, but it seems to resonate.Prominence would depend upon a person's circle of fellowship really. By the way all Trinitarians are as lost as two boys kissing. NONE of them are Apostolic. Just saying.

[jdtoday]

I would say that TD Jakes considers himself Apostolic.

If he does, then he doesn't use the word "apostolic" in the way most oneness pentecostals use it. T.D. Jakes does NOT consider himself to be oneness (he hasn't for quite a few years now). Look at the following links.

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2000/februaryweb-only/13.0b.html

http://blog.christianitytoday.com/ctliveblog/archives/2012/01/td_jakes_embrac.html

[AreYouReady?]

She is now Sis. Ramona Yandris. She is the sister of Bro. Martyn Ballestero, and they are the children (along with Sis. Nila Marxer) of Bro. Carl Ballestero and his wif Connie Ballestero. She would likely have been the young lady that you remembered.

(This information was pulled from www.martynballestero.com.)

Thanks Jay.

[Sister Alvear]

There are many wonderful preachers in Pentecost...Much depends on the type preaching we like.

[Jay]

I have heard both these names mentioned before in conferences but have never heard any of their messages. I'll have to try to look them up and get some messages.

Dad has some messages preached by Bro. Westburg, but I have never heard Bro. Terry preach. I have heard that he was very good.


Thanks Jay.

You are welcome.

[seekerman]

It would be interesting to list the Apostolic preachers in the 1800s. Anyone want to take a shot at it?

[canam]

It would be interesting to list the Apostolic preachers in the 1800s. Anyone want to take a shot at it?

Bro Epley ? :)

[CC1]

I don't know. Mark Lawson was part Cherokee I think and was from around the Cleveland, TN area. When I was first licensed by The Church of Jesus Christ in 1959, Mark Lawson was still alive and his son Boyd Lawson pastored a storefront church in Louisville, KY. Boyd has a sister named Sondra Bennet who signed my current credentials and currently lives in Cleveland, TN. I don't know anything about any other family.

There was a Bishop Robert Lawson who was African American and established an OP organization called The Church of Our Lord Jesus Christ as a split off the PAW in 1919.

Wow! Sam, you must be older than dirt. I was born in 1959 and I am old!!!!:happydance

[crakjak]

I would say that TD Jakes considers himself Apostolic.
And he has the pedigree to do so.
In this country, in the UPCI ranks, I would have to say Anthony Mangun.
For Independent, UC apostolics I would say Joel Holmes.

What happened to TF Tenney?

[crakjak]

In the spirit of this thread, I would think the preachers in this video are prominent in the oneness pentecostal world...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIioOvwaT3A

Yep.

[Sam]

Wow! Sam, you must be older than dirt. I was born in 1959 and I am old!!!!:happydance

I was born December 6, 1937.
In August/September 1959 I went to a Church of Jesus Christ Convention in Charleston, WV. There I met a man, Bob Winstead, who was pastoring the Church of Jesus Christ in Eskdale, Kanawha County WV somewhere outside of Charleston. I had previously met him in Niles, Michigan some years before at a convention of The Church of Jesus Christ, Pentecostal Faith. I took out license with The Church of Jesus Christ while I was there in Charleston and Bob Winstead was one who signed my application. Bishop Mark Lawson was still alive back then. I preached for Bob Winstead one night while I was there. After I got back home I had second thoughts and sent the license in to Bishop Lawson because I was attending a UPC church and doing some teaching and preaching there and did not want to get into any trouble with my pastor (although I was preaching around at non-UPC churches at the time, even a couple Church of Jesus Christ churches. Actually, my wife's grandfather who married us was a preacher with The Church of Jesus Christ.

Later I did take out license with The Church of Jesus Christ, Pentecostal Faith.Bishop G.R. Brock in Indianapolis was the Presiding Bishop. I let that license lapse when we started going to an ALJC church in the Cincinnati area. Later I was licensed with the ALJC.

Speaking of old...... the picture of me and my wife in the attached montage was taken in the fall of 1959 at The Church of Jesus Christ Pentecostal Faith in Indianapolis, Indiana when I went and preached for Bishop Brock.

Later,

[bbyrd009]

I'm curious who won? At least this didn't seem to degenerate into an Apostolic argument. All depends upon seeking your "Right Pastor," imo, but I've just been exposed to this term. The preacher you like might just be entertaining you?There are many wonderful preachers in Pentecost...Much depends on the type preaching we like.

[seekerman]

I was born December 6, 1937.
In August/September 1959 I went to a Church of Jesus Christ Convention in Charleston, WV. There I met a man, Bob Winstead, who was pastoring the Church of Jesus Christ in Eskdale, Kanawha County WV somewhere outside of Charleston. I had previously met him in Niles, Michigan some years before at a convention of The Church of Jesus Christ, Pentecostal Faith. I took out license with The Church of Jesus Christ while I was there in Charleston and Bob Winstead was one who signed my application. Bishop Mark Lawson was still alive back then. I preached for Bob Winstead one night while I was there. After I got back home I had second thoughts and sent the license in to Bishop Lawson because I was attending a UPC church and doing some teaching and preaching there and did not want to get into any trouble with my pastor (although I was preaching around at non-UPC churches at the time, even a couple Church of Jesus Christ churches. Actually, my wife's grandfather who married us was a preacher with The Church of Jesus Christ.

Later I did take out license with The Church of Jesus Christ, Pentecostal Faith.Bishop G.R. Brock in Indianapolis was the Presiding Bishop. I let that license lapse when we started going to an ALJC church in the Cincinnati area. Later I was licensed with the ALJC.

Speaking of old...... the picture of me and my wife in the attached montage was taken in the fall of 1959 at The Church of Jesus Christ Pentecostal Faith in Indianapolis, Indiana when I went and preached for Bishop Brock.

Later,

Interesting photos, Sam, thanks for posting them. Especially the one of the first baptism in Jesus name east of the Mississippi.....in 1915.

[seekerman]

It would be interesting to list the Apostolic preachers in the 1800s. Anyone want to take a shot at it?

Anyone???

[Sarah]

If TD Jakes is an Apostolic preacher, I would have to say he is the most prominent one today.

Bro TF Tenney and Bro Lee Stoneking are prominent in the UPCI....and have been for years. Bro Tenney, in that he's not afraid to 'step outside the box'...preaching on tv, in other denominal churches, etc. And no matter what you might think of LS, absolutely no one can fill up a house quicker than he can!

[AreYouReady?]

I was born December 6, 1937.
In August/September 1959 I went to a Church of Jesus Christ Convention in Charleston, WV. There I met a man, Bob Winstead, who was pastoring the Church of Jesus Christ in Eskdale, Kanawha County WV somewhere outside of Charleston. I had previously met him in Niles, Michigan some years before at a convention of The Church of Jesus Christ, Pentecostal Faith. I took out license with The Church of Jesus Christ while I was there in Charleston and Bob Winstead was one who signed my application. Bishop Mark Lawson was still alive back then. I preached for Bob Winstead one night while I was there. After I got back home I had second thoughts and sent the license in to Bishop Lawson because I was attending a UPC church and doing some teaching and preaching there and did not want to get into any trouble with my pastor (although I was preaching around at non-UPC churches at the time, even a couple Church of Jesus Christ churches. Actually, my wife's grandfather who married us was a preacher with The Church of Jesus Christ.

Later I did take out license with The Church of Jesus Christ, Pentecostal Faith.Bishop G.R. Brock in Indianapolis was the Presiding Bishop. I let that license lapse when we started going to an ALJC church in the Cincinnati area. Later I was licensed with the ALJC.

Speaking of old...... the picture of me and my wife in the attached montage was taken in the fall of 1959 at The Church of Jesus Christ Pentecostal Faith in Indianapolis, Indiana when I went and preached for Bishop Brock.

Later,

Niles, Michigan eh?

You were in my old stomping grounds. I consider Niles parts of my stomping grounds because it is only 7 miles from South Bend and we used to go there frequently when we were teens. Why? I don't know except maybe to say we got out of South Bend.

Were there very many Apostolic churches in the area? Funny that I don't know the place I spent for 19 years. Catholic was all I knew and there were RCC churches on every corner ...seems like anyway.

[Michael Phelps]

Niles, Michigan eh?

You were in my old stomping grounds. I consider Niles parts of my stomping grounds because it is only 7 miles from South Bend and we used to go there frequently when we were teens. Why? I don't know except maybe to say we got out of South Bend.

Were there very many Apostolic churches in the area? Funny that I don't know the place I spent for 19 years. Catholic was all I knew and there were RCC churches on every corner ...seems like anyway.

I don't think there have ever been a LOT of Apostolic churches in Niles. One of my old Bible School buddies, John Colegrove, pastored there for a while, and I think the Deeds' had an outreach there.

Other than that, I'm not aware of any in my lifetime.

[Sam]

Interesting photos, Sam, thanks for posting them. Especially the one of the first baptism in Jesus name east of the Mississippi.....in 1915.

That picture (not very good quality) is usually spoken of as the first baptism in Jesus name east of the Mississippi. Actually, A.D. Urshan began baptizing in "the name of the Lord Jesus Christ" and had Acts 2:38 painted above his baptistry in Chicago in 1910 although he himself was not rebaptized until 1915. He thought the "new issue" and "rebaptism" was a trick of satan to divide God's people. L.R. Ooton also "saw" baptism in Jesus name in Indiana maybe around 1915.

This is an account from one of L.R. Ooton's books about his ministry. I'm not sure if it is from “God’s Time Piece” which has a copyright date of 1967 or “The Except Without Exception” which has a copyright of 1974. I pieced together accounts from these two books and don't remember what came from which book.

He speaks about this incident which occurred in (I think" Medora, Indiana a couple of years after the 1913 flood.

"..In the midst of the baptismal service a marvelous event took place. As I was helping the people in and out of the water I heard a voice from heaven saying, “My brother, I baptize you in the name of Jesus Christ.” While I yet marveled at what I had heard, for I had never heard of such a thing before, Brother Turner came to me on the bank of the stream, inquiring, “Brother Ooton, what was that I heard today? The Lord spoke to you. What did He say?” When I told him what I had heard, he doubted that the Lord had said it. “But, Brother Ooton, there is only one way in which to be baptized, and that is in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.” Broken in spirit, he continued, “You have been instrumental in leading me into the light of the Apostolic faith, now please don’t be misled by some strange spirit.” I assured him that I had never heard or read about baptism in Jesus name before. “So come now, let us return to the house and search the Scriptures and see for ourselves.” Turning to the Scriptures, we immediately found where the Apostles baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. (Acts 2:38; 10:48; 19:5) Thrilled and inspired by this heavenly visitation, we rejoiced greatly and read the Scriptures all night long. Some time later the light of baptism in Jesus name was brought from the Pacific coast to Indianapolis, Indiana by Brother Glen Cook. Hundreds of people accepted the message and Brother Cook returned to the west coast."

These are some words from and about A.D. Urshan. This info is from an autobiography which may still be available from the UPC and from a series of magazines from 1946.

In 1910 he came to the conclusion that, "The Lord Jesus Christ is the One Proper Name of the whole Deity for this Gospel dispensation because in Him, Jesus Christ our Lord, all the fullness of the Godhead dwells and to Him all the power in Heaven and earth was given" He goes on to say, "...This was indeed a wonderful revelation of the Trinity in Christ....seeing the great value of the baptism invested in faith in the One Name of the triune God..." He goes on to say that he had a tract published about this revelation, that he had Acts 2:38 painted above the baptistry tank and that he began to baptize new converts "into the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ which is the One Name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost." This is on page 10 of a magazine titled The Witness of God, edition no. 3 of 1946. He said this happened in 1910 while pastoring an assembly at Sheffield and Montana Street in Chicago, Illinois.

It is interesting that although he started baptizing new converts this way, he did not practice rebaptism. He later went back to Persia and then to Russia. In 1915 while preaching in Russia, he hoped no one would want to be water baptized because he knew it had become a controversy in the U.S. and he did not want to join in with either side of the issue. Here is how he describes his feelings at that time. “When conducting that meeting in Russia, seeing new converts being added, we prayed and wished that no one would ask us to baptize them. The reason was because we were between the two opinions regarding formula used on the converts.” He goes on to say, “We had heard of a division among God’s Pentecostal people in America over the usage of two different formulas and since we loved all these people, we did not want to take a definite step with or against either school.” He did decide not to do any baptizing unless some one specifically requested baptism using the name of Jesus. A new convert came to him, pointing to Acts 8:16 in a Bible, and asked for baptism according to this verse. Several days later they went out into the woods to a river, cleared away two feet of snow, broke a hole though the ice and baptized several people. There were more converts and a few days later more wanted to be baptized. Bro. Urshan preached on Isaiah 9:6 about "the sonship of Jesus and the Divine Fatherhood in Him." He then talked about baptism in Jesus' Name. As a result some who had been previously baptized requested rebaptism.

Here is what Bro. Urshan wrote about his attitude toward rebaptism.
"I objected to such a thing then. I had come to the conclusion to baptize the new repenting souls in Jesus Christ's name, but never those who were already baptized. In spite of my personal feeling on the subject, I was almost begged to baptize some who once were already baptized. both in water and in the Spirit. I tried to discourage it, and told the folks it was not necessary at all and that it would bring trouble and division among them. I went as far as to tell them of the havoc that very thing had created in America and then I plainly stated that i would not rebaptize them.... I prayed hard against rebaptism and branded it to be a trick of the devil to destroy that good revival." When they insisted on being rebaptized, he told them to go ahead and rebaptize one another. He told them that he himself had not been rebaptized and wanted to return to America and discuss it more fully with people there. Finally they prevailed upon him and he asked an elderly Spirit filled Russian to rebaptize him and then he baptized about 75 people in Jesus' Name. This is from pages 10 and 11 of The Witness of God, August 1946.

Even though he had now been rebaptized, when Bro. Urshan returned to the U.S. he continued to fellowship and preach among those who practiced both types of baptism. Later, he was forced to choose sides and he sided with the "New Issue" or Jesus' name baptism.

[TGBTG]

That picture (not very good quality) is usually spoken of as the first baptism in Jesus name east of the Mississippi. Actually, A.D. Urshan began baptizing in "the name of the Lord Jesus Christ" and had Acts 2:38 painted above his baptistry in Chicago in 1910 although he himself was not rebaptized until 1915. He thought the "new issue" and "rebaptism" was a trick of satan to divide God's people. L.R. Ooton also "saw" baptism in Jesus name in Indiana maybe around 1915.

This is an account from one of L.R. Ooton's books about his ministry. I'm not sure if it is from “God’s Time Piece” which has a copyright date of 1967 or “The Except Without Exception” which has a copyright of 1974. I pieced together accounts from these two books and don't remember what came from which book.

He speaks about this incident which occurred in (I think" Medora, Indiana a couple of years after the 1913 flood.

"..In the midst of the baptismal service a marvelous event took place. As I was helping the people in and out of the water I heard a voice from heaven saying, “My brother, I baptize you in the name of Jesus Christ.” While I yet marveled at what I had heard, for I had never heard of such a thing before, Brother Turner came to me on the bank of the stream, inquiring, “Brother Ooton, what was that I heard today? The Lord spoke to you. What did He say?” When I told him what I had heard, he doubted that the Lord had said it. “But, Brother Ooton, there is only one way in which to be baptized, and that is in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.” Broken in spirit, he continued, “You have been instrumental in leading me into the light of the Apostolic faith, now please don’t be misled by some strange spirit.” I assured him that I had never heard or read about baptism in Jesus name before. “So come now, let us return to the house and search the Scriptures and see for ourselves.” Turning to the Scriptures, we immediately found where the Apostles baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. (Acts 2:38; 10:48; 19:5) Thrilled and inspired by this heavenly visitation, we rejoiced greatly and read the Scriptures all night long. Some time later the light of baptism in Jesus name was brought from the Pacific coast to Indianapolis, Indiana by Brother Glen Cook. Hundreds of people accepted the message and Brother Cook returned to the west coast."

These are some words from and about A.D. Urshan. This info is from an autobiography which may still be available from the UPC and from a series of magazines from 1946.

In 1910 he came to the conclusion that, "The Lord Jesus Christ is the One Proper Name of the whole Deity for this Gospel dispensation because in Him, Jesus Christ our Lord, all the fullness of the Godhead dwells and to Him all the power in Heaven and earth was given" He goes on to say, "...This was indeed a wonderful revelation of the Trinity in Christ....seeing the great value of the baptism invested in faith in the One Name of the triune God..." He goes on to say that he had a tract published about this revelation, that he had Acts 2:38 painted above the baptistry tank and that he began to baptize new converts "into the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ which is the One Name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost." This is on page 10 of a magazine titled The Witness of God, edition no. 3 of 1946. He said this happened in 1910 while pastoring an assembly at Sheffield and Montana Street in Chicago, Illinois.

It is interesting that although he started baptizing new converts this way, he did not practice rebaptism. He later went back to Persia and then to Russia. In 1915 while preaching in Russia, he hoped no one would want to be water baptized because he knew it had become a controversy in the U.S. and he did not want to join in with either side of the issue. Here is how he describes his feelings at that time. “When conducting that meeting in Russia, seeing new converts being added, we prayed and wished that no one would ask us to baptize them. The reason was because we were between the two opinions regarding formula used on the converts.” He goes on to say, “We had heard of a division among God’s Pentecostal people in America over the usage of two different formulas and since we loved all these people, we did not want to take a definite step with or against either school.” He did decide not to do any baptizing unless some one specifically requested baptism using the name of Jesus. A new convert came to him, pointing to Acts 8:16 in a Bible, and asked for baptism according to this verse. Several days later they went out into the woods to a river, cleared away two feet of snow, broke a hole though the ice and baptized several people. There were more converts and a few days later more wanted to be baptized. Bro. Urshan preached on Isaiah 9:6 about "the sonship of Jesus and the Divine Fatherhood in Him." He then talked about baptism in Jesus' Name. As a result some who had been previously baptized requested rebaptism.

Here is what Bro. Urshan wrote about his attitude toward rebaptism.
"I objected to such a thing then. I had come to the conclusion to baptize the new repenting souls in Jesus Christ's name, but never those who were already baptized. In spite of my personal feeling on the subject, I was almost begged to baptize some who once were already baptized. both in water and in the Spirit. I tried to discourage it, and told the folks it was not necessary at all and that it would bring trouble and division among them. I went as far as to tell them of the havoc that very thing had created in America and then I plainly stated that i would not rebaptize them.... I prayed hard against rebaptism and branded it to be a trick of the devil to destroy that good revival." When they insisted on being rebaptized, he told them to go ahead and rebaptize one another. He told them that he himself had not been rebaptized and wanted to return to America and discuss it more fully with people there. Finally they prevailed upon him and he asked an elderly Spirit filled Russian to rebaptize him and then he baptized about 75 people in Jesus' Name. This is from pages 10 and 11 of The Witness of God, August 1946.

Even though he had now been rebaptized, when Bro. Urshan returned to the U.S. he continued to fellowship and preach among those who practiced both types of baptism. Later, he was forced to choose sides and he sided with the "New Issue" or Jesus' name baptism.

Insightful...

[Sam]

Niles, Michigan eh?

You were in my old stomping grounds. I consider Niles parts of my stomping grounds because it is only 7 miles from South Bend and we used to go there frequently when we were teens. Why? I don't know except maybe to say we got out of South Bend.

Were there very many Apostolic churches in the area? Funny that I don't know the place I spent for 19 years. Catholic was all I knew and there were RCC churches on every corner ...seems like anyway.

I don't really know much about Niles, Michigan.I was there once for a convention of The Church of Jesus Christ in 1959 (might have been 1958). The church was (if I remember correctly) made of cinder block and painted white or it may have been stucco. It was at 1335 (don't remember if it was East or West or no designation) Fort Street. It was called The Church of Jesus Christ. At one time the pastor was named Johnson. After his death his wife took over as pastor. There was also a Bishop Steinbarger associated with that church. I'm not sure of the spelling for Johnson or Steinbarger.

[AreYouReady?]

He did decide not to do any baptizing unless some one specifically requested baptism using the name of Jesus. A new convert came to him, pointing to Acts 8:16 in a Bible, and asked for baptism according to this verse. Several days later they went out into the woods to a river, cleared away two feet of snow, broke a hole though the ice and baptized several people. There were more converts and a few days later more wanted to be baptized. Bro. Urshan preached on Isaiah 9:6 about "the sonship of Jesus and the Divine Fatherhood in Him." He then talked about baptism in Jesus' Name. As a result some who had been previously baptized requested rebaptism.

Just some random thoughts here. I know that there are some people who deny baptism in Jesus Name to be essential. And some who deny one needs to be baptized in any way to be saved.

As I look on this story and I see that some people saw it so necessary that they were willing to go out into the woods to a river and clear away 2 feet of snow and broke a hole in the ice to get baptized in ice cold water in Jesus Name. WOW. That is dedication.

We mostly have heated, indoor baptismals and some folks still will not get baptized.

Just an observation.

[Steve Epley]

There were folks baptized in Jesus Name in Eastern Ky. & Tn. before 1915 records show. They were early splits off the group that later formed the Church of God. Most handled snakes.

[kclee4jc]

There were folks baptized in Jesus Name in Eastern Ky. & Tn. before 1915 records show. They were early splits off the group that later formed the Church of God. Most handled snakes.

I have a book on early snake handlers. Some of the first to baptize in Jesus Name that is recorded were snake handlers. My memory is foggy but there was a lady preacher that preached in kentucky and she preached baptism in Jesus Name. Often times while she was preaching she would handle rattlesnakes. I believe that this is where the practice of snake handling was inspired. At this time it was not a normal practice in any of the churches. I have to say that I suspect this ladies ministry could have been genuine.

[Michael Phelps]

I have a book on early snake handlers. Some of the first to baptize in Jesus Name that is recorded were snake handlers. My memory is foggy but there was a lady preacher that preached in kentucky and she preached baptism in Jesus Name. Often times while she was preaching she would handle rattlesnakes. I believe that this is where the practice of snake handling was inspired. At this time it was not a normal practice in any of the churches. I have to say that I suspect this ladies ministry could have been genuine.

You just lost Elder Epley at "lady preacher", lol......

[CC1]

I was born December 6, 1937.
In August/September 1959 I went to a Church of Jesus Christ Convention in Charleston, WV. There I met a man, Bob Winstead, who was pastoring the Church of Jesus Christ in Eskdale, Kanawha County WV somewhere outside of Charleston. I had previously met him in Niles, Michigan some years before at a convention of The Church of Jesus Christ, Pentecostal Faith. I took out license with The Church of Jesus Christ while I was there in Charleston and Bob Winstead was one who signed my application. Bishop Mark Lawson was still alive back then. I preached for Bob Winstead one night while I was there. After I got back home I had second thoughts and sent the license in to Bishop Lawson because I was attending a UPC church and doing some teaching and preaching there and did not want to get into any trouble with my pastor (although I was preaching around at non-UPC churches at the time, even a couple Church of Jesus Christ churches. Actually, my wife's grandfather who married us was a preacher with The Church of Jesus Christ.

Later I did take out license with The Church of Jesus Christ, Pentecostal Faith.Bishop G.R. Brock in Indianapolis was the Presiding Bishop. I let that license lapse when we started going to an ALJC church in the Cincinnati area. Later I was licensed with the ALJC.

Speaking of old...... the picture of me and my wife in the attached montage was taken in the fall of 1959 at The Church of Jesus Christ Pentecostal Faith in Indianapolis, Indiana when I went and preached for Bishop Brock.

Later,

Enjoyed the post and the pics!

[Jay]

Bro. Marvin Arnold documented a group in Florida that had believed this message in the 1800s. There are other examples of those who did, but often they left no record or are otherwise difficult to find. We are more literary than many of our ancestors, so some of our works my survive to give record of the the truth to later generations if the Lord tarries.

[berkeley]

Bro. Marvin Arnold documented a group in Florida that had believed this message in the 1800s. There are other examples of those who did, but often they left no record or are otherwise difficult to find. We are more literary than many of our ancestors, so some of our works my survive to give record of the the truth to later generations if the Lord tarries.

Doubt it.

[Sam]

Charles Parham is cited by some OP's as baptizing in Jesus' name and as having baptized Bro. Howard Goss that way, however, if I remember correctly, Bro. Goss was rebaptized after the "New Issue" became an issue. My memory is hazy on this. Perhaps someone can help me out or correct me if I'm wrong.

Note: just because it is recorded somewhere or said somewhere that a person baptizes "in Jesus' Name" does not mean that the name of Jesus is spoken by them at baptism. It could mean that the person baptizes as authorized by Jesus or by His authority. Some believe that Jesus authorized His disciples in Matthew 28:19 to speak the FS&HG words and so when they baptize "in His name" or "by His authority" or "as authorized by Him," they actually repeat the FS&HG words and do not say the name "Jesus"

[Jay]

It is true that CFP did baptize in Jesus' name. His own writings confirm this. Howard Goss was baptized in Jesus' name by CFP, however when the issue of the Oneness of God and the total truth of Jesus' name baptism was seen by him, he was repabtized again so as to be identified with the 'New Issue'. These are all recorded by Ethel Goss, Frank Ewart and others in their writings.

[Jay]

Note: just because it is recorded somewhere or said somewhere that a person baptizes "in Jesus' Name" does not mean that the name of Jesus is spoken by them at baptism. It could mean that the person baptizes as authorized by Jesus or by His authority. Some believe that Jesus authorized His disciples in Matthew 28:19 to speak the FS&HG words and so when they baptize "in His name" or "by His authority" or "as authorized by Him," they actually repeat the FS&HG words and do not say the name "Jesus"


However, this is not the true sense of the phrase as you would then encounter the issue of Scriptural contradiction between Matthew, Mark, and Luke. The Bible says that He commanded them to preach and baptize all nations, remission of sins was to be preached in His name, baptism was to be done in the name (notice the explicit singularity) of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, and lastly Peter preached that baptism should be in the name (again explicitly singular) of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins. Peter obeyed the explicit command of our Lord to baptize using His name as His is the only name that can be used to save from sin. All power is given to Him and is expressed in His name. He is one God and His Name Is One.

[houston]

However, this is not the true sense of the phrase as you would then encounter the issue of Scriptural contradiction between Matthew, Mark, and Luke. The Bible says that He commanded them to preach and baptize all nations, remission of sins was to be preached in His name, baptism was to be done in the name (notice the explicit singularity) of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost, and lastly Peter preached that baptism should be in the name (again explicitly singular) of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins. Peter obeyed the explicit command of our Lord to baptize using His name as His is the only name that can be used to save from sin. All power is given to Him and is expressed in His name. He is one God and His Name Is One.

The bible does not support a "singular" name for F,S, HS. "In the name" means in the authority of that name.

[seekerman]

It would be interesting to list the Apostolic preachers in the 1800s. Anyone want to take a shot at it?
During the 1800s, there's no problem finding Baptist preachers, Methodist preachers, Presbyterian preachers, Mormon preachers, Roman Catholic preachers, Church of Christ preachers, Seventh Day Adventist preachers, Jehovah Witness preachers, Lutheran preachers, Anglican preachers, Eastern orthodox preachers, Unitarian preachers, Amish preachers, Mennonite preachers....just to name a few, but no Apostolic preachers.

Anyone want to take a shot of listing the Apostolic preachers during the 1800s? Or maybe suggest a theory of why there is no record of any Apostolic preachers or churches until they SUDDENLY!!! appeared around 1913?

Anyone? :)

[bbyrd009]

You just lost Elder Epley at "lady preacher", lol......One would hope.

[bbyrd009]

During the 1800s, there's no problem finding Baptist preachers, Methodist preachers, Presbyterian preachers, Mormon preachers, Roman Catholic preachers, Church of Christ preachers, Seventh Day Adventist preachers, Jehovah Witness preachers, Lutheran preachers, Anglican preachers, Eastern orthodox preachers, Unitarian preachers, Amish preachers, Mennonite preachers....just to name a few, but no Apostolic preachers.

Anyone want to take a shot of listing the Apostolic preachers during the 1800s? Or maybe suggest a theory of why there is no record of any Apostolic preachers or churches until they SUDDENLY!!! appeared around 1913?

Anyone? :)

Um, the lady who revived "Rapture," in the 1870's, forgot her name, isn't considered "Apostolic?" Not to interrupt your thought...

[seekerman]

Um, the lady who revived "Rapture," in the 1870's, forgot her name, isn't considered "Apostolic?" Not to interrupt your thought...
You thinking of Margaret McDonald, about 1830, the source of the pre-trib rapture theory which John Nelson Darby popularized?

[Jay]

The bible does not support a "singular" name for F,S, HS. "In the name" means in the authority of that name.


In order to be able to use the authority of the name, you must have the ability to use the name. You can not use the name if it has not been given to you. It is given to you when you are baptized in the name of Jesus.

[bbyrd009]

You thinking of Margaret McDonald, about 1830, the source of the pre-trib rapture theory which John Nelson Darby popularized?

Yup. I wondered why "search" led to him and not her...

[Michael Phelps]

In order to be able to use the authority of the name, you must have the ability to use the name. You can not use the name if it has not been given to you. It is given to you when you are baptized in the name of Jesus.

Just so I'm clear here, are you saying that people cannot effectively use the name of Jesus until AFTER they've been baptized in the name of Jesus?

[bbyrd009]

This is surely the view espoused by our institutions; narrow though it may sound. Hey, 2 out of 3...

[Steve Epley]

It is true that CFP did baptize in Jesus' name. His own writings confirm this. Howard Goss was baptized in Jesus' name by CFP, however when the issue of the Oneness of God and the total truth of Jesus' name baptism was seen by him, he was repabtized again so as to be identified with the 'New Issue'. These are all recorded by Ethel Goss, Frank Ewart and others in their writings.

Parham did baptize in Jesus Name originally but after the 'new issue' he reversed.

[Steve Epley]

Charles Parham is cited by some OP's as baptizing in Jesus' name and as having baptized Bro. Howard Goss that way, however, if I remember correctly, Bro. Goss was rebaptized after the "New Issue" became an issue. My memory is hazy on this. Perhaps someone can help me out or correct me if I'm wrong.

Note: just because it is recorded somewhere or said somewhere that a person baptizes "in Jesus' Name" does not mean that the name of Jesus is spoken by them at baptism. It could mean that the person baptizes as authorized by Jesus or by His authority. Some believe that Jesus authorized His disciples in Matthew 28:19 to speak the FS&HG words and so when they baptize "in His name" or "by His authority" or "as authorized by Him," they actually repeat the FS&HG words and do not say the name "Jesus"

And you found this where?

[Steve Epley]

The bible does not support a "singular" name for F,S, HS. "In the name" means in the authority of that name.

You are confused. Zech. 14:9 says just that. God has ONE saving name. By the authority of is a human invention trying to do away with the truth. The majority of lexcions do not agree with this premise.

[berkeley]

In order to be able to use the authority of the name, you must have the ability to use the name. You can not use the name if it has not been given to you. It is given to you when you are baptized in the name of Jesus.

How'd you extrapolate that?

[OnTheFritz]

In order to be able to use the authority of the name, you must have the ability to use the name. You can not use the name if it has not been given to you. It is given to you when you are baptized in the name of Jesus.

It's like retrofitting facts to support the truth you think you know. Cool!

[Jay]

Just so I'm clear here, are you saying that people cannot effectively use the name of Jesus until AFTER they've been baptized in the name of Jesus?


Any who has not taken the name of Jesus has not been adopted into the family of God. It takes obedience to the entire Acts 2:38 message. We taken on His name in baptism.

Parham did baptize in Jesus Name originally but after the 'new issue' he reversed.

I did not mean to imply that Charles Parham continued to so baptize. It was very disappointing to see that he would not accept the fullness of the truth.

How'd you extrapolate that?

It is from a lot of study on the efficacy and necessity of baptism in Jesus' name.

It's like retrofitting facts to support the truth you think you know. Cool!

I do not need to twist and make the facts my belief. I believe the facts.

[bbyrd009]

Deed must be considered here as well as word, in light of the separation of sheep and goats, imo.

[kclee4jc]

The bible does not support a "singular" name for F,S, HS. "In the name" means in the authority of that name.

You really believe this Bro?

[Tim Rutledge]

I was wondering today who would be the most prominent modern day Apostolic Preacher. Who first pops into your mind when you think of the Apostolic Movement within the last century.

I.H. Terry. Carl Ballestero. Verbal Bean. L. E. Westberg. D.C. Moody. Vaughn Morton. Jonathan Alvear. Johnny Godair. Gary Howard. Steve Pixler.
(the first 10 that come to my mind).

[tv1a]

Smith Wigglesworth and John G Lake set the standard. They preached holiness with signs and wonders following. Thousands of documented miracles between both men. They preached Biblical holiness and righteousness.

[RandyWayne]

I.H. Terry. Carl Ballestero. Verbal Bean. L. E. Westberg. D.C. Moody. Vaughn Morton. Jonathan Alvear. Johnny Godair. Gary Howard. Steve Pixler.
(the first 10 that come to my mind).

I really enjoy listening to Bro Pixler myself. I don't always agree but I respect him immensely and HE respects those who may not agree completely.

[tv1a]

Steve Anderson preaches from the KJV and tells what being a man is all about. You won't believe the scripture he uses.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHYVQNkbebk

[Tim Rutledge]

If I don't respond to posts.. it's because I believe in and use the ignore option.

[Timmy]

I was wondering today who would be the most prominent modern day Apostolic Preacher. Who first pops into your mind when you think of the Apostolic Movement within the last century.

http://www.leestoneking.com/images/Itinerary/2003/ABI%20%2703/Me%20without%20ABI%20Logo.jpg

[RandyWayne]

http://www.leestoneking.com/images/Itinerary/2003/ABI%20%2703/Me%20without%20ABI%20Logo.jpg

http://i174.photobucket.com/albums/w113/RandyWayneD/Jokes/StoneColdLeeStoneking-1.jpg

[AreYouReady?]

In all my years of posting on forums, I have never placed anybody on ignore, although I realize it is a viable option for those who cannot contain themselves or are unable to disagree in peace.

[RandyWayne]

I don't even know HOW to put someone on ignore. In a few cases I would if I could.

[kclee4jc]

I.H. Terry. Carl Ballestero. Verbal Bean. L. E. Westberg. D.C. Moody. Vaughn Morton. Jonathan Alvear. Johnny Godair. Gary Howard. Steve Pixler.
(the first 10 that come to my mind).

I have heard tremendous things about IH Terry and LE Westberg but have heard neither preach. I have several old Verbal Bean cds that I have listened to and enjoyed immensley. His teaching on prayer changed my life. In the midst of his prayer series he taugt for about an hour on wedding rings. I was already starting to be persuaded this way and that settled it for me. Floyd Odom should be added to this list. Definitely a prophet to our movement. Bro Joel Holmes as well...he has impacted churches worldwide with a focus on prayer. My pastor went to Arkansas for the first time last year and our church has changed drastically since he came back.

[kclee4jc]

Men that I consider ROCKS in the Apostolic Movement.

Verbal Bean, TW Barnes, JT Pugh, Johnny Godair, Nathaniel Wilson (although he is pretty strong 'pre-trib' lol), Floyd Odom, Steve Pixler, Lee Stoneking, Mark Morgan, Joel Holmes, David Bernard, JR Ensey, And although I did not agree with many things that this man taught and said I believe Bro Billy Cole was very instrumental in large scale revivals of Apostolic truth on foreign soils.

Someone that I have heard preach several times in our own church and I believe God has his hand on in a MAJOR way is Bro Daniel Ballinger. I believe he will be a key asset to the kingdom in these last days.

[tv1a]

Someone should change the name of this thread to Great Legalistic Preachers.

[tv1a]

That's some great apostolic preaching.
Steve Anderson preaches from the KJV and tells what being a man is all about. You won't believe the scripture he uses.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZHYVQNkbebk

[Sam]

In all my years of posting on forums, I have never placed anybody on ignore, although I realize it is a viable option for those who cannot contain themselves or are unable to disagree in peace.



I never have done that either. Actually, I don't know how to do it and maybe it's good that I don't know how to.

[Steve Epley]

That's some great apostolic preaching.

When you think you have heard it all............................................... :heeheehee

[acerrak]

Men that I consider ROCKS in the Apostolic Movement.

Verbal Bean, TW Barnes, JT Pugh, Johnny Godair, Nathaniel Wilson (although he is pretty strong 'pre-trib' lol), Floyd Odom, Steve Pixler, Lee Stoneking, Mark Morgan, Joel Holmes, David Bernard, JR Ensey, And although I did not agree with many things that this man taught and said I believe Bro Billy Cole was very instrumental in large scale revivals of Apostolic truth on foreign soils.

Someone that I have heard preach several times in our own church and I believe God has his hand on in a MAJOR way is Bro Daniel Ballinger. I believe he will be a key asset to the kingdom in these last days.

even when i was in the upci i wouldnt considered lee stoneking. i got on board with this guy and i listened to his sermons, i was actually turned off by his preaching. holy magic hair doctrine and some other stuff about women he said that i have stated on the forums in the pass, just lead me away from Him.

I would add Jeff arnold to the list, but after his last preaching session when he made fun of fat people, even though i dont consider myself fat. i was offended and it made other people cry. I was not alone in this many people was sorta upset and disgusted.

it was a great sermon till the jokes and the stabs came into play.

I would also add anthony mangun, very refreshing to listen to him. My fav preacher in building blocks for modern day apostolic is probably Pastor Kenny Marshburn. Love listening to that man. I have many of his sermons on Mp3

[RandyWayne]

even when i was in the upci i wouldnt considered lee stoneking. i got on board with this guy and i listened to his sermons, i was actually turned off by his preaching. holy magic hair doctrine and some other stuff about women he said that i have stated on the forums in the pass, just lead me away from Him.

I would add Jeff arnold to the list, but after his last preaching session when he made fun of fat people, even though i dont consider myself fat. i was offended and it made other people cry. I was not alone in this many people was sorta upset and disgusted.

it was a great sermon till the jokes and the stabs came into play.

I would also add anthony mangun, very refreshing to listen to him. My fav preacher in building blocks for modern day apostolic is probably Pastor Kenny Marshburn. Love listening to that man. I have many of his sermons on Mp3

Even if you removed the whole HMH teachers from LS I still have a very hard time listening to him. I realize it is personal preference on my part but I just can't handle his "style". Granted there are some preachers (teachers) that I just love but put many to sleep. I just can't handle classic "preaching!" which is nothing but a motivational "ra ra ra!"ing to my tender ears.

[houston]

Even if you removed the whole HMH teachers from LS I still have a very hard time listening to him. I realize it is personal preference on my part but I just can't handle his "style". Granted there are some preachers (teachers) that I just love but put many to sleep. I just can't handle classic "preaching!" which is nothing but a motivational "ra ra ra!"ing to my tender ears.

I loved D. James Kennedy, Charles Stanley, Jack Hayford, and some other guy that I can't recall.

[Timmy]

I loved D. James Kennedy, Charles Stanley, Jack Hayford, and some other guy that I can't recall.

Chuck Swindoll?

[Tim Rutledge]

In all my years of posting on forums, I have never placed anybody on ignore, although I realize it is a viable option for those who cannot contain themselves or are unable to disagree in peace.

I'm hurt. Please be nice to me I'm a very sensitive fellow. I'll Pray I can be as peaceable and humble as yourself.
lol

[AreYouReady?]

I'm hurt. Please be nice to me I'm a very sensitive fellow. I'll Pray I can be as peaceable and humble as yourself.
lol

:toofunny

You know, I think I like you even though we do not agree on some pov's.

Believe it or not, I used to be very humble....until I got batted around, deceived, scammed by people in general...not just brothers and sisters. Even an abused dog when backed into a corner will learn to fight. :D

Let me clarify...by agreeing in peace I mean to agree to disagree and still like one another after the fight. :D

I will work on trying to be more humble.:D After all, I want to make heaven my home like you do. :)

[Sam]

There are several areas where I don't agree with some on here but that's just natural. Each of us is an individual. Over time we have come to believe the way we do because of several different things working together. I only went to Bible School for one year. That was the 1956-1957 year at the Apostolic Bible Institute in St. Paul, MN. Then from 1957 until 1963 or 1964 I had the privilege of having Frank Curts as my pastor. He was considered a "Bible Teacher" back in "the day" in the PAW, PAJC and UPC. I can see the influence of Bishop Haywood, S.G. Norris, and F.E. Curts in the things that I believe.

When I was in Bible School, there were things taught that I just could not accept and believe and since the Bible School days and the days under the teaching of Bro. Curts there are things on which I have changed my views.

We all have to do that. We all can't just blindly accept everything taught. We have to see things for ourselves. At least in my opinion we do.

[AreYouReady?]

I agree with that premise, Sam.

[Tim Rutledge]

:toofunny

You know, I think I like you even though we do not agree on some pov's.

Believe it or not, I used to be very humble....until I got batted around, deceived, scammed by people in general...not just brothers and sisters. Even an abused dog when backed into a corner will learn to fight. :D

Let me clarify...by agreeing in peace I mean to agree to disagree and still like one another after the fight. :D

I will work on trying to be more humble.:D After all, I want to make heaven my home like you do. :)

Please forgive my sarcasm. I'm really good at it though. And my skin is pretty thick.. say what you feel..

[Sam]

This is a video of Bro. Joe David Sizemore.
He was my pastor from 1963 or 1964 until some time in 1978.
He was a member of the ALJC.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rioPzAjDrK4

[houston]

Chuck Swindoll?

Him too ...but not who I was... ah... that Jeremiah guy!!!

[Sam]

Him too ...but not who I was... ah... that Jeremiah guy!!!



that Jeremiah guy?
He was a preacher?
I thought Jeremiah was a bull frog

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFypAB7nYGA

[Hesetmefree238]

Most influential Apostolic ministers since the 1980's, when I came into the church:
Nathaniel A Urshan, T.F. Tenney, Anthony Mangun, Kenneth Haney, David Bernard (mostly because of his writings), Jeff Arnold, C.M. Becton, and Lee Stoneking.

[Falla39]

Him too ...but not who I was... ah... that Jeremiah guy!!!

David Jeremiah??

[Falla39]

The bible does not support a "singular" name for F,S, HS. "In the name" means in the authority of that name.

Matthew 1:21
21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.

John 3:16-18
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


Acts 4:9-12
9 If we this day be examined of the good deed done to the impotent man, by what means he is made whole;

10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.

12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.


Philippians 2: 5-11
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Houston, HE HAS A NAME! HIS NAME IS JESUS!

Falla39

[acerrak]

Matthew 1:21
21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.

John 3:16-18
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


Acts 4:9-12
9 If we this day be examined of the good deed done to the impotent man, by what means he is made whole;

10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.

12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.


Philippians 2: 5-11
5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

Houston, HE HAS A NAME! HIS NAME IS JESUS!

Falla39


The name of the Father is Not Jesus though, God the Father gave the Son the name Jesus, the Name of God has always Been YHWH. so yes the son is named JESUS, and those who confess that Jesus is the Son of God it is to the Glory of Jesus Father YHWH.

remember Jesus was given all power and authority, some one gave it to him. That would be His Father God(YHWH) Jesus said i dont do these miracles its the Father inside of Me (YHWH) that does them.

Jesus re-affirmed the Shima, 4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.

Hear o israel YHWH our Elohim YHWH is one. <- that is the shema

Jesus did not say Hear o Israel Jesus our God Jesus is One.

[returnman]

Have heard numerous great messages throughout almost 3 decades. The one teaching series that stands out is when J.T. Pugh did the day session at Oregon camp sometime in the early 90's. Haven't listen to the tapes in years but was good "how to get along and not offend others" stuff.
The two or three times I heard or spoke with him, his kind spirit stood out to me.

[returnman]

For those of us who have had exposure outside of the apostolic ranks it is glaring how the movement exhalts and puts men on a pedestal, making them celebrities within. I am talking about every level. i.e section, district, national. Seriously, when you get away from it a while and attend a church with a body of true deacons and elders that have actual authority and responsibility you wouldn't believe how much it reveals this type of idolitry.
I believe in genuine respect and honor for the ministry which includes all of the offices.

[Falla39]

The name of the Father is Not Jesus though, God the Father gave the Son the name Jesus, the Name of God has always Been YHWH. so yes the son is named JESUS, and those who confess that Jesus is the Son of God it is to the Glory of Jesus Father YHWH.

remember Jesus was given all power and authority, some one gave it to him. That would be His Father God(YHWH) Jesus said i dont do these miracles its the Father inside of Me (YHWH) that does them.

Jesus re-affirmed the Shima, 4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one.

Hear o israel YHWH our Elohim YHWH is one. <- that is the shema

Jesus did not say Hear o Israel Jesus our God Jesus is One.

Matt. 1:23
Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

Eph.3:14,15
14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,

Heb.10:5
Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:


Father (God is a SPIRIT) mediated or reconciled with the world through the body of the man, Christ Jesus. A spirit needs a body to "operate" or mediate through. Just as electricity must have something to travel through, cables, conduits, etc. The Israelites were scared to death of God (Spirit) unharnessed. Lightenings, thunderings, etc. But when HE came to earth in the form of a man, they did not recognize him until it was revealed to Peter. Flesh and blood did not reveal it to Peter, but the Father which was in heaven. (Matt.16:17). It was not time for his revelation or revealing (unveiling). Just as the veil in the temple was torn open, men's minds are closed until they "see" beyond the veil. (flesh). Who is this that even the winds and the waves obey him. The elements had heard that Voice before when it spoke "Let there be LIGHT"!
Paul spoke of the mystery that had been hidden but was now revealed which was, "Christ in you, the HOPE of glory".

Falla39

[acerrak]

Matt. 1:23
Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

immanuel was a expression used. Cause we know he was never called Immanuel or named. plus isaiah speaks about Immanuel in Isaiah ch 7-8 and that was a metaphor for a child that would be a prophesy to the king, The Boy was named Immanuel but he wasnt God with us as being literally God. He also talked about when the boy got of the rightfull age we would know right and wrong, you should look it up and compare

Eph.3:14,15
14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,

Exellent verse. Paul said he bowed to Jesus Father, Whom all of heaven is named after. Not saying that everything in heaven is named after Jesus, No he said after the name of the Father, and in Jewish culture it was always and has always been YHWH. the jews did Shorten it to YAH. and so when you say halleluYah your giving praise to God the Father.

Heb.10:5
Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

this actually is a translation error in hebrews. The author copied it from the greek lxx which mistranslated the verse when cvopied from the hebrew. you can look at the psalms it was copied from translated the correct way from hebrew to english

Psalm 40:6 Sacrifice and offering you did not desire, but my ears you have pierced; burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not require.

Father (God is a SPIRIT) mediated or reconciled with the world through the body of the man, Christ Jesus. A spirit needs a body to "operate" or mediate through. Just as electricity must have something to travel through, cables, conduits, etc. The Israelites were scared to death of God (Spirit) unharnessed. Lightenings, thunderings, etc. But when HE came to earth in the form of a man, they did not recognize him until it was revealed to Peter. Flesh and blood did not reveal it to Peter, but the Father which was in heaven. (Matt.16:17). It was not time for his revelation or revealing (unveiling). Just as the veil in the temple was torn open, men's minds are closed until they "see" beyond the veil. (flesh). Who is this that even the winds and the waves obey him. The elements had heard that Voice before when it spoke "Let there be LIGHT"!
Paul spoke of the mystery that had been hidden but was now revealed which was, "Christ in you, the HOPE of glory".

Falla39

My words in red
Father (God is a SPIRIT) mediated or reconciled with the world through the body of the man, Christ Jesus. A spirit needs a body to "operate" or mediate through. Just as electricity must have something to travel through, cables, conduits, etc.

No he doesnt. Gods Spirit was made known with many theophanies and he didnt have to have a Body then. Nor does he Need a body to operate from. All creation came from the Power of His Spirit with out a "body"

I do agree God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself

The Israelites were scared to death of God (Spirit) unharnessed. Lightenings, thunderings, etc. But when HE came to earth in the form of a man, they did not recognize him until it was revealed to Peter. Flesh and blood did not reveal it to Peter, but the Father which was in heaven. (Matt.16:17).

the revelation was not that peter realized Jesus was God, the reveletion that peter recieved from God was that Jesus was The messiah(the annointed) Son of God

The elements had heard that Voice before when it spoke "Let there be LIGHT"! sorry. The bible is clear Jesus was born in bethlehem under the law. Now if you want to discuss a wisdom Christology we can do that.

[Tim Rutledge]

Jesus came in His Fathers name.

[acerrak]

Jesus came in His Fathers name.

that is exactly right he came in His fathers name, not literaly lol that is the problem with the oneness doctrine. He came in His Fathers authority.

Just as a messanger is sent out to the kingdom, He comes in the name of the king. Has always ment that, none of those messengers was the king so to speak.

Jesus =Son
YHWH = Father

Jesus came in YHWH's authority
a great parable we have to explain such a thing is the evil vinyard workers.

Matthew 21:33-40 (New International Version)

The Parable of the Tenants
33 “Listen to another parable: There was a landowner who planted a vineyard. He put a wall around it, dug a winepress in it and built a watchtower. Then he rented the vineyard to some farmers and moved to another place. 34 When the harvest time approached, he sent his servants to the tenants to collect his fruit.
35 “The tenants seized his servants; they beat one, killed another, and stoned a third. 36 Then he sent other servants to them, more than the first time, and the tenants treated them the same way. 37 Last of all, he sent his son to them. ‘They will respect my son,’ he said.

38 “But when the tenants saw the son, they said to each other, ‘This is the heir. Come, let’s kill him and take his inheritance.’ 39 So they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him.

40 “Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?”


all the servants and the Son came in The authority of the land owner, and the son was the son to the father. He sent his son in His name(not a literal name) but in the name of has always been in authority..

[Sister Alvear]

Reading fast but did you tell us the Fathers Name?

[acerrak]

Reading fast but did you tell us the Fathers Name?

yes YHWH. YAH HEH VAV/WAW HEH

if one believes in the Shema as Jesus did Then one would declare the name of God as Jesus would have as well

Even Josephus the jewish Historian makes note of the 4 letter name of God written and kept under some priest hats.

Hear O Israel YHWH our Elohim YHWH is one. In jewish tradition many names contain parts of the name of God.

thus elijah is Eliyahu meaning my God is YHWH Jesus hebrew name had similiar meaning

Yeheshua YHWH is salvation

[Sam]

Jesus came in His Fathers name.

Tim,
I am Jesus' name and I believe the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost is Jesus so I am not arguing about what God's name is. ut I do believe that in John 5:43, Jesus is speaking of coming in His Father's authority, not trying to show those people He was speaking with that the Father's name is Jesus.

Because I speak English, I call Him Jesus. Jesus is the English equivalent of the Greek name Iesous (pronounced Yay-soos or ee-ay-soos) or of the Hebrew name Yeshua or Y'hoshua.

Because there are several people in our NT known as Jesus: (Joshua who took over after the death of Moses is called Jesus in the NT at Acts 7:48 and Hebrews 4:8; there is a sorcerer named Bar-jesus or Son of Joshua in Acts 13:7; and a minister named Jesus also known as Justus in Colossians 4:11) I like to use the name "Jesus Christ" when referring to our Savior and God.

[Sam]

yes YHWH. YAH HEH VAV/WAW HEH

if one believes in the Shema as Jesus did Then one would declare the name of God as Jesus would have as well

Even Josephus the jewish Historian makes note of the 4 letter name of God written and kept under some priest hats.

Hear O Israel YHWH our Elohim YHWH is one. In jewish tradition many names contain parts of the name of God.

thus elijah is Eliyahu meaning my God is YHWH Jesus hebrew name had similiar meaning

Yeheshua YHWH is salvation

God was called several things and went by several different names in the Old Testament but to His covenant people He was known as YHWH (ref Exodus 3:13-15 and Exodus 6:2-3). He revealed different aspects of His character, purpose, and work in various forms of that name which are some times referred to God's compound redemptive names such as YHWH-ga'al (YHWH our Redeemer) or YHWH-Jireh (YHWH our Provision or Provider) etc but when He came in person to save us He came as Y'hoshua or Yeshua (YHWH-Savior or YHWH-our Salvation). So when we say Yeshua or when we say Jesus we are calling Him YHWH and everything He was under those various compound redemptive names is included in the name of Jesus.

[acerrak]

God was called several things and went by several different names in the Old Testament but to His covenant people He was known as YHWH (ref Exodus 3:13-15 and Exodus 6:2-3). He revealed different aspects of His character, purpose, and work in various forms of that name which are some times referred to God's compound redemptive names such as YHWH-ga'al (YHWH our Redeemer) or YHWH-Jireh (YHWH our Provision or Provider) etc but when He came in person to save us He came as Y'hoshua or Yeshua (YHWH-Savior or YHWH-our Salvation). So when we say Yeshua or when we say Jesus we are calling Him YHWH and everything He was under those various compound redemptive names is included in the name of Jesus.

not really, the name is YHWH all that followed was a type of adjectives describing certain roles or titles. for instanced Sam- The mercifull- Sam -The Wise- Sam-The Provider- Your name is Sam and the rest is decribing a action role or title.

like you said there was many jesus in the bible along with joshua which practically ment the same. but i dont agree calling Jesus is calling him YHWH that would mean all the other Jesus would be called YHWH as well.

YHWH has always Been the name. Jesus and the Jews new it. and when Jesus stated the Shema it was and has always been a reference to YHWH.

Jesus never said Hear O Israel Jesus our elohim is One

[Falla39]

not really, the name is YHWH all that followed was a type of adjectives describing certain roles or titles. for instanced Sam- The mercifull- Sam -The Wise- Sam-The Provider- Your name is Sam and the rest is decribing a action role or title.

like you said there was many jesus in the bible along with joshua which practically ment the same. but i dont agree calling Jesus is calling him YHWH that would mean all the other Jesus would be called YHWH as well.

YHWH has always Been the name. Jesus and the Jews new it. and when Jesus stated the Shema it was and has always been a reference to YHWH.

Jesus never said Hear O Israel Jesus our elohim is One

The name of God was concealed (hidden) under the Old
Covenant. But with the New Covenant it was revealed.

Those that are Christ's are Abraham's seed, according to the Promise. The Promise of the Father was the HOLY GHOST. It was given on the Day of Pentecost. In the Old Testament (Covenant), everything pointed AHEAD to when the Seed, Jesus Christ should come. Now, since Jesus came everything points BACK to His death, burial and resurrection. Oh, what a Salvation Plan!

Falla39

[acerrak]

The name of God was concealed (hidden) under the Old
Covenant. But with the New Covenant it was revealed.

Those that are Christ's are Abraham's seed, according to the Promise. The Promise of the Father was the HOLY GHOST. It was given on the Day of Pentecost. In the Old Testament (Covenant), everything pointed AHEAD to when the Seed, Jesus Christ should come. Now, since Jesus came everything points BACK to His death, burial and resurrection. Oh, what a Salvation Plan!

Falla39

wrong sister it was never concealed or Hidden, they just used words like Hashem or adonai, in writting it down to make sure they never used it in a vain way.

Moses new it and taught it to people it has always been YHWH. that word has been removed from your bible and replaced, but at one time was listed over 7000 times in the jewish bible (the Name of GOD)

Those that are Christ's are Abraham's seed, according to the Promise. The Promise of the Father was the HOLY GHOST. It was given on the Day of Pentecost. In the Old Testament (Covenant), everything pointed AHEAD to when the Seed, Jesus Christ should come. Now, since Jesus came everything points BACK to His death, burial and resurrection. Oh, what a Salvation Plan!

I agree but that doesnt change the name of God the Father

[Falla39]

Hosea 11:1
When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.

Matthew 2: 14-18
14 When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt:

15 And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.

16 Then Herod, when he saw that he was mocked of the wise men, was exceeding wroth, and sent forth, and slew all the children that were in Bethlehem, and in all the coasts thereof, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had diligently inquired of the wise men. Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremiah the prophet, saying,
18 In Rama was there a voice heard, lamentation, and weeping, and great mourning, Rachel weeping for her children, and would not be comforted, because they are not.

2Corinthians 5:17
17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Galatians 6: 15,16
15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

Jesus Christ and His Body (church), the NEW Israel of GOD.

Falla39

[Tim Rutledge]

that is exactly right he came in His fathers name, not literaly lol that is the problem with the oneness doctrine. He came in His Fathers authority.

Just as a messanger is sent out to the kingdom, He comes in the name of the king. Has always ment that, none of those messengers was the king so to speak.

Jesus =Son
YHWH = Father

Jesus came in YHWH's authority
a great parable we have to explain such a thing is the evil vinyard workers.

Matthew 21:33-40 (New International Version)

The Parable of the Tenants
33 “Listen to another parable: There was a landowner who planted a vineyard. He put a wall around it, dug a winepress in it and built a watchtower. Then he rented the vineyard to some farmers and moved to another place. 34 When the harvest time approached, he sent his servants to the tenants to collect his fruit.
35 “The tenants seized his servants; they beat one, killed another, and stoned a third. 36 Then he sent other servants to them, more than the first time, and the tenants treated them the same way. 37 Last of all, he sent his son to them. ‘They will respect my son,’ he said.

38 “But when the tenants saw the son, they said to each other, ‘This is the heir. Come, let’s kill him and take his inheritance.’ 39 So they took him and threw him out of the vineyard and killed him.

40 “Therefore, when the owner of the vineyard comes, what will he do to those tenants?”



all the servants and the Son came in The authority of the land owner, and the son was the son to the father. He sent his son in His name(not a literal name) but in the name of has always been in authority..

The Everlasting Father was manifested in the flesh. (Jesus)

IS. 9:6

[jaxfam6]

What truly amazes me is that many of the very best preachers are not known by the masses. Why is that? Many very good and very influential preachers out there and no really knows their names. Well I guess the fact that God does is what is important anyway.
I know several ministers that are known in many organization by preachers who call them for advice and prayer. They have fantastic ministries, are used in the many of the gifts of the Spirit, and it can be said of them that they have filled every office of the ministry.

[AreYouReady?]

They must be like Jesus...who made himself of no reputation.

[UnTraditional]

Could you all please change the name of this forum, removing Apostolic. Many of these Jesus name haters are about as Apostolic as the desk I am typing on. It is one thing to debate smaller issues of doctrine, but when people downgrade Oneness and Jesus name, and such is not only allowed but welcomed, then the place where it is allowed is no longer Apostolic, but is Laodicea. So, please, for honesty's sake, change the name of this place.

[Tim Rutledge]

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. (Isaiah 9:6 KJV)

In the USA we speak English, and the name of the everlasting Father is Jesus.

[Falla39]

In Genesis, He's the breath of life
In Exodus, the Passover Lamb
In Leviticus, He's our High Priest
Numbers, The fire by night
Deuteronomy, He's Moses' voice
In Joshua, He is salvation's choice
Judges, law giver
In Ruth, the kinsmen-redeemer
First and second Samuel, our trusted prophet
In Kings and Chronicles, He's sovereign

Ezra, true and faithful scribe
Nehemiah, He's the rebuilder of broken walls and lives
In Esther, He's Mordecai's courage
In Job, the timeless redeemer
In Psalms, He is our morning song

In Proverbs, wisdom's cry
Ecclesiastes, the time and season
In the Song of Solomon, He is the lover's dream

He is, He is, HE IS!

In Isaiah, He's Prince of Peace
Jeremiah, the weeping prophet
In Lamentations, the cry for Israel
Ezekiel, He's the call from sin
In Daniel, the stranger in the fire

In Hosea, He is forever faithful
In Joel, He's the Spirits power
In Amos, the arms that carry us
In Obadiah, He's the Lord our Savior
In Jonah, He's the great missionary

In Micah, the promise of peace
In Nahum, He is our strength and our shield
In Habakkuk and Zephaniah, He's pleading for revival
In Haggai, He restores a lost heritage
In Zechariah, our fountain

In Malachi, He is the son of righteousness rising with healing in His wings

He is, He is, HE IS!

In Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, He is God, Man, Messiah
In the book of Acts, He is fire from heaven
In Romans, He's the grace of God
In Corinthians, the power of love
In Galatians, He is freedom from the curse of sin

Ephesians, our glorious treasure
Philippians, the servants heart
In Colossians, All fulness dwells in Him
Thessalonians, our coming King
In Timothy, Titus, Philemon He's our mediator and our faithful Pastor

In Hebrews, the everlasting covenant
In James, the one who heals the sick.
In First and Second Peter, he is our Shepherd
In John and in Jude, He is the lover coming for His bride
In the Revelation, He is King of Kings and Lord of Lords

He is, He is, HE IS!

The prince of peace
The Son of man
The Lamb of God
The great I AM

He's the alpha and omega
Our God and our Savior
He is Jesus Christ the Lord
and when time is no more
He is, HE IS!

[Jermyn Davidson]

Amen!
Jesus is the Christ, the SON of the Living GOD!

[Sister Alvear]

<< Romans 10:13 >>

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."
King James Bible
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

American King James Version
For whoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

American Standard Version
for, Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Douay-Rheims Bible
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord, shall be saved.

Darby Bible Translation
For every one whosoever, who shall call on the name of the Lord, shall be saved.

English Revised Version
for, Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Webster's Bible Translation
For whoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

World English Bible
For, "Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved."

Young's Literal Translation
for every one -- whoever shall call upon the name of the Lord, he shall be saved.'

ΠΡΟΣ ΡΩΜΑΙΟΥΣ 10:13 Greek NT: Tischendorf 8th Ed. with Diacritics
πᾶς γὰρ ὃς ἂν ἐπικαλέσηται τὸ ὄνομα κυρίου σωθήσεται.

ΠΡΟΣ ΡΩΜΑΙΟΥΣ 10:13 Greek NT: Greek Orthodox Church
πᾶς γὰρ ὃς ἂν ἐπικαλέσηται τὸ ὄνομα Κυρίου σωθήσεται.

ΠΡΟΣ ΡΩΜΑΙΟΥΣ 10:13 Greek NT: Stephanus Textus Receptus (1550, with accents)
Πᾶς γὰρ ὃς ἂν ἐπικαλέσηται τὸ ὄνομα κυρίου σωθήσεται

ΠΡΟΣ ΡΩΜΑΙΟΥΣ 10:13 Greek NT: Westcott/Hort with Diacritics
πᾶς γὰρ ὃς ἂν ἐπικαλέσηται τὸ ὄνομα κυρίου σωθήσεται.

ΠΡΟΣ ΡΩΜΑΙΟΥΣ 10:13 Greek NT: Tischendorf 8th Ed.
πας γαρ ος αν επικαλεσηται το ονομα κυριου σωθησεται

ΠΡΟΣ ΡΩΜΑΙΟΥΣ 10:13 Greek NT: Byzantine/Majority Text (2000)
πας γαρ ος αν επικαλεσηται το ονομα κυριου σωθησεται

ΠΡΟΣ ΡΩΜΑΙΟΥΣ 10:13 Greek NT: Textus Receptus (1550)
πας γαρ ος αν επικαλεσηται το ονομα κυριου σωθησεται

ΠΡΟΣ ΡΩΜΑΙΟΥΣ 10:13 Greek NT: Textus Receptus (1894)
πας γαρ ος αν επικαλεσηται το ονομα κυριου σωθησεται

ΠΡΟΣ ΡΩΜΑΙΟΥΣ 10:13 Greek NT: Westcott/Hort
πας γαρ ος αν επικαλεσηται το ονομα κυριου σωθησεται
(copied)

[Sister Alvear]

“… This Jesus is the stone that was rejected by you, the builders, which has become the cornerstone. And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved … - Acts 4:11-12

[Sister Alvear]

Joel 2:32 (King James Version)

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Joel 2:32
King James Version (KJV)
32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call.

[Falla39]

Romans 10: 14: 15, (in part)
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent?

[Esther]

In Genesis, He's the breath of life
In Exodus, the Passover Lamb
In Leviticus, He's our High Priest
Numbers, The fire by night
Deuteronomy, He's Moses' voice
In Joshua, He is salvation's choice
Judges, law giver
In Ruth, the kinsmen-redeemer
First and second Samuel, our trusted prophet
In Kings and Chronicles, He's sovereign

Ezra, true and faithful scribe
Nehemiah, He's the rebuilder of broken walls and lives
In Esther, He's Mordecai's courage
In Job, the timeless redeemer
In Psalms, He is our morning song

In Proverbs, wisdom's cry
Ecclesiastes, the time and season
In the Song of Solomon, He is the lover's dream

He is, He is, HE IS!

In Isaiah, He's Prince of Peace
Jeremiah, the weeping prophet
In Lamentations, the cry for Israel
Ezekiel, He's the call from sin
In Daniel, the stranger in the fire

In Hosea, He is forever faithful
In Joel, He's the Spirits power
In Amos, the arms that carry us
In Obadiah, He's the Lord our Savior
In Jonah, He's the great missionary

In Micah, the promise of peace
In Nahum, He is our strength and our shield
In Habakkuk and Zephaniah, He's pleading for revival
In Haggai, He restores a lost heritage
In Zechariah, our fountain

In Malachi, He is the son of righteousness rising with healing in His wings

He is, He is, HE IS!

In Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, He is God, Man, Messiah
In the book of Acts, He is fire from heaven
In Romans, He's the grace of God
In Corinthians, the power of love
In Galatians, He is freedom from the curse of sin

Ephesians, our glorious treasure
Philippians, the servants heart
In Colossians, All fulness dwells in Him
Thessalonians, our coming King
In Timothy, Titus, Philemon He's our mediator and our faithful Pastor

In Hebrews, the everlasting covenant
In James, the one who heals the sick.
In First and Second Peter, he is our Shepherd
In John and in Jude, He is the lover coming for His bride
In the Revelation, He is King of Kings and Lord of Lords

He is, He is, HE IS!

The prince of peace
The Son of man
The Lamb of God
The great I AM

He's the alpha and omega
Our God and our Savior
He is Jesus Christ the Lord
and when time is no more
He is, HE IS!


I like:thumbsup:thumbsup

[Esther]

I was wondering today who would be the most prominent modern day Apostolic Preacher. Who first pops into your mind when you think of the Apostolic Movement within the last century.

I see some comments about lifting some over others and was reminded that Peter James and John seemed to be the ones you heard more of than others, even in the Bible.

Your request was for the last 100 years.

The first and most influential in my lifetime and the one I miss the most and fervently wish I knew someone living with his kind of ministry would be Tom Barnes.

Others would be A. D. Urshan, Lee Stoneking, Anthony Mangun, Jason Sciscoe, Jeff Arnold, T.F.Tenny, James Kilgore, Nona Freeman, Vesta Mangun, Mark Morgan, Harry Haygood, Joy Haney, Janice Sjostrand, Gordon Poe, Freddie Clark, Verbal Bean, Nathaniel Urshan, C. M. Becton, Billy Cole, j. T. Pugh, Kenneth Haney, G. A. Mangun, Joe Duke and I'm sure many more I have forgotten.

There are many we will never know the names of that were behind the scenes paving a path others could not do.

We are in Gods army. We each have our own calling. Some soldiers are sent to the battle front, some are the support team some spy out the land and others are sent on covert operations and never receive the glory in this life time.

But the worst soldier is the ones that shoot their own army in the back.

Don't expect to agree with each other on every issue, pray for those you believe are in error with a right spirit.

[acerrak]

The Everlasting Father was manifested in the flesh. (Jesus)

IS. 9:6

it can also be called father of the ages.. which could be a more closer to the original

[acerrak]

Could you all please change the name of this forum, removing Apostolic. Many of these Jesus name haters are about as Apostolic as the desk I am typing on. It is one thing to debate smaller issues of doctrine, but when people downgrade Oneness and Jesus name, and such is not only allowed but welcomed, then the place where it is allowed is no longer Apostolic, but is Laodicea. So, please, for honesty's sake, change the name of this place.

tisk tisk so judgmental brother,,,

[acerrak]

:thumbsupAmen!
Jesus is the Christ, the SON of the Living GOD!

[acerrak]

“… This Jesus is the stone that was rejected by you, the builders, which has become the cornerstone. And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved … - Acts 4:11-12

we agree sister God gave Jesus his name no doubt about it. not even arguing it, however that doesnt nor has it ever changed the name of God.

The name was given to the Son, power was given to the Son.

Father gave, Son recieved. Just as Peter declared there is no other name, its that name that God has chosen to remit sin, never the less its the name of the Son not the father.

look at what he continued to say in acts 4:30
By stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus

[acerrak]

In Genesis, He's the breath of life
In Exodus, the Passover Lamb
In Leviticus, He's our High Priest
Numbers, The fire by night
Deuteronomy, He's Moses' voice
In Joshua, He is salvation's choice
Judges, law giver
In Ruth, the kinsmen-redeemer
First and second Samuel, our trusted prophet
In Kings and Chronicles, He's sovereign

Ezra, true and faithful scribe
Nehemiah, He's the rebuilder of broken walls and lives
In Esther, He's Mordecai's courage
In Job, the timeless redeemer
In Psalms, He is our morning song

In Proverbs, wisdom's cry
Ecclesiastes, the time and season
In the Song of Solomon, He is the lover's dream

He is, He is, HE IS!

In Isaiah, He's Prince of Peace
Jeremiah, the weeping prophet
In Lamentations, the cry for Israel
Ezekiel, He's the call from sin
In Daniel, the stranger in the fire

In Hosea, He is forever faithful
In Joel, He's the Spirits power
In Amos, the arms that carry us
In Obadiah, He's the Lord our Savior
In Jonah, He's the great missionary

In Micah, the promise of peace
In Nahum, He is our strength and our shield
In Habakkuk and Zephaniah, He's pleading for revival
In Haggai, He restores a lost heritage
In Zechariah, our fountain

In Malachi, He is the son of righteousness rising with healing in His wings

He is, He is, HE IS!

In Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, He is God, Man, Messiah
In the book of Acts, He is fire from heaven
In Romans, He's the grace of God
In Corinthians, the power of love
In Galatians, He is freedom from the curse of sin

Ephesians, our glorious treasure
Philippians, the servants heart
In Colossians, All fulness dwells in Him
Thessalonians, our coming King
In Timothy, Titus, Philemon He's our mediator and our faithful Pastor

In Hebrews, the everlasting covenant
In James, the one who heals the sick.
In First and Second Peter, he is our Shepherd
In John and in Jude, He is the lover coming for His bride
In the Revelation, He is King of Kings and Lord of Lords

He is, He is, HE IS!

The prince of peace
The Son of man
The Lamb of God
The great I AM

He's the alpha and omega
Our God and our Savior
He is Jesus Christ the Lord
and when time is no more
He is, HE IS!


Peter
thou art the Christ son of the Living God

acst 2:32 God raised Jesus
3:13 God Glorified his servant jesus
4:27 27 “For truly against Your holy Servant Jesus, whom You anointed
4:30 Your holy Servant Jesus
5:30 God raised Jesus
5:31 exalted him to be prince and savior
10:38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power
who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him.
10:42 ordained by God to be Judge of the living and the dead

1 peter 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ
2 peter 1

17 For He received from God the Father honor and glory when such a voice came to Him from the Excellent Glory: “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.” 18 And we heard this voice which came from heaven when we were with Him on the holy mountain

Phillip taught Jesus the Son of God
acts 8:37 ethiopian believes in the son of God

Paul Taught Christ the Son of God
acts 9:20 20 Immediately he preached the Christ[c] in the synagogues, that He is the Son of God.

17:31 because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained

romans 1:3 concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord

Jude
To those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ:

who turn the grace of our God into lewdness and deny the only Lord God and our Lord Jesus Christ

1 john 1
fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ

5 This is the message which we have heard from Him and declare to you, that God is light and in Him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him, and walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin

1john 2
we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous

1 John 4

And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world. 15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. 16 And we have known and believed the love that God has for us. God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God in him.

[tv1a]

1. Apostolic is a subjective label. Oneness pentecostals have their interpretation. Charismatics has a definition. Apostolic succession is an integral part of the catholic church.


2. The discussion about Oneness and Jesus has been respectful.

3. Where are the hateful Jesus comments?

4. James puts it best when he said there aren't any special superpowers for Oneness believers. James said oneness believers are just as smart as devils.

5. Oneness/Trinitarian theology is not a heaven or hell issue.


Could you all please change the name of this forum, removing Apostolic. Many of these Jesus name haters are about as Apostolic as the desk I am typing on. It is one thing to debate smaller issues of doctrine, but when people downgrade Oneness and Jesus name, and such is not only allowed but welcomed, then the place where it is allowed is no longer Apostolic, but is Laodicea. So, please, for honesty's sake, change the name of this place.

[Tim Rutledge]

it can also be called father of the ages.. which could be a more closer to the original

Then.. The Father of ages.. Was manifested in the flesh, and his name was Jesus.
Is. 9:6

[Falla39]

1Tim. 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Who was manifest in the flesh? Who was justified in the Spirit? Who preached unto the Gentiles? Who was believed on in the world and was received up into glory? GOD, (Spirit), but it was IN and THROUGH the (prepared) body of JESUS!

Jesus was the visible image of the invisible God. God IS a Spirit! That Spirit was manifest in and through the body of Jesus Christ. HE manifests Himself in and through His Body, the church, today.
God was glorified in His Son, the body prepared from the foundation of the world. The Word speaks of "when he comes to be glorifed IN his saints". The same Spirit that operated in the body of Jesus, is the same Spirit that operates in His Body, the church today. A spirit must have something or someone to operate in and through. To manifest through. I desire to always make myself available for the Holy Spirit/Ghost (same thing) to use this vessel to shine out through, to a lost and dying world.

Falla39

[acerrak]

1Tim. 3:16
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Who was manifest in the flesh? Who was justified in the Spirit? Who preached unto the Gentiles? Who was believed on in the world and was received up into glory? GOD, (Spirit), but it was IN and THROUGH the (prepared) body of JESUS!

Jesus was the visible image of the invisible God. God IS a Spirit! That Spirit was manifest in and through the body of Jesus Christ. HE manifests Himself in and through His Body, the church, today.
God was glorified in His Son, the body prepared from the foundation of the world. The Word speaks of "when he comes to be glorifed IN his saints". The same Spirit that operated in the body of Jesus, is the same Spirit that operates in His Body, the church today. A spirit must have something or someone to operate in and through. To manifest through. I desire to always make myself available for the Holy Spirit/Ghost (same thing) to use this vessel to shine out through, to a lost and dying world.

Falla39

the word God is a mistranslation, you will notice many have since started to put the Word He. This also goes along with the other apostles speaking of Jesus being manifested in the Flesh. the reason being is the disciples was fighting a early form of docisim.

basically that Jesus was a Spirit and never really died on the cross but appeared as so he did. Infact some people actually preach that today very sad.

also what was the Name of the Spirit in Jesus?
we also discussed that verse about the body prepared, was mistranslated from the hebrew by the greek lxx i already showed you this.

Yes I agree Jesus was the express image of His Father, Just as the picture of Caeser on the coin was a express image of Caeser. both used the same way.

I mean you want to think about it the word logo is used today by many companies. Look at a football team, they will have a Logo of Nfl that represent them on that uniform.

But lets Get back to the Name of the Spirit that was inside of Jesus, the name that Jesus supported when he upheld the Shema.

isaiah 11:2
World English Bible
The Spirit of Yahweh will rest on him: the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of Yahweh

from barnes notes
Barnes' Notes on the Bible
And the Spirit of the Lord - The Spirit of Yahweh. Chaldee, 'And there shall rest upon him the spirit of prophecy from before Yahweh.' In the previous verse, the prophet had announced his origin and his birth. In this, he proceeds to describe his extraordinary endowments, as eminently holy, pure, and wise. There can be no doubt that reference is here had to the Holy Spirit,


also lets look at
Pslams 83:18

King James Bible
That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth.

World English Bible
that they may know that you alone, whose name is Yahweh, are the Most High over all the earth.

Exodus 6:3 and I appeared to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, as God Almighty, but by My name, YHWH, I did not make Myself known to them.

Exodus 15:3 "The YHWH is a warrior; The YHWH is His name.

God Bless

[Jay]

True, and Jesus Himself made the statement that He was the One who spoke with Abraham. This caused the Jews to desire His immediate death by stoning. It was not a pre-incarnate second person of the Trinity that spoke with Abraham, but rather the only true God who would later take on human flesh and walk with us.

Is it not written that He was given a name above every other name that at His name every knee would bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the Glory of God the Father. How is it then possible that the Father has given the Son a name greater than His own? The name Jesus means 'Jehovah/Yahweh Saves'. Thus the name never actually changed at all.

[acerrak]

True, and Jesus Himself made the statement that He was the One who spoke with Abraham. This caused the Jews to desire His immediate death by stoning. It was not a pre-incarnate second person of the Trinity that spoke with Abraham, but rather the only true God who would later take on human flesh and walk with us.

Is it not written that He was given a name above every other name that at His name every knee would bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the Glory of God the Father. How is it then possible that the Father has given the Son a name greater than His own? The name Jesus means 'Jehovah/Yahweh Saves'. Thus the name never actually changed at all.

True, and Jesus Himself made the statement that He was the One who spoke with Abraham. This caused the Jews to desire His immediate death by stoning. It was not a pre-incarnate second person of the Trinity that spoke with Abraham, but rather the only true God who would later take on human flesh and walk with us.

No Jesus never said such a thing.

and im not a trinitarian, and no they wanted to stone him cause they misunderstand what Jesus was talking about. Not that He was God in the flesh. Just a few verses above this he stated I am from My father above and you are from your father below.


Is it not written that He was given a name above every other name that at His name every knee would bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the Glory of God the Father. How is it then possible that the Father has given the Son a name greater than His own? The name Jesus means 'Jehovah/Yahweh Saves'. Thus the name never actually changed at all.

The name is YHWH the last part is a adjective describing a role

The name was Given, and that name would be the saving Name for man. However it did Not change the fathers name.

4:12 (New International Version)

12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.”

Yes God the father gave power and authority to Jesus, we confess that to the Glory of God (HIS) Father

so im not sure where you get that the name of Jesus is greater than that of the Father. the name was given under heaven for the remission of sins for mankind.

John 12:28 (jesus speaking)
New Living Translation (©2007)
Father, bring glory to your name." Then a voice spoke from heaven, saying, "I have already brought glory to my name, and I will do so again."

No doubt the name of Jesus is precious in every way its the name of of the man that brough salvation to my life.
Now Just because the name means YHWH saves that didnt make Joshua who brought the israelities across the Jordan river,God in the flesh now did it.

Again what is the name of The Spirit according to scriptures that baptized Jesus and indwelt Him..

Did Jesus baptise Jesus with Jesus just curious? what happened in the jordan river that day

[Jay]

I never said that the name of Jesus was superior. However, if the Father has a name that we can know, but He gives Jesus a name that is greater than His, has He not then abdicated His position. This is an impossibility. We know that God made Himself manifest in human flesh and took upon Himself a human name. Therefore, the name that He has taken is exalted above every other name in history as it is the only name whereby we may be saved. Thus to give glory to Jesus is to give glory to the Father without the need of an artificial Trinitarian construct.

[acerrak]

I never said that the name of Jesus was superior. However, if the Father has a name that we can know, but He gives Jesus a name that is greater than His, has He not then abdicated His position. This is an impossibility. We know that God made Himself manifest in human flesh and took upon Himself a human name. Therefore, the name that He has taken is exalted above every other name in history as it is the only name whereby we may be saved. Thus to give glory to Jesus is to give glory to the Father without the need of an artificial Trinitarian construct.


again i am not a trinitarian. and you didnt answer my question about the baptism in the jordan.

also where does the bible state that Jesus name is greater than the Father? Did not Jesus Himself say My father is greater than I?

Plus please in detail decribe this adding of nature God did.


unfortunatly when the apostles reasoned from scriptured all they had was the old testament, and im sure those bereans reasoned from them to with scriptures like.

numbers 23:19

God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?

or

1 Samuel 15:29 He who is the Glory of Israel does not lie or change his mind; for he is not a man, that he should change his mind."

or

Hosea 11:9 I will not carry out my fierce anger, nor will I turn and devastate Ephraim. For I am God, and not man--the Holy One among you. I will not come in wrath.

Im not sure where you get this he added to his nature human nature..

Malachi 3:6 "I the LORD do not change.(a)

[Jay]

Joh 8:56-59 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.

Joh 10:28-39 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one. Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him. Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand,



The true context of this particular discussion is a long running discourse of several hours between Jesus and the Pharisees. He says and does things that provoke them to anger, and then He destroys their foundation. He states repeatedly that He is one with the Father, that being understood that He is the same as the Father. This is blasphemy of highest degree to the Jewish mind. This is why three times in these chapters they attempt to stone Him. They understood Him to be claiming for Himself the eternal Deity, and they wholly resented the statement having forgotten the prophecy that stated that their Messiah would have done works from a time before He was actually born.

[Jay]

again i am not a trinitarian. and you didnt answer my questions. Plus please in detail decribe this adding of nature God did.


unfortunatly when the apostles reasoned from scriptured all they had was the old testament, and im sure those bereans reasoned from them to with scriptures like.

numbers 23:19

God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind. Does he speak and then not act? Does he promise and not fulfill?

or

1 Samuel 15:29 He who is the Glory of Israel does not lie or change his mind; for he is not a man, that he should change his mind."

or

Hosea 11:9 I will not carry out my fierce anger, nor will I turn and devastate Ephraim. For I am God, and not man--the Holy One among you. I will not come in wrath.

Im not sure where you get this he added to his nature human nature..

Malachi 3:6 "I the LORD do not change.(a)



You are arguing as if I believe that there are actually a human nature/spirit vs a Divine nature/Spirit. I am not talking about that at all. He took on human flesh. Adam had the same nature originally that God had but was not equal to God in any fashion. He corrupted that nature in the Fall.

I am saying that God placed, as a rule, the same limits of human flesh upon Himself by taking to Himself human flesh. The only difference is that the nature was not corrupted by sin. Thus He was like Adam his original state.

[acerrak]

You are arguing as if I believe that there are actually a human nature/spirit vs a Divine nature/Spirit. I am not talking about that at all. He took on human flesh. Adam had the same nature originally that God had but was not equal to God in any fashion. He corrupted that nature in the Fall.

I am saying that God placed, as a rule, the same limits of human flesh upon Himself by taking to Himself human flesh. The only difference is that the nature was not corrupted by sin. Thus He was like Adam his original state.

we will just have to agree to disagree to that. we have gotten way off topic. it happends on these 90 post threads though

though i do like to hear Kenny marshbourn preach.. small man powerfull voice.
Anthony mangun did a great series over the tabernacle. about 8 mp3's very good to listen to..

[Jay]

we will just have to agree to disagree to that. we have gotten way off topic. it happends on these 90 post threads though

though i do like to hear Kenny marshbourn preach.. small man powerfull voice.
Anthony mangun did a great series over the tabernacle. about 8 mp3's very good to listen to..



I think that we shall have to start a new thread and see if we can hash out exactly what we are talking about. I have enjoyed our brief discussion and would like to understand exactly what you are attempting to say. We might even be closer to agreement than we think.

I have never heard of Kenny Marshourn. I have enjoyed listening to Bro. Anthony Mangun preach on a few occasions. He has always been a gifted preacher and teacher. I have also enjoyed messages by Bro. Randy Keyes. I was very privileged last year to hear Bro. Stan Gleason teach concerning answering a call to serve in the ministry and how to raise up others to lead into the future.

[UnTraditional]

Could you all please change the name of this forum, removing Apostolic. Many of these Jesus name haters are about as Apostolic as the desk I am typing on. It is one thing to debate smaller issues of doctrine, but when people downgrade Oneness and Jesus name, and such is not only allowed but welcomed, then the place where it is allowed is no longer Apostolic, but is Laodicea. So, please, for honesty's sake, change the name of this place.

Wish I could delete this...

[Sam]

Wish I could delete this...

You just have to realize that the house of God is a lot larger than the little room many of us choose to stay closeted in.

[houston]

Wish I could delete this...

Out of the abundance of a cholesterol filled heart the snout speaketh...

[Krt]

Yeah. Let's be honest here.

Would the people of today even listen to men dressed in animal skins telling church members to repent and asked for honey and locust for dinner?

Would the pastors of today accept Peter telling him that silver and gold have I none, but such as I have give I thee?

If Jesus who walked this earth homeless during his ministry were to walk in the church system today teaching, how many of us would welcome him on the platform?

If a preacher walked into an Apostolic church today and turned over things he did not consider to be of God and threw it out, he'd be behind bars. :nod

We would all be quaking in fear if we witnessed a man and wife fall down dead at the feet of a powerful, Holy Ghost-filled preacher because they lied to the Holy Ghost.

Many Apostolics receive the equivalent of 39 stripes because they cut to the chase and tell what the Bible says. They do not flower it up. These are the ones who do not get any praise or are of any influence.

First century preachers were the real preachers. What happened between then and now?

Today's society would consider them right-wing extremists and deliver them to jail for preaching Christ. It's coming towards that way soon anyway. Christians should be prepared.

Sorry for the rant. Just forget what I just posted and carry on because most people will think that it is not for today's mind. They may be right.

wow, this is powerful :highfive

[Amanah]

Could you all please change the name of this forum, removing Apostolic. Many of these Jesus name haters are about as Apostolic as the desk I am typing on. It is one thing to debate smaller issues of doctrine, but when people downgrade Oneness and Jesus name, and such is not only allowed but welcomed, then the place where it is allowed is no longer Apostolic, but is Laodicea. So, please, for honesty's sake, change the name of this place.

I'm confused . . .

[AreYouReady?]

Out of the abundance of a cholesterol filled heart the snout speaketh...

:ursofunny

Where did you conjure up this saying from?

[houston]

:ursofunny

Where did you conjure up this saying from?

Came to me when I hit the "reply" button. It was the nointing!!!

[houston]

I'm confused . . .

Don't bother. Really.

[AreYouReady?]

Came to me when I hit the "reply" button. It was the nointing!!!

The nointing of liquid cholesterol or of ....?:heeheehee

[houston]

The nointing of liquid cholesterol or of ....?:heeheehee

Smh

[consapente89]

A few top notch preachers… But by no means an exhaustive list
Elder Jonanthan Alvear
Elder Ron Garrett
Elder Gary Howard
Elder D.C. Moody
Elder Steve Kelly
Elder Johnny Godair
Elder Vaughn Morton
Elder Tom Johnson

[Graham]

Is that the Steve Kelly from Idaho?

[consapente89]

Is that the Steve Kelly from Idaho?

Yessir...you know him?

[Graham]

Thanks for confirming that and no I only know of him and it's all
good .

[Cracker Barrel]

A few top notch preachers… But by no means an exhaustive list
Elder Jonanthan Alvear
Elder Ron Garrett
Elder Gary Howard
Elder D.C. Moody
Elder Steve Kelly
Elder Johnny Godair
Elder Vaughn Morton
Elder Tom Johnson

Don't Forget....

Elder Mike Philips
Elder Robert Davis
Elder Don Meade
Elder Tommy Jackson
Elder Joel Holmes
Elder Crawford Coon
Elder Curtis Young
Elder Brad Lambeth
Elder Wayne McClain
Elder Wade Bass
Elder Danny Perdew
Elder JH Osborn
Elder Ray Brown
Elder Ken Bow
Elder Edwin Featherstone
Elder Mike Hearn
Elder Floyd Odom
Elder Wayne Lawhorn
Elder Donald Coon
Elder Jesse Parker
Elder Jerry Ensey
Elder Marty Ballestero
Elder Robert Cavaness
Elder Steve Epley
Elder Ron Townsley
Elder Tim Copeland
Elder Randy Hammer
Elder Steve McMullen
Elder Nathan Dudley
Elder Larry Booker
Elder Greg Riggen
Elder Phil White
Elder Keith Hood
Elder DH McKillop
Elder Don Hyler
Elder Tom Craft
Elder Dan Mena
Elder Dallas Mefford
Elder Nate Wilson
Elder Russel Frazier
Elder Ngota Aston
Elder James Groce
Elder James Mustain
Elder Ted Wade
Elder Allen Pickleshimer

Too many to name em all...

[houston]

Don't most of them have one foot in the grave?

What happens when they all die?

[MawMaw]

Don't most of them have one foot in the grave?

What happens when they all die?

Most of those ministers listed are still very much alive and well and preaching like the end of time will happen today! A few have health issues and I believe some have died.

But, we know that God already has many ministers that WILL carry and ARE carrying on this Glorious Gospel until The End really does come!

Hallelujah!

[Jermyn Davidson]

Bishop Mike Williams (Apopka, FL) should be added to this list of most INFLUENTIAL Apostolic preachers of the last century.

[houston]

Never heard of him.

[Cracker Barrel]

A few top notch preachers… But by no means an exhaustive list
Elder Jonanthan Alvear
Elder Ron Garrett
Elder Gary Howard
Elder D.C. Moody
Elder Steve Kelly
Elder Johnny Godair
Elder Vaughn Morton
Elder Tom Johnson
Don't Forget....

Elder Mike Philips
Elder Robert Davis
Elder Don Meade
Elder Tommy Jackson
Elder Joel Holmes
Elder Crawford Coon
Elder Curtis Young
Elder Brad Lambeth
Elder Wayne McClain
Elder Wade Bass
Elder Danny Perdew
Elder JH Osborn
Elder Ray Brown
Elder Ken Bow
Elder Edwin Featherstone
Elder Mike Hearn
Elder Floyd Odom
Elder Wayne Lawhorn
Elder Donald Coon
Elder Jesse Parker
Elder Jerry Ensey
Elder Marty Ballestero
Elder Robert Cavaness
Elder Steve Epley
Elder Ron Townsley
Elder Tim Copeland
Elder Randy Hammer
Elder Steve McMullen
Elder Nathan Dudley
Elder Larry Booker
Elder Greg Riggen
Elder Phil White
Elder Keith Hood
Elder DH McKillop
Elder Don Hyler
Elder Tom Craft
Elder Dan Mena
Elder Dallas Mefford
Elder Nate Wilson
Elder Russel Frazier
Elder Ngota Aston
Elder James Groce
Elder James Mustain
Elder Ted Wade
Elder Allen Pickleshimer

Too many to name em all...
Don't most of them have one foot in the grave?

What happens when they all die?

Chewed on this for a bit.

Men with this caliber, of anointing, prayer, consecration, and righteous conviction are a dying breed, for sure.

I would that I could tell you that behind each one of these there is a slew of young men in the wing.

But... not only are there next to none being sent or in the wing.
These younger guys, with the exception of a couple (and not one in the ABC groups.)... I just don't have much hope other than to say, " even so come, Lord Jesus!"

Not trying to be negative. Please forgive me, and no I'm not living in the heyday dream of yesterday. Just being a realist.

I don't see, feel, and hear what I used to.


Jeremiah 6:16..

Thus saith the Lord, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein.

Lolo I say!

[houston]

Chewed on this for a bit.

Men with this caliber, of anointing, prayer, consecration, and righteous conviction are a dying breed, for sure.

I would that I could tell you that behind each one of these there is a slew of young men in the wing.

But... not only are there next to none being sent or in the wing.
These younger guys, with the exception of a couple (and not one in the ABC groups.)... I just don't have much hope other than to say, " even so come, Lord Jesus!"

Not trying to be negative. Please forgive me, and no I'm not living in the heyday dream of yesterday. Just being a realist.

I don't see, feel, and hear what I used to.


Jeremiah 6:16..

Thus saith the Lord, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein.

Lolo I say!
I took issues with a few things while I was (supposedly) Ultra conservative. My observations from the first church that I attended below.

The pastor had to have his hand on everything. Great men that I know who recently walked away (I knew their loyalty to the pastor, no way that I will ever be convinced that they were at fault) were not allowed to grow their ministries. Then, he opposite side of the coin, the system is setup that they allowed him to have his hand on everything.

People believed that there is no one more spiritual than the pastor (whatever that means). This also limits their ability to grow. His weaknesses and limitations become those of the body.

[FlamingZword]

Chewed on this for a bit.

Men with this caliber, of anointing, prayer, consecration, and righteous conviction are a dying breed, for sure.

I would that I could tell you that behind each one of these there is a slew of young men in the wing.

But... not only are there next to none being sent or in the wing.
These younger guys, with the exception of a couple (and not one in the ABC groups.)... I just don't have much hope other than to say, " even so come, Lord Jesus!"

Not trying to be negative. Please forgive me, and no I'm not living in the heyday dream of yesterday. Just being a realist.

I don't see, feel, and hear what I used to.


Jeremiah 6:16..

Thus saith the Lord, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein.

Lolo I say!

Baloney, God has always had people ready to continue his work.

you do not see, neither did Elijah, but God had hidden 7,000 men who were faithful ready to continue the work of Elijah.

[Cracker Barrel]

Baloney, God has always had people ready to continue his work.

you do not see, neither did Elijah, but God had hidden 7,000 men who were faithful ready to continue the work of Elijah.

1Kings 19:18
Yet I have left me seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him.

Yes I understand the church has never been weak. But there has been times of 400 yrs of silence, dark ages and historical record of a hidden church.

If these young bucks don't re-dig some ancient wells covered over. We'll be headed for a great time of drought.

Unless they get out there and start cutting some spiritual wood for the Holy Ghost fire, our only hope is the rapture.

My dad often said "a bottle of milk can only hold a bottles worth of milk."
You can't make these boys be anything other than what they are.

Name 10 that even show potential or shadow resemblance of anointing of my peers and elders past.

Many have bailed out of the process, wouldn't wait till the mantle was passed on.


I love you but I can't agree.

[Evang.Benincasa]

1Kings 19:18
Yet I have left me seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him.

Yes I understand the church has never been weak. But there has been times of 400 yrs of silence, dark ages and historical record of a hidden church.

If these young bucks don't re-dig some ancient wells covered over. We'll be headed for a great time of drought.

Unless they get out there and start cutting some spiritual wood for the Holy Ghost fire, our only hope is the rapture.

My dad often said "a bottle of milk can only hold a bottles worth of milk."
You can't make these boys be anything other than what they are.

Name 10 that even show potential or shadow resemblance of anointing of my peers and elders past.

Many have bailed out of the process, wouldn't wait till the mantle was passed on.


I love you but I can't agree.

Cracker Barnacle, you believe in a Dark Age Church extinction?

And that Topeka Kansas, and Azusa Street is where God restored His truth?

[Evang.Benincasa]

If these young bucks don't re-dig some ancient wells covered over. We'll be headed for a great time of drought.

How ancient ancient those wells?

1950s? 1960s? :heeheehee

[Esaias]

1Kings 19:18
Yet I have left me seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him.

Yes I understand the church has never been weak. But there has been times of 400 yrs of silence, dark ages and historical record of a hidden church.

If these young bucks don't re-dig some ancient wells covered over. We'll be headed for a great time of drought.

Unless they get out there and start cutting some spiritual wood for the Holy Ghost fire, our only hope is the rapture.

My dad often said "a bottle of milk can only hold a bottles worth of milk."
You can't make these boys be anything other than what they are.

Name 10 that even show potential or shadow resemblance of anointing of my peers and elders past.

Many have bailed out of the process, wouldn't wait till the mantle was passed on.


I love you but I can't agree.

These are not the droids you've been looking for.