View Full Version : Humility and pride revisited...
Just before the old place went over the river so to speak, someone...I think it was Prax, started a thread on the subject of humility and pride. As I recall, it was still on page one, so I thought perhaps we could revisit this subject.
I will begin by rerunning a few quotes by the excellent book Sis. Felicity suggested to me a little over a year ago. The book is Seeking The Face Of God by Gary L. Thomas, and he writes of knowing God in a more perfect way. It is an excellent description of true inner holiness and humility and I highly recommend it.
Let us begin with an excerpt for your discussion and consideration...
He quotes the 15th century philosopher, Blaise Pascal, Knowing God without knowing our own wretchedness makes for pride. Knowing our own wretchedness without knowing God makes for despair. Knowing Jesus Christ strikes the balance because He shows us both God and our own wretchedness.
Mr. Thomas writes, We can pretend we are humble just as we can pretend we are holy, but true humility cannot be manufactured. Humility is rooted in truth, not pretense. Therefore, we need an objective standard by which we can judge ourselves, or better, allow God to judge us...
Humility is at root a celebration of our freedom in Christ; we are freed from having to make a certain impression or create a false front. Humility places within us a desire for people to know us as we are, not as we hope to be and not as we think they want us to be or even as we think we should be. Real growth cannot begin until we come to this point.
Just before the old place went over the river so to speak, someone...I think it was Prax, started a thread on the subject of humility and pride. As I recall, it was still on page one, so I thought perhaps we could revisit this subject.
I will begin by rerunning a few quotes by the excellent book Sis. Felicity suggested to me a little over a year ago. The book is Seeking The Face Of God by Gary L. Thomas, and he writes of knowing God in a more perfect way. It is an excellent description of true inner holiness and humility and I highly recommend it.
Let us begin with an excerpt for your discussion and consideration...
He quotes the 15th century philosopher, Blaise Pascal, Knowing God without knowing our own wretchedness makes for pride. Knowing our own wretchedness without knowing God makes for despair. Knowing Jesus Christ strikes the balance because He shows us both God and our own wretchedness.
Mr. Thomas writes, We can pretend we are humble just as we can pretend we are holy, but true humility cannot be manufactured. Humility is rooted in truth, not pretense. Therefore, we need an objective standard by which we can judge ourselves, or better, allow God to judge us...
Humility is at root a celebration of our freedom in Christ; we are freed from having to make a certain impression or create a false front. Humility places within us a desire for people to know us as we are, not as we hope to be and not as we think they want us to be or even as we think we should be. Real growth cannot begin until we come to this point.I agree with the quotes.
I think there is some misunderstanding on the part of many about pride. The Bible ALWAYS refers to pride as sin and NEVER presents a "good" kind of pride. To say that we're "proud" of this or that person or accomplishment is sin because pride is always sin. One can be pleased with this or that person or accomplishment but we must never be proud.
I agree with the quotes.
I think there is some misunderstanding on the part of many about pride. The Bible ALWAYS refers to pride as sin and NEVER presents a "good" kind of pride. To say that we're "proud" of this or that person or accomplishment is sin because pride is always sin. One can be pleased with this or that person or accomplishment but we must never be proud.
Hmmm...
Praxeas
02-20-2007, 02:48 PM
This is a good thread. I'd like to see more quotes
Felidae
02-20-2007, 03:02 PM
I agree with the quotes.
I think there is some misunderstanding on the part of many about pride. The Bible ALWAYS refers to pride as sin and NEVER presents a "good" kind of pride. To say that we're "proud" of this or that person or accomplishment is sin because pride is always sin. One can be pleased with this or that person or accomplishment but we must never be proud.
You are actually saying that we should not appear to be, or place ourselves, above others or be/appear haughty, correct? But, can we feel pleasure or satisfaction over something regarded as highly honorable or creditable? What about having or showing self-respect? May we be full of vigor and spirit? How about treating someone or oneself generously - is that permitted?
whollyHis
02-20-2007, 03:11 PM
I agree with the quotes.
I think there is some misunderstanding on the part of many about pride. The Bible ALWAYS refers to pride as sin and NEVER presents a "good" kind of pride. To say that we're "proud" of this or that person or accomplishment is sin because pride is always sin. One can be pleased with this or that person or accomplishment but we must never be proud.
well then, I sin everyday. I often tell my grand baby that I am proud of her when she accomplishes something new. Just as I did /do my girls...
I got all the laundry folded one day, and expressed my pleasure at having got it done, grand baby said, "Awww, Nonna, I so proud of you!" *smile*
Ronzo
02-20-2007, 03:15 PM
I agree with the quotes.
I think there is some misunderstanding on the part of many about pride. The Bible ALWAYS refers to pride as sin and NEVER presents a "good" kind of pride. To say that we're "proud" of this or that person or accomplishment is sin because pride is always sin. One can be pleased with this or that person or accomplishment but we must never be proud.
Yeah... sure.......................................
Ronzo
02-20-2007, 03:16 PM
well then, I sin everyday. I often tell my grand baby that I am proud of her when she accomplishes something new. Just as I did /do my girls...
I got all the laundry folded one day, and expressed my pleasure at having got it done, grand baby said, "Awww, Nonna, I so proud of you!" *smile*
Nevermind his little diatribe, WH....
This is a good thread. I'd like to see more quotesThank you, Elder...I'm just revisiting what someone else started.
Once our self-view is no longer tied to our own worth but to the worth ascribed to us in God, we can readily admit our shortcomings and begin working on them while we are encouraged that we are not alone in our failings.
While some of us may lack an accurate understanding of our true selves, others know their true selves so well that they spend all their energy trying to put up a false front, thinking some people wouldn't accept them if they knew the truth. This false piety is devastating to true spiritual growth.
BoredOutOfMyMind
02-20-2007, 04:12 PM
Thank you, Elder
:killinme :killinme :killinme
:killinme :killinme :killinme
Why dost thou laugh at me, BOOMMman?! Is the most honorable Prax not an elder?!:dunno
ReformedDave
02-20-2007, 04:14 PM
Heart Corruptions
O God, may Thy Spirit speak in me that I may speak to thee. I have no merit, let the merit of Jesus stand for me. I am undeserving, but I look to Thy tender mercy. I am full of infirmities, wants, sin; Thou art full of grace.
I confess my sin, my frequent sin, my willful sin; all my powers of body and soul are defiled: a fountain of pollution is deep within my nature. There are chambers of foul images within my being; I have gone from one odious room to another, walked in a no-man's-land of dangerous imaginations, pried into the secrets of my fallen nature.
I am utterly ashamed that I am what I am in myself; I have no green shoot in me nor fruit, but thorns and thistles; I am a fading leaf that the wind drives away; I live bare and barren as a winter tree, unprofitable, fit to be hewn down and burnt. Lord, dost Thou have mercy on me?
Thou hast struck a heavy blow at my pride, at the false god of self, and I lie in pieces before Thee. But Thou hast given me another master and lord, Thy Son, Jesus, and now my heart is turned towards holiness, my life speeds as an arrow from a bow towards complete obedience to Thee. Help me in all my doings to put down sin and to humble pride. Save me from the love of the world and the pride of life, from everything that is natural to fallen man, and let Christ's nature be seen in me day by day. Grant me grace to bear Thy will without repining, and delight to be not only chiseled, squared, or fashioned, but separated from the old rock where I have been embedded so long, and lifted from the quarry to the upper air, where I may be built in Christ for ever.
Felidae
02-21-2007, 02:21 PM
You are actually saying that we should not appear to be, or place ourselves, above others or be/appear haughty, correct? But, can we feel pleasure or satisfaction over something regarded as highly honorable or creditable? What about having or showing self-respect? May we be full of vigor and spirit? How about treating someone or oneself generously - is that permitted?
The point I was trying to make was that what you are calling "pride" (the biblical definition) differs from what others here are calling "pride" (the definition which comes from the dictionary). I don't believe anyone here places themselves above others in a haughty or arrogant way. But they feel pleasure over a thing or person that they regard highly.
COOPER
02-21-2007, 02:23 PM
:bliss i am very proud to be humble.
rgcraig
02-21-2007, 02:25 PM
The point I was trying to make was that what you are calling "pride" (the biblical definition) differs from what others here are calling "pride" (the definition which comes from the dictionary). I don't believe anyone here places themselves above others in a haughty or arrogant way. But they feel pleasure over a thing or person that they regard highly.
One of my first posts on FCF was about this and self-esteem. Roxie ate my lunch! She was very against any type of pride or self-esteem.
Maybe it's the attitude behind the word, but I'm proud of my kids and I don't think that's a sin.
Felidae
02-21-2007, 02:28 PM
One of my first posts on FCF was about this and self-esteem. Roxie ate my lunch! She was very against any type of pride or self-esteem.
Maybe it's the attitude behind the word, but I'm proud of my kids and I don't think that's a sin.
I'm proud of my kids, too. But I'm not haughty or arrogant. I feel generous & pleasure towards them! Thus, I'm "proud."
rgcraig
02-21-2007, 02:32 PM
I'm proud of my kids, too. But I'm not haughty or arrogant. I feel generous & pleasure towards them! Thus, I'm "proud."
Exactly!
Arphaxad
02-21-2007, 04:05 PM
:killinme :killinme :killinme
Thank you, Elder...I'm just revisiting what someone else started
:killinme :killinme :killinme :killinme :killinme :killinme
Thank you, Elder...I'm just revisiting what someone else started
:killinme :killinme :killinme :killinme :killinme :killinme
Why are you brothers laughing at me?! Is Prax not an elder?!
One of my first posts on FCF was about this and self-esteem. Roxie ate my lunch! She was very against any type of pride or self-esteem.
Maybe it's the attitude behind the word, but I'm proud of my kids and I don't think that's a sin.
It isn't, girl!!
Arphaxad
02-21-2007, 04:14 PM
Why are you brothers laughing at me?! Is Prax not an elder?!
it depends, what do you mean by elder?:dunno
it depends, what do you mean by elder?:dunno
I spent almost 24 years in the COOLJC and in the 'Black' church, ordained ministers are elders...in other words, I thought Prax was a preacher.
Arphaxad
02-21-2007, 04:58 PM
I spent almost 24 years in the COOLJC and in the 'Black' church, ordained ministers are elders...in other words, I thought Prax was a preacher.
nah, he,s not a liscenced minister, he knows a lot though. We shared an apt. for like 3 yrs before I moved out of town.
hammondb3klingon1
02-21-2007, 05:01 PM
Klingons DO NOT do humility. But we are licensed ministers.
Arphaxad
02-21-2007, 05:04 PM
Klingons DO NOT do humility. But we are licensed ministers.
Bejor for Bejorans!
nah, he,s not a liscenced minister, he knows a lot though. We shared an apt. for like 3 yrs before I moved out of town.
Ahhh...okay, thank you...
Praxeas
02-21-2007, 07:43 PM
:killinme :killinme :killinme
You got a problem wit dat stinky? :drawguns
Praxeas
02-21-2007, 07:44 PM
:bliss i am very proud to be humble.
:-)
RevDWW
02-21-2007, 08:57 PM
1 John 2:15 - 16 (KJV) 15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
alazoneia
Thayer Definition:
1) empty, braggart talk
2) an insolent and empty assurance, which trusts in its own power and resources and shamefully despises and violates divine laws and human rights
3) an impious and empty presumption which trusts in the stability of earthy things
Prov 16:18 (KJV)
18Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall.
gâ’ôn
BDB Definition:
1) exaltation, majesty, pride
1a) majesty, exaltation, excellence
1a1) of nations
1a2) of God
1a3) of the Jordan
1b) pride, arrogance (bad sense)
go'-bah
From H1361; elation, grandeur, arrogance:—excellency, haughty, height, high, loftiness, pride.
Seems these are pretty clear cut.
hammondb3klingon1
02-21-2007, 09:25 PM
Dude that was deeeeep!
RevDWW
02-21-2007, 09:28 PM
Dude that was deeeeep!
Don't mock me Klingy............:drawguns......:tease ........:killinme
hammondb3klingon1
02-21-2007, 09:56 PM
I am not mocking ... just ....... Humoring Yeah:)
well then, I sin everyday. I often tell my grand baby that I am proud of her when she accomplishes something new. Just as I did /do my girls...
I got all the laundry folded one day, and expressed my pleasure at having got it done, grand baby said, "Awww, Nonna, I so proud of you!" *smile*
Yes, pride is sin. Be pleased but not proud.
You are actually saying that we should not appear to be, or place ourselves, above others or be/appear haughty, correct? But, can we feel pleasure or satisfaction over something regarded as highly honorable or creditable? What about having or showing self-respect? May we be full of vigor and spirit? How about treating someone or oneself generously - is that permitted?
I'm saying that pride is sin and when we say we are "proud" of this or that, we are committing sin. We can be pleased with something or someone but we must not be proud of them.
As for your use of "appear to be," that's a subjective phrase based on perception. Perception is not fact.
Felidae
02-22-2007, 09:38 AM
I'm saying that pride is sin and when we say we are "proud" of this or that, we are committing sin. We can be pleased with something or someone but we must not be proud of them.
As for your use of "appear to be," that's a subjective phrase based on perception. Perception is not fact.
You are equating the biblical definition with the dictionary's definition. They differ. Being "proud" of my children - as described by Webster - is NOT a sin.
One of my first posts on FCF was about this and self-esteem. Roxie ate my lunch! She was very against any type of pride or self-esteem.
Maybe it's the attitude behind the word, but I'm proud of my kids and I don't think that's a sin.The Bible (the only standard for our lives) always refers to pride as something sinful. It does not set forth a "good" kind of pride. As for your statement, "I don't think that's a sin," it doesn't matter what you think, it matters what God's word says.
The Bible always refers to pride as sin; self-esteem is pride; therefore, self-esteem is sin. Further, the Bible never tells us to have self-esteem, it tells us to esteem others as better than ourselves.
You are equating the biblical definition with the dictionary's definition. They differ. Being "proud" of my children - as described by Webster - is NOT a sin.The only definition that matters is the Bible's definition.
Felidae
02-22-2007, 09:44 AM
The only definition that matters is the Bible's definition.
Then use only the Bible's definition of pride. Say that being arrogant, haughty, etc. is sin; but that feeling generous and pleased is not. Pride has more than one meaning, Chan.
Felidae
02-22-2007, 09:46 AM
The Bible (the only standard for our lives) always refers to pride as something sinful. It does not set forth a "good" kind of pride. As for your statement, "I don't think that's a sin," it doesn't matter what you think, it matters what God's word says.
The Bible always refers to pride as sin; self-esteem is pride; therefore, self-esteem is sin. Further, the Bible never tells us to have self-esteem, it tells us to esteem others as better than ourselves.
Can we have self-respect? Are we worthy of respect? May we love ourselves?
Then use only the Bible's definition of pride. Say that being arrogant, haughty, etc. is sin; but that feeling generous and pleased is not. Pride has more than one meaning, Chan.Pride has ONLY the biblical meaning. Otherwise, it is not pride. It doesn't matter what Webster or Oxford University or any of those other dictionary publishers say, it only matters what God's word says.
Can we have self-respect? Are we worthy of respect? May we love ourselves?Self-respect is to think of ourselves more highly than we ought. The Bible never tells us to love ourselves (it's automatically assumed that we do, since we have a sinful nature). We are not worthy of respect or anything except for eternity in the lake of fire. That God allows us to even draw breath from one moment to the next is entirely by His grace. That He goes even further and allows some of us to have a relationship with Him is amazing grace!
Felidae
02-22-2007, 10:10 AM
Pride has ONLY the biblical meaning. Otherwise, it is not pride. It doesn't matter what Webster or Oxford University or any of those other dictionary publishers say, it only matters what God's word says.
You are completely incorrect, Chan. No one here (forgive me for speaking for others) is haughtily saying that they arrogantly think of their children as being superior to others' children when they say they are "proud" of them.
What they ARE saying (again, I'm speaking for them - sorry) is that they are very pleased and delighted with their children. (This is ALSO the definition of "pride.")
Some words DO have more than one meaning. "Pride" being one of them.
You are accusing parents of being lofty/haughty.
You are completely incorrect, Chan. No one here (forgive me for speaking for others) is haughtily saying that they arrogantly think of their children as being superior to others' children when they say they are "proud" of them.
What they ARE saying (again, I'm speaking for them - sorry) is that they are very pleased and delighted with their children. (This is ALSO the definition of "pride.")
Some words DO have more than one meaning. "Pride" being one of them.
You are accusing parents of being lofty/haughty.By saying you are proud of them, you are committing sin because the Bible says that pride is sin. It doesn't matter that this wicked world attaches other meanings to the word "pride," it only matters what the Bible says about this concept called "pride." Be pleased and delighted but do not be proud.
Felidae
02-22-2007, 10:17 AM
Self-respect is to think of ourselves more highly than we ought. The Bible never tells us to love ourselves (it's automatically assumed that we do, since we have a sinful nature). We are not worthy of respect or anything except for eternity in the lake of fire. That God allows us to even draw breath from one moment to the next is entirely by His grace. That He goes even further and allows some of us to have a relationship with Him is amazing grace!
Self-respect is to treat ourselves (the temple of the Holy Ghost) with dignity.
Please show me the scriptures which states that it is automatically assumed we love ourselves AND that it is BECAUSE we have a sinful nature.
Felidae
02-22-2007, 10:24 AM
By saying you are proud of them, you are committing sin because the Bible says that pride is sin. It doesn't matter that this wicked world attaches other meanings to the word "pride," it only matters what the Bible says about this concept called "pride." Be pleased and delighted but do not be proud.
I believe it was the translators who ascribed the word "pride" to haughty, lofty, pompous etc. You are making an issue out of a non-issue.
I suppose it is a sin to call a group of lions a "pride;" as ONLY the "biblical definition" matters and the Bible never called a group of lions a "pride."
Felicity
02-22-2007, 10:29 AM
We need to think of ourselves the same way Christ thinks of us.
Felidae
02-22-2007, 10:31 AM
We need to think of ourselves the same way Christ thinks of us.
Which is?
Self-respect is to treat ourselves (the temple of the Holy Ghost) with dignity.
Please show me the scriptures which states that it is automatically assumed we love ourselves AND that it is BECAUSE we have a sinful nature.It is assumed that we love ourselves in the passage "Love your neighbor as you love yourself." Self-love comes from the sinful nature because the Bible commands us to love one another and the kind of love we're supposed to have is self-sacrificing. No one who loves himself sacrifices himself. Love, according to 1 Corinthians 13 is not self-seeking but when we love ourselves, we are self-seeking.
I believe it was the translators who ascribed the word "pride" to haughty, lofty, pompous etc. You are making an issue out of a non-issue.No, it is not a non-issue. It is taking a word that the Bible uses one way and trying to somehow "redeem" the word to make it into something virtuous.
I suppose it is a sin to call a group of lions a "pride;" as ONLY the "biblical definition" matters and the Bible never called a group of lions a "pride."A group of lions was probably called a pride because of certain characteristics observed in lions. But it is inaccurate to refer to lions that way. It isn't saying the word "pride" that is sin, it's having pride (being proud) that is sin.
Felicity
02-22-2007, 11:09 AM
Which is?God's Word is like a mirror. We look into it and see ourselves as we really are and as He views us.
hammondb3klingon1
02-22-2007, 06:59 PM
I am no more humble than my talents require.
Oscar Levant (1906 - 1972)
If I only had a little humility, I'd be perfect. -Ted turner
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