Dave Bernard addresses beards

[freeatlast]

I heard from a reliable source yesterday that Br. Bernard addressed the issue of facial hair on men at a recent symposium.

I don't have a direct quote. Only that he said we (the UPCI) have been all wrong on the issue and it needs to to stop.

In our ranks, isn't this like the pope saying, it's OK now?

[SDG]

I heard from a reliable source yesterday that Br. Bernard addressed the issue of facial hair on men at a recent symposium.

I don't have a direct quote. Only that he said we (the UPCI) have been all wrong on the issue and it needs to to stop.

In our ranks, isn't this like the pope saying, it's OK now?

If this is true ... he can give up any aspirations of being the next Supt ... especially if the UC's win out in Sept.

[ManOfWord]

I heard from a reliable source yesterday that Br. Bernard addressed the issue of facial hair on men at a recent symposium.

I don't have a direct quote. Only that he said we (the UPCI) have been all wrong on the issue and it needs to to stop.

In our ranks, isn't this like the pope saying, it's OK now?

You mean it's taken him all these years to come to THAT conclusion?

Wow......that certainly gives me a warm fuzzy feeling towards his scholarship! :D

[vrblackwell]

He is right if this was said. I personally think that beards are gross looking. However, that is a far cry from having anything to do with right or wrong.

[Ronzo]

Jesus was gross looking. Wow.

(tongue in cheek)

[freeatlast]

I've had a beard now (well a goatee and mustache) now for a couple months.

I grew it in memeory of all the men we have run off with our hair-itcal teaching of no facial allowed on Christins.

[SDG]

If brother Bernard indeed said this .... it's MONUMENTAL.

[ThePastorsCoach]

goatee Here - What Is Gross About It???????????????

[Theophilus]

Jesus was gross looking. Wow.

(tongue in cheek)

You just did beat me too it.

Funny how the Creator put it there in the first place....what was He thinking?? :bubble

[Rico]

If this is true then it will probly be a sin in 30 years not to have a beard. LOL!

[Ronzo]

You just did beat me too it.

Funny how the Creator put it there in the first place....what was He thinking?? :bubble
He was wrong!

He created something culturally unacceptable by "his own people".

HOW DARE HE!!!!!!!

[Felicity]

I heard from a reliable source yesterday that Br. Bernard addressed the issue of facial hair on men at a recent symposium.

I don't have a direct quote. Only that he said we (the UPCI) have been all wrong on the issue and it needs to to stop.

In our ranks, isn't this like the pope saying, it's OK now?Wow! One of the UPC's leading theologians comes to amazing conclusion .......

~FACIAL HAIR IS NOT A SIN~

Amazing!

:heeheehee

[Ronzo]

If this is true then it will probly be a sin in 30 years not to have a beard. LOL!

"So let it be written... so let it be done!"

[Ronzo]

Wow! One of the UPC's leading theologians comes to amazing conclusion .......

~FACIAL HAIR IS NOT A SIN~

Amazing!

:heeheehee
And he's the president of their "graduate" institution.

Good to know...

[freeatlast]

If this is true then it will probly be a sin in 30 years not to have a beard. LOL!

Well there is more scripture supporting beards, than scripture that would imply no beards.

[Rico]

"So let it be written... so let it be done!"

I was just thinking about how rule happy some people are...........if this takes hold I can see it now.............a sea of nothing but beards at GC, the UCs pounding their fists on their podiums demanding the men grow beards or split the pit..........the elightened ones refusing to grow them...........:lol

[ManOfWord]

"So let it be written... so let it be done!"

Thanks, Yul.........:lol

[Ronzo]

Thanks, Yul.........:lol
Well, he wore a funny hat and he was clean shaven after all... ;)

[vrblackwell]

goatee Here - What Is Gross About It???????????????

Nothing, I am speaking more about full long, food catching beards.

[ThePastorsCoach]

Maybe they should now REQUIRE beards and just how to shape and wear them - it could be another major Standard for the men - it could be another control issue for them and if the men do NOT grow them - they could scream at them - Fags, Queers, Sissy's - You are all going to hell if you do not have facial hair. I think the Control Police would LOVE this!

[ManOfWord]

Well, he wore a funny hat and he was clean shaven after all... ;)

He was one of the first completely clean shaven face and heads!!!

[Rico]

Nothing, I am speaking more about full long, food catching beards.


Watch it now! I happen to have one of them food catchers and it comes in pretty handy at times! :D

[Ronzo]

Nothing, I am speaking more about full long, food catching beards.
Flavah savah!

[Ronzo]

He was one of the first completely clean shaven face and heads!!!

The perfect apostolic. REALLY short hair and clean shaven face.

Poster child.

[Felicity]

And he's the president of their "graduate" institution.

Good to know...He's known all along of course that there's no prohibition against men having a beard. For some reason he feels free now to make a public declaration.

Hmmmm..........


:)

[freeatlast]

Flavah savah!

:lol:lol now that's funny.

[Felicity]

Flavah savah! Gross!

*shivers*

[Theophilus]

Watch it now! I happen to have one of them food catchers and it comes in pretty handy at times! :D

Yeah...like Aaron's:

Ps 133:2 - It is like the precious ointment upon the head, that ran down upon the beard, even Aaron's beard: that went down to the skirts of his garments;

[vrblackwell]

Watch it now! I happen to have one of them food catchers and it comes in pretty handy at times! :D

I know you do Rico, I was actually going to use you as an example but thought it best not. However, since you piped up and said it yourself.

I think the ones like Rico's are gross.:lol

[chseeads]

If brother Bernard indeed said this .... it's MONUMENTAL.

Well, the reason he said it was probably to make all those Jews feel welcome into the ranks. :haloplug

[Old Paths]

I heard from a reliable source yesterday that Br. Bernard addressed the issue of facial hair on men at a recent symposium.

I don't have a direct quote. Only that he said we (the UPCI) have been all wrong on the issue and it needs to to stop.

In our ranks, isn't this like the pope saying, it's OK now?



You "heard".

"I don't have a direct quote".

"No documentation".


Hmmmm J/W under normal circumstances, would this be considered gossip?

:sshhh

[Rico]

I know you do Rico, I was actually going to use you as an example but thought it best not. However, since you piped up and said it yourself.

I think the ones like Rico's are gross.:lol



:lol THAT DONE IT!! Where's my pistol? :lol

[Rico]

Well, the reason he said it was probably to make all those Jews feel welcome into the ranks. :haloplug

That's right....the Jewish Revival.........:D

[vrblackwell]

:lol THAT DONE IT!! Where's my pistol? :lol

Probablly lost somewhere in that beard.:killinme

[freeatlast]

He's known all along of course that there's no prohibition against men having a beard. For some reason he feels free now to make a public declaration.

Hmmmm..........


:)

I'm not sure if he said it in public addressof the sympossium or in one of them after church coversations.

I think it was in the sympossium, the way I heard it.

I guess it doesn't matter if the he said it or not. Most of us allready know there is NO direction given in the bible for a man to be clean shaven.

Some of us just can't admit it.

[Theophilus]

:lol THAT DONE IT!! Where's my pistol? :lol

Relax...at least you don't have a little limp-wristed boy toy beard...:heeheehee

[SDG]

He's known all along of course that there's no prohibition against men having a beard. For some reason he feels free now to make a public declaration.

Hmmmm..........


:)

Oh ... that's right ... we're talking about the non-bible based and manual-based requirement on men that want to be used by God ...

[Rico]

Probablly lost somewhere in that beard.:killinme

I'd post a pic of it but some people around here would have a field day with it, so I won't. I got a Grizzly Adams thingahappenin.

[Sam]

Doth not nature itself teach you that a man should have a beard?

Isn't the clean shaven look following after the "world" many years ago?

[ChTatum]

C'mon, Rico, don't be skeered.......

I ain't!

[rrford]

For crying out loud. Some of you must have never read his books or looked at his operating policy on his website. The man has never said beards were a sin. And I have known him for 25 years. Not one time in class or through the years did he ever state wearing a beard was a sin.

This is not some new Bernard Revelation.

[SDG]

Would he tolerate a minister in his district wearing one ????

[ManOfWord]

Would he allow his ministers to wear them since there is no biblical prohibition?

[Theophilus]

Would he allow his ministers to wear them since there is no biblical prohibition?

Thou knowest...

[SDG]

Thou knowest...

This is where the contradiction lies ... it's a FARCE .... [ I think I've over-used this word today]

[ManOfWord]

Thou knowest...

I take it that the answer would be a "NO."

[Theophilus]

This is where the contradiction lies ... it's a FARCE .... [ I think I've over-used this word today]

Yeah...wouldn't it be nice if for once the contradiction would tell the truth.

[Felicity]

For crying out loud. Some of you must have never read his books or looked at his operating policy on his website. The man has never said beards were a sin. And I have known him for 25 years. Not one time in class or through the years did he ever state wearing a beard was a sin.

This is not some new Bernard Revelation.*sigh*

So what's the deal then? Why was this brought up? :didimiss

[Theophilus]

I take it that the answer would be a "NO."

Thou sayest...;)

[Whole Hearted]

Never have care much for Benard.

[SDG]

If he is elected the next GS .... does he do the responsible thing and eliminate this extrabiblical teaching from PPH literature????

[SDG]

Never have care much for Benard.

What will you do if he's the next GS????

[Sam]

Well, if Bro. Bernard actually said facial hair is not sinful, I am fearful for his soul. He's gone Charismatic. He's lost all respect and credibility. He's heading down that slippery slope faster than a ball bearing on a greased plank. He's heading for ..... (can't say it on a Christian forum).

[Whole Hearted]

What will you do if he's the next GS????

I'm not sure what the future holds for me and the UPC. But one thing is for sure no matter what Bernard does I am going to hold on the the old paths and preach the truth.

[SDG]

I'm not sure what the future holds for me and the UPC. But one thing is for sure no matter what Bernard does I am going to hold on the the old paths and preach the truth.

You've been dilly dallying for a while WH ...

[Theophilus]

I looked up Brother Bernard amongst the saints and found that he has started living up to his convictions...there is yet hope.

http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/NGSPOD07/115429~Portrait-of-a-Saint-Bernard-Dog-Posters.jpg

[Theophilus]

I'm not sure what the future holds for me and the UPC. But one thing is for sure no matter what Bernard does I am going to hold on the the old paths and preach the truth.

The old paths of the upci or the old paths of the church?

[tv1a]

More dillying than dallying.
You've been dilly dallying for a while WH ...

[tv1a]

If you leave the upc, will you still use the manual as your Bible?

I'm not sure what the future holds for me and the UPC. But one thing is for sure no matter what Bernard does I am going to hold on the the old paths and preach the truth.

[Arphaxad]

He's known all along of course that there's no prohibition against men having a beard. For some reason he feels free now to make a public declaration.

Hmmmm..........


:)

Maybe he wants to have one, huh?



ARPH:doggyrun

[Scott Hutchinson]

I don't want a beard but I love you guys that have one.

[ChicagoPastor]

If he is elected the next GS .... does he do the responsible thing and eliminate this extrabiblical teaching from PPH literature????

Oh God,
If TV passes this year and then in a few years we allow ministers to have facial hair all the Ultra-Cons will shout from the rooftops that their prophecies are coming true. The UPC has gone totally charasmatic!!!!

[tv1a]

Call me strange, but there are bigger issues than facial hair.

[Hoovie]

I didn't see his recent comments, but I have heard and read DKB make statements over the years that could be construed as favorable on acceptance of beards.


Does anyone have the wording on this lastest comment?

[Hoovie]

Call me strange, but there are bigger issues than facial hair.

TRue but since a non-issue has been made an issue it must be addressed.

[Hoovie]

For crying out loud. Some of you must have never read his books or looked at his operating policy on his website. The man has never said beards were a sin. And I have known him for 25 years. Not one time in class or through the years did he ever state wearing a beard was a sin.

This is not some new Bernard Revelation.

Exactly.

[Hoovie]

Would he tolerate a minister in his district wearing one ????

Personally I think he would.

[Hoovie]

Never have care much for Benard.

Sad, you would say this in context and topic of this thread. It makes you out to be a radical.

[Steve Epley]

I was asked once "Can a man go to Heaven with a beard?" I answered "Not from here.":club

[SDG]

Personally I think he would.

He might but the rest of the STD would be in an uproar .... he has indicated personally that reform is needed ... although in a broad sense.

[Hoovie]

I was asked once "Can a man go to Heaven with a beard?" I answered "Not from here.":club

:killinme:killinme:killinmeOf course we know you don't have that kind of authority.

[SDG]

:killinme:killinme:killinmeOf course we know you don't have that authority.

BUT HE THINKS HE DOES

[Hoovie]

He might but the rest of the STD would be in an uproar .... he has indicated personally that reform is needed ... although in a broad sense.

There ya have it! Beards have some sort of strange connection to STDs!

[Nahum]

This thread is funny. DKB has said this for years. Go read his book "In Search of Holiness". It says the same thing this thread claims, and it was written years ago.

BTW, the scariest and most telling book ever written by a UPCI author is his book titled "Understanding the Articles of Faith".

So now we need a manual to explain the manual? ARRRGGGHHH!

[Steve Epley]

:killinme:killinme:killinmeOf course we know you don't have that kind of authority.

I do here.

[Hoovie]

I do here.

Do you have any men in your church?

[Steve Epley]

Do you have any men in your church?

About 35 0r 40. But NO facial hair. I am the pastor here I realize most folks on here have pastors who are afraid of their shadows. But I pastor here. Not boasting or being a smart aleck but that is my job. And I draw the line. Just NOT going to have facial hair on the saints here.

[Theophilus]

I know where this is going...

[Hoovie]

About 35 0r 40. But NO facial hair. I am the pastor here I realize most folks on here have pastors who are afraid of their shadows. But I pastor here. Not boasting or being a smart aleck but that is my job. And I draw the line. Just NOT going to have facial hair on the saints here.

Is it possible you might change your mind in say 15 or 20 years... Or do you consider this an unchanging truth??

[Sherri]

About 35 0r 40. But NO facial hair. I am the pastor here I realize most folks on here have pastors who are afraid of their shadows. But I pastor here. Not boasting or being a smart aleck but that is my job. And I draw the line. Just NOT going to have facial hair on the saints here.
Would you actually ask one to leave your church if he decided to grow one?

[Michael The Disciple]

About 35 0r 40. But NO facial hair. I am the pastor here I realize most folks on here have pastors who are afraid of their shadows. But I pastor here. Not boasting or being a smart aleck but that is my job. And I draw the line. Just NOT going to have facial hair on the saints here.

A good example of the doctrines and commandments of men.

[Steve Epley]

Is it possible you might change your mind in say 15 or 20 years... Or do you consider this an unchanging truth??

No sir I am NOT changing my mind. It hasn't changed on this in the last 40 years why should I change now or later. I do not claim it is an unchanging truth I am only saying I do NOT allow men to have facial in this church and be recieved as a member. NOPE not going to change.

[Steve Epley]

Would you actually ask one to leave your church if he decided to grow one?

Yes I would in a New York's second. I am tolerant of new folks and have never embarassed a man publicly but I just tell them we do not have facial hair here. There are Pentecostal churches around that would be glad to have them so I say Loose them and let them go. By the way I have never lost a man that I know over the facial hair issue.

[Thad]

Epley

you fellowshipped PAW back years ago when you considered them them still saved and they had facial hair always. So, what about them? we they lost yet you fellowshipped?

[Trouvere]

Just my opinion but I don't like a beard on a man.My dad had a moustache forever and my husband did before we married.I was glad when he shaved it
as it dropped years off his face.I hated when dad kissed my cheek because that old picky moustance got me every time.The church we attend does not
preach against facial hair and its a UPC church.I don't ever remember anyone
preaching "Shave your face." Does anyone preach that? If anyone thinks every UPC church does then they are wrong.

For the Brother who said he did not like Brother Bernard.Do you even know him? Is it his teaching you do not like?

[Jekyll]

You "heard".

"I don't have a direct quote".

"No documentation".


Hmmmm J/W under normal circumstances, would this be considered gossip?

:sshhh

For crying out loud. Some of you must have never read his books or looked at his operating policy on his website. The man has never said beards were a sin. And I have known him for 25 years. Not one time in class or through the years did he ever state wearing a beard was a sin.

This is not some new Bernard Revelation.

No responses, no accountability...

Hmmm new thread idea :evilglee

[Thad]

I would not wear one but I don't believe others are lost for something Jesus himself wore. can you ?
we as white people view facial hair from a standpoint of unlcean, unkept, rebellion against leadership. I know how that was the perception birthed out of the free Love era. but understand, that many other ethnic groups were never part of this whole rebellion movement and cannot relate to it at all therefore to tell them they are doing it out of rebellion makes no sense. anyone understand ?

[SDG]

I would not wear one but I don't believe others are lost for something Jesus himself wore. can you ?
we as white people view facial hair from a standpoint of unlcean, unkept, rebellion against leadership. I know how that was the perception birthed out of the free Love era. but understand, that many other ethnic groups were never part of this whole rebellion movement and cannot relate to it at all therefore to tell them they are doing it out of rebellion makes no sense. anyone understand ?

Is this what they call WHITE GUILT????

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

Here is a 70 yr old photo and NONE of them have a beard either.

http://www.sfgate.com/c/pictures/2007/05/27/mn_bridge27_ph7.jpg

[Jekyll]

Here is a 70 yr old photo and NONE of them have a beard either.



Didn't know they had computers back then...:laffatu

[SDG]

Here is a 70 yr old photo and NONE of them have a beard either.

http://www.sfgate.com/c/pictures/2007/05/27/mn_bridge27_ph7.jpg

How many fornicators, liars, cheats or crooks in this pic???? Anyone???

[SDG]

Any photographs of men during bible times Boom???

[Thad]

Is this what they call WHITE GUILT????

how do you come to this conclusion ?

[SDG]

how do you come to this conclusion ?

Just a random arbitrary thought .... that's all. :bubble

[Thad]

Just a random arbitrary thought .... that's all. :bubble


nothing to be guilty about I just know this because I have been around both sides. those who were raised strictly around UPC people, there world view and mind set is strictly white. If you were raised in an a miexed ethnic community, your views often varies

[Jekyll]

A good example of the doctrines and commandments of men.

Big deal, he is the pastor of that church, you have a problem with this??

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

Didn't know they had computers back then...:laffatu

No and the engineering amazes those with computers NOW.

Some old fashioned ideas are still very applicable today.

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

Any photographs of men during bible times Boom???

This has to rate up there with classic questions that simply deserve no reply.

Since the camera was invented sans 1825, some 1750 yrs after Bible Times.... you can figure out the rest. :bubble

[mizpeh]

nothing to be guilty about I just know this because I have been around both sides. those who were raised strictly around UPC people, there world view and mind set is strictly white. If you were raised in an a miexed ethnic community, your views often varies

The two UPC churches I attended, one in England and one in Maryland were both mixed. More black than white. I think your stereotyping.

[SDG]

The two UPC churches I attended, one in England and one in Maryland were both mixed. More black than white. I think your stereotyping.

Thad doesnt realize that there is a world beyond the WD ... us northeasterners ... saw a different church .... Mizpeh.

[berkeley]

white guilt... hahaha... good one

[Michael The Disciple]

Big deal, he is the pastor of that church, you have a problem with this??

Does that give him the right to teach false doctrine?

[Steve Epley]

Epley

you fellowshipped PAW back years ago when you considered them them still saved and they had facial hair always. So, what about them? we they lost yet you fellowshipped?

I have NEVER said a man was lost for facial hair. However I am the pastor here and responsible for the flock I am over and we are NOT having it here.
I do not allow folks on our platform with facial hair.

[Jekyll]

Does that give him the right to teach false doctrine?

I have NEVER said a man was lost for facial hair. However I am the pastor here and responsible for the flock I am over and we are NOT having it here.
I do not allow folks on our platform with facial hair.

Not all principles and laws in a church are straight out of the bible...are you a pastor? Do you know what it takes to hold a church of imperfect people together?

False doctrine isn't false because you say it is so...neither does your implication that he teaches false doctrine hold a drop of water

[Steve Epley]

Does that give him the right to teach false doctrine?

What false doctrine?????????????? It is NOT doctrine at all true or false. A doctrine is a set teaching. I am NOT teaching folks facial hair is a sin. I just tell them I am the pastor and this is a pastorial judgment and we are not having facial hair here.

[SDG]

Not all principles and laws in a church are straight out of the bible...are you a pastor? Do you know what it takes to hold a church of imperfect people together?

False doctrine isn't false because you say it is so...neither does your implication that he teaches false doctrine hold a drop of water

Extrabiblical doctrine is false doctrine .... Epley simply doesnt want to change cuz he doesn't want to change .... he has no biblical basis for this position other than NOT IN MY CHURCH .... NEWSFLASH ... its not HIS CHURCH.

[SDG]

Example of set teaching [doctrine]:

I just tell them I am the pastor and this is a pastorial judgment and we are not having facial hair here.

How long have you been teaching this???

[Jekyll]

Extrabiblical doctrine is false doctrine .... Epley simply doesnt want to change cuz he doesn't want to change .... he has no biblical basis for this position other than NOT IN MY CHURCH .... NEWSFLASH ... its not HIS CHURCH.

All the weenie wobbles come out of the woodwork when a man of strength holds his God given authority out for all to see and couldn't care less what the mindless voices think...

Good man, God bless Bro. Epley!!

[SDG]

All the weenie wobbles come out of the woodwork when a man of strength holds his God given authority out for all to see and couldn't care less what the mindless voices think...

Good man, God bless Bro. Epley!!

What you view as strength ... is easily perceived as PRIDE.

[Michael The Disciple]

What false doctrine?????????????? It is NOT doctrine at all true or false. A doctrine is a set teaching. I am NOT teaching folks facial hair is a sin. I just tell them I am the pastor and this is a pastorial judgment and we are not having facial hair here.

So your words are more potent than those of scripture? Study to show yourself approved unto GOD. But if people wish to follow the teachings of men apart from scripture its their right.

Then I would not want to have to bear hearing a sermon by them about some denominational Church that doesnt teach the Bible.

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

Example of set teaching [doctrine]:

I just tell them I am the pastor and this is a pastorial judgment and we are not having facial hair here.

How long have you been teaching this???

Let me try- since he has been Pastoring them?

[SDG]

Let me try- since he has been Pastoring them?

SOUNDS LIKE A SET TEACHING TO ME ...

[Jekyll]

What you view as strength ... is easily perceived as PRIDE.

So your words are more potent than those of scripture? Study to show yourself approved unto GOD. But if people wish to follow the teachings of men apart from scripture its their right.

Then I would not want to have to bear hearing a sermon by them about some denominational Church that doesnt teach the Bible.

:laffatuHe's the pastor and you're not...nanny nanny boo hoo...

[SDG]

:laffatuHe's the pastor and you're not...nanny nanny boo hoo...

You're doing a solid job cheerleading false doctrine ... nanananana.

[seguidordejesus]

SOUNDS LIKE A SET TEACHING TO ME ...

Now now Dan, just calm down...here's a Haagen-Dazs for the pit bull :club

[SDG]

Now now Dan, just calm down...here's a Haagen-Dazs for the pit bull :club

I always have time for Haagen-Daaz ...

[Jekyll]

You're doing a solid job cheerleading false doctrine ... nanananana.
Call for a meeting with a corporate manager in UPS about the dress code for the company...INSIST that it is false man made doctrine see where that'll get you...

[SDG]

Call for a meeting with a corporate manager in UPS about the dress code for the company...INSIST that it is false man made doctrine see where that'll get you...

You would rather give a worldly example than sound scripture ... Jekyll that's sad. You have no bible .... zero ...

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

SOUNDS LIKE A SET TEACHING TO ME ...

I guess I was brought up wrong. If my Pastor had told me not to wear green socks on Tuesdays, I would still not be doing that very thing.

Dan, why are you so hot on this, seeing you are clean shaven?

[SDG]

I guess I was brought up wrong. If my Pastor had told me not to wear green socks on Tuesdays, I would still not be doing that very thing.

Dan, why are you so hot on this, seeing you are clean shaven?

I can't for the love of me understand folks that insist on having ALL TRUTH ... BUT refuse to preach the WHOLE TRUTH ....

[Jekyll]

You would rather give a worldly example than sound scripture ... Jekyll that's sad. You have no bible .... zero ...

Again, pull your head out of your...sand box...

Pastoring human people is not always about biblical teaching...of course, you know all about this, right??? I'm sure there were times when you were growing up that daddy announced work day and only a few showed up...oh, the other frustrations of pastoring...

so a pastor makes a leadership decision that you disagree with...I'm sure he'll consult with you next time :killinme

[berkeley]

What you view as strength ... is easily perceived as PRIDE.

Pride has always been the issue re: facial hair. Just who is prideful, the wolf man or the pretty face?

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

I can't for the love of me understand folks that insist on having ALL TRUTH ... BUT refuse to preach the WHOLE TRUTH ....

So does this mean you are growing a beard?!?

[Thad]

I have NEVER said a man was lost for facial hair. However I am the pastor here and responsible for the flock I am over and we are NOT having it here.
I do not allow folks on our platform with facial hair.


okay that's fine. I'm use to being under that Rule code.
I'm okay with abiding by it i always have, BUT i'm just curious, what is your Pastoral reason for it ?? I've been told it looks like the world, like hippies, new agers etc. , Pride (which comes in so many ways). I've also been told it looks unkept. however, If there are people in your audience, who cares if they are unkept or not? a lot of people come frumpy, clothes haven't been ironed, shoes are diryt and unshined,etc.

[Jekyll]

You would rather give a worldly example than sound scripture ... Jekyll that's sad. You have no bible .... zero ...

Tell me, Dan the Bible Answer Man...where does it say in the bible what color the carpet must be? What kind of instruments should a church contain? What should the pulpit look like?

Hmmm?

[SDG]

Again, pull your head out of your...sand box...

Pastoring human people is not always about biblical teaching...of course, you know all about this, right??? I'm sure there were times when you were growing up that daddy announced work day and only a few showed up...oh, the other frustrations of pastoring...

so a pastor makes a leadership decision that you disagree with...I'm sure he'll consult with you next time :killinme

No bible ... no bible .... no bible .... no bible ... NOT THE TRUTH ... and presented as TRUTH ....

God gave man facial hair and you want to get in the way of that ... good job ... JECK .... because you're the pastor ...

Please .....

:laffatu

[Jekyll]

No bible ... no bible .... no bible .... no bible ... NOT THE TRUTH ... and presented as TRUTH ....

God gave man facial hair and you want to get in the way of that ... good job ... JECK .... because you're the pastor ...

Please .....

:laffatu

God did not give all men facial hair

[Thad]

I can't for the love of me understand folks that insist on having ALL TRUTH ... BUT refuse to preach the WHOLE TRUTH ....


dan do you have the whole truth? who has a corner on God ?

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

okay that's fine. I'm use to being under that Rule code.
I'm okay with abiding by it i always have, BUT i'm just curious, what is your Pastoral reason for it ?? I've been told it looks like the world, like hippies, new agers etc. , Pride (which comes in so many ways). I've also been told it looks unkept. however, If there are people in your audience, who cares if they are unkept or not? a lot of people come frumpy, clothes haven't been ironed, shoes are diryt and unshined,etc.


Thad did you see the photo I posted?

It is from the September 1936 SFO paper.

[SDG]

God did not give all men facial hair

You point is ... ???? God made a mistake????

[berkeley]

Tell me, Dan the Bible Answer Man...where does it say in the bible what color the carpet must be? What kind of instruments should a church contain? What should the pulpit look like?

Hmmm?

Decorating a church and telling someone "Hey, you can't go to heaven from here with that facial hair.. it's not a sin.. but I don't want you here if you're not going to shave.."

Yeah, they are the same......

[SDG]

dan do you have the whole truth? who has a corner on God ?

You do apparently ...:sshhh

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

http://www.dilbert.com/comics/dilbert/archive/images/dilbert2073319070529.gif

[Thad]

You do apparently ...:sshhh



no i never claimed such but you implied it

[Jekyll]

Decorating a church and telling someone "Hey, you can't go to heaven from here with that facial hair.. it's not a sin.. but I don't want you here if you're not going to shave.."

Yeah, they are the same......
Too late, Berk...Epley stated above that his teaching is not heaven/hell...

Does anyone honestly believe that Eps would throw a teaching like this out to the people and not justify or clarify it???

[SDG]

Decorating a church and telling someone "Hey, you can't go to heaven from here with that facial hair.. it's not a sin.. but I don't want you here if you're not going to shave.."

Yeah, they are the same......

Jek wants us to equate the mundane with the eternal ....

[berkeley]

Jek wants us to equate the mundane with the eternal ....

and on that note.. it's time for bed.. ttyl doc

[Thad]

Thad did you see the photo I posted?

It is from the September 1936 SFO paper.



yes and the point was ???

[Thad]

Call for a meeting with a corporate manager in UPS about the dress code for the company...INSIST that it is false man made doctrine see where that'll get you...


my brother teaches our new believers and teaches that there are 4 types of standards:

Bible standards

pastoral standards

personal standards

&..... I can't remember the 4th one right now :heeheehee

however, I don't think the correlation between what a pastor does and what corporations demand for pay relates to teaching saints how to live for God.
A platofrm code is one thing but saying you have the same rights as McDonalds and burger king over an entire audience ?

[Jekyll]

You point is ... ???? God made a mistake????

You do apparently ...:sshhh

Ding Ding Ding Ding Ding Ding!!!!!!!

Dan the Bible Answer Man has reverted to form, letting rabbits out of the bag for all to chase, twisting posts, unable to concede the obvious...

:bubblenot gonna let you label Bro. Epley as a teacher of false doctrine :club

[SDG]

and on that note.. it's time for bed.. ttyl doc

Good nite y'all.

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

yes and the point was ???

Society has been content with being clean shaven for 70 yrs.

[Jekyll]

my brother teaches our new believers and teaches that there are 4 types of standards:

Bible standards

pastoral standards

personal standards

&..... I can't remember the 4th one right now :heeheehee

however, I don't think the correlation between what a pastor does and what corporations demand for pay relates to teaching saints how to live for God.
Churches with human people require social rules, same as corporations (which many churches are), non-profit orgs, clubs, etc...

And for anyone who wants to say that I am bringing the church down to an earthly, carnal level...try again...human beings need governing is exactly what I am saying

[SDG]

Ding Ding Ding Ding Ding Ding!!!!!!!

Dan the Bible Answer Man has reverted to form, letting rabbits out of the bag for all to chase, twisting posts, unable to concede the obvious...

:bubblenot gonna let you label Bro. Epley as a teacher of false doctrine :club

You carry a heavy cross friend of your choosing .... Epley can defend himself ... quite well ... you're a hindrance ...

[SDG]

Churches with human people require social rules, same as corporations (which many churches are), non-profit orgs, clubs, etc...

And for anyone who wants to say that I am bringing the church down to an earthly, carnal level...try again...human beings need governing is exactly what I am saying

Napoleon Dynamite!!!!!

[Thad]

Society has been content with being clean shaven for 70 yrs.


again i think it depends on what aspect of society.

mountain men?

loggers ?

western pioneers ?

early pentecostal men ?

wall street business men ?

African american men ?

Lawyers ?

judges and doctors ?


Boomm , i can hear them asking, "since when did we set a standard according to society"

[Jekyll]

Jek wants us to equate the mundane with the eternal ....

Ha ha lol...:laffatu DA, always good for a giggle...

[Jekyll]

You carry a heavy cross friend of your choosing .... Epley can defend himself ... quite well ... you're a hindrance ...
It's not him I am defending...I am trying to keep you from making a fool of yourself...yeah, THAT is a heavy burden

[Jekyll]

Napoleon Dynamite!!!!!

You want a church named, oh...let me see, uh, Laodecia??

[Thad]

Churches with human people require social rules, same as corporations (which many churches are), non-profit orgs, clubs, etc...

And for anyone who wants to say that I am bringing the church down to an earthly, carnal level...try again...human beings need governing is exactly what I am saying


I believe in church government. I believe God gave the man of God the right to set spiritual guidelines and principles. this is where i differ from the Xers amongst us. I just don't care for the parallel with huge money making machines

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

again i think it depends on what aspect of society.

mountain men?

loggers ?

western pioneers ?

early pentecostal men ?

wall street business men ?

African american men ?

Lawyers ?

judges and doctors ?


Boomm , i can hear them asking, "since when did we set a standard according to society"

The man in the Derby was Mayor of SFO- the photo was in the Chronicle story this weekend about The Golden Gate Bridge. I have always heard that those in the 30's all had beards, and that we are out of touch. This stood out to me when I read it Sunday.

We are not out of touch.

Not that I would not give up shaving in a New York Minute either. I hate the task.

[SDG]

It's not him I am defending...I am trying to keep you from making a fool of yourself...yeah, that IS a heavy burden

LAY DOWN YOUR BURDENS .... :heeheehee

http://www.altmanphoto.com/PrincePaul.fr.jpeg

[Jekyll]

I believe in church government. I believe God gave the man of God the right to set spiritual guidelines and principles. this is where i differ from the Xers amongst us. I just don't care for the parallel with huge money making machines
Again, I didn't parallel, I gave an example of the everyday need for discipline and structure for sucess.

[Jekyll]

LAY DOWN YOUR BURDENS .... :heeheehee

http://www.altmanphoto.com/PrincePaul.fr.jpeg

Dan! Wash your face! Freshen up a little bit!!

[Michael The Disciple]

Several reasons why I attack this false doctrine.

It runs sincere Biblical people off from Oneness Churches. Then they are condemned because they dont love the truth!

It proves "Apostolic" Churches do not love the truth when false doctrine is allowed to stand.

[Steve Epley]

I have spoken with good conservative black and Latino pastors both groups have told me that facial hair is a real source of pride in their cultures and a test but they have told me they have had NO problems they just say NO. Most men who have came into the church NOTHING is said to them they look around and do NOT see any facial hair so they shave. Look like us or them that is the choice. Again there are Pentecostal church in our area where the preachers are afraid of their shadows and do not make an issue over anything where they will be welcome to come stay as they are just put the money in the little envelope. But this church has a pastor which happens to be me and it ain't gonna happen here. NOT HERE.

[Whole Hearted]

If you leave the upc, will you still use the manual as your Bible?

I don't use the manual as my bible now. I have never used it to preach from only use the Word of God.

Thank You.

[Whole Hearted]

About 35 0r 40. But NO facial hair. I am the pastor here I realize most folks on here have pastors who are afraid of their shadows. But I pastor here. Not boasting or being a smart aleck but that is my job. And I draw the line. Just NOT going to have facial hair on the saints here.

Thank God for good men like Elder Epley

[MissBrattified]

You just did beat me too it.

Funny how the Creator put it there in the first place....what was He thinking?? :bubble

Funny how ya'll are all about being au naturale...unless some woman decides to leave hair on her LEGS (since the Creator put it there in the first place!) :D

[mfblume]

...as long as folks realize they will account to God for their stand against something the Lord is not against. The bible speaks very strongly about adding to the word.

[philjones]

Funny how ya'll are all about being au naturale...unless some woman decides to leave hair on her LEGS (since the Creator put it there in the first place!) :D

the parallel only exists if the preacher puts you in hell if you let grow what God give you!



I think I would be tempted to violate Bro. Blume's word of wisdom in the post above if my wife felt sanctified and holy in her hairiness!:killinme:killinme:heeheehee

[MissBrattified]

For crying out loud. Some of you must have never read his books or looked at his operating policy on his website. The man has never said beards were a sin. And I have known him for 25 years. Not one time in class or through the years did he ever state wearing a beard was a sin.

This is not some new Bernard Revelation.

You and your facts...don't you know those are irrelevent???? :laffatu

[dllong]

Funny how ya'll are all about being au naturale...unless some woman decides to leave hair on her LEGS (since the Creator put it there in the first place!) :D

euuuuuuuuw!

..And hopefully, for my sake, they'll keep them covered.

;-)

Bro. Dave

[mfblume]

the parallel only exists if the preacher puts you in hell if you let grow what God give you! Exactly.

I think I would be tempted to violate Bro. Blume's word of wisdom in the post above if my wife felt sanctified and holy in her hairiness!:killinme:killinme:heeheehee

Amen! lol

But it is an issue of when folks make it heaven or hell.

[TRIPLE E]

I heard from a reliable source yesterday that Br. Bernard addressed the issue of facial hair on men at a recent symposium.

I don't have a direct quote. Only that he said we (the UPCI) have been all wrong on the issue and it needs to to stop.

In our ranks, isn't this like the pope saying, it's OK now?

I'm glad that I don't have to wait for DB to get a revelation on something in order to see it.

[MissBrattified]

1. I prefer a cleanshaven face (or a couple days grizzle at the most). I DON'T like a full beard (at least not on my husband) (although Sean Connery looks good in one). Nor do I like men in robes. That doesn't mean I'm disrespecting our Saviour. *some serious eye-rolling here*

2. The problem is that so many of you confuse "Don't do that" or "Our church doesn't do that" with "It's a sin." Even Ultra-Conservative Bro. Epley clearly stated it was just a rule--he didn't say it was a SIN. But its a RULE for their church.

We have a "wear-pantyhose-on-the-platform" rule...that doesn't mean we think its a sin to go bare legged!

Its worth discussing...BUT when you make folks who DON'T wear beards out to be evil, then the credibility goes down the drain.

[Digging4Truth]

The perfect apostolic. REALLY short hair and clean shaven face.

Poster child.

Epley? :)

[H2H]

Funny how ya'll are all about being au naturale...unless some woman decides to leave hair on her LEGS (since the Creator put it there in the first place!) :D

I know of no church that preaches women must shave their legs.

[MissBrattified]

I know of no church that preaches women must shave their legs.

Yeah? What does that have to do with the price of gold in Japan? :bubble

[berkeley]

I know of no church that preaches women must shave their legs.

knew of one that forbade it!!! :eek:

[MissBrattified]

knew of one that forbade it!!! :eek:

I know several churches who forbid women to shave. Or pluck. Or wax. Or remove so much as a hair from their nose.

BUH-LECH!!!!!!

My sister broke up with John Looper (Buddy Looper's son from Stuttgart, AR) back in the day, and it was because of having babies at home, and the no-shaving rule.

[CC1]

If brother Bernard indeed said this .... it's MONUMENTAL.

Not really. He said as much in his book on holiness more than 20 years ago. He just danced a fancy little jig around it but essentially said the same thing.

[MissBrattified]

Not really. He said as much in his book on holiness more than 20 years ago. He just danced a fancy little jig around it but essentially said the same thing.

This really isn't even news (to me). Anyway, I can't recall hearing any UPCI minister ever preach, teach or state that having facial hair was a sin. I've known some who had rules against it, but still didn't think it was a sin.

[berkeley]

This really isn't even news (to me). Anyway, I can't recall hearing any UPCI minister ever preach, teach or state that having facial hair was a sin. I've known some who had rules against it, but still didn't think it was a sin.
Pride is a sin. Men who "refuse" to shave are accused of being prideful. :bubble

[CC1]

This really isn't even news (to me). Anyway, I can't recall hearing any UPCI minister ever preach, teach or state that having facial hair was a sin. I've known some who had rules against it, but still didn't think it was a sin.

You just jumped straight out of reality!!! Very few UPC churches I have been around allow facial hair on men. Some of the more progressive ones perhaps.

Facial hair on men was a definite taboo when I was growin up UPC. I see it now a little in a few larger churches but it is still very much the exception.

[dllong]

I have a very short full beard and in a UPC church. Been here quite a while too. :)

Bro. Dave

[MissBrattified]

You just jumped straight out of reality!!! Very few UPC churches I have been around allow facial hair on men. Some of the more progressive ones perhaps.

I know they don't "allow" it, BUT they don't preach its a sin either.

[SDG]

Pride is a sin. Men who "refuse" to shave are accused of being prideful. :bubble

It's like you're being baited to sin ... in one breath they say it's not a heaven or hell issue .... not a sin .... but then if you refuse to shave ....you're full of pride ....

[CC1]

No doubt things are changing and there are a lot more UPC churches that allow men to have facial hair than in the past but it is still not widely accepted.

I would be willing to bet that at some of the churches that "tolerate" facial hair on men that they are still second class citiziens like women who trim their hair, etc and can come to church and worship but are not used on the platform, teaching, etc. I am not saying all but I am guessing some.

[berkeley]

It's like you're being baited to sin ... in one breath they say it's not a heaven or hell issue .... not a sin .... but then if you refuse to shave ....you're full of pride ....

Right. At my new "home" I think it's a platform standard to be cleanshaven. Gives me a little elasticity. :haloplug

[Digging4Truth]

I haven't read this entire thread so this may already have been touched on...

But... if this is true... then over time opinion will finally begin to change towads beards and then it will be said...

"Well... we never said it was a sin."

[CC1]

I know they don't "allow" it, BUT they don't preach its a sin either.

Since there has never been any bible to preach against it preachers have preached against it on the basis of "rebellion" or it being a hippie thing.

It is probably the one "standards" issue that I have seen logic prevail on in a slow methodical way over the last 20 years.

[dllong]

No doubt things are changing and there are a lot more UPC churches that allow men to have facial hair than in the past but it is still not widely accepted.

I would be willing to bet that at some of the churches that "tolerate" facial hair on men that they are still second class citiziens like women who trim their hair, etc and can come to church and worship but are not used on the platform, teaching, etc. I am not saying all but I am guessing some.

That would be the case here, but I'm not complaining.

Bro. Dave

[Felicity]

We never made it an issue in any of the churches we pastored. It wouldn't have been smart to have done so either. There are lots of important boundaries to set and places to draw the line. "Facial hair" certainly isn't one of them in my opinion.

This is where we get into putting yokes on people that are unnecessary. There's no scriptural backup for such a prohibition whatsoever. None!

[CC1]

I haven't read this entire thread so this may already have been touched on...

But... if this is true... then over time opinion will finally begin to change towads beards and then it will be said...

"Well... we never said it was a sin."

Here is the logic I heard preached growing up in the UPC;

1. Hippies and non conformists wear mustaches and beards. They are rebellious people.

2. Pentecostal men with facial hair are identifying themselves with the rebellious

3. Rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft

4. Hence Pentecostal men with facial hair are as bad as witches!!

[Digging4Truth]

Here is the logic I heard preached growing up in the UPC;

1. Hippies and non conformists wear mustaches and beards. They are rebellious people.

2. Pentecostal men with facial hair are identifying themselves with the rebellious

3. Rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft

4. Hence Pentecostal men with facial hair are as bad as witches!!

LOL... yep... here too.

[dllong]

Here is the logic I heard preached growing up in the UPC;

1. Hippies and non conformists wear mustaches and beards. They are rebellious people.

2. Pentecostal men with facial hair are identifying themselves with the rebellious

3. Rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft

4. Hence Pentecostal men with facial hair are as bad as witches!!


There is just so much wrong with that logic, I don't even know where to begin, so I won't.

;-)

Bro. Dave

[berkeley]

Here is the logic I heard preached growing up in the UPC;

1. Hippies and non conformists wear mustaches and beards. They are rebellious people.

2. Pentecostal men with facial hair are identifying themselves with the rebellious

3. Rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft

4. Hence Pentecostal men with facial hair are as bad as witches!!

Amazing.. their line of reasoning.. lol...

[Subdued]

I was asked once "Can a man go to Heaven with a beard?" I answered "Not from here.":club

What does this mean??

[dllong]

What does this mean??

I think he meant "not from here" (or) "not from this church you won't"

[berkeley]

What does this mean??

I think he meant "not from here" (or) "not from this church you won't"

That is exactly what he means,,,

[dllong]

That is exactly what he means,,,




....do I hear crickets?

[Subdued]

I think he meant "not from here" (or) "not from this church you won't"

And the reason would be....????

[Digging4Truth]

Originally Posted by Steve Epley View Post
I was asked once "Can a man go to Heaven with a beard?" I answered "Not from here."

Brother Epley is of the age that he will probably be able to live out the rest of his pastorate proudly holding this line and claiming that he is one of the few who stayed true to "good doctrine".

But it is a completely man made doctrine whose short life span of un-biblical authority in the lives of people is nearing an end.

[Digging4Truth]

And the reason would be....????

Epley don't want it...

[SDG]

And the reason would be....????

because he says so ...

[StillStanding]

I haven't read this whole thread, but doest not nature itself teach you that if a man has a smooth face, it is a shame unto him? :eek:

[Digging4Truth]

I haven't read this whole thread, but doest not nature itself teach you that if a man has a smooth face, it is a shame unto him? :eek:

:killinme

No sir... but what does teach these things also has 6 letters in it. :)

N-A-T-U-R-E
P-A-S-T-O-R

:)

[berkeley]

Brother Epley is of the age that he will probably be able to live out the rest of his pastorate proudly holding this line and claiming that he is one of the few who stayed true to "good doctrine".

But it is a completely man made doctrine whose short life span of un-biblical authority in the lives of people is nearing an end.

He was answering me... lol

[Subdued]

It just seems to me, that since SE seems to have such a problem distinguishing between the sexes... and runs into so many people that he can't tell whether they are a man or a woman (per SE in previous posts)... that if he allowed GOD's designed way of having gender distinction, such as men growing facial hair; it might eliminate the problem for him...? He seems to be big on "gender distinction" in one breath, but eliminates it in the next breath. Seems confusing!

[Michael The Disciple]

Ok so when will David Bernard or SOMEONE have the courage to make a resolution that beards are not wrong?

[dllong]

It just seems to me, that since SE seems to have such a problem distinguishing between the sexes... and runs into so many people that he can't tell whether they are a man or a woman (per SE in previous posts)... that if he allowed GOD's designed way of having gender distinction, such as men growing facial hair; it might eliminate the problem for him...? He seems to be big on "gender distinction" in one breath, but eliminates it in the next breath. Seems confusing!

Whoah...on that note,.......I'm off on my bike!

(whoooooosh!)

See yas!

[berkeley]

Ok so when will David Bernard or SOMEONE have the courage to make a resolution that beards are not wrong?

A resolution???

[Digging4Truth]

Ok so when will David Bernard or SOMEONE have the courage to make a resolution that beards are not wrong?

Woah there bro... you are asking a little much aren't you. :)

If DB said all this then it will need a good decade or so to become more socially acceptable in the ranks to the point that a resolution can be passed.

The TV resolution is showing that you can't get something past until you get some of the cons on your side.

I would say 10-12 years may be a good time frame.

Also... I just saw Berks reaction...he's right on that... a resolution won't be needed for this because it was never on paper... but if it were... the time frame still stands

[philjones]

CC1 and all,

I guess my dad, as conservative as he was, must have been a one of a kind conservative because when he went to Duncan, OK to pastor in 1972 there was a young man whose family attended the church who wore a full (being interpreted VERY full) beard. He was VERY red headed (what he had left at 20) and could forever more make that big red bodied Gibson talk a la Chet Atkins. Under the previous pastor he had been relegated to the back pew as a rebel. Under my dad's pastorate he was openly fellowshipped and allowed to play his gitfiddle right behind his sister who played the piano. In fact my dad, quite the lead guitar player himself (Fender Telecaster), bought himself a precision bass so this young man could play lead without conflict.

The young man remained faithful to God and to the church and as far as i know is still living for God today. Whether he still has the beard or not I do not know.

One strange thing about it all... do you know that none of our other young men felt that they needed to grow a beard even though this young man was allowed to. Strange isn't it? I was always told that this was sure to follow such an action by the pastor. I suppose it may have been because Dad taught very conservative principles of holiness and separation and it just never was an issue!

[Digging4Truth]

CC1 and all,

I guess my dad, as conservative as he was, must have been a one of a kind conservative because when he went to Duncan, OK to pastor in 1972 there was a young man whose family attended the church who wore a full (being interpreted VERY full) beard. He was VERY red headed (what he had left at 20) and could forever more make that big red bodied Gibson talk a la Chet Atkins. Under the previous pastor he had been relegated to the back pew as a rebel. Under my dad's pastorate he was openly fellowshipped and allowed to play his gitfiddle right behind his sister who played the piano. In fact my dad, quite the lead guitar player himself (Fender Telecaster), bought himself a precision bass so this young man could play lead without conflict.

The young man remained faithful to God and to the church and as far as i know is still living for God today. Whether he still has the beard or not I do not know.

One strange thing about it all... do you know that none of our other young men felt that they needed to grow a beard even though this young man was allowed to. Strange isn't it? I was always told that this was sure to follow such an action by the pastor. I suppose it may have been because Dad taught very conservative principles of holiness and separation and it just never was an issue!

Hats off to a pioneer in pentecost.

[dllong]

Woah there bro... you are asking a little much aren't you. :)

If DB said all this then it will need a good decade or so to become more socially acceptable in the ranks to the point that a resolution can be passed.

The TV resolution is showing that you can't get something past until you get some of the cons on your side.

I would say 10-12 years may be a good time frame.

Also... I just saw Berks reaction...he's right on that... a resolution won't be needed for this because it was never on paper... but if it were... the time frame still stands

By that time TV's will be obsolete, but growing a beard is timeless. ;-)

Bro. Dave

[Digging4Truth]

By that time TV's will be obsolete, but growing a beard is timeless. ;-)

Bro. Dave

Indeed... :)

I've never grown one myself... If I go a few days without shaving it begins to drive me crazy.

:bubble

[philjones]

Indeed... :)

I've never grown one myself... If I go a few days without shaving it begins to drive me crazy.

:bubble

I wore a Vandyke while I was away from God and it was certainly a part of my identity as a sinner. For that reason, even if my pastor did not teach against it, I would choose to be clean shaven. I want no part of the man I used to be. It really simplifies it for me personally!:highfive

[Digging4Truth]

I wore a Vandyke while I was away from God and it was certainly a part of my identity as a sinner. For that reason, even if my pastor did not teach against it, I would choose to be clean shaven. I want no part of the man I used to be. It really simplifies it for me personally!:highfive

Yes sir... and I just cannot see myself ever wearing one either.

There are many things we used to be and, in our love for what we are becoming, we make those things forever our past. That is always a wonderful way to live.

[dllong]

I wore a Vandyke while I was away from God and it was certainly a part of my identity as a sinner. For that reason, even if my pastor did not teach against it, I would choose to be clean shaven. I want no part of the man I used to be. It really simplifies it for me personally!:highfive


I had the same reasoning but in reverse. I always shaved as a sinner. Now I don't want to even look like that person again!

So I have a beard.

Bro. Dave

[philjones]

I had the same reasoning but in reverse. I always shaved as a sinner. Now I don't want to even look like that person again!

So I have a beard.

Bro. Dave

I believe it was Reverend Ike that said "It takes different strokes for different folks"....

Of course he was talking about the different methods of anointing that we use and how we "get" folks slain in the spirit (just not sure what spirit).:lol

[H2H]

CC1 and all,

I guess my dad, as conservative as he was, must have been a one of a kind conservative because when he went to Duncan, OK to pastor in 1972 there was a young man whose family attended the church who wore a full (being interpreted VERY full) beard. He was VERY red headed (what he had left at 20) and could forever more make that big red bodied Gibson talk a la Chet Atkins. Under the previous pastor he had been relegated to the back pew as a rebel. Under my dad's pastorate he was openly fellowshipped and allowed to play his gitfiddle right behind his sister who played the piano. !

WOW. Do some churches have seating assignments too??

[philjones]

WOW. Do some churches have seating assignments too??

I have found that you are usually seated how you are treated!:lol:club:lol

[H2H]

I have found that you are usually seated how you are treated!:lol:club:lol

There is a thought!

But, the new auditoriums allow for very few "bad seats", and the front seats are no longer always the "best Seats" in the house....

[philjones]

There is a thought!

But, the new auditoriums allow for very few "bad seats", and the front seats are no longer always the "best Seats" in the house....

You are obviously in a non-traditional sanctuary... only the progressive and highly successful have those confounded fan shaped outfits that makes it too easy for the preacher to spit to the back pew as evidence of his anointing.:lol

[Nahum]

I have spoken with good conservative black and Latino pastors both groups have told me that facial hair is a real source of pride in their cultures and a test but they have told me they have had NO problems they just say NO. Most men who have came into the church NOTHING is said to them they look around and do NOT see any facial hair so they shave. Look like us or them that is the choice. Again there are Pentecostal church in our area where the preachers are afraid of their shadows and do not make an issue over anything where they will be welcome to come stay as they are just put the money in the little envelope. But this church has a pastor which happens to be me and it ain't gonna happen here. NOT HERE.

It sounds as if you are very proud of yourself.

[berkeley]

It sounds as if you are very proud of yourself.

:sshhh

[SDG]

It sounds as if you are very proud of yourself.

Is there a special shaver for pride?

[Rico]

Here is the logic I heard preached growing up in the UPC;

1. Hippies and non conformists wear mustaches and beards. They are rebellious people.

2. Pentecostal men with facial hair are identifying themselves with the rebellious

3. Rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft

4. Hence Pentecostal men with facial hair are as bad as witches!!

You know what's really funny? I just saw a documentary on the hippie movement and there were more clean shaven men in the video than those with beards. Funny how being clean shaven never is associated with the hippie movement. Talk about pickin and choosin.

[H2H]

You know what's really funny? I just saw a documentary on the hippie movement and there were more clean shaven men in the video than those with beards. Funny how being clean shaven never is associated with the hippie movement. Talk about pickin and choosin.

Interesting thought Rico.

[Ferd]

I believe in seperation. I like the fact that Apostolics are the last bastion or real standards. What I dont like is faulty logic and things like "No beards" that fly in the face of scripture.


Being Holy people cannot be about playing opposite man to the world. It HAS to be about lining up with scripture. period.

[Monkeyman]

I have spoken with good conservative black and Latino pastors both groups have told me that facial hair is a real source of pride in their cultures and a test but they have told me they have had NO problems they just say NO. Most men who have came into the church NOTHING is said to them they look around and do NOT see any facial hair so they shave. Look like us or them that is the choice. Again there are Pentecostal church in our area where the preachers are afraid of their shadows and do not make an issue over anything where they will be welcome to come stay as they are just put the money in the little envelope. But this church has a pastor which happens to be me and it ain't gonna happen here. NOT HERE.
Wrong---try again.
Facial hair has been a part of both secular/apostolic latino culture for years and widely accepted.

[Ferd]

Wrong---try again.
Facial hair has been a part of both secular/apostolic latino culture for years and widely accepted.

Not just widely accepted but in many instances, biblical conviction.

If Paul uses nature as an argument that women should have long hair and men short (which I believe he did make that case), should we not follow the same precident and say that nature teaches us that men should have beards?

[seguidordejesus]

Male pogonotrophy (the growing of facial hair; i.e, beardedness) is often culturally associated with wisdom and virility.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facial_hair

[seguidordejesus]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Van_Dyck_Pieter_Brueghel_the_Younger.jpg

Phil, is this the style you're referring to?

[Blubayou]

I have not read this entire thread, but I do know that facial hair on men is not against DB's local church standards. (On women- that another thing!)

[Rico]

I have not read this entire thread, but I do know that facial hair on men is not against DB's local church standards. (On women- that another thing!)

I am firmly against facial hair on women.

[Jekyll]

I am firmly against facial hair on women.
Although, it helps if you develop and itch on your nose while you are kissin em

[philjones]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Van_Dyck_Pieter_Brueghel_the_Younger.jpg

Phil, is this the style you're referring to?

Not exactly... mine was not quite as long or curly. Many today would call what I had a goatee which would be incorrect as a goatee is simply hair growing from beneath the chin.

If you have noticed Bro. Blume's beard, that would be more like what I wore. the exception would be that my hair was white, my mustache was black and my beard was white with black flowing into it from the mustache.

[mfblume]

I believe in seperation. I like the fact that Apostolics are the last bastion or real standards. What I dont like is faulty logic and things like "No beards" that fly in the face of scripture.

Being Holy people cannot be about playing opposite man to the world. It HAS to be about lining up with scripture. period.

I agree. But I do wish to point out that the BIBLE NEVER refers to clothing when it says we are to be separate and to come out from among the world. The ONLY thing the bible ever mentioned was that men would know we're His people by our love for one another.

Again, NO WHERE does the bible say clothing or appearance separates us.

Why not be modest just for the sake of modesty, like the bible says?

[mfblume]

Most people nowadays who are still against beards are simply afraid of admitting they were wrong, or to "fit in" with the ultra-con status quo, and not make waves. No bible reason exists.

[Subdued]

I agree. But I do wish to point out that the BIBLE NEVER refers to clothing when it says we are to be separate and to come out from among the world. The ONLY thing the bible ever mentioned was that men would know we're His people by our love for one another.

Again, NO WHERE does the bible say clothing or appearance separates us.

Why not be modest just for the sake of modesty, like the bible says?

Sounds good to me! :thumbsup

[berkeley]

Most people nowadays who are still against beards are simply afraid of admitting they were wrong, or to "fit in" and not make waves. No bible reason exists.

thas right!!!








I don't like saying "That'll preach!!" :lol

[Ferd]

I agree. But I do wish to point out that the BIBLE NEVER refers to clothing when it says we are to be separate and to come out from among the world. The ONLY thing the bible ever mentioned was that men would know we're His people by our love for one another.

Again, NO WHERE does the bible say clothing or appearance separates us.

Why not be modest just for the sake of modesty, like the bible says?

well. AFF/NFCF/FCF is proof that your belief on the above is dabatable. but we agree on the beard thing anyway.

[Digging4Truth]

I agree. But I do wish to point out that the BIBLE NEVER refers to clothing when it says we are to be separate and to come out from among the world. The ONLY thing the bible ever mentioned was that men would know we're His people by our love for one another.

Again, NO WHERE does the bible say clothing or appearance separates us.

Why not be modest just for the sake of modesty, like the bible says?

Hmmmm... Doing what the Bible says simply because it says it and not reading anything else into it that it was not trying to say....

What a novel idea.

That just might work.

[CC1]

What does this mean??

As the other person mentioned he meant not from the church he pastors.

[Ferd]

Hmmmm... Doing what the Bible says simply because it says it and not reading anything else into it that it was not trying to say....

What a novel idea.

That just might work.

this is what I have decided to start calling the Cheeseburger" mentality.

[mfblume]

well. AFF/NFCF/FCF is proof that your belief on the above is dabatable. but we agree on the beard thing anyway.

People debate anything. But I know I am right about this. :D

[Ferd]

People debate anything. But I know I am right about this. :D

LOL! you keep knowing. im going to stay over here in the cheep seats and live what I know.... hee hee.

[mfblume]

LOL! you keep knowing. im going to stay over here in the cheep seats and live what I know.... hee hee.

Heh heh.

It's easy to know something when you have a bible in hand and can read. ;)

[Straightline]

It's just another MASK to hide behind.
:sshhh


My razor is a
Straightline

[Ferd]

It's just another MASK to hide behind.
:sshhh


My razor is a
Straightline

even straightline cant quote scripture on this one.

[HeavenlyOne]

I heard from a reliable source yesterday that Br. Bernard addressed the issue of facial hair on men at a recent symposium.

I don't have a direct quote. Only that he said we (the UPCI) have been all wrong on the issue and it needs to to stop.

In our ranks, isn't this like the pope saying, it's OK now?

Oh, thank God!

I can quit shaving now!

[HeavenlyOne]

I wonder if facial hair on men will have power with God and the angels like long hair on women does??

[HeavenlyOne]

Example of set teaching [doctrine]:

I just tell them I am the pastor and this is a pastorial judgment and we are not having facial hair here.

How long have you been teaching this???

I don't believe Epley is preaching doctrine in having a set standard for his church. Apparently his church respects his teachings because they continue coming to every service!

[HeavenlyOne]

SOUNDS LIKE A SET TEACHING TO ME ...

What exactly is being taught when someone has a standard?

I have a work standard at my job. No teaching is involved, but I better obey the standard or I can't work for them.

If Epley has a standard for people in his church in order to be used, that's his right as pastor. No teaching is involved, but if they want to be used, they have to obey the standard. It's that simple.

[Digging4Truth]

Thread Title... Dave Bernard address's beards

Epley addresses beards too... There are height issues with addressing them eye to eye.

:)

[HeavenlyOne]

Society has been content with being clean shaven for 70 yrs.

Correction. White society has been content with being clean shaven for 70 yrs.

[ILG]

I heard from a reliable source yesterday that Br. Bernard addressed the issue of facial hair on men at a recent symposium.

I don't have a direct quote. Only that he said we (the UPCI) have been all wrong on the issue and it needs to to stop.

In our ranks, isn't this like the pope saying, it's OK now?

I'm glad the men may finally be liberated. :bubble