Destructive Ministers.

[Scott Hutchinson]

Am I crazy ?But it seems to me there alot of ministers out there who seem to thrive on tearing up churches.I understand that are true God called five fold ministers out there,but it seems there are destructive ones out there.
It gets my goat when I about ministers being so unbrotherly as to tear up and sow discord in a church.

[ChTatum]

It happens.

I had one preacher describe another to me this way:
"He's the only pastor I know who can take a church of 300, whittle it down to 30, and be happy about it."

[Praxeas]

Am I crazy ?But it seems to me there alot of ministers out there who seem to thrive on tearing up churches.I understand that are true God called five fold ministers out there,but it seems there are destructive ones out there.
It gets my goat when I about ministers being so unbrotherly as to tear up and sow discord in a church.

People forget we are ambassadors for Jesus...We all bear a great responsibility to act in the way that shows off Jesus. This world will either know or not know the real Jesus through the members of His body that are on the outside looking in. And then we bear that responsibility to each other so as not to cause a stumbling block. I wonder how disappointed Jesus gets in us

[revrandy]

Scott..

I think there is a difference between Shepherds and Sheep Herders... that could be the issue...

The Sheep know the Shepherds voice...

[ChTatum]

Of course, in all fairness to the ministry, there's a heap of goats out there in sheeps' clothing. I've run into a few of them also.

Makes me appreciate a southern delicacy......BBQ'd goat.

[freeatlast]

and then you have those who gleefully refer to their preaching as, " butchering the hogs"

Shameful.

[OneAccord]

There has got to be something wrong with anyone (won't specify preachers, might be misconstrued as "bashin") that seems to take delight in tearing churches up. I believe the Lord told us in Proverbs how He feels about those who "sow discord among the brethren". The Bible tells us "Endeavoring to keep the unity of the faith..." The word "endeavor"comes from two French words that mean "To Try" and "Duty". It is our duty to try to keep harmony in the Body.

[Fireside]

and then you have those who gleefully refer to their preaching as, " butchering the hogs"

Shameful.

And those who don't recognize tongue-in-cheek humor.

Pathetic.

[The Dean]

And those who don't recognize tongue-in-cheek humor.

Pathetic.

I concur with you, Coonskinner. I think 'Butchering the Hogs' is a terms used that has very little bearing on what really goes on. I know Epley enough, for isntance, to know he's a prince and values his people.

[Fireside]

I concur with you, Coonskinner. I think 'Butchering the Hogs' is a terms used that has very little bearing on what really goes on. I know Epley enough, for isntance, to know he's a prince and values his people.

Exactly.

I suspect there might actually be more recognition than some like to let on...

But it is hard to pass up a chance to take a shot at a man who preaches a standard.

[freeatlast]

And those who don't recognize tongue-in-cheek humor.

Pathetic.

Ha ha hahhahaaaha I expected that CS.

Apparently you did'nt recognize it either. :killinme

BTW good to see you hear finally.

Heard you were Illinois......and you did'nt even stop in for coffee.

I now some folks from another church that refer to going to church as "going to get their weekly beaten"...theirs a new one you can use TIC of course.

[Fireside]

Ha ha hahhahaaaha I expected that CS.

Apparently you did'nt recognize it either. :killinme

BTW good to see you hear finally.

Heard you were Illinois......and you did'nt even stop in for coffee.

I now some folks from another church that refer to going to church as "going to get their weekly beaten"...theirs a new one you can use TIC of course.

I was in Illinois.

Preached in Herrick and Mattoon.

Had I known where you were, we might have been able to get together. :)

[freeatlast]

I was in Illinois.

Preached in Herrick and Mattoon.

Had I known where you were, we might have been able to get together. :)

That's a bit south for me. I'm closer to Moline.


Matton? Br. Daughty still in Mattoon?

[Fireside]

That's a bit south for me. I'm closer to Moline.


Matton? Br. Daughty still in Mattoon?

He is.

Let me guess..you shudder any time you see a bow tie.:killinme

[freeatlast]

He is.

Let me guess..you shudder any time you see a bow tie.:killinme

I'm still laughing..ahahahahahah:killinme

He was a great friend and taught me much.

[Fireside]

I'm still laughing..ahahahahahah:killinme

He was a great friend and taught me much.

LOL...Glad you got a chuckle out of it. :)

I am getting ready to read old Napoleon Hill's masterpiece myself. :)

[freeatlast]

I near bout got killed dead in a water fight at Ill camp 25 years ago.

Br Daughty took off in his truck across the ball feild unawares that i was perched on top of the topper, with a bucket of water to throw on him in an all night water fight.

God musta caught and broke my fall..I really took a tumble. but it did get Br D out of his truck he was taking refuge in. About 10 preachers then drowned him, once they saw i was OK

[freeatlast]

LOL...Glad you got a chuckle out of it. :)

I am getting ready to read old Napoleon Hill's masterpiece myself. :)

Sounds like you might have known him well. He really got into that Dale Carnegie stuff.

Did you know the church and 17 acres has been sold to Wal mart. they are meeting in a Elementary School now.

[Brother Price]

Sadly, Bro. Hutchison, you are too right. I spoke with a friend last night, who had informed me about the assistant pastor of one church causing a major split in a small town, and took over half the members across town to their new church. So, yes, there are indeed wolves in sheep's clothing among us.

This is where we need a renewal of discernment in the Body, and a boldness in our spirit to call a spade a spade. We need some preachers who can discern the Spirit, and then confront those spirits straightforward, but in love, and keep order.

[RevDWW]

Scott..

I think there is a difference between Shepherds and Sheep Herders... that could be the issue...

The Sheep know the Shepherds voice...

Sheep don't take to being driven, they have to be led or they will scatter.

[RevDWW]

Sounds like you might have known him well. He really got into that Dale Carnegie stuff.

Did you know the church and 17 acres has been sold to Wal mart. they are meeting in a Elementary School now.

There's a few that could stand to reas his "How to win friends and influence people" book.......:killinme

[COOPER]

Am I crazy ?But it seems to me there alot of ministers out there who seem to thrive on tearing up churches.I understand that are true God called five fold ministers out there,but it seems there are destructive ones out there.
It gets my goat when I about ministers being so unbrotherly as to tear up and sow discord in a church.
Thank God I have never personally meet one.:praying

[Sister Truth Seeker]

Am I crazy ?But it seems to me there alot of ministers out there who seem to thrive on tearing up churches.I understand that are true God called five fold ministers out there,but it seems there are destructive ones out there.
It gets my goat when I about ministers being so unbrotherly as to tear up and sow discord in a church.
Sadly this happens, they are human, the thing that I can not understand is one minister talking against another one....gossip, etc...

[LadyChocolate]

Sadly this happens, they are human, the thing that I can not understand is one minister talking against another one....gossip, etc...

Now there is one I don't understand either. I have never understood why preachers were allowed to talk about others and saints weren't allowed. No, I'm not preacher bashing. But in my lil area of apostolics,,,,,,,,,,,I've sat at tables with preachers talking about other saints, talking about other ministers, talking bout other organization.....I used to think I was "in" because they talked to us about them...been guilty of it ourselves..............that was years ago before I realized that they were sharing our lives with others also....soo now we don't sit with them anymore, it saddens me.........Why one is so against homosexuality with it being an abomination but really disregard the act of sowing discord among brethren, another abomination.Prov. 6:19....I don't understand............................

On the other hand, I don't think a preacher is tearing up a church when he is preaching the Word and naming sin....There is a difference.....I've heard it both ways. When a preacher uses the pulpit as a whipping post, I don't see where the awesome power of God and come down and convict and draw people....that way just condemns them....But when the Word of God is preached with annointing and love, no matter how hard it is to swallow, the spirit of God will draw people and there won't really be any "church wide" reprocussions....jmo

[freeatlast]

Sadly this happens, they are human, the thing that I can not understand is one minister talking against another one....gossip, etc...

Sadly itdoes occur. I sat under a pastor for many years.
He would speak openly from the pulpit against the pastor and neighboring church.

A ommon statement was, " you want to go to hell, go to Br. XXXXXX's church.

This was in reference to a neighboring church and it's pastor. Both churches in the same organization.

You could really feel the love.

Three churches in close proximity and no fellowship between them to this day.

Standards are indeed a wonderful thing.

[Sarah]

Sadly this happens, they are human, the thing that I can not understand is one minister talking against another one....gossip, etc...


It is sad when ministers talk against one another. Other than being just downright wrong, they really are defeating their purpose.......which should be leading people to Christ.

Have you ever heard a physician downing another physician? I haven't. They know it is in their best interest not to. How much more so should men of God show the same discretion.

[MrsMcD]

It's not just ministers that are destructive. A pastor's wife from a neighboring church told a saint that goes to my parents church, that their church was never going to make it.

Now why on earth would a pastor's wife tell another saint that. I think it is jealousy. I think this pastor's wife needs a big dose of the holy ghost working in her life! The church is growing and striving. Jealousy makes me sick! I wonder what God thinks about it. Shouldn't we be happy that other churches are prospering and building the kingdom of God?

[LadyChocolate]

It's not just ministers that are destructive. A pastor's wife from a neighboring church told a saint that goes to my parents church, that their church was never going to make it.

Now why on earth would a pastor's wife tell another saint that. I think it is jealousy. I think this pastor's wife needs a big dose of the holy ghost working in her life! The church is growing and striving. Jealousy makes me sick! I wonder what God thinks about it. Shouldn't we be happy that other churches are prospering and building the kingdom of God?

Not when we want to build our own kingdoms......This thread could very easily turn into preacher bashing.....I don't want it too.............And whether done by saints or preachers........gossip is a sin and yes, it destroys.... The bible says that jealousy is cruel as the grave....

Also, sometimes it isn't jealousy......sometimes people can get soo locked into certain ways of thinking that if others don't have as strong of a standard as we do, then we don't consider them lost....and this is as much as saints as it is preachers.....

[Scott Hutchinson]

Am I crazy ?But it seems to me there alot of ministers out there who seem to thrive on tearing up churches.I understand that are true God called five fold ministers out there,but it seems there are destructive ones out there.
It gets my goat when I about ministers being so unbrotherly as to tear up and sow discord in a church.

I meant to say it gets my goat when I hear about ministers tearing up churches,I couldn't find the edit button you see I'm using reading glasses now.

[LadyChocolate]

I meant to say it gets my goat when I hear about ministers tearing up churches,I couldn't find the edit button you see I'm using reading glasses now.

What do you mean by "tearing up churches"? THat could go many ways.... Do you mean preachers whipping up saints and abuse of power or, when other preachers come by just slam saints and then the pastor has to put things backs together... To be honest, everyone has their idea about what it means to tear up a church....

[Scott Hutchinson]

There is a fellow who tried to double card with two orgs,and there was a church open that belonged to one of the orgs.He didn't have the right credentials with one org,to take that church.He got find out about the double card business,and he took the church and caused it to split,now this fellow is evangelizing,now who would have a unetchical fellow in their church.

[Sister Alvear]

We preach standards...sometimes we just let our visitors "rest" instead of taking them to service if we feel they are going to hurt God's little ones...
Thank the Lord for such a wise husband...

[Sister Alvear]

I think doctrine should be preached by the pastor and if the visiting minister feels something he should be respectful enough to talk to the pastor and if the pastor gives an ok then the message is blessed...(just my opinion)

[Scott Hutchinson]

You know I have done a little preaching out,not too much but I have been places where I disagreed with Pastors on some issues,but I won't preach my views in other's churches.Subjects that Pastor should address I leave to the Pastors.

[LadyChocolate]

You know I have done a little preaching out,not too much but I have been places where I disagreed with Pastors on some issues,but I won't preach my views in other's churches.Subjects that Pastor should address I leave to the Pastors.
and that is using wisdom.....now I have seen preachrs come by , and they felt that they had heard from God for that particuliar church and they took care of some pretty serious stuff........But when it is of God, then only good can come from it!!!!!!

gotta go yall, take care and have a BLESSED DAY IN THE LORD!

[whollyHis]

But...isn't the five fold ministry for the 'perfecting', or 'maturing' of the saints?? What if God sends the evangelist to preach something TO the pastor of the church?? It HAS been done before. *smile*

I'm not tqlking about 'pastoral preferences', I am talking biblical principles and commandments.

[Fireside]

But...isn't the five fold ministry for the 'perfecting', or 'maturing' of the saints?? What if God sends the evangelist to preach something TO the pastor of the church?? It HAS been done before. *smile*

I'm not tqlking about 'pastoral preferences', I am talking biblical principles and commandments.

Sister, the fivefold ministry isn't too popular with some.

[Scott Hutchinson]

Yes I agree a man can have a message for a church,and that's fine,that's not the same as carelessly handling oneself in a pulpit or not caring wheter one scatters the sheep or not.

[Trouvere]

Am I crazy ?But it seems to me there alot of ministers out there who seem to thrive on tearing up churches.I understand that are true God called five fold ministers out there,but it seems there are destructive ones out there.
It gets my goat when I about ministers being so unbrotherly as to tear up and sow discord in a church.

We have had this discussion before in our home.Its sad when a visiting evangelist decides he likes your income.It does happen.

[LadyChocolate]

Sister, the fivefold ministry isn't too popular with some.

Hey, you are a minister...let me ask you.....do you think the fivefold ministry includes 5 different people,, or do you think one man can hold all 5???

asking because I ahve heard it said that a preacher has all works of the fivefold ministry in his life, and consider him an apostle......he has everything that the church needs............

whatz your take on this ????

[whollyHis]

Sister, the fivefold ministry isn't too popular with some.

Sad...in my opinion. I've seen pastors fall on the altar weeping, after an evangelist preached...I can remember my daddy warning my mom that a revival may be closed early, because of the message that God had given him for that night. In most cases, the pastors were grateful, and received it- some DID close him up early- only for us to learn later that the pastor was involved in immorality.

This doesn't just apply to the Pastors- there are times that an evangelist is used to minister to the church and it is received by the folk, because they know that NO ONE else knew of their sin, and this stranger comes through and 'reads their mail'...as a man of God, I would be afraid NOT to preach the word- no matter whose toes it stepped on- better to be accountable to God with a free conscience, in my opinion...

[Trouvere]

Hey, you are a minister...let me ask you.....do you think the fivefold ministry includes 5 different people,, or do you think one man can hold all 5???

asking because I ahve heard it said that a preacher has all works of the fivefold ministry in his life, and consider him an apostle......he has everything that the church needs............

whatz your take on this ????

I say pass the chocolate greedy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:highfive

[Scott Hutchinson]

One time a Sister in my church asked my opinion on a matter,I told her to talk to our pastor that is his area to counsel you in,I won't delve in these sorts of isuues with the saints.

[Scott Hutchinson]

Am I crazy ?But it seems to me there alot of ministers out there who seem to thrive on tearing up churches.I understand that are true God called five fold ministers out there,but it seems there are destructive ones out there.
It gets my goat when I about ministers being so unbrotherly as to tear up and sow discord in a church.

We have had this discussion before in our home.Its sad when a visiting evangelist decides he likes your income.It does happen.

Some people are bent on tearing up another's labour in the gospel the Holy Ghost don't behave like this.

[LadyChocolate]

I say pass the chocolate greedy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:highfive
lolol!!!!!!!
aint sharin me chocolate!:ranting go git yo own

[Fireside]

Hey, you are a minister...let me ask you.....do you think the fivefold ministry includes 5 different people,, or do you think one man can hold all 5???

asking because I ahve heard it said that a preacher has all works of the fivefold ministry in his life, and consider him an apostle......he has everything that the church needs............

whatz your take on this ????

I disagree with the premise you have stated.

I do not believe any one man can perfect the saints by himself.

I also disagree that an apostle always has all the other ministry gifts working at the same time.

I think men can be used in more than one office though.

I am a pastor when I am home.

When I preach out, I may be operating in a different office, such as teacher.

[Scott Hutchinson]

Sad...in my opinion. I've seen pastors fall on the altar weeping, after an evangelist preached...I can remember my daddy warning my mom that a revival may be closed early, because of the message that God had given him for that night. In most cases, the pastors were grateful, and received it- some DID close him up early- only for us to learn later that the pastor was involved in immorality.

This doesn't just apply to the Pastors- there are times that an evangelist is used to minister to the church and it is received by the folk, because they know that NO ONE else knew of their sin, and this stranger comes through and 'reads their mail'...as a man of God, I would be afraid NOT to preach the word- no matter whose toes it stepped on- better to be accountable to God with a free conscience, in my opinion...

Yes and when the Holy Ghost speaks it will be correct.

[LadyChocolate]

I disagree with the premise you have stated.

I do not believe any one man can perfect the saints by himself.

I also disagree that an apostle always has all the other ministry gifts working at the same time.

I think men can be used in more than one office though.

I am a pastor when I am home.

When I preach out, I may be operating in a different office, such as teacher.


That is how I was always taught....I agree with you......But, I've heard a lot of things preached differently in different parts of the country.

[Sister Alvear]

a man that has EVERYTHING the church needs must be quite a man! I don't think is possible for HE gave different gifts to different people...I think EGO may be involved and a cult mentality...

[Sister Alvear]

Even Paul the great Apostle had men and women he gave credit to for helping in the gospel...No man is an island...we all need help...yet in our needing help we do not need somone to come and split the church! We do need a message from God right off the burning coals of the flaming alter and not some left overs that have nothing to do with the NOW and Present situation.
I believe in the 5 fold ministry...We need men to guide the camp that can see far beyond a vote...
Yet in all this I still believe God has an order...and the pastor is the highest office for the church...I do not think God will pass up the pastor and give the revelation to a saint...UNLESS the pastor is not right...God is a God of order...I am Brother Alvear's wife but it is not my place to sit the church in order and I probably work as hard as anyone for God to move here but if God speaks it will be through HIS order...and that does not mean that others cannot obey God. Of course they can! We have several people that are mightily used in the gifts...but even the gifts do not take away the pastor's authority...
Well this is just Mom Alvear's thoughts...

[Scott Hutchinson]

Even Paul the great Apostle had men and women he gave credit to for helping in the gospel...No man is an island...we all need help...yet in our needing help we do not need somone to come and split the church! We do need a message from God right off the burning coals of the flaming alter and not some left overs that have nothing to do with the NOW and Present situation.
I believe in the 5 fold ministry...We need men to guide the camp that can see far beyond a vote...
Yet in all this I still believe God has an order...and the pastor is the highest office for the church...I do not think God will pass up the pastor and give the revelation to a saint...UNLESS the pastor is not right...God is a God of order...I am Brother Alvear's wife but it is not my place to sit the church in order and I probably work as hard as anyone for God to move here but if God speaks it will be through HIS order...and that does not mean that others cannot obey God. Of course they can! We have several people that are mightily used in the gifts...but even the gifts do not take away the pastor's authority...
Well this is just Mom Alvear's thoughts...

MOM has great insights.