ALJC vs UPCI

[amh]

What's the difference?

[n david]

Both too liberal for me!

:lol

I'm kidding.

[Esaias]

Not much difference at the local church level. No doctrinal difference as far as I can tell. Like the UPC, some churches more liberal, some more conservative, it all depends on the local church. ALJC is a smaller denomination. Their rules for membership, bylaws, etc are probably different from UPC.

Same music, same look, same feel. You probably wouldn't notice a difference except maybe for the sign out front.

[good samaritan]

UPC incorporates local churches, the ALJC is only ministerial. I think this is correct unless it has changed. Doctrines the same, but every local church may vary slightly on standards. UPC is much larger, but have good friends in both. I would be in either depending on my location and which was most prominent in the area.

[amh]

I would be in either depending on my location and which was most prominent in the area.

What exactly do you mean when you say "most prominent in the area"?

[amh]

If they're so similar why don't they just merge?

[Jito463]

Probably for the same reason there was a recent split from the UPC, disagreements over standards. Just because we agree doctrinally, doesn't always mean we agree on everything. For some, that's enough to want separation from the organization. So long as we all agree on the important things (Bible doctrine), I'll still call them brother and sister. My own brother-in-law is part of an independent OP church.

[amh]

Probably for the same reason there was a recent split from the UPC, disagreements over standards.

Which ones?

[Jito463]

Well, relatively recent, anyway.

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/forumdisplay.php?f=46

[Steve Epley]

The major difference originally was governmental the UPC was more episcopal with church affiliation and the ALJC was more of a ministerial fellowship. Then later the major difference was the restriction of television ownership of a minister. Now that has been changed so in truth there isn't any difference.

[amh]

The major difference originally was governmental the UPC was more episcopal with church affiliation and the ALJC was more of a ministerial fellowship. Then later the major difference was the restriction of television ownership of a minister. Now that has been changed so in truth there isn't any difference.

Again, since there isn't a difference anymore I don't see why we don't just merge.

Can't you be licensed with both the ALJC and the UPCI?

[Servant's <3]

Last I recall you aren't allowed to be licensed with the UPCI and any other religious organization. I could be wrong though.

[n david]

Again, since there isn't a difference anymore I don't see why we don't just merge.

Can't you be licensed with both the ALJC and the UPCI?
It sounds simple, doesn't it? I wish Oneness Pentecost organizations who believe Acts 2:38 would work together. Unfortunately egos, prejudices and pride won't allow that to happen.

Servants <3 is correct, IIRC, the UPC doesn't allow its licensed ministers to hold license with another organization.

[Jermyn Davidson]

It sounds simple, doesn't it? I wish Oneness Pentecost organizations who believe Acts 2:38 would work together. Unfortunately egos, prejudices and pride won't allow that to happen.

Servants <3 is correct, IIRC, the UPC doesn't allow its licensed ministers to hold license with another organization.

But isn't that normal?

There is something to be said of loyalty.

Organizations can unite in projects and purpose and still retain their individual identities.

[n david]

But isn't that normal?
Now-days it is.

There is something to be said of loyalty.
Yes, but loyal to whom? If loyalty for an organization supercedes loyalty to God and spreading the Gospel, it's not good.

Organizations can unite in projects and purpose and still retain their individual identities.
They could. I believe there's a symposium in which the UPC, PAW and other Oneness Pentecostal organizations meet and discuss issues in St. Louis.

I would love to see a city-wide crusade in some metro where all Oneness Pentecostals came together for evangelistic services. Of course the issue then is the fight over which local church the visitors to the crusade would attend.

Again, egos, prejudice and pride prevent this kind of thing from ever happening.

[Servant's <3]

I did not intend that to be a criticism on the UPC. I love being in the UPC. I was merely making an observation.

[Jermyn Davidson]

I did not intend that to be a criticism on the UPC. I love being in the UPC. I was merely making an observation.

I don't think anyone is criticizing one organization over the other. They are just stating the facts as they are today.

I personally see nothing wrong with having separate organizations and would love to see the organizations unite projects and purposes that bring GLORY to God.

Then comes the question-- who's church will the new converts attend?

The answer-- let the new converts choose.

[amh]

Last I recall you aren't allowed to be licensed with the UPCI and any other religious organization. I could be wrong though.

I actually asked that because the Associate Pastor at my church (UPCI) is licensed with the ALJC. I wondered if he could be (or would have to be) licensed with both because he's allowed to preach there.

[good samaritan]

I actually asked that because the Associate Pastor at my church (UPCI) is licensed with the ALJC. I wondered if he could be (or would have to be) licensed with both because he's allowed to preach there.

As far as I know, who preaches in the local churches of the UPC is decided on at the local level unless they have been dis-fellowshiped for some reason. That decision probably falls on the pastor at the local level. I meant prominant by what offers the most and best fellowship for me personally at a local level. I wouldn't want to drive 3hrs away to fellowship neigboring churches. I would be a part of the fellowship that would be best for my local area. I hope I am making sense. UPC, ALJC, non-denom. OP's, doesn't matter to me as long as they are preaching truth. You can find error anywhere if you look hard enough, but overall they are both good.

[amh]

Do you think more conservative UPC churches would have trouble letting someone from another organization preach there, regardless of how conservative that someone is?

[good samaritan]

I don't think anyone is criticizing one organization over the other. They are just stating the facts as they are today.

I personally see nothing wrong with having separate organizations and would love to see the organizations unite projects and purposes that bring GLORY to God.

Then comes the question-- who's church will the new converts attend?

The answer-- let the new converts choose.

I believe this takes place on a local level also. I believe there are places they probably do work in co-operation, but I feel that depends on the local area pastors personal attitudes. Matter of fact, there is an ALJC pastor near our church that I treat with the same courtesy I would a Local UPC church. He is a brother in the Lord. I've even preached for him before. There are some bad apples in every bunch, but I have had overall good experience from both.

[good samaritan]

Do you think more conservative UPC churches would have trouble letting someone from another organization preach there, regardless of how conservative that someone is?

Depends on what you mean by another org. I feel like most pastors wouldn't want someone with different doctrinal beliefs preaching in their churches. If the doctrines are the same I don't see a problem, but again that is decided on in every individual location.

[good samaritan]

Is there something that you are getting at?

[amh]

Depends on what you mean by another org. I feel like most pastors wouldn't want someone with different doctrinal beliefs preaching in their churches. If the doctrines are the same I don't see a problem, but again that is decided on in every individual location.

I just meant ALJC, PAW, maybe even WPF (not that I think anyone from WPF would ever associate with any UPCer lol).

[good samaritan]

I pastor a small UPC church and I have had a Baptist speak at our church. I was clear about my expectations beforehand. He had an awesome testimony and although we disagreed doctrinally I don't steal on his experiences with God. I prayed that he would get the Holy Ghost days before the event. lol.

[amh]

Would you consider yourself conservative though?

[good samaritan]

I do. I may not be as harsh as some, but we still hold standards that may make us old fogey to some. We present things in love and we are patient with people.

[Servant's <3]

Wait wait wait.... Presenting things in love and being patient is "old fogeyism"?

By that definition the whole UPC is nothing but "old fogeyism".

[good samaritan]

I was referring to standards.

[Servant's <3]

I don't understand why people struggle so mightily against standards. I'm not saying my church is the most strict or conservative... we are in a large city and some of the things people who go to our church do I don't necessarily agree with.

If I had a pastor that had very conservative standards I would make EVERY attempt to abide by them.

That being said, my personal standards exceed my church's standards in some respects.

I hope that all pastors preach standards out of love and prevention instead of tradition.

[good samaritan]

Many standards were clear in years gone past, but because of the culture of our day it seems harder and harder for people to get. I preach the absolutes and teach the things that may be more grey. If people take care of the heart then standards aren't a real issue. We may disagree on some of them, but there will be fruit on the vine if a person is really in relationship with God.

[amh]

Wait wait wait.... Presenting things in love and being patient is "old fogeyism"?

By that definition the whole UPC is nothing but "old fogeyism".

That might not exactly be true, but it should be.

[amh]

That being said, my personal standards exceed my church's standards in some respects.

What do you mean by that?

[aegsm76]

I just meant ALJC, PAW, maybe even WPF (not that I think anyone from WPF would ever associate with any UPCer lol).

I associate with both UPC and WPF.
I know of numerous churches who also do so.

[amh]

I just meant to say that from what I've heard, which, granted, isn't that much, WPF members don't take to UPCers very well. The fact that they sometimes fellowship together isn't really much of a surprise.

[Servant's <3]

I mean that the standards your pastor sets are the minimum. You can if you feel convicted go beyond them.

An example. Your church can preach no cutting of the hair and wearing of skirts. Maybe the pastor doesn't preach against makeup. Does that mean you can't still not wear makeup?

Or skirts but not skirts to the ankles, you can still only wear skirts that go to the ankles.

[amh]

I mean that the standards your pastor sets are the minimum. You can if you feel convicted go beyond them.

An example. Your church can preach no cutting of the hair and wearing of skirts. Maybe the pastor doesn't preach against makeup. Does that mean you can't still not wear makeup?

Or skirts but not skirts to the ankles, you can still only wear skirts that go to the ankles.

I mean you personally.

[Esphes45]

If they're so similar why don't they just merge?

Excellent question!!!!!! That makes too much sense. Too much like right.:yourock

[amh]

Because no one does anything that makes sense anymore!

[amh]

Well, sort of. He used to be my pastor when he pastored the Crooksville daughter work of the Anchor Church, but my actual pastor is Anthony Richard. I go to the Zanesville church for Sunday evening services and on Wednesdays for youth group. He's my bishop.

[CC1]

What's the difference?

Easy question. ALJC has four letters in it's abbreviation while the UPC has three. Unless of course you use the full abbreviation for United Pentecostal Church International, UPCI, in which case both have four letters.:happydance

[amh]

Still don't see why they don't merge. I mean, there has to be something that makes it impossible or I bet they would've by now.

[Michael The Disciple]

I agree they should merge.

[amh]

It would just make one, strong, Apostolic organization. The only thing that could keep them from doing it is pride.

[aegsm76]

It would just make one, strong, Apostolic organization. The only thing that could keep them from doing it is pride.

That seems rather harsh and non-understanding.
It is not just as simple as it may seem, to you, to merge organizations.

[amh]

That seems rather harsh and non-understanding.
It is not just as simple as it may seem, to you, to merge organizations.

Sorry that it might seem that way. I understand that it isn't simple, but I know that it's very possible. I say that it might be a pride issue because I know how leadership works and I know that, as sad as it might be, people seldom want to give up positions of authority, even if it benefits almost everyone else.

The problem, at least what I think it might be, is that the heads of the organizations are content because they are the heads of the organizations.

[Esaias]

Sorry that it might seem that way. I understand that it isn't simple, but I know that it's very possible. I say that it might be a pride issue because I know how leadership works and I know that, as sad as it might be, people seldom want to give up positions of authority, even if it benefits almost everyone else.

The problem, at least what I think it might be, is that the heads of the organizations are content because they are the heads of the organizations.

If you were an ALJC pastor, what would be the benefit to merging with another org?

How would a merger accomplish anything? What EXACTLY would be the point? How would it benefit both groups?

Make the case, please.

[amh]

If you were an ALJC pastor, what would be the benefit to merging with another org?

How would a merger accomplish anything? What EXACTLY would be the point? How would it benefit both groups?

Make the case, please.

1. I'm not sure anything would change but the organization you're licensed with.

2-4. It would prove that we're not allegiant to any specific org. The UPCLJC (I like it!) would show that we care less about organizational ties and more about unification in purpose and doctrine. That would benefit everyone.

I mean, I don't really know if that's a good enough reason. I'm fifteen. I should just shut up.

[amh]

What do you think Michael?

[Servant's <3]

You are an idealist in a world that is far from it as possible. It would be expensive to merge. That is probably the biggest reason.

Is it right that money should be a reason... no...

However, there would have to be long lasting and mutual benefits to all individuals in both groups for them to consider it.

[amh]

You are an idealist in a world that is far from it as possible. It would be expensive to merge. That is probably the biggest reason.

Is it right that money should be a reason... no...

However, there would have to be long lasting and mutual benefits to all individuals in both groups for them to consider it.

Yeah. I was going to mention money issues but I didn't want to.

I can't think of any terrible disadvantages for anyone though. ALJCers already go to UPCI events, no one goes to ALJC events (lol just kidding), so things like camp meetings and conferences wouldn't change much. They'd just be bigger, which might not be the best thing in the world but it wouldn't hurt that much.

I guess I am an idealist but praise God for that because I used to be an awful pessimist.

[Servant's <3]

I would not characterize myself as a pessimist.... I hope for idealism but I act like a realist.

The apostle Paul was a realist in my opinion.

[commonsense]

:2cents A bit off topic, but as a child in the North.......for approx 10 yrs(maybe more)..
There were 4 UPC churches and 3 PAW churches that formed their own unofficial alliance of churches for the purpose of fellowship.

I was a child in the 1950's so my memory may be off :)
We had monthly fellowship meetings at various churches____probably an unofficial rotation. And every summer we had Bible Camp. That was what it was called. Rented a county campground. One yr UPC picked evangelist and the next yr the PAW made the selection. Fabulous services!!!

Breakfast
(I'm sure there was also prayer)
AM--classes for children (not sure about the adults:) )

Noon:Lunch== not part of the cheap weekly cost:) you purchased a la carte

Then recreation for all { baseball on a sandlot down the road and around the bend...and a very blue,clear lake for swimming.....while the girls went swimming== the boys were playing ball+++when we dried our hair etc the boys went swimming________
did I mention>>rustic! as in a pump for water and outhouses?
The lake was our bath/shower for the day!!!
We took shampoo down to the lake with us:heeheehee

2pm afternoon Bible Study--I just remember really good Bible teaching

4pm supper

6pm choir practice
7 or 7:30 evening service

My point is that we had very good unity among the 2 organizations....this was not sanctioned by either organization as far I know/ in da north...this was in part due to geography--not only 2 organizations but also 2 states.

Yes, there were no doubt differences in standards____but when you are 7 or 8 , not an issue:highfive

This ended approx 1964____________new ministers on the scene may have not shared the unity/friendship.

Now there is too much ME MY MINE......unfortunately God is not the 1st choice _______________

[Barb]

When I was a young'un in the church I knew only about 'us' and 'them'...the 'them' in this mix was anyone who was not 'us': Trinitarian Pentecostals, Baptists, Catholics, etc.

Today the 'us' and 'them' mindset is widespread within the Apostolic church. In my opinion, there is too much of this sectarian mentality among us to ever have another merger.

Sadly we will never again see the cohesiveness and mutual respect for a differing view that we saw in 1945, more's the pity.

[good samaritan]

I have noticed people focus on a major problem that is too big for any one person to solve. We should focus on the small part we play and it is amazing the results that may come. a small ripple created in a pond can somewhat grow and move the surface of the entire pond. Be a person who seeks unity without offending. Sometimes people may create disunity for the cause of unity. Ironic. Influence others not by you words, but by your life.

[amh]

:2cents A bit off topic, but as a child in the North.......for approx 10 yrs(maybe more)..
There were 4 UPC churches and 3 PAW churches that formed their own unofficial alliance of churches for the purpose of fellowship.

I was a child in the 1950's so my memory may be off :)
We had monthly fellowship meetings at various churches____probably an unofficial rotation. And every summer we had Bible Camp. That was what it was called. Rented a county campground. One yr UPC picked evangelist and the next yr the PAW made the selection. Fabulous services!!!

Breakfast
(I'm sure there was also prayer)
AM--classes for children (not sure about the adults:) )

Noon:Lunch== not part of the cheap weekly cost:) you purchased a la carte

Then recreation for all { baseball on a sandlot down the road and around the bend...and a very blue,clear lake for swimming.....while the girls went swimming== the boys were playing ball+++when we dried our hair etc the boys went swimming________
did I mention>>rustic! as in a pump for water and outhouses?
The lake was our bath/shower for the day!!!
We took shampoo down to the lake with us:heeheehee

2pm afternoon Bible Study--I just remember really good Bible teaching

4pm supper

6pm choir practice
7 or 7:30 evening service

My point is that we had very good unity among the 2 organizations....this was not sanctioned by either organization as far I know/ in da north...this was in part due to geography--not only 2 organizations but also 2 states.

Yes, there were no doubt differences in standards____but when you are 7 or 8 , not an issue:highfive

This ended approx 1964____________new ministers on the scene may have not shared the unity/friendship.

Now there is too much ME MY MINE......unfortunately God is not the 1st choice _______________

This is wonderful. I wish it was more like that now.

[amh]

When I was a young'un in the church I knew only about 'us' and 'them'...the 'them' in this mix was anyone who was not 'us': Trinitarian Pentecostals, Baptists, Catholics, etc.

Today the 'us' and 'them' mindset is widespread within the Apostolic church. In my opinion, there is too much of this sectarian mentality among us to ever have another merger.

Sadly we will never again see the cohesiveness and mutual respect for a differing view that we saw in 1945, more's the pity.

It's all very saddening, to think organization matters more than beliefs these days.

[Servant's <3]

Why do you think organization matters more than belief? Anyone with any sense would not say that fellowship can only be had with those of a particular organization.

I would not be averse to fellowship with ALJC'ers. Especially considering the similarities in doctrinal beliefs.

That being said mergers do not HAVE to happen to have harmony.

[Bowas]

The "United" part of the UPC is from when they did merge/unite several years ago with various Pentecostal organizations.
If the UPCI and ALJC did merge, that would not be all the oneness organizations left out there. According to this link, http://www.apostolic-churches.com/organizations.html there are many oneness organizations.
I see no need to merge them all into one super organization, any more than I feel all hamburger fast foods restaurants should merge into McDonalds. While they all server burgers, fries and drinks, some prefer the taste or service of Burger King over McDonalds. Leave it alone and attend what suits you.

[amh]

Why do you think organization matters more than belief? Anyone with any sense would not say that fellowship can only be had with those of a particular organization.

I would not be averse to fellowship with ALJC'ers. Especially considering the similarities in doctrinal beliefs.

That being said mergers do not HAVE to happen to have harmony.

And mergers don't have to happen. I just like the idea of it.

I just know a few UPCers that essentially idolize the org. They think it's better than any other and if you point out any flaw that it might have they get offended. That faction before blood mentality is wrong. I'm UPC now but if the UPC ever stops preaching sound doctrine, I'm out.

[amh]

The "United" part of the UPC is from when they did merge/unite several years ago with various Pentecostal organizations.
If the UPCI and ALJC did merge, that would not be all the oneness organizations left out there. According to this link, http://www.apostolic-churches.com/organizations.html there are many oneness organizations.
I see no need to merge them all into one super organization, any more than I feel all hamburger fast foods restaurants should merge into McDonalds. While they all server burgers, fries and drinks, some prefer the taste or service of Burger King over McDonalds. Leave it alone and attend what suits you.

Good point but the reason I say specifically ALJC and UPCI should merge is because they already have the same flavour.

[Servant's <3]

Is not the whole point of the UPC other than fellowship, to preach sound doctrine... who preaches doctrine that they don't think is sound?

Pretty sure all the denominations think they preach sound doctrine. Doesn't make them correct. I think what you meant was as soon as I think they have stopped preaching sound doctrine, I'm out.

I could be wrong in what I think is sound doctrine. Hence i pray and fast and what not when I come across things I don't understand. Doesn't necessarily mean the doctrine is or isn't sound. Merely that I don't understand it.

[Esaias]

1. I'm not sure anything would change but the organization you're licensed with.

2-4. It would prove that we're not allegiant to any specific org. The UPCLJC (I like it!) would show that we care less about organizational ties and more about unification in purpose and doctrine. That would benefit everyone.

I mean, I don't really know if that's a good enough reason. I'm fifteen. I should just shut up.


No you shouldn't shut up. But you should be aware that a merger is essentially no different than a corporate merger. Such things are never simple but are often complicated. Legally, financially, organizationally, etc things are quite complicated.

Me personally I don't even believe in licensing or denominations anyway so it's all just interesting discussion for me.

[amh]

Is not the whole point of the UPC other than fellowship, to preach sound doctrine... who preaches doctrine that they don't think is sound?

Pretty sure all the denominations think they preach sound doctrine. Doesn't make them correct. I think what you meant was as soon as I think they have stopped preaching sound doctrine, I'm out.

I could be wrong in what I think is sound doctrine. Hence i pray and fast and what not when I come across things I don't understand. Doesn't necessarily mean the doctrine is or isn't sound. Merely that I don't understand it.

That is exactly what I mean.

[amh]

No you shouldn't shut up. But you should be aware that a merger is essentially no different than a corporate merger. Such things are never simple but are often complicated. Legally, financially, organizationally, etc things are quite complicated.

Me personally I don't even believe in licensing or denominations anyway so it's all just interesting discussion for me.

I should know a lot about this sort of thing soon. For a long time I've wanted to be a corporate merger. It's still not decided yet but I might taking some extra classes (like business and stuff) this summer.

[aegsm76]

There are fundamental issues between the orgs that would be problematic.
One that quickly comes to mind is that some ALJC pastors are former UPCI pastors who could not go back to the UPCI as licensed ministers.

[Michael The Disciple]

What do you think Michael?

Well I agree with you it would be good to have a larger more visible "Apostolic" presence. If they agree on doctrine it would be right. As stated pride and ego hinders.

[aegsm76]

It is not as simple a problem as pride and ego.

There are some basic views that are different.

[n david]

There are fundamental issues between the orgs that would be problematic.
One that quickly comes to mind is that some ALJC pastors are former UPCI pastors who could not go back to the UPCI as licensed ministers.
One ALJC Pastor I knew growing up was in a UP church, but could not be licensed due to a divorce, so he went to the ALJC. AFAIK, he's still pastoring there.

[amh]

There are fundamental issues between the orgs that would be problematic.
One that quickly comes to mind is that some ALJC pastors are former UPCI pastors who could not go back to the UPCI as licensed ministers.

Why couldn't they go back?

[amh]

One ALJC Pastor I knew growing up was in a UP church, but could not be licensed due to a divorce, so he went to the ALJC. AFAIK, he's still pastoring there.

My pastor's been divorced.

[amh]

It is not as simple a problem as pride and ego.

There are some basic views that are different.

Like what? After all, that was my original question.

[n david]

My pastor's been divorced.
I believe it depends on the circumstance of the divorce. Who divorces whom, whether it has Biblical backing, etc.

[Servant's <3]

One thing I know. One caInot be a licensed UPC minister and have been involved in adultery in the past. I don't know about ALJC. It might be the same.

[amh]

I believe it depends on the circumstance of the divorce. Who divorces whom, whether it has Biblical backing, etc.

Oh. I'm not sure about any of that.

[n david]

One thing I know. One caInot be a licensed UPC minister and have been involved in adultery in the past. I don't know about ALJC. It might be the same.
Even if it was pre-conversion?

[amh]

Even if it was pre-conversion?

I mean, they license previous heroin addicts so I don't see why they wouldn't license previous adulterers. Not much of a difference.

[Servant's <3]

Oh... and what biblical reason is there for divorce? I believe yes even if it was pre-conversion... again I could be wrong.

[amh]

Oh... and what biblical reason is there for divorce? I believe yes even if it was pre-conversion... again I could be wrong.

1st Corinthians says that if your spouse is not a believer, and they wish to separate, you may for the sake of peace.

I believe there's some scripure in 2nd Corinthians about it too but I'm not sure where.

[n david]

Oh... and what biblical reason is there for divorce?
The only Biblical reasons I know are either if the spouse commits adultery, or the spouse leaves you. Both are because of the actions of the spouse, not you. Other than that, even if the spouse is an unbeliever, if the spouse chooses to remain with you, you cannot Biblically divorce.

[Servant's <3]

I am not aware of any reason two people may be divorced.

Ephesians 5:25.... after all

[Steve Epley]

Not a spiritual perspective but a real one just the same. Guys who have spent all their time, energy, money in the ALJC wouldn't be interested in seeing it dissolved it has been part of their lives nearly all their lives. The relationship between the two groups is probably better than it had been ever. The present chairman has really tried in offering the olive branch to other Pentecostals that believe the necessity of the new birth and some form of outward standards. Since the television prohibition is gone I don't know any major differences?

[amh]

I am not aware of any reason two people may be divorced.

Ephesians 5:25.... after all

Yes Ephesians 5:25 but also other verses.

[n david]

I believe yes even if it was pre-conversion... again I could be wrong.
I knew a rocker who turned UPC minister. He's a Pastor now. Before his conversion, he was in a rock band doing the whole sex, drugs and rock and roll. He preached at the church my father pastored and gave his testimony. IIRC he didn't get married until after he was in church a while.

[n david]

Matt 5:31, 32
31 "It has been said, 'Anyone who divorces his wife must give her a certificate of divorce.'
32 But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery.
.

[Servant's <3]

When it says husband's love your wives as Christ loved the church, Can the church do ANYTHING that Christ does not love it?

From my perspective, and remember I am nobody, if I were to marry there is NO REASON i could consent to a divorce. That is not to say I would not be absolutely crushed should the unfathomable happen. But to put divorce on the table is tantamount to saying I cannot forgive her or I do not love her. Maybe that could change... and again I am not anyone's judge or authority, but that is my perspective. Those that do not forgive will not be forgiven. I need forgiveness every second of every day.

[good samaritan]

I was talking to some elderly people between 80 and 90 here recently. Each had been married on weak conditions. They were leaving to get away from home against their parents wishes. One even lied on their age to get by with it. In the 1920's and 30's it amazes me that people married that where too young and didn't even know the other person and they lasted 50+ years and I ask what has changed.

IMO, the roles have changed. In those days the family depended on one another. The man was the protector and provider of the home and without his key role they would struggle to make it. That roles is no longer distinctive and now both male and female can find equal opportunity and the husband is not as important. Divorce is imminent.

There is a message in this. God is an option with people, and His role is no longer important to them. No longer do we live off the land and depend on the natural elements like rain and sunshine. People now place all importance on having money and good insurance. This is off subject I know, but the last couple of posts made me think about this.

[Servant's <3]

Although, I hope I NEVER EVER EVER EVER have to put that to the test. The idea of doing that to someone or it being done to me is unconscionable.

[good samaritan]

What are you referring to?

[Servant's <3]

Adultery. Having to forgive a spouse for that.

[good samaritan]

I agree. That would be a tough position to be in.

[amh]

I agree. That would be a tough position to be in.

I can't even imagine.

[n david]

When it says husband's love your wives as Christ loved the church, Can the church do ANYTHING that Christ does not love it?

From my perspective, and remember I am nobody, if I were to marry there is NO REASON i could consent to a divorce. That is not to say I would not be absolutely crushed should the unfathomable happen. But to put divorce on the table is tantamount to saying I cannot forgive her or I do not love her. Maybe that could change... and again I am not anyone's judge or authority, but that is my perspective. Those that do not forgive will not be forgiven. I need forgiveness every second of every day.
I have a friend here who married a girl and had a couple kids. After being married several years, he found out she was having multiple affairs. It devastated him. She cried and begged forgiveness, said it was over and wouldn't happen again. Even as hurt and broken as my friend was, he forgave her.

Less than a year later, he calls. She was back out, having sex with multiple men. She didn't care when he found out. She started going to clubs and doing drugs, continuing her flings.

This time he filed for divorce and got full custody of the kids.

His is a rare example, but I agree with his decision. In fact, I questioned his decision to stick with her after the first time.

I do believe in forgiveness and love; however, if the spouse is unwilling to change and continues having affairs, there's no way I would remain with that spouse.

[good samaritan]

Hypothetically, what a horrible thing to find out that your spouse contract a std and infect you with it. There are good reasons why people are better to remain faithfull to one person. If there is something lacking in the relationship then communicate and work on it. I don't see what a person has to go out to find that can't take place at home. Don't mean to be graphic.

[amh]

Hypothetically, what a horrible thing to find out that your spouse contract a std and infect you with it. There are good reasons why people are better to remain faithfull to one person. If there is something lacking in the relationship then communicate and work on it. I don't see what a person has to go out to find that can't take place at home. Don't mean to be graphic.

It's true though. I know of so many relationships that could've been spared if everyone would've just talked it out.

[aegsm76]

I knew a rocker who turned UPC minister. He's a Pastor now. Before his conversion, he was in a rock band doing the whole sex, drugs and rock and roll. He preached at the church my father pastored and gave his testimony. IIRC he didn't get married until after he was in church a while.

I know that guy!

[n david]

I know that guy!
:thumbsup

Pastor of a church in Washington state, right? He's with the WPF now.

He preached a series of services for the church my father pastored back in the early-mid 90s. It was awesome.

[Hesetmefree238]

Even if it was pre-conversion?

NO, this rule only applies to those in the ministry who have fallen into adultery while they were licensed ministers

[Servant's <3]

Ah, well we are better informed then.

[n david]

NO, this rule only applies to those in the ministry who have fallen into adultery while they were licensed ministers
That makes sense.

[2theX]

Hows it going fellas? mind if i jump in?

[Servant's <3]

Again, since there isn't a difference anymore I don't see why we don't just merge.

Can't you be licensed with both the ALJC and the UPCI?

Long as you are bringing us back to the original subject. LOL

[2theX]

I glanced though several of the postings on here.. very interesting.
Bro Epley mentioned the difference between the two was that one was "Episcopal" (UPCI) and the other "Ministerial" (ALJC)
That sounds like a significant difference.
Can anyone expound on that for clarification?

[Steve Epley]

I glanced though several of the postings on here.. very interesting.
Bro Epley mentioned the difference between the two was that one was "Episcopal" (UPCI) and the other "Ministerial" (ALJC)
That sounds like a significant difference.
Can anyone expound on that for clarification?

That was the original,difference the UPC has moved toward a ministerial fellowship in the last couple of decades although they yet affiliate churches and exercise more authority over their members(preachers).

[2theX]

One reason I think the UPC and ALJC might not want to merge is because (correct me if I'm wrong)
Is that the UPCI has certain "territorial" influences that wont allow other UPCI pastors within there "boundaries".
So if a UPC minister wanted to start a fellowship in the "area",
They have to "ask" permission from headquarters: who in turn ask permission from the pastor in that territory to have another pastor come into that Pastor's "territory".
That can be blessing or curse depending on who's sort of in charge of that "territory".
Or in some circumstances that particular territorial pastor may offer the proposing minister to be a daughter work in rare cases.
That way all the Tithes of all the "Territorial" pastors discretion would still come directly to him if any church members of his were to go there. (yes.. you heard that correctly: the Tithes would go to The Leading Pastor)
I hear some if these ole boys (pastors) can get rather unreasonable and downright stingy about there territories which in turn can hurt the growth of the kingdom of God.
So the politics can get rather messy.
So if another pastor comes from another oneness; like ALJC, then there's not much the prominent UPC Pastor can do about it.
So I personally think its good that there Not together. (although they should get along)
I think things should be kept in balance.
The pharisees gained a lot of control through this kind of political "correctness" of "territories".
Id love to think both groups are Angelic by nature.
But there's a carnal side to man even in those that have a calling to lead that is hard to tame once money is involved. (its in all of us, I'm not excluded) Especially when money and receiving tithing is involved and the like.
(wow.. i can feel the stones flying over my head as we speak about this)
So not wanting someone to come in and take "tithers" can be a real threat to some leaders.
That's not the only reason they wouldn't want some other minister to come onto there turf, there's legitimate ones as well.
But To sum it up I disagree with most. I think the two should stay divided for the sake of the Gospel.
That's why its so important for leaders to be transparent in how they spend the offerings of the Lords basket.
[/I] I really believe there's a very real lesson in the health of church's spiritual dominion by what and how that Pastor of that "territory" spends the Lords Basket- by that one fact alone.
This would declare his worthiness or unworthiness in so many ways.

[2theX]

That was the original,difference the UPC has moved toward a ministerial fellowship in the last couple of decades although they yet affiliate churches and exercise more authority over their members(preachers).

Thanks for the clarification.
That's very interesting!
I really appreciate that.

[aegsm76]

One reason I think the UPC and ALJC might not want to merge is because (correct me if I'm wrong)
Is that the UPCI has certain "territorial" influences that wont allow other UPCI pastors within there "boundaries".
So if a UPC minister wanted to start a fellowship in the "area",
They have to "ask" permission from headquarters: who in turn ask permission from the pastor in that territory to have another pastor come into that Pastor's "territory".
That can be blessing or curse depending on who's sort of in charge of that "territory".
Or in some circumstances that particular territorial pastor may offer the proposing minister to be a daughter work in rare cases.
That way all the Tithes of all the "Territorial" pastors discretion would still come directly to him if any church members of his were to go there. (yes.. you heard that correctly: the Tithes would go to The Leading Pastor)
I hear some if these ole boys (pastors) can get rather unreasonable and downright stingy about there territories which in turn can hurt the growth of the kingdom of God.
So the politics can get rather messy.
So if another pastor comes from another oneness; like ALJC, then there's not much the prominent UPC Pastor can do about it.
So I personally think its good that there Not together. (although they should get along)
I think things should be kept in balance.
The pharisees gained a lot of control through this kind of political "correctness" of "territories".
Id love to think both groups are Angelic by nature.
But there's a carnal side to man even in those that have a calling to lead that is hard to tame once money is involved. (its in all of us, I'm not excluded) Especially when money and receiving tithing is involved and the like.
(wow.. i can feel the stones flying over my head as we speak about this)
So not wanting someone to come in and take "tithers" can be a real threat to some leaders.
That's not the only reason they wouldn't want some other minister to come onto there turf, there's legitimate ones as well.
But To sum it up I disagree with most. I think the two should stay divided for the sake of the Gospel.
That's why its so important for leaders to be transparent in how they spend the offerings of the Lords basket.
[/I] I really believe there's a very real lesson in the health of church's spiritual dominion by what and how that Pastor of that "territory" spends the Lords Basket- by that one fact alone.
This would declare his worthiness or unworthiness in so many ways.

Just need to correct some things here. UPCI headquarters is not who gives "license" to someone who wants to start a church. That is typically done at the district level.
As with anything involving us "humans", (even Christians), this can become somewhat messy on both sides.
I have seen more cases where the ok was given and it should not have been, rather than the opposite.

[Jito463]

One reason I think the UPC and ALJC might not want to merge is because (correct me if I'm wrong)
Is that the UPCI has certain "territorial" influences that wont allow other UPCI pastors within there "boundaries".
So if a UPC minister wanted to start a fellowship in the "area",
They have to "ask" permission from headquarters: who in turn ask permission from the pastor in that territory to have another pastor come into that Pastor's "territory".
That can be blessing or curse depending on who's sort of in charge of that "territory".
Or in some circumstances that particular territorial pastor may offer the proposing minister to be a daughter work in rare cases.
That way all the Tithes of all the "Territorial" pastors discretion would still come directly to him if any church members of his were to go there. (yes.. you heard that correctly: the Tithes would go to The Leading Pastor)
I hear some if these ole boys (pastors) can get rather unreasonable and downright stingy about there territories which in turn can hurt the growth of the kingdom of God.

I don't believe this information is correct. I've been in the UPC my whole life, and I've never heard this. I will attempt to confirm this information, but I doubt it's veracity. I'm not accusing you of lying, I just believe you're misinformed and/or misunderstand.

[Sean]

I don't believe this information is correct. I've been in the UPC my whole life, and I've never heard this. I will attempt to confirm this information, but I doubt it's veracity. I'm not accusing you of lying, I just believe you're misinformed and/or misunderstand.



Jito, this is fact.

There is a territorial pastor in my town of 60,000 that has had a dinky congregation of 50 for about 80 years. He wont let others' in UPC evangelize this town by starting another church. To do so, you must not be UPC.(I know him personally and others' affected by him personally)

[good samaritan]

This is true, but is not meant to be a bad thing. I believe this was put in place to keep two men from going into a community and sqaubling over congregants. If there is already a church that is teaching truth and you feel a burden for that area why not just go help him that is already there. If I know that God wants me to specifically do something then it shouldn't matter what men say, but a lot of times men are only looking for a leading role. It is possible that a minister in a town could try to block anyone else, but it is the exception and not the rule. There are two UPC churches in our city and about 4 in a neighboring city and it works fine. There is a bad apple in every bunch.

[Sean]

G.S. the congregants dont belong to the pastors. How can they fight over something thats not theirs?

[Sean]

Think about it hard bro.(meanwhile, folks are lost)

[good samaritan]

G.S. the congregants dont belong to the pastors. How can they fight over something thats not theirs?

I agree with that, but it still happens. There is human element in everything we do and bylaws are to protect. I have had people who have left our church when I first began pastoring here who I hated to see go, but I still showed them kindness and we split paths on good terms. I hope they are doing well. There are some people in our church who I have recommended them go to another church because of it being more convenient on their travel time. They are not a problem either, but I would rather someone be somewhere else then to be overstretched by a long drive and quit altogether.

[Sean]

The name of the game is treat folks right and teach them truth, then they will WANT to hang with you.

If there are 2 churches across the street from each other(one yours), true love will draw the souls to your congregation.

[n david]

One reason I think the UPC and ALJC might not want to merge is because (correct me if I'm wrong)
Is that the UPCI has certain "territorial" influences that wont allow other UPCI pastors within there "boundaries".
So if a UPC minister wanted to start a fellowship in the "area",
They have to "ask" permission from headquarters: who in turn ask permission from the pastor in that territory to have another pastor come into that Pastor's "territory".
That can be blessing or curse depending on who's sort of in charge of that "territory".
Or in some circumstances that particular territorial pastor may offer the proposing minister to be a daughter work in rare cases.
That way all the Tithes of all the "Territorial" pastors discretion would still come directly to him if any church members of his were to go there. (yes.. you heard that correctly: the Tithes would go to The Leading Pastor)
I hear some if these ole boys (pastors) can get rather unreasonable and downright stingy about there territories which in turn can hurt the growth of the kingdom of God.
This is true! I know this from personal experience. Growing up, there was a church in a metro area whose Pastor was on the DB and would fight any time someone wanted to start a church near his. AFAIK, there still isn't a church within 10 miles because won't allow it.

Also, the last UPC church I attended, before I left the UPC, had a big fight with another Pastor who did not want the church to be located where it was, because it was within 5 miles of his church.

It's funny you mention daughter works, because this Pastor said the only way he'd allow it is if it was a daughter work of the church he Pastored. And a portion of the tithes would go to him.

He ended up losing the fight when the DB ruled against him and told the other Pastor he could go ahead and start a church at the location he wanted.

[good samaritan]

The name of the game is treat folks right and teach them truth, then they will WANT to hang with you.

If there are 2 churches across the street from each other(one yours), true love will draw the souls to your congregation.

true that!

[2theX]

I don't believe this information is correct. I've been in the UPC my whole life, and I've never heard this. I will attempt to confirm this information, but I doubt it's veracity. I'm not accusing you of lying, I just believe you're misinformed and/or misunderstand.

With all due respect:
Please do inform me.
I will gladly correct any misinformation.

[2theX]

The facts are correct.

[CC1]

I don't believe this information is correct. I've been in the UPC my whole life, and I've never heard this. I will attempt to confirm this information, but I doubt it's veracity. I'm not accusing you of lying, I just believe you're misinformed and/or misunderstand.

That information is correct. I don't know what the exact criteria is but I do know that a UPC pastor in a town can veto another UPC licensed minister from starting a church there.

You would hope there are limitations so that heavy population centers would allow for a second or third church even if a local pastor doesn't want it.

[Steve Epley]

That information is correct. I don't know what the exact criteria is but I do know that a UPC pastor in a town can veto another UPC licensed minister from starting a church there.

You would hope there are limitations so that heavy population centers would allow for a second or third church even if a local pastor doesn't want it.

Originally it was the founding pastor but became enlarged.

[good samaritan]

If people wish to start a preaching point in any town regardless of whether there is another church it is processed through a district home missions board. That local pastor will have influence in their decision, but he cannot just veto it and kill it in its tracks. If someone knows for sure the will of God though then they should obey God and a license from any org. doesn't make us called. The UPC has been an overall pleasure in my experience.

[good samaritan]

In most cases I believe the procedures have worked well, but there are always going to be those exceptions. We are humans.