Pastors. How to paralyze the Hebrew Roots doctrine

[Sean]

This thread is not a intended to be a debate thread. To some it may be "read only".

I have personally witnessed an epidemic sweeping though much of Christianity called Hebrew Roots.

It is far different than minor doctrines of the church, because it is a direct attack on the most fundamental Church teaching. The doctrine of Grace.

The Hebrew Roots brethren are opposing the ministry with very articulate arguments, causing wonderful, solid, Apostolic brethren and from every other Christian faith, to go back to try and keep the Law.

It is late, but I will in the coming days, explain how it is sweeping into the Christian Church and how to prevent it from ever occurring in your Church.

It definitely is preventable, but one most be able to clearly see the proper usage of the doctrine of Grace to keep the Church Law free.

Thanks, see you Monday, etc.

God bless.

[Aquila]

I'm interested in hearing your approach. I've encountered the Hebrew roots movement quite a bit in recent years.

I normally just approach them out of the book of Galatians, which was written in response to the "Judaizers" of the early church.

God bless.

[Michael The Disciple]

Sean

It definitely is preventable, but one most be able to clearly see the proper usage of the doctrine of Grace to keep the Church Law free.

Your way to late. Most Apostolic Churches preach tithing directly out of the law. Their next favorite passage is Duet. 22:5
I'm sure there is more.

[houston]

Your way to late. Most Apostolic Churches preach tithing directly out of the law. Their next favorite passage is Duet. 22:5
I'm sure there is more.

Did you not notice that he is banned?

[Michael The Disciple]

Did you not notice that he is banned?

No I just saw that. Why is he banned? I disagree with him a lot but I never saw him do anything to get banned over. I hope not just because Preterists said it should be so.

[houston]

Good grief!

[TK Burk]

Good grief!

:highfive

[Michael The Disciple]

Your way to late. Most Apostolic Churches preach tithing directly out of the law. Their next favorite passage is Duet. 22:5
I'm sure there is more.

So seeing many (maybe not all) Apostolics are already quite comfortable preaching the law of Moses I guess what they must oppose from the Hebrew roots people is that they want people to use Hebrew names for Jesus.

[jediwill83]

You've killed sean! Now ill never know the truth! Oh woe is meeeeeee!!!!! Why why whyyyyyy?????

[Michael The Disciple]

So I suppose that if Apostolic Pastors need to paralyze the Hebrew Roots teachers for teaching the law they would need to "paralyze" themselves first!

[mfblume]

No I just saw that. Why is he banned? I disagree with him a lot but I never saw him do anything to get banned over. I hope not just because Preterists said it should be so.

There have been so many purposely dishonest Strawmen proposed by the dude after we'd say something, in outright dishonesty, such we never saw from other dispensationalists . It's not about doctrinal differences but honesty versus dishonesty.

[Michael The Disciple]

There have been so many purposely dishonest Strawmen proposed by the dude after we'd say something, in outright dishonesty, such we never saw from other dispensationalists . It's not about doctrinal differences but honesty versus dishonesty.

Oh? I have had many things I have said misrepresented here but I dont remember trying to get anyone who has done it banned. Oh well just wondering.

[mfblume]

Oh? I have had many things I have said misrepresented here but I dont remember trying to get anyone who has done it banned. Oh well just wondering.

I don't know why he was banned, but this is one thing I noticed with him. I was not watching what happened when it led to the banning. But he did not misunderstand our points. He purposely misrepresented me many times. I don't think every time someone misrepresented your or my points, it was done purposely like that was with him.

[houston]

I don't know why he was banned, but this is one thing I noticed with him. I was not watching what happened when it led to the banning. But he did not misunderstand our points. He purposely misrepresented me many times. I don't think every time someone misrepresented your or my points, it was done purposely like that was with him.

He purposely misrepresented everyone. He constantly stated “so and so believes suck and such.” and it was not so. He is a deliberate liar.

[Aquila]

Sean acted like someone who was off their meds. It could get annoying. Sometimes I felt like he was just in the mood to debate for debate's sake. But I don't think he did anything worth being banned over to me. I've seen people do far worse and have absolutely nothing done to them. Maybe he was harassing people through private message or something. Oh well, maybe being off the forum for a while will allow him to sort out his thoughts. Sometimes, erratic behavior can indicate something going on in someone's private life. I think we should take some time and pray for him.

Father, help our friend, Sean. I ask that you give him peace and help him sort through his thoughts and beliefs so that he might feel greater stability in His walk with you. If something in his private life is troubling him, if he's feeling unheard at home, work, or church; if he's troubled as time honored beliefs and traditions fall to the wayside, if what he has been taught has caused him to feel alone as others explore greater truths, if he's feeling frustrated in the calling you have for him, if he has any health problems... I ask that you would reach into His situation as a loving and kind Father and minister peace, healing, and spiritual assurance to him. Put angels around Sean and those he cares about. Let him know that there is a truth that transcends doctrinal opinions and interpretations... the truth of personally knowing you, and help him know that this is all that truly matters. I ask that, should his time away from us be only temporary, when he returns, he returns refreshed, humbled, and walking in your peace. All this I pray in Jesus name. Amen.

[Amanah]

defaming churches or pastors likely causes people to be banned.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean
The HR apostolic group started in a friends house of former pastor of XXXXX.
Most of these former members are attending new start up HR Apostolic churches from the foothills to the Bay Area.
I met one of their pastors in mid summer of 2017 at a feast celebration, then another pastor's wife and kids from the Bay Area in Oct.
What I am seeing is many start up churches teaching this doctrine.
They directly and openly call the status quo churches "heretics" for teaching against these N.T. verses.
They are right about the churches teaching the Law ended for saints, but wrong in their belief of attempting to keep the Law.
They don't claim they keep the Law to be saved, but to please God.

[Steve Epley]

The interesting thing to me about this movement I have not met a single one who speaks Hebrew.

[Michael The Disciple]

The interesting thing to me about this movement I have not met a single one who speaks Hebrew.

How many are in this movement worldwide? Tens of thousands? Hundreds of thousands? So pray tell Steve, how many of them have you met?

[Evang.Benincasa]

How many are in this movement worldwide? Tens of thousands? Hundreds of thousands? So pray tell Steve, how many of them have you met?

I have met a lot, I have spent time with the 12 Tribes Community, met Yoneq, its leader, who doesn't speak Hebrew. Yet, requires everyone to get their name changed from their birth name to a Hebrew name once you convert. One day I asked a group of them if they spoke Hebrew? All at the same time they said "NO."

I dealt with many Messianic Synagogues across the United States, Yahwist groups here in Florida, and in New York. When I was in my teens I knew a girl who was in a Messianic congregation. The "Rabbi" was her dad, and he taught them classes in Hebrew. But, even that group didn't study the language to better know the scripture, they studied it to speak it in heaven?

Yet, Elder Epley is correct, while there are many Hebrew Roots groups the majority know very little Hebrew. Most of what they know come from a Strong's Concordance. The whole J situation and Hey Zeus issue shows a total dishonesty towards language study. Also, we have so many who believe Hebrew to be a holy language. Yet, can only say names of Bible characters and Bible books in Hebrew, but really don't understand the language.

Mike, how much Hebrew can you speak? Does your wife speak Hebrew? Your children?

[Aquila]

I have met a lot, I have spent time with the 12 Tribes Community, met Yoneq, its leader, who doesn't speak Hebrew. Yet, requires everyone to get their name changed from their birth name to a Hebrew name once you convert. One day I asked a group of them if they spoke Hebrew? All at the same time they said "NO."

Hey, you spent some time with the 12 Tribes Community? Are they the same "12 Tribes" someone might have met at the Bonnaroo Music Festival? They are some real chill cats. lol

Ummmm. Asking for a friend. :notme :bolt

[Tithesmeister]

"Yet, requires everyone to get their name changed from their birth name to a Hebrew name once you convert."

Ummm. How do you say Tithesmeister in Hebrew?

Isn't it already in Hebrew?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Hey, you spent some time with the 12 Tribes Community? Are they the same "12 Tribes" someone might have met at the Bonnaroo Music Festival? They are some real chill cats. lol

Ummmm. Asking for a friend. :notme :bolt

Yes, that would be the same 12 Tribes Hippy communists turned Hebrew Rootists. :heeheehee

Yes, they are very chill, and sweet people.

But I also know a lot of Hindus who live communally who are super duper chill, and very sweet people. Yet, I wouldn't want to join either groups. Jewish Kibbutzim have some chill people as well, and sweet people as long as you aren't a Palestinian.

[Evang.Benincasa]

"Yet, requires everyone to get their name changed from their birth name to a Hebrew name once you convert."

Ummm. How do you say Tithesmeister in Hebrew?

Isn't it already in Hebrew?

No, nicknames, but the group would like you to get your name change at conversion. Also you no longer have anything that you own, personally. It is a commune, and therefore everything is shared. They use Acts 4:32-35 as their proof text. My wife and I first met them when I was preaching in New York. I spent time with them in Ithaca, and then I caught up with them at a huge gathering they had in Washington D.C.. They ended up in Arcadia and Fort Meyers Florida. They are moving from their Fort Meyers community and opening a farm north of Fort Meyers. They are sweet people, very sincere, just sincerely wrong. :)

[Aquila]

Yes, that would be the same 12 Tribes Hippy communists turned Hebrew Rootists. :heeheehee

Yes, they are very chill, and sweet people.

But I also know a lot of Hindus who live communally who are super duper chill, and very sweet people. Yet, I wouldn't want to join either groups. Jewish Kibbutzim have some chill people as well, and sweet people as long as you aren't a Palestinian.

Awesome! :lol

I wouldn't join them either. But they can be cool to hang out with, especially at a place like Bonnaroo. :nod Or... so I've heard. :theyareontome

Ah, yes.... good times. :largehalo

https://img.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeed-static/static/2015-11/17/20/enhanced/webdr15/anigif_enhanced-2960-1447808881-9.gif

[Michael The Disciple]

I have met a lot, I have spent time with the 12 Tribes Community, met Yoneq, its leader, who doesn't speak Hebrew. Yet, requires everyone to get their name changed from their birth name to a Hebrew name once you convert. One day I asked a group of them if they spoke Hebrew? All at the same time they said "NO."

I dealt with many Messianic Synagogues across the United States, Yahwist groups here in Florida, and in New York. When I was in my teens I knew a girl who was in a Messianic congregation. The "Rabbi" was her dad, and he taught them classes in Hebrew. But, even that group didn't study the language to better know the scripture, they studied it to speak it in heaven?

Yet, Elder Epley is correct, while there are many Hebrew Roots groups the majority know very little Hebrew. Most of what they know come from a Strong's Concordance. The whole J situation and Hey Zeus issue shows a total dishonesty towards language study. Also, we have so many who believe Hebrew to be a holy language. Yet, can only say names of Bible characters and Bible books in Hebrew, but really don't understand the language.

Mike, how much Hebrew can you speak? Does your wife speak Hebrew? Your children?

First off define what you mean when you say "Hebrew Roots Movement". It seems to be like when one says "Charismatic Movement" or "Apostolic Movement". There may be hundreds of thousands or millions of people within these movements. So would you say that of all those people you have met 5 per cent of them? 1 per cent of them?Even that would be a tremendous number of people for you to have met and understand their beliefs.

There may be minor or major differences among them. I have met a fair number of people who either put a high value on knowing the original Hebrew name or at least like to use it who do not teach one must obey Moses. I myself fit somewhere in that area.

Some teach using anything but the version they use will be lost and demand law keeping.

Now unbelievably among "Apostolics" there are thoses who teach it is a sin for a man to wear a beard or for a woman to trim her hair! I know, shocking but true. And yet...they take the name "Apostolic" for themselves as if the Apostles taught such trite.

Even more shocking among Apostolics there are those who teach that Jesus Christ came back for his Church 20 centuries ago! So among Apostolics there can be wide variance of doctrine as there can be among those who like "Hebrew Roots".

Now as far as people among them not speaking Hebrew Im sure the majority dont. But I have seen various video's of ones that do and I'm sure would be glad to answer your challenges.

I speak nor read Hebrew or Greek. Come to think of it of all the millions of American Christians who believe the Bible was originally written in Greek what per cent of THEM speak Greek?

I have been around many Bible believers in the last 43 years among various movements and as I think about it I can remember ONE MAN who was taking Greek in school. Not that he was fluent in it but he was learning.

So what does that prove? Since out of possibly thousands of believers I have talked to personally I dont know one who could say they were fluent in Greek? Does it prove Greek is not the original language or that anyone would be in error for being interested in it?

So I dont consider myself a Hebrew Roots believer. I have interest in the Hebrew roots because ALMOST the entire Old Testament was given in Hebrew! So if one said they had NO INTEREST in Hebrew Roots they are saying they have no interest in the greater part of the Bible.

There are no doubt many false believers among Hebrew Roots people. Agreed. Yet I can say from experience there are many false "Apostolic" believers.

[Michael The Disciple]

The interesting thing to me about this movement I have not met a single one who speaks Hebrew.

Do you speak Greek? Must we?

[Tithesmeister]

I'm with Michael the Disciple. I don't know Greek or Hebrew. I have a rough time with English some days. I don't think it affects my salvation.

[Evang.Benincasa]

First off define what you mean when you say "Hebrew Roots Movement". It seems to be like when one says "Charismatic Movement" or "Apostolic Movement". There may be hundreds of thousands or millions of people within these movements. So would you say that of all those people you have met 5 per cent of them? 1 per cent of them?Even that would be a tremendous number of people for you to have met and understand their beliefs.

There may be minor or major differences among them. I have met a fair number of people who either put a high value on knowing the original Hebrew name or at least like to use it who do not teach one must obey Moses. I myself fit somewhere in that area.

Some teach using anything but the version they use will be lost and demand law keeping.

Now unbelievably among "Apostolics" there are thoses who teach it is a sin for a man to wear a beard or for a woman to trim her hair! I know, shocking but true. And yet...they take the name "Apostolic" for themselves as if the Apostles taught such trite.

Even more shocking among Apostolics there are those who teach that Jesus Christ came back for his Church 20 centuries ago! So among Apostolics there can be wide variance of doctrine as there can be among those who like "Hebrew Roots".

Now as far as people among them not speaking Hebrew Im sure the majority dont. But I have seen various video's of ones that do and I'm sure would be glad to answer your challenges.

I speak nor read Hebrew or Greek. Come to think of it of all the millions of American Christians who believe the Bible was originally written in Greek what per cent of THEM speak Greek?

I have been around many Bible believers in the last 43 years among various movements and as I think about it I can remember ONE MAN who was taking Greek in school. Not that he was fluent in it but he was learning.

So what does that prove? Since out of possibly thousands of believers I have talked to personally I dont know one who could say they were fluent in Greek? Does it prove Greek is not the original language or that anyone would be in error for being interested in it?

So I dont consider myself a Hebrew Roots believer. I have interest in the Hebrew roots because ALMOST the entire Old Testament was given in Hebrew! So if one said they had NO INTEREST in Hebrew Roots they are saying they have no interest in the greater part of the Bible.

There are no doubt many false believers among Hebrew Roots people. Agreed. Yet I can say from experience there are many false "Apostolic" believers.

Brother Michael, no one needs to know any language other than the one they speak. But, let me ask you this, Apostolic Ultra Conservative, have you been to everyone of their churches?

[houston]

Father, help our friend, Sean. I ask that you give him peace and help him sort through his thoughts and beliefs so that he might feel greater stability in His walk with you. If something in his private life is troubling him, if he's feeling unheard at home, work, or church; if he's troubled as time honored beliefs and traditions fall to the wayside, if what he has been taught has caused him to feel alone as others explore greater truths, if he's feeling frustrated in the calling you have for him, if he has any health problems... I ask that you would reach into His situation as a loving and kind Father and minister peace, healing, and spiritual assurance to him. Put angels around Sean and those he cares about. Let him know that there is a truth that transcends doctrinal opinions and interpretations... the truth of personally knowing you, and help him know that this is all that truly matters. I ask that, should his time away from us be only temporary, when he returns, he returns refreshed, humbled, and walking in your peace. All this I pray in Jesus name. Amen.

You’re doing this again

[Michael The Disciple]

Brother Michael, no one needs to know any language other than the one they speak. But, let me ask you this, Apostolic Ultra Conservative, have you been to everyone of their churches?

So thats all you have to say about what I said? So I suppose you did get my point that not all "Hebrew Roots" people are the same?

So your question to me works the same as my question to you. No I have not been to the hundreds of Ultra Con Churches so I cant say ALL when I am making a point about them. You will note many times I say ALMOST all of a certain group does this or that.

What I CAN do is to simply ask a certain person of their belief. If one asks me of my belief I will tell them. I may not get bogged down in explaining every single detail UNLESS I think the person is actually learning something.

I was appointed as an Elder in an Apostolic Ultra Con Church back in 1981 in a body familiar to Steve Eply in Springfield Ohio. So there is a stream of Ultra Con belief that I understand.

[Evang.Benincasa]

So thats all you have to say about what I said? So I suppose you did get my point that not all "Hebrew Roots" people are the same?

So your question to me works the same as my question to you. No I have not been to the hundreds of Ultra Con Churches so I cant say ALL when I am making a point about them. You will note many times I say ALMOST all of a certain group does this or that.

What I CAN do is to simply ask a certain person of their belief. If one asks me of my belief I will tell them. I may not get bogged down in explaining every single detail UNLESS I think the person is actually learning something.

I was appointed as an Elder in an Apostolic Ultra Con Church back in 1981 in a body familiar to Steve Eply in Springfield Ohio. So there is a stream of Ultra Con belief that I understand.

Therefore you understand what I'm saying, the Hebrew Roots is a movement. Just like the Apostolics or Charismatics, even though they can go from mild to wild there are still distinctive markings which make them Hebrew Roots.

[Steve Epley]

How many are in this movement worldwide? Tens of thousands? Hundreds of thousands? So pray tell Steve, how many of them have you met?

Too many.

[Steve Epley]

Do you speak Greek? Must we?

Nope. I don’t act like I am a Greek scholar.

[Aquila]

You’re doing this again

Hey, man. I believe in prayer. If we're not a people of prayer, we might as well close shop and go to the movies or something.

Now, I don't believe in making a spectacle of prayer in public. But, we're all brethren here. If we can't pray here, something isn't right. At least, that's my opinion.

[Evang.Benincasa]

At 30:16 is where he starts really going down hill.

Supposedly a Pentecostal Pastor who converts to Rabbinical Judaism.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dn4sy72MjEE&ab_channel=KiruvMedia

[Michael The Disciple]

At 30:16 is where he starts really going down hill.

Supposedly a Pentecostal Pastor who converts to Rabbinical Judaism.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dn4sy72MjEE&ab_channel=KiruvMedia

Skimmed through. I never saw him saying he was Pentecostal. I heard him say "Evangelical". Nonetheless in his words "a boring story". I would add "pathetic".

He really had no Christian faith to give up. Sadly there are MILLIONS of tares around the world in the same boat. No real manifest revelation of Christ. They may read the Bible and or attend Church but have no sense of his presence.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Skimmed through. I never saw him saying he was Pentecostal.

Brother Michael, that's called you didn't watch the video, and didn't hear what he was saying.


I heard him say "Evangelical". Nonetheless in his words "a boring story". I would add "pathetic".

Really? I listened to the video, and while he is as dry as a mummy's pocket, I listened. Therefore, I can have an opinion which surpasses your skimmed flip through.


He really had no Christian faith to give up.

You got all that from a skim through?



Sadly there are MILLIONS of tares around the world in the same boat. No real manifest revelation of Christ. They may read the Bible and or attend Church but have no sense of his presence.

I agree, but these people who go into the Messianic movement, Hebrew roots. First believe that what they are doing is Judaism that they see in the black hat. It isn't. If you would of listened to the video, you would of heard where he asked a Rabbi about he and the Rabbi believed the same thing. The Rabbi was honest, and told the guy the truth. Rabbinical Talmudic Judaism and Christianity have ZERO in common.

[Aquila]

Therefore you understand what I'm saying, the Hebrew Roots is a movement. Just like the Apostolics or Charismatics, even though they can go from mild to wild there are still distinctive markings which make them Hebrew Roots.

I know that the 12 Tribes were really good people. I did pick up on their Jewish style, but it didn't seem too excessive to me at the time. They didn't seem very conservative though. Or maybe it was just me and my unfamiliarity with them at the time.

Do the Hebrew Roots people believe that the 10 lost tribes of Israel became a part of the various European and North African nations, or is a different group and/or doctrine?

[Evang.Benincasa]

I know that the 12 Tribes were really good people. I did pick up on their Jewish style, but it didn't seem too excessive to me at the time. They didn't seem very conservative though. Or maybe it was just me and my unfamiliarity with them at the time.

They look like hippies without the tie dye.

http://www.ic.org/wp-content/uploads/formidable/Shem-cHam-and-Yapheth3.jpg


Do the Hebrew Roots people believe that the 10 lost tribes of Israel became a part of the various European and North African nations, or is a different group and/or doctrine?

What you are saying sounds like British Israel, and its close cousin Black Israelism.

[Michael The Disciple]

Brother Michael, that's called you didn't watch the video, and didn't hear what he was saying.

I really dont know why I bothered. I should have known it would just be for strife sake. But just to test if my "skimming" skills may be slipping at what moment is he claiming to be a Pentecostal Pastor?

[Michael The Disciple]

I agree, but these people who go into the Messianic movement, Hebrew roots. First believe that what they are doing is Judaism that they see in the black hat. It isn't. If you would of listened to the video, you would of heard where he asked a Rabbi about he and the Rabbi believed the same thing. The Rabbi was honest, and told the guy the truth. Rabbinical Talmudic Judaism and Christianity have ZERO in common.

Huh? And where in my 10,000 posts on this forum have I ever said or insinuated that Talmudic Judaism is the same thing as Christianity?

Is this some kind of set up?

[Evang.Benincasa]

I really dont know why I bothered. I should have known it would just be for strife sake. But just to test if my "skimming" skills may be slipping at what moment is he claiming to be a Pentecostal Pastor?

Are you saying I'm trying to pick a fight with you? No, I'm just pointing out that you honestly can't have an opinion if you never listened to what the guy even said. Period. Skimming? Whatever.



Huh? And where in my 10,000 posts on this forum have I ever said or insinuated that Talmudic Judaism is the same thing as Christianity?

Brother Michael, are you now skimming my few lines of my post? Who is accusing you? Where do I accuse you? Or am I relaying what was said in the conversation between the guy and the Rabbi? Bro, easy does it. :heeheehee

Is this some kind of set up?

I have a motto, if you throw a rock into a pack of dogs the one who yelps is the one who got hit. Bro, I'm sitting here thinking "where's all this coming from?" Are you looking for a fight? I'm not, I didn't notice how this thread even became about you? Unless you want it to be about you. I'm not trying to bait you, or set you up? Were you trying to set Elder Epley up with your questions? So, let's do a rewind, be blessed in the mighty name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and let's move on.

:)

[Aquila]

They look like hippies without the tie dye.

http://www.ic.org/wp-content/uploads/formidable/Shem-cHam-and-Yapheth3.jpg

They look like my kind of people! LOL

What you are saying sounds like British Israel, and its close cousin Black Israelism.

Ah, so it's different. I wasn't sure if Hebrew Roots and the British Israel thing were related in some way or not. I new someone who firmly believed that he was an "Israelite" from the tribe of Simeon, who was claimed to have been absorbed by the British, Welsh, peoples. He got into a little Hebrew, but wasn't a fundamentalist over it. He said that my tendency to take the Sabbath as a day of rest and devotion (even when attending a church that meets on Sunday) was based on me also having "Israelite" heritage. Honestly, I don't know much about that stuff. Outside of a DNA test, how cold they really know? Apparently some people are just really into it.

[Evang.Benincasa]

They look like my kind of people! LOL

Ah, so it's different. I wasn't sure if Hebrew Roots and the British Israel thing were related in some way or not. I new someone who firmly believed that he was an "Israelite" from the tribe of Simeon, who was claimed to have been absorbed by the British, Welsh, peoples. He got into a little Hebrew, but wasn't a fundamentalist over it. He said that my tendency to take the Sabbath as a day of rest and devotion (even when attending a church that meets on Sunday) was based on me also having "Israelite" heritage. Honestly, I don't know much about that stuff. Outside of a DNA test, how cold they really know? Apparently some people are just really into it.

A DNA test would never show what tribe you were associated. Also a DNA test could never prove the qualification of a High Priest or a Levite. In Ezra 2:59-62 explains how the returning Judeans were able to prove they were part of Israel. Obviously they would of had excellent gene pool to take DNA from this people Ezra 2:59, Nehemiah 7:61. They were only in captivity for 70 years, opposed to 2,000 years and counting for people who make claims today. In Ezra 2:61-62 the children of Brazillia would of past a DNA test with flying colors, yet, Israeli Judean genealogy has little to do with DNA. It has to do with marriages, divorces, behaviors, religious observance, who was married to who and why? Who was put away from who, and why? Jesus telling the Hellenized Judean Nicodemo about being born again, was the promise of newness of life, where the only lineage and genealogy is written in heaven.

[houston]

Hey, man. I believe in prayer. If we're not a people of prayer, we might as well close shop and go to the movies or something.

Now, I don't believe in making a spectacle of prayer in public. But, we're all brethren here. If we can't pray here, something isn't right. At least, that's my opinion.

Is there a reason you type a prayer and post if for everyone to read rather than pray privately?

I mean, even in the prayer request section people mention that they are praying. They don’t go about typing prayers.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Is there a reason you type a prayer and post if for everyone to read rather than pray privately?

I mean, even in the prayer request section people mention that they are praying. They don’t go about typing prayers.

Chris, Houston has a valid point.

It is a bit displyish and runs the lines of Matthew 6:5–8.

Praying for any of one of us will not need for you to post the prayer to us.

[Aquila]

Is there a reason you type a prayer and post if for everyone to read rather than pray privately?

I mean, even in the prayer request section people mention that they are praying. They don’t go about typing prayers.

Chris, Houston has a valid point.

It is a bit displyish and runs the lines of Matthew 6:5–8.

Praying for any of one of us will not need for you to post the prayer to us.

I apologize if my prayer bothered anyone. I only posted it openly so that others can pray in agreement if they felt the desire to. I meant no harm.

[Aquila]

Back when I attended an institutional church people would commonly say, "I'll be praying for you.", or they'd commit to praying for someone when prayer was requested. During a series of studies regarding living intentionally, most confessed that all too often they'd say they'd pray for someone and forget or get side tracked and never end up praying for the person. It's not that they were bad people, it's just that life can get very busy and being human, people forget. I felt especially convicted because I was guilty of forgetting. I made a commitment that whenever I felt the need to pray for someone, or if someone asked for prayer, I'd find a way to pray for them on the spot by saying, "Would you mind if we prayed right now?" Most had no problem with it, in fact, they seemed really appreciative. If the situation were such that prayer would be a disruption or if they preferred privacy, I'd ask if we could take some time to step away to a more private venue for a few moments. As a result, it kinda became a habit for me to pray immediately after feeling the desire, or being asked, to pray. Because of this, I guess I didn't realize that it might be taken wrong.

Please accept my apologies if my prayer upset anyone.

[Evang.Benincasa]

I apologize if my prayer bothered anyone. I only posted it openly so that others can pray in agreement if they felt the desire to. I meant no harm.

No problem with any of us. We explained our thoughts and no offence was taken.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Back when I attended an institutional church people would commonly say, "I'll be praying for you.", or they'd commit to praying for someone when prayer was requested. During a series of studies regarding living intentionally, most confessed that all too often they'd say they'd pray for someone and forget or get side tracked and never end up praying for the person. It's not that they were bad people, it's just that life can get very busy and being human, people forget. I felt especially convicted because I was guilty of forgetting. I made a commitment that whenever I felt the need to pray for someone, or if someone asked for prayer, I'd find a way to pray for them on the spot by saying, "Would you mind if we prayed right now?" Most had no problem with it, in fact, they seemed really appreciative. If the situation were such that prayer would be a disruption or if they preferred privacy, I'd ask if we could take some time to step away to a more private venue for a few moments. As a result, it kinda became a habit for me to pray immediately after feeling the desire, or being asked, to pray. Because of this, I guess I didn't realize that it might be taken wrong.

Please accept my apologies if my prayer upset anyone.

When people ask me to pray for X Y or Z, I'll ask them to pray right then and there. Just that typing out a prayer for something or someone looks (to me) as a bit odd.

[Evang.Benincasa]

OK, here is this "pastor's" Rabbi information. Seems that he attended Texas Bible College (http://www.tbcnow.com/) from 1983 – 1986 (https://www.linkedin.com/in/rodbryant).

Here is an article about Rod Bryant

Like Moshe, Bryant said, Noahides struggle to stand up for their beliefs, despite being surrounded by Christian families and friends. Unlike those around them, Noahides do not identify as Christian. Their feelings on Christianity and Jesus range from respect of the “all religions have something to offer” variety to palpable disdain. They’ve given up what they consider idol worship to follow Jewish theology.

Bryant didn’t always teach Torah; he was a Pentecostal chaplain in the Army during the first Gulf War. He started a small study group in his house that got so large that it moved to a church. Around that time, Bryant began finding inconsistencies in Christian scripture, so he started digging into historical records.

“It was like archeology,” Bryant recalled.

The larger his group grew, the more uncomfortable he felt: He was responsible for the spiritual lives of all these people, and here he was teaching things he didn’t believe. When people asked him to lecture on passages about Jesus, he started making excuses.

“He was like, ‘It’s too long,’ ” remembered one former Christian group member. “I was like, ‘I’ll bring food.’ ”

He started teaching Torah from a Jewish perspective to a small group. Arilio Navarro, who had been having similar doubts about Christianity, came in to learn at one point. Navarro pulled Bryant aside and told him quietly, “I don’t think Jesus is God.” He was pretty sure he’d be thrown out.

To his surprise, Bryant replied, “Oh, you don’t? Me neither.”

It eventually became obvious that Bryant couldn’t be part of the church anymore, and he left, or was kicked out, depending on whom you ask. Probably a bit of both. Either way, he found himself without a job.

“OK, Hashem, funny sense of humor,” he remembered thinking. “Now I really have to trust you.”

He started communicating with rabbis who had been inspired by Rabbi Schneerson’s teachings about Noahides, and he learned about Righteous Gentiles and the seven laws of Noah. Eventually, in 2010, he founded Netiv, which has been growing ever since.

***

Like Bryant, others who have discovered Noahidism, while not identifying as Jews, seem to love Judaism: the emphasis on asking questions rather than just taking a priest’s word for things, the traditions, the intellectual rigor, the in-depth instructions it provides for maintaining family relations. But above all, they say Judaism gives them a newfound sense of peace.

http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-life-and-religion/196588/the-gentiles-who-act-like-jews

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dn4sy72MjEE&ab_channel=KiruvMedia

[Aquila]

No problem with any of us. We explained our thoughts and no offence was taken.

Thanks guys, I'll try to be more sensitive to this kind of thing in the future. :)

:friend

[Michael The Disciple]

Brother Michael, are you now skimming my few lines of my post? Who is accusing you? Where do I accuse you? Or am I relaying what was said in the conversation between the guy and the Rabbi? Bro, easy does it.

OK I got off track.

[Evang.Benincasa]

OK I got off track.

Amen, the Lord bless you. Now, let us proceed forward in Jesus name :thumbsup

[FlamingZword]

Amen, the Lord bless you. Now, let us proceed forward in Jesus name :thumbsup

Right on let us proceed forward in Yeshua name :thumbsup

[Evang.Benincasa]

Right on let us proceed forward in Yeshua name :thumbsup

Who?

[jediwill83]

"Yet, requires everyone to get their name changed from their birth name to a Hebrew name once you convert."

Ummm. How do you say Tithesmeister in Hebrew?

Isn't it already in Hebrew?


Ben Shekelstein

[jediwill83]

Awesome! :lol

I wouldn't join them either. But they can be cool to hang out with, especially at a place like Bonnaroo. :nod Or... so I've heard. :theyareontome

Ah, yes.... good times. :largehalo
https://img.buzzfeed.com/buzzfeed-static/static/2015-11/17/20/enhanced/webdr15/anigif_enhanced-2960-1447808881-9.gif
Psst hey...dont bogart my myrrh n pass to the left.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Psst hey...dont bogart my myrrh n pass to the left.

That my dear brother was hysterical :lol

[Evang.Benincasa]

Ben Shekelstein

:thumbsup

[Originalist]

The guy on the video never fully grasped the doctrine if justification by faith alone. The book of Galatians is for him. He will not be found in Christ, but will be found having his OWN righteousness, which is of the law. Sometimes I think we Apostolics are very weak in tis area.

[Michael The Disciple]

The guy on the video never fully grasped the doctrine if justification by faith alone. The book of Galatians is for him. He was not be found in Christ, but will be found having his OWN righteousness, which is of the law. Sometimes I think we Apostolics are very weak in tis area.

What I hear from the Evangelical power hitters seems to be a poison given to their followers. I would like to hear your view or any Apostolic's view on the matter of justification by faith alone. I know Evangelicals often call it "salvation by Christ alone".

[Evang.Benincasa]

We are saved by grace but we are judged by works. The tree is always known by its fruit, and as a man thinks in his heart so is he. Repentance, true heart change, baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, and in filled with the Holy Ghost with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues. Going forward walking in newness of life. Saying with are justified by faith, and having no works following, means that the faith isn't faith. Therefore the justification isn't justifying you.

[Originalist]

We are saved by grace but we are judged by works. The tree is always known by its fruit, and as a man thinks in his heart so is he. Repentance, true heart change, baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, and in filled with the Holy Ghost with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues. Going forward walking in newness of life. Saying with are justified by faith, and having no works following, means that the faith isn't faith. Therefore the justification isn't justifying you.

I do not think the latter is in dispute. But we must keep in mind that we cannot glory in our fruit. We must glory in the cross. In the end, he is still our only righteousness, and he alone.

[Evang.Benincasa]

I do not think the latter is in dispute. But we must keep in mind that we cannot glory in our fruit. We must glory in the cross. In the end, he is still our only righteousness, and he alone.

I don’t think anyone has a problem with the above. That is the truth.

There is a typo in my post “with” should be “we.”

[Aquila]

It seems that the Hebrew roots movement would conform the believer into the image of ancient Israel, not the image of the glorified Christ Jesus.

[mfblume]

It seems that the Hebrew roots movement would conform the believer into the image of ancient Israel, not the image of the glorified Christ Jesus.

Amen

[FlamingZword]

It seems that the Hebrew roots movement would conform the believer into the image of ancient Israel, not the image of the glorified Christ Jesus.

The glorified Christ Jesus was still a law abiding Jewish man, from the beginning of his life to the his last appearance. :-)

[mfblume]

Jesus was not the last Moses but the last Adam.

[Esaias]

The Hebrew Roots Movement is the leaven of the Pharisees, baking gentiles into challah for Purim.

[Evang.Benincasa]

The Hebrew Roots Movement is the leaven of the Pharisees, baking gentiles into challah for Purim.

https://m.popkey.co/a6ad68/pZ5gK.gif

[Esaias]

lol

People think it's a doctrine thing. It isn't, really. People don't really care about doctrine these days. But people do care about identity. Generations of no identity combined with memories of Scofield's dreams result in easy pickins for DVD sellers yodeling to the blood moon tetrads, as shiftless folks look for some place to camp out and call their own.

If it was about doctrine, Rev 2:9 and 3:9 would be enough to paralyze any Jezebel daughter of Lillith bringing in their judeo Baal worship.

But, its not about doctrine. Its about feelz and a sense of belonging. Plus, a general inability to critically think about things.

[Evang.Benincasa]

lol

People think it's a doctrine thing. It isn't, really. People don't really care about doctrine these days. But people do care about identity. Generations of no identity combined with memories of Scofield's dreams result in easy pickins for DVD sellers yodeling to the blood moon tetrads, as shiftless folks look for some place to camp out and call their own.

If it was about doctrine, Rev 2:9 and 3:9 would be enough to paralyze any Jezebel daughter of Lillith bringing in their judeo Baal worship.

But, its not about doctrine. Its about feelz and a sense of belonging. Plus, a general inability to critically think about things.

:thumbsup :highfive

[Aquila]

The glorified Christ Jesus was still a law abiding Jewish man, from the beginning of his life to the his last appearance. :-)

From eternity past, Christ was God. God is not Jewish, God is eternal Spirit. Only in his humanity was Christ "Jewish". And glorified, Christ is now a quickening Spirit, filling all things.

Those who are conformed into the image of ancient Israel are conformed into the image of an ancient earthly nation, by a law not even they truly kept, a nation that was ultimately destroyed by the wrath of God.

[Evang.Benincasa]

From eternity past, Christ was God. God is not Jewish, God is eternal Spirit. Only in his humanity was Christ "Jewish". And glorified, Christ is now a quickening Spirit, filling all things.

Those who are conformed into the image of ancient Israel are conformed into the image of an ancient earthly nation, by a law not even they truly kept, a nation that was ultimately destroyed by the wrath of God.

https://media.giphy.com/media/pclq2aLP7nfvG/giphy.gif

[JoeBandy]

We are saved by grace but we are judged by works. The tree is always known by its fruit, and as a man thinks in his heart so is he. Repentance, true heart change, baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, and in filled with the Holy Ghost with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues. Going forward walking in newness of life. Saying with are justified by faith, and having no works following, means that the faith isn't faith. Therefore the justification isn't justifying you.

Although accurate mostly, .................... well nevermind, not sure I wanna do this today

[Evang.Benincasa]

Although accurate mostly, .................... well nevermind, not sure I wanna do this today

OK, how about a video of a Ryobi drill catching fire while we were mixing cement with it?

[JoeBandy]

OK, how about a video of a Ryobi drill catching fire while we were mixing cement with it?

Must be going around. There was a fire this morning at the papermill I am working at.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Must be going around. There was a fire this morning at the papermill I am working at.

Is the papermill built by TTi (http://www.ttigroup.com/en/home)? :lol

[Michael The Disciple]

If the danger of the Hebrew Roots movement is they might bring people back to Moses where does that leave Apostolics? Do they not teach if one does not pay tithes they are under a curse? Do they not teach if a woman does not wear a dress according to Duet. 22:5 she is going to Hell?

Are not many if not most Apostolics already there?

[Amanah]

https://media.giphy.com/media/pclq2aLP7nfvG/giphy.gif

this gif is incredibly adorable :gaga

[Evang.Benincasa]

If the danger of the Hebrew Roots movement is they might bring people back to Moses where does that leave Apostolics? Do they not teach if one does not pay tithes they are under a curse? Do they not teach if a woman does not wear a dress according to Duet. 22:5 she is going to Hell?

Are not many if not most Apostolics already there?

Then that would cover a plethora of denominations.
Yet, Hebrew roots groups teach against the true name of the Christ.
With many other Rabbinical traditions which are baptized into Christianity.
Apostolic churches may teach from the OT/Hebrew Bible but aren’t Hebrew roots in the actual sense of the Rabbinical adopting movement.

The modern Rabbinical looks at Christians as idolaters. Blasphemers, and must leave Christianity in order to be “saved?”

[Michael The Disciple]

Then that would cover a plethora of denominations.
Yet, Hebrew roots groups teach against the true name of the Christ.
With many other Rabbinical traditions which are baptized into Christianity.
Apostolic churches may teach from the OT/Hebrew Bible but aren’t Hebrew roots in the actual sense of the Rabbinical adopting movement.

The modern Rabbinical looks at Christians as idolaters. Blasphemers, and must leave Christianity in order to be “saved?”

So the main reason many Apostolics oppose this movement in NOT they they teach going back under Moses but because they are attempting to use a Hebrew name for Jesus?

So Apostolics who teach the law of Moses are ok because they dont teach rabbinic traditions?

[Evang.Benincasa]

So the main reason many Apostolics oppose this movement in NOT they they teach going back under Moses but because they are attempting to use a Hebrew name for Jesus?

So Apostolics who teach the law of Moses are ok because they dont teach rabbinic traditions?

Brother Michael, the main reason ANYONE comes against Hebrew Roots is because it takes a Christian into RABBINICAL TALMUDIC JUDAISM.

Christians today wouldn’t know the Law of Moses if it hit them in the face.

[Michael The Disciple]

Brother Michael, the main reason ANYONE comes against Hebrew Roots is because it takes a Christian into RABBINICAL TALMUDIC JUDAISM.

Christians today wouldn’t know the Law of Moses if it hit them in the face.

So if one is just seeking to find the original Hebrew name of the Lord would they be counted as "Hebrew Roots?

Or if one were just spending more time studying the Old Testament to learn more about the background of the New Covenant Faith would he be counted as "Hebrew Roots"?

There SEEMS to be millions of people seeking these 2 things that are NOT wanting to learn about Judaism.

Consider this in the light of what you have written. Should we be concerned about souls being led into a supposed Apostolic Movement where they will be told beards are a sin for men? That it is a sin for a woman to trim her hair? Where teachers use the law of Moses to teach one is cursed if they dont pay tithes or that a woman is going to Hell if they wear pants BASED ON THE LAW?

Is the Hebrew Roots movement more dangerous than this?

[Evang.Benincasa]

So if one is just seeking to find the original Hebrew name of the Lord would they be counted as "Hebrew Roots?

The original Hebrew name? How about the original Moabite name? Ruth was a Moabite, maybe the name was really of Moabite origins? Or the original Egyptian name, Joseph and Mary did go into Egypt, maybe the name is of Egyptian origins? But, anyone ever brought that up they would be laughed at. But since we have been so Judaized we knee jerk react and say "well, His name had to be Hebrew." Well, show me the manuscripts which are older than the Greek which are in Hebrew, or Aramaic. If not, the only name you have is Jesus. But wait? You and I grew up with one name, Jesus. So, isn't it odd that we feel the need to go Hebrewing and call Him a name which He may of not been called? We do have evidence that dates back to the early second century that His name was Iesous, and that name outlived any other?

But, to directly answer your question, no it doesn't make anyone Hebrew roots if they call Jesus Yeshua, Yahshua, Yehoshua, Yahvahashua, Yesha, and the many other word jumbles they constantly come up with.


Or if one were just spending more time studying the Old Testament to learn more about the background of the New Covenant Faith would he be counted as "Hebrew Roots"?

Again, no, because we all do that, but oddly enough we all don't end up believing that modern Rabbinical Jews are the model for the OT and NT Judaic practice of worship. Yeshuites end up going way off to places where the only thing they're missing is to renounce Christianity.


There SEEMS to be millions of people seeking these 2 things that are NOT wanting to learn about Judaism.

Depends on what lens you are looking through and what agenda you are flowing with. Most Hebrew Rootists attack the name of Jesus, attack Christianity itself. While you see millions of people just wanting to call Jesus, yeshua. The next question is, what other Hebrew words are required? They always start out with going Yeshua on us, and then Shaloming us as a greeting. Shalom instead of praise the Lord, or even hello. Shalom instead of good bye. It goes in stages, first the yeshua, then the shalom, then the other trappings. Then you get met with the Hebrew is the heavenly language routine, which then evolves into, that we really don't have the original New Testament. Then the story goes that the first century Judeans would of never used a Greek manuscript, they themselves were Hebrew Onlyists. From this point the water gets murky, and the room starts spinning. Next thing you know you are wearing a kippah, and calling your church building a Synagogue. Which ironically isn't even a Hebrew word but of Gentile origin.

If you are Hebrew, and was raised speaking Hebrew then I guess you call Him Yeshua or Yehoshua. But someone who has been raised calling Him Jesus to go and start calling Him in another language serves no logical purpose.

[Esaias]

The original Hebrew name? How about the original Moabite name? Ruth was a Moabite, maybe the name was really of Moabite origins? Or the original Egyptian name, Joseph and Mary did go into Egypt, maybe the name is of Egyptian origins? But, anyone ever brought that up they would be laughed at. But since we have been so Judaized we knee jerk react and say "well, His name had to be Hebrew." Well, show me the manuscripts which are older than the Greek which are in Hebrew, or Aramaic. If not, the only name you have is Jesus. But wait? You and I grew up with one name, Jesus. So, isn't it odd that we feel the need to go Hebrewing and call Him a name which He may of not been called? We do have evidence that dates back to the early second century that His name was Iesous, and that name outlived any other?

But, to directly answer your question, no it doesn't make anyone Hebrew roots if they call Jesus Yeshua, Yahshua, Yehoshua, Yahvahashua, Yesha, and the many other word jumbles they constantly come up with.



Again, no, because we all do that, but oddly enough we all don't end up believing that modern Rabbinical Jews are the model for the OT and NT Judaic practice of worship. Yeshuites end up going way off to places where the only thing they're missing is to renounce Christianity.



Depends on what lens you are looking through and what agenda you are flowing with. Most Hebrew Rootists attack the name of Jesus, attack Christianity itself. While you see millions of people just wanting to call Jesus, yeshua. The next question is, what other Hebrew words are required? They always start out with going Yeshua on us, and then Shaloming us as a greeting. Shalom instead of praise the Lord, or even hello. Shalom instead of good bye. It goes in stages, first the yeshua, then the shalom, then the other trappings. Then you get met with the Hebrew is the heavenly language routine, which then evolves into, that we really don't have the original New Testament. Then the story goes that the first century Judeans would of never used a Greek manuscript, they themselves were Hebrew Onlyists. From this point the water gets murky, and the room starts spinning. Next thing you know you are wearing a kippah, and calling your church building a Synagogue. Which ironically isn't even a Hebrew word but of Gentile origin.

If you are Hebrew, and was raised speaking Hebrew then I guess you call Him Yeshua or Yehoshua. But someone who has been raised calling Him Jesus to go and start calling Him in another language serves no logical purpose.

:yourock

[Michael The Disciple]

If you are Hebrew, and was raised speaking Hebrew then I guess you call Him Yeshua or Yehoshua. But someone who has been raised calling Him Jesus to go and start calling Him in another language serves no logical purpose.

So according to this logic that we all just use the name in our language then what if a Messianic Jew who was raised calling the Lord Yeshua wanted to ALSO call him Jesus? Would he not then be in error or sin? See where this goes?

My thinking would be that yes whatever groups blaspheme the name of Jesus and say you must keep the law are heretics.

But AGAIN where does that leave Apostolics who use the law to preach various highly important (to them) commandments? Would they not be as guilty as anyone else who teach the law of Moses must be kept by Christians?

[Michael The Disciple]

It goes in stages, first the yeshua, then the shalom, then the other trappings.

Sounds a lot like among Apostolics. Get baptized in Jesus name. Filled with the Spirit. Very good. But THEN the rest begins to be revealed.

If you have a beard it either a sin or at least disgusting enough where you would not be able to stand in leadership or on the holy pulpit.

If you dont pay tithes as in the law you are cursed.

More revelations.....

Based on Duet 22:5 (law of Moses) if a woman wears anything but dresses she is sinning.

Based on 1 Cor 11 if a woman even TRIMS her hair she has sinned.

And transgressing any of these things could cause the REBELLIOUS BELIEVER....according to them to burn in Hell not for thousands: Not for millions: Not for billions of years: Not for TRILLIONS of years. No this is just the beginning of their torments.

ALL ACCORDING TO...NOT GOD....BUT MEN!

This sounds like a dangerous cult does it not? Should we also condemn them ALONG WITH these "Hebrew Roots" people?

Strange how most Apostolics (at least that I have talked to) dont believe in sinless perfection, EXCEPT when it comes to their own traditions!

When it comes to THEIR doctrines they expect perfection! But when it comes to the Lords commandments and doctrines they are very close to Evangelicals "we all sin everyday" doctrine.

[Michael The Disciple]

Yeshuites end up going way off to places where the only thing they're missing is to renounce Christianity.

So on the basis of the very, very, few (compared to the great number of people who use Yeshua) you would say they are all just one step away from renouncing Christianity?

You would not make any difference between many who call Jesus "Yeshua" and those who embrace the false aspects of this movement? You see them all the same?

[Michael The Disciple]

Dom

But since we have been so Judaized we knee jerk react and say "well, His name had to be Hebrew."

I'm flabbergasted. Yea to actually think Jesus who was a Jew would be given a Hebrew name!

YIKES!

Yea who would ever reason something such as that!

[Evang.Benincasa]

So according to this logic that we all just use the name in our language then what if a Messianic Jew who was raised calling the Lord Yeshua wanted to ALSO call him Jesus? Would he not then be in error or sin? See where this goes?

My thinking would be that yes whatever groups blaspheme the name of Jesus and say you must keep the law are heretics.

But AGAIN where does that leave Apostolics who use the law to preach various highly important (to them) commandments? Would they not be as guilty as anyone else who teach the law of Moses must be kept by Christians?

Brother Michael, Messianic Jew? What is a Messianic Jew? A Jew who leaves one synagogue without Jesus, to walk into another synagogue to call Him yeshua? Again, the New Testament is all in Greek, since day one. The whole hub bub about switching the name is a new phenomenon, brought on by Rabbis since the 70s. Listen, when you first walked into church you called Jesus, Jesus? Why because your Bible called Him Jesus. The early Apostles and Christians taught out of a Greek Old Testament, which is older than any LXX we have today. Also Aramaic targums, Hebrew manuscripts far older than the Masorah. The painful truth is this, Apostolic churches are teaching from the Old Testament things they see in the New. Yet, a good number of them don't run off to sit at the feet of the Lubavitcher Rebbe (thank you Esaias) like he was the peep stone in Joe Smith's top hat. Blaspheming the name of Jesus would be attacking His name, and calling it the name of a pig. The name which means Hail Zeus. You as well as I have heard them all. Yet, the fact is the fact, we only have a Greek New Testament, that Greek New Testament records the name of our Christ as Jesus. I'm real sorry, but Mary called Him Jesus. How do I know? It was recorded in Greek, by a Hellenized Judean. To write these documents to be sent out to all the Diaspora Judeans in all the corners of the Hellenized Latinized Roman empire.

The name of Jesus outlived any Aramaic, or Hebrew version. Even after the advent of the Masorah in 600 A.D.

The Christians throughout the ages continued to call Him Jesus.

[Evang.Benincasa]

I'm flabbergasted. Yea to actually think Jesus who was a Jew would be given a Hebrew name!

YIKES!

Yea who would ever reason something such as that!

Not as flabbergasted as I am that you have an entire Greek New Testament which has not the name Yeshua, but the name Jesus. yet, still insist on calling him Yeshua? The possibility that His name was taken out of a Greek LXX and given to Him at His birth is staggering. Why? Because the Angel said in Greek to Mary to call His name JESUS. No, the whole Yeshua phenomenon is a Johnny come lately, and Christians in times past, weren't having this debates. the Rabbi just sits back and throws his head back and laughs when we say that our New Testament got His name wrong.

Now, that's enough to flabbergast everyone.

[Evang.Benincasa]

So on the basis of the very, very, few (compared to the great number of people who use Yeshua) you would say they are all just one step away from renouncing Christianity?

You would not make any difference between many who call Jesus "Yeshua" and those who embrace the false aspects of this movement? You see them all the same?

Again, the whole hullabaloo about Yeshua is new, and the Hebrew Roots movement is a stepping stone right into Rabbinical Judaism. Rabbi Tovia Singer, Outreach Judaism, and Jews for Judaism is proof that Hebrew Roots are the candy cigarettes which lead to smoking the real thing.

[TJJJ]

Bunch of these folks in Kentucky. Google carl tichenor.

[Esaias]

So according to this logic that we all just use the name in our language then what if a Messianic Jew who was raised calling the Lord Yeshua wanted to ALSO call him Jesus? Would he not then be in error or sin? See where this goes?



Did God preserve the Saviour's name as "Yeshua"? Or Jesus?

The world doesn't get offended if you go around using the name "Yeshua". but they sure do get upset when you try to use the name JESUS.

A "Messianic Jew" would most likely have grown up speaking English to begin with. When I speak Spanish with people who speak Spanish I use Jesucristo. I don't expect them to say "Jesus" in the middle of their Spanish sentences or prayers.

Most people I've seen who like "Yeshua" also like "EloHeem", "HaShem", and pretend to call the bible books (including the NT epistles) by Hebrew sounding names. "In the gospel of Mattiyahu..." They call Paul "Shaul", speak of the "Revelation given to Yochanon", and also tend to wear yarmulkas and "prayer shawls". Oh, and yes they like their tzitzit. Are tsitzit biblical? Sure. but making sure it's tied according to kaballastic numerology regarding the "Shemhamforash" and the 613 mitzvot is anything BUT Biblical. They like "midrash" instead of old fashioned Christian hermeneutics. Many will DENY THEY ARE CHRISTIANS, and will deny they practice "Christianity", preferring instead to call themselves Netzariym, or Messianics, practicing Messianic Torah-keeping. So they say.

Some of them are opposed to Rabbinicalism, and Talmud, but the majority love them some Abodah Zarah, Mishna, Gemara, and Zohar. In order to study Torah they go to the Rabbis. And after going to the Rabbis for awhile, many of them leave "Yeshua" altogether and go full blown Orthodox Jew, or "Gentile Noahide".

It's pretentious. It's "I wanna be a Jew" writ large, mostly by people who have no sense of who they are to begin with. You've seen those suburban white kids with the baggy pants, wife-beater t-shirts, and the ball caps with the flat brim? Wearing lots of goofy bling, got their swagger on, talking Ebonics? Blaring Eminem or Ice Cube from the 18 inch subwoofers in their cheap Mazdas with the tacky green and purple paint jobs? Yeah, those guys? The Hebrew Roots Movement is the ecclesiastical version of those guys.

Don't be one of those guys.

[Aquila]

I'm American. I read an English Bible. Jesus is His name in English. Pretending to speak like a Jew, act, and worship like a Jew, feels fake to me. Sometimes, to me, the Hebrew roots people seem to be dressing up and pretending like they're a people that they're not. It's kind of like a Hebraic Halloween party. Lol

[Aquila]

This thread also reminds me of something I shared in a post about my talk with God. I'll share here for reference:

It's been said that, "Just a little talk with Jesus makes it right." Well, I tried this. And what happened has left me astounded. I was speaking to the LORD in prayer recently I began to ask Him, "Why are we so divided?", and, "What must I do to be holy?" And this is the message that I felt burning in my heart so hot that I had to simply type it out as the power overwhelmed me… (I paraphrase in that it all came as a block of emotions to my spirit... not necessarily words). So, here it is... my little talk with the LORD....

"Why are we so divided?"
"What must I do to be holy?"

My child, I will tell you why you are all so divided. It is your religions. They are not of me. Each of you has a list. A list of do’s and don’ts. And each of you think that I authored your respective lists. Baptists have their list, Catholics have their lists, Pentecostals have their lists, Methodists have their lists, Lutherans have their lists, Charismatics have their lists, Messianics have their lists, Episcopals have their lists… each list is different. I’m not a God of confusion. Each list is a doctrine of man. Some say you must keep the Ten Commandments that I delivered to Moses to give to my people. Some of you expand upon these and add feast days, Sabbaths, dietary regulations, linguistic nuances of eccentricity wherein you think you are shown to be wise, yet you are looking foolish in your conceits. You want to be so much like my people… but not like me. You fail to realize… I’m the eternal, the constant, the source; the Alpha, the Omega, the beginning, the ending, the all in all, the great I AM that I AM… I’m not Catholic, Protestant, or Evangelical… neither am I Jewish. I’m GOD. Still some of you have codified my teachings into a strict body of church law in which you seek to please me by changing your “behavior”… but not your “being”. Teachings of mine were for spiritual development, they were not intended to be turned into dry do’s and don’ts to maintain a religious status quo. Then some of you codified the methods with which I addressed issues in Israel or the first generation of churches... making them “commandments” instead of seeing the spirit behind the reasoning. A reasoning that endures in any context, be it time or culture. Then you added historical traditions established by various religious leaders and founders. You codified congregation structures, financial models, added liturgies, added dietary regulations, added special days of worship, added dress codes, even added prohibitions on both men and women I never required. Each of you has these LISTS! Stop trying to please me by living these man-made lists! They divide you because you measure yourselves against one another based on your respective man-made LISTS. Ask the Pharisee to list exactly what must be done to please me! Let him present his list! And suddenly you’ll see another Pharisee argue against something on the first Pharisee’s list, or seek to add something from their list to it!!! Eventually they are all squabbling over which commandments on which list has to be obeyed and which do not! Why? It is because the spirit of legalism leaves you awash in the sea of subjective personal interpretation wherein one man’s interpretation is just as good as another’s. Yet you cling to them because you think they make you “holy”. These lists don’t make you holy. What makes you Holy is… ME.

You see… I am the Vine, and you are the branches. You are called to be living extensions of me… not living extensions of the ancient nation of Israel, your given church, or your given denomination. You are called to be conformed into the image and likeness of Christ… not the image and likeness of your respective church, movement, or denomination. When you live by their LISTS… you are becoming like them… NOT like me.

And so you ask… How do I become like you? I, the LORD, shall answer you this day. Let him who has an ear, let him hear!!!...

The answer is in the very nature of my being my beloved. You see… I AM… love. When you are loving, gracious, forgiving, kind, compassionate, patient, long suffering, temperate, and giving… you are being like Me. Do you wish to fulfill “the law”??? DON’T live by it. Find its core. Find its essence. Find my reason for delivering said laws in their given contexts. You’ll discover that it is because I was teaching many different things… but the core was and always has been… MY love. Love me my child. Love me with all your heart, mind, soul, and strength. And demonstrate your love for me by loving others as yourself. If you do this you will have fulfilled the essence of MY law. If there is any other commandment ever brought to your attention, know this… it is fulfilled in this single statement, “Love thy neighbor as thyself.” In this you do no wrong… and in loving… you become like me… the one who is love itself.

So be not swayed by their LISTS. Do not be deceived by their vain and eccentric verbiage. Do not emulate a nation, a denomination, or a church. Instead… emulate Me and you will find rest for your souls. Love Me with all your being… and show me that you love Me by loving others as yourself. The only commandment I give you is this… LOVE. For love will not murder, steal, covet, slander, commit adultery, rage, revenge, or blaspheme. Love will set every day aside as holy… because love seeks to give absolute devotion every single day without end. I am not impressed with your LISTS. First, your lists all differ. And second, you don’t even keep your own lists perfectly! This makes you hypocrites of the worst kind. Why do you do this to yourselves??? Do you really think I’m IMPRESSED by anything you do? Am I impressed by any cherry picked LIST of commandments you’ve chosen to embrace… at the expense of others that you chose not to? Do you really think I’m going to open the books and judge you by each of your respective lists???! Will I judge according to dress code, hairstyles, feast days, and your labored mispronunciations of an ancient language??? Will I praise you for acting Jewish… even though if the truth were to be told… you don’t have a single drop of Hebrew blood in your body??? No. When you stand before Me… I will only seek to know two things: Did you love me with all your being? Did you seek to show your love for me by loving others as yourself? And you’ll then begin to see how your LISTS hindered you from loving your neighbors. You will see how your lusts, adulteries, thievery, slander, etc. are not rooted in failing to obey a rule on a LIST… but in your failure to LOVE. For love does no harm to the object of its affection.

So I leave you with this… become like Me. Be conformed into the very image and likeness of Jesus Christ, my beloved Son. And in this you will find true holiness. In this you will find the law of liberty… the law of LOVE. You will have discovered… ME.

This thread just reminded me of the bolded statements.

[Aquila]

Okay. The Lord woke me up after putting this on my heart. Now that I've posted this, I'm going back to sleep for a couple hours.

God bless.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Did God preserve the Saviour's name as "Yeshua"? Or Jesus?

The world doesn't get offended if you go around using the name "Yeshua". but they sure do get upset when you try to use the name JESUS.

A "Messianic Jew" would most likely have grown up speaking English to begin with. When I speak Spanish with people who speak Spanish I use Jesucristo. I don't expect them to say "Jesus" in the middle of their Spanish sentences or prayers.

Most people I've seen who like "Yeshua" also like "EloHeem", "HaShem", and pretend to call the bible books (including the NT epistles) by Hebrew sounding names. "In the gospel of Mattiyahu..." They call Paul "Shaul", speak of the "Revelation given to Yochanon", and also tend to wear yarmulkas and "prayer shawls". Oh, and yes they like their tzitzit. Are tsitzit biblical? Sure. but making sure it's tied according to kaballastic numerology regarding the "Shemhamforash" and the 613 mitzvot is anything BUT Biblical. They like "midrash" instead of old fashioned Christian hermeneutics. Many will DENY THEY ARE CHRISTIANS, and will deny they practice "Christianity", preferring instead to call themselves Netzariym, or Messianics, practicing Messianic Torah-keeping. So they say.

Some of them are opposed to Rabbinicalism, and Talmud, but the majority love them some Abodah Zarah, Mishna, Gemara, and Zohar. In order to study Torah they go to the Rabbis. And after going to the Rabbis for awhile, many of them leave "Yeshua" altogether and go full blown Orthodox Jew, or "Gentile Noahide".

It's pretentious. It's "I wanna be a Jew" writ large, mostly by people who have no sense of who they are to begin with. You've seen those suburban white kids with the baggy pants, wife-beater t-shirts, and the ball caps with the flat brim? Wearing lots of goofy bling, got their swagger on, talking Ebonics? Blaring Eminem or Ice Cube from the 18 inch subwoofers in their cheap Mazdas with the tacky green and purple paint jobs? Yeah, those guys? The Hebrew Roots Movement is the ecclesiastical version of those guys.

Don't be one of those guys.

:highfive

[Evang.Benincasa]

I'm flabbergasted. Yea to actually think Jesus who was a Jew would be given a Hebrew name!

YIKES!

Yea who would ever reason something such as that!

Brother Mike, here are some more First Century Judeans with Greek or Roman names. The Apostle Phillip, Jesus first meets with a Sanhedrin by the Greek name Nicodemus. Paul’s name isn’t his first name, it is his family name which is a Roman patrician name, as well as Marcus who is Yohanan, John Mark. His family name is also a Roman patrician name.

So now you must be flabbergasting all over the place.:heeheehee

[Evang.Benincasa]

Another thing, you have Roman Judeans one named Aquila, another Prisca, another Lois, Timothy, and his mother a Judean who has the name Eunice which is as Pagan Roman as they come.

Flabbergast is how much people want to become Judized instead of Christianized. Speaking Hebrilish doesn't make one more first centurish, or more Biblish. Definitely not more Apostolic.

I almost fell out when I walked into a Apostolic church that had Israeli flags and Hexagrams decorating the sanctuary. Seriously!?!

[Aquila]

Imagine if your second wife began dressing, talking, cooking, and acting like your unfaithful first wife because she thought that somehow you'd love her more. That's what I feel like we're doing when we seek to make our faith Jewish in style and practice.

Guys, unless Judaism is in your ancestry, is a natural part of the culture you were raised in, why pretend? If you're Dutch-English, why in the world would you turn your religion into a game of "Let's dress up and pretend we're Jewish"????

I have Scottish/Irish heritage (discovered some Dutch and Scandinavian in there too). I'm not going to pretend I'm Jewish, act Jewish, pretend that I know Hebrew when I don't, or subject myself to all the carnal ordinances of the Law of Moses. I'm a loud and proud Gentle.

Also, my first wife's family was partly Jewish (Reformed), so, I saw that mess up close. Not my cup of tea.

[Michael The Disciple]

So after all this its true. Apostolics are in no way concerned that Hebrew Roots might lead one into the law of Moses. Its all about the name of Yeshua.

But I am not surprised in a way. How could THEY who themselves make parts of the law of Moses essential to enter Heaven be concerned about some other group doing it.

So there seems to be no way to caution them against speaking evil of the name Peter preached in Acts 4:12. Its typical of what I have noted among many (thankfully not all) Apostolics.

[Aquila]

Another thing, you have Roman Judeans one named Aquila, another Prisca, another Lois, Timothy, and his mother a Judean who has the name Eunice which is as Pagan Roman as they come.

Flabbergast is how much people want to become Judized instead of Christianized. Speaking Hebrilish doesn't make one more first centurish, or more Biblish. Definitely not more Apostolic.

I almost fell out when I walked into a Apostolic church that had Israeli flags and Hexagrams decorating the sanctuary. Seriously!?!

Lol.

Would all that make them, "Apostolic-ish", at best?. Lol

[Esaias]

So after all this its true. Apostolics are in no way concerned that Hebrew Roots might lead one into the law of Moses. Its all about the name of Yeshua.

But I am not surprised in a way. How could THEY who themselves make parts of the law of Moses essential to enter Heaven be concerned about some other group doing it.

So there seems to be no way to caution them against speaking evil of the name Peter preached in Acts 4:12. Its typical of what I have noted among many (thankfully not all) Apostolics.

HRM doesn't lead to the law of Moses. It leads to the Talmud, the leaven of the Pharisees.

But it looks like you can't see anything beyond your own personal preference for a Jewish sounding name? And so you miss the whole point that has been made?

Michael, do you believe cross dressing is okay? Or do you believe Deut 22:5 is something to be laughed at, mocked, or avoided lest you be "stuck in the law of Moses"?

[Michael The Disciple]

Post 1 on this thread said in part:

The Hebrew Roots brethren are opposing the ministry with very articulate arguments, causing wonderful, solid, Apostolic brethren and from every other Christian faith, to go back to try and keep the Law.

I hardly know anyone who practices using the name YESHUA. I find nothing wrong with using it. Period. It seems there could be nothing wrong with it. Whoever teaches you must ONLY use Yeshua excluding Jesus and teaching its wrong to use Jesus is in error. From what I have seen over the years I would say there are FAR more people who call the Lord "Yeshua" than that use Yeshua and ALSO try to bring believers under the law.

So I in no way am supporting the "Hebrew Roots" groups that are teaching its sin to use Jesus or that teach going back to Moses law. I would oppose them. It could be they teach some things that I do believe. Whatever is true I am all for. Even if some heretical grioup believes the same thing.

Thats the same way I see the Apostolic Churches. Most of them seem to fall short of the original New Testament Church. But they do have some very important truth, Oneness and the new birth. Yet there are things taught among them that are seriously wrong and COULD POSSIBLY lead to the loss of salvation for some.

[Michael The Disciple]

HRM doesn't lead to the law of Moses. It leads to the Talmud, the leaven of the Pharisees.

But it looks like you can't see anything beyond your own personal preference for a Jewish sounding name? And so you miss the whole point that has been made?

Michael, do you believe cross dressing is okay? Or do you believe Deut 22:5 is something to be laughed at, mocked, or avoided lest you be "stuck in the law of Moses"?

Ok the Talmud is Jewish commentary. It is absolutely anti Messiah and blaspheming Yeshua. There have been people who study Hebrew Roots, many because they never really knew the Old Testament who have left Yeshua altogether. True. However I would hardly think that any of the groups of them who believe Yeshua is the Messiah would point anyone that direction. After all they are encouraging their followers to BELIEVE IN YESHUA.....not forsake him.

Do I mock Duet 22:5? Of course not. It is my personal preference that all women would wear long dresses. But heres the problem with Apostolics and the law.

They take you back to Duet 22:5 and say this is Heaven or Hell.

AND YET....when it comes to beards on men they TOTALLY go into hypocrite mode.

Leviticus 19:27

You shall not round the corners of your heads neither shalt thou mar the corners of THY BEARD!

Ok so on one hand the Apostolics teach on the basis of Duet 22:5 a women goes to Hell for wearing pants.

On the other hand they FULLY REJECT Leviticus 19:27! They would say "thats the Old Testament". Amen?

So then God promotes beards Apostolics preach against them. I just talked to a Pastor this past week who trying to get around the issue said he does not "favor beards" and especially for those in leadership!

You get the point? They cherry pick whatever they like from Moses.

I just wonder how many sincere people find the truth of Oneness and want to attend a Oneness Church and then discover such pathetic doctrine? They preach mightily against the traditions of men and then drive people away because they do the same thing.

Or when women are told they are going to Hell over Jewlery which in the Old Testament God approved of and the Preachers say that was OT now its forbidden in the New.

But at the same time they are given Duet 22:5...Heaven or Hell directly from the OT!

Get the point? What Im trying to say is that you all paint with WAY TO WIDE A BRUSH in some of these discussions. As if every one who might say they are into Hebrew Roots are all blasphemers of Jesus name and all become followers of the Talmud.

Some might tend to think they would have to commit sin to join an Apostolic Church. The same thing you all are saying about Hebrew Roots. I mean the truth is Apostolics (many not all) take the sinner just born again and put them under Moses law.

And THEN at the same time like the first post in this thread condemn some other group for doing the same thing.

[Evang.Benincasa]

So after all this its true. Apostolics are in no way concerned that Hebrew Roots might lead one into the law of Moses. Its all about the name of Yeshua.

But I am not surprised in a way. How could THEY who themselves make parts of the law of Moses essential to enter Heaven be concerned about some other group doing it.

So there seems to be no way to caution them against speaking evil of the name Peter preached in Acts 4:12. Its typical of what I have noted among many (thankfully not all) Apostolics.

Brother Mike, HRM doesn't teach the Law of Moses, but the Talmud. Brother Mike, no one keeps the law of the temple, no one can keep a Nazarite vow, because it needs a mediator priest. Most of the law incorporates Levitical priesthood in practice. Still can't figure out what on earth you mean by they keep parts of the law. What ceremony was performed in Deuteronomy 22:5?

Brother Michael what does Revelation 9:8 mean when it says hair like women? What is hair like women?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Ok the Talmud is Jewish commentary.

It isn't that simple. The Talmud is not actually a commentary, but it is a huge collection of Sages and Rabbis interpretations of Torah. If you ever spent long enough time with Rabbinics you would learn that when they make a quote, you can't recognize it. You, can't let them even finish the thought. Because in all your study of the Bible old and new testaments you can't for the life of you remember anything remotely close to what they are quoting. Some Christians get all doe eyed and slowly drop their jaws like they are birds just waiting for the mother to feed them. But, what the Rabbi is quoting from is Talmud. Why does it sound like he is stating these things authoritatively, because he accepts the Talmud far beyond Torah. Now there are Ribbinics who don't use Talmud, but they still follow other traditional texts. But, to the Talmudic Rabbinical Jew, the Talmud is far more than just commentary.





It is absolutely anti Messiah and blaspheming Yeshua. There have been people who study Hebrew Roots, many because they never really knew the Old Testament who have left Yeshua altogether. True. However I would hardly think that any of the groups of them who believe Yeshua is the Messiah would point anyone that direction.

You do know that your statement above is based on assumption. They really never knew the Old Testament? Please forgive me, but you are kidding yourself. Have you ever listened at length to an Anti Missionary Rabbi? Do you understand their arguments? Do you believe that the Rabbi even thinks what you believe is even considerable? I have met scores of Christians who honestly sincerely believe that the Rabbinical Jew believes in the same one God that we believe in? The answer you would get from a Rabbinical Jew would be a resounding NO WAY! The Anti Missionary Rabbi doesn't use the Talmud to refute what you believe. He goes straight to the Hebrew Bible. In Hebrew, which he knows more than three words, then the parroted, yeshua, shabbat, and shalom. It is hard for people to believe that educated in the Bible people get sucked into some outrageous situations. They never knew their Old Testament? That my deary is just a hopeful wish. It isn't a lack of Old Testament scholarship that lead them into the darkness of Rabbinical Judaism. It was their paradigm, their yearning to be the chosen people. Because after all, we have been told over and over that the chosen people sure wasn't those baptized in Jesus name. The Jew was the apple of God's eye, and we actually were a plan B. The focus becomes the Judaic emerald city. Which isn't Jerusalem from above the mother of us all.



After all they are encouraging their followers to BELIEVE IN YESHUA.....not forsake him.

Cognitive dissonance is strong. So, strong that you refuse to see what you are doing. Kentucky is how far from the nearest street in Tel Aviv? 6210 miles? But you all got together and agreed to call Him a name you never grew up speaking? Why am I calling Him Yeshua? It was His original name? Says who? Oh, because He was a Jew, and? Where is the documentation? The New Testament was written all in Greek, and when I read it last my Bible KJV said call His name JESUS. Yeshua, Yahshua, it isn't just about calling Him a Hebrew name, it is about sounding Hebrew. Like Esaias pointed out they then go further to pronounce books of the New Testament in Hebrew. Where did anyone call Him Yeshua in the oldest document that is actually about the Christ? No where, does anyone doubt that John was Yohanan? But Yohanan has a full blown patrician Roman name Marcus. I once even had someone try to Hebrewize the name of Mark. You think that the people who went into Judaism didn't love Jesus, or Yeshua as you want to call Him. It is easy to blow these people off by trying to say that they were messed up from jump street. Hey, makes you sleep better at night. Because you have already came up with a good excuse "they really never loved yeshua?" No, the better answer is that they were already pumped and primed to change their name to David Ben Avraham, to have a pin prick, and blood drawn, then walk every shabbat to synagogue.




Do I mock Duet 22:5? Of course not. It is my personal preference that all women would wear long dresses. But heres the problem with Apostolics and the law.

They take you back to Duet 22:5 and say this is Heaven or Hell.

AND YET....when it comes to beards on men they TOTALLY go into hypocrite mode.

Leviticus 19:27

You shall not round the corners of your heads neither shalt thou mar the corners of THY BEARD!

Ok so on one hand the Apostolics teach on the basis of Duet 22:5 a women goes to Hell for wearing pants.

On the other hand they FULLY REJECT Leviticus 19:27! They would say "thats the Old Testament". Amen?

So then God promotes beards Apostolics preach against them. I just talked to a Pastor this past week who trying to get around the issue said he does not "favor beards" and especially for those in leadership!

You get the point? They cherry pick whatever they like from Moses.

I just wonder how many sincere people find the truth of Oneness and want to attend a Oneness Church and then discover such pathetic doctrine? They preach mightily against the traditions of men and then drive people away because they do the same thing.

You been in religion a long time. Right?

People aren't driven away, people are sifted. The problem is this, the person just leaves to find the church that suits them. the Hebrew Rootist leaves Christianity because they feel they were already groomed for it.




Or when women are told they are going to Hell over Jewlery which in the Old Testament God approved of and the Preachers say that was OT now its forbidden in the New.

But at the same time they are given Duet 22:5...Heaven or Hell directly from the OT!

Get the point? What Im trying to say is that you all paint with WAY TO WIDE A BRUSH in some of these discussions. As if every one who might say they are into Hebrew Roots are all blasphemers of Jesus name and all become followers of the Talmud.

No, no wide brush. You are starting to sound like someone who leads a very sheltered religious life? Brother Michael? On Pal Talk do they have any Anti-Missionary Jews? Have you tried to refute them on Yeshua? Do you know their arguments? Do you know why they have a group called Jews for Judaism? Have you ever heard the story why Rabbi Tovia Singer committed his life to refute Jews for Jesus? These people aren't going after Presbyterian Jews, or Eastern Russian Orthodox Christian Jews. They go after the easy pickins, which are Hebrew Roots and Messianic groups. because they already have one foot in the synagogue to begin with.



Some might tend to think they would have to commit sin to join an Apostolic Church. The same thing you all are saying about Hebrew Roots. I mean the truth is Apostolics (many not all) take the sinner just born again and put them under Moses law.

This makes no sense.



And THEN at the same time like the first post in this thread condemn some other group for doing the same thing.

Really, the Apostolics are going around acting like Jews???

I think you are missing what has been already said in this thread. Also the first post in this thread isn't much use. We actually don't know what direction he was going to take it. Probably just spam the entire thread

[Michael The Disciple]

You do know that your statement above is based on assumption. They really never knew the Old Testament? Please forgive me, but you are kidding yourself.

Dom, my statement was not meant to be taken that the anti missionaries dont know the OT. I meant that many people who get interested in HR do so because they are weak in the OT and think they will learn something. No doubt many of them do learn more than what they knew before. But FAR MORE people are drawn into simply THAT than get drawn into a hard core sacred name HR group.

You are starting to sound like someone who leads a very sheltered religious life? Brother Michael? On Pal Talk do they have any Anti-Missionary Jews? Have you tried to refute them on Yeshua?

Actually one of the most astounding experiences I had on Paltalk was with a very serious woman anti missionary. At times she would come in the room attacking. She had not come for quite a while. One night I had a dream about a "bat" coming in and disturbing the room. The next day a female came in and immediately began attacking Yeshua. She was under another name and trying not to be recognized. I remembered the dream about the "bat" then it hit me her name had been ___ bat___. Bat of course standing for "daughter". There are some very savage AM on there even now.

Since you seem to avoid all of the comparisons I am making between HR groups and Apostolics no need for me to continue in the discussion.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Dom, my statement was not meant to be taken that the anti missionaries dont know the OT. I meant that many people who get interested in HR do so because they are weak in the OT and think they will learn something. No doubt many of them do learn more than what they knew before. But FAR MORE people are drawn into simply THAT than get drawn into a hard core sacred name HR group.

Since you seem to avoid all of the comparisons I am making between HR groups and Apostolics no need for me to continue in the discussion.

Not that I avoided the comparison with the attempt to make Apostolics out to be hypocritical law keepers because the women wear dresses and eat pulled pork sammiches. I just didn't get what you were trying to say. Anyway, thank you Brother Michael for the discussion.

[Michael The Disciple]

Not that I avoided the comparison with the attempt to make Apostolics out to be hypocritical law keepers because the women wear dresses and eat pulled pork sammiches

I never said the women who wear dresses are hypocrites. I am pointing out that false teaching among Apostolics creates the hypocrisy. I lay it totally on the teachers. I respect and applaud women who wear long dresses.

[Esaias]

I never said the women who wear dresses are hypocrites. I am pointing out that false teaching among Apostolics creates the hypocrisy. I lay it totally on the teachers. I respect and applaud women who wear long dresses.

You applaud women who follow hypocritical false teachers???

This thread is all over the place. HRM people wanna be Jews, plain and simple. Look them up on YouTube. It's sad.

And the sacred name issue is a gateway into the whole mess.

[Esaias]

Yeshua basically means "Salvation" in Hebrew. Through transliterations from Aramaic/Hebrew to Greek to Latin to Old English to modern English, He is now often known as Jesus. Because of this, the unfortunate reality is that many do not know His name nor the meaning of His name. It is our preference to use His real name that carries its intended meaning of "Yahweh is Salvation." We are not offended at the transliterated name of Jesus. We often insert "Jesus" in parentheses to help the audience connect His real name of Yahoshua/Yeshua back to Jesus. The same applies for God (elohim). YHWH (Yahweh) is the name given to us in His Word as the name of God. It is our preference to use His name as it was also YHWH's preference to use His name in the Word of God. Depending on the audience we expect to gravitate to a particular teaching, we incorporate Hebrew to the extent that is expected to be receptive by that audience. We place much value on the Hebrew language and His name, yet also realize that many using our teachings might not be in the same place just yet.

http://www.119ministries.com/about-us/faith-statement/

[Evang.Benincasa]

El Shaddai Ministries and its Pastor, Mark Biltz, is what the below anti missionary website is discussing. Mark Blitz is Mr Blood Moon. He also is a Hebrew Roots minister. What Mr Blitz does is not only teach Talmudic roots, which is exactly what Hebrew Roots end up being, but incorporates his ministry with Talmudic Rabbis, one being Chaim Richman. Which Chaim Richman is part of a tiny group looking to rebuild the temple.

http://leestoneking.com/images/Prophecy,%20Israel/Memories,Israel/Chaim_Richman_1.jpg

Some of you may be familiar with this picture of Brother Stoneking with Mr Richman from Brother Stoneking's website. Brother Stoneking's words under the picture are these, "It was a most moving experience for me to meet him! I could not hold back the tears... He has such an outstanding 'presence' about him..."

First, I would like to emphasize that Brother Stoneking is a sincere man, and a praying man. I may not agree with him on everything. But, just wanted to show this picture and Brother Stoneking's quote to give an example how people get the wrong idea. They see our ministerai leaders condoning these Rabbinical leaders as outstanding, special, having a "presence?" Someone may come back at me and say well if you say Brother Stoneking is a praying man how then is he having these feelings. Simply because of an emotional connection, not a Biblical, or a spiritual connection. Even Mr Blitz, can be swept away by emotion because of their connection to a teaching that places modern Jews and Rabbis first and foremost. Now, the Rabbinicals look at us like we are trying to convert them. They are right, we are trying to convert them, but we are trying to convert everyone. But Anti-Missionary's see Hebrew Roots groups as the devil just wearing the same exact dress as they are.

With Hebrew Roots Groups that a little leaven, leavens the entire lump. That is true, therefore in their yearning to be more Hebraic and wanting to sound more Hebraic they start with changing what they use to call Jesus with Yahshua. The rest sadly becomes the warm comfortable water, waiting for the Rabbi to slowly turn up the heat, until it comes to a full boil. Is the Rabbi evil? NO, he is just doing what any of us would do. Refute what he sees as false, teach against what he sees as blasphemous heresy. But in this case he has already had help. Because the Christian minister gone Hebrew Roots has already pumped and primed his congregants to believe with their whole heart that the Rabbi is the font of Biblical knowledge. A UPCI pastor in Fort Lauderdale had a Rabbi preach to his congregation. When he introduced the Rabbi, he said that the Rabbi taught him a lot but he only taught him little? Would we ever put a Eastern Orthodox priest in our pulpits and make the same exact claim?

The Fort Lauderdale pastor isn't evil, isn't wanting to destroy his people. What is happening is that the Rabbi had already had an opening to step in that pulpit. To be applauded as he climbed behind the podium. Even the pastor's greeting is a knee jerk reaction to what the pastor was taught his whole life in concerning modern Judaism. That the Rabbi believed in the same One God, that the Rabbi was waiting for the same Messiah, and that eventually one day they would be in a Golden Age where he and the Rabbi would be walking into the reinstated temple together. I assure you all, that the Rabbis DON'T BELIEVE you and they will be sharing anything theologically now, or in the future.

http://jewishisrael.ning.com/profiles/blogs/the-other-side-of-torah

[Amanah]

Thank you Elder Benincasa, very interesting.

[Tithesmeister]

El Shaddai Ministries and its Pastor, Mark Biltz, is what the below anti missionary website is discussing. Mark Blitz is Mr Blood Moon. He also is a Hebrew Roots minister. What Mr Blitz does is not only teach Talmudic roots, which is exactly what Hebrew Roots end up being, but incorporates his ministry with Talmudic Rabbis, one being Chaim Richman. Which Chaim Richman is part of a tiny group looking to rebuild the temple.

http://leestoneking.com/images/Prophecy,%20Israel/Memories,Israel/Chaim_Richman_1.jpg

Some of you may be familiar with this picture of Brother Stoneking with Mr Richman from Brother Stoneking's website. Brother Stoneking's words under the picture are these, "It was a most moving experience for me to meet him! I could not hold back the tears... He has such an outstanding 'presence' about him..."

First, I would like to emphasize that Brother Stoneking is a sincere man, and a praying man. I may not agree with him on everything. But, just wanted to show this picture and Brother Stoneking's quote to give an example how people get the wrong idea. They see our ministerai leaders condoning these Rabbinical leaders as outstanding, special, having a "presence?" Someone may come back at me and say well if you say Brother Stoneking is a praying man how then is he having these feelings. Simply because of an emotional connection, not a Biblical, or a spiritual connection. Even Mr Blitz, can be swept away by emotion because of their connection to a teaching that places modern Jews and Rabbis first and foremost. Now, the Rabbinicals look at us like we are trying to convert them. They are right, we are trying to convert them, but we are trying to convert everyone. But Anti-Missionary's see Hebrew Roots groups as the devil just wearing the same exact dress as they are.

With Hebrew Roots Groups that a little leaven, leavens the entire lump. That is true, therefore in their yearning to be more Hebraic and wanting to sound more Hebraic they start with changing what they use to call Jesus with Yahshua. The rest sadly becomes the warm comfortable water, waiting for the Rabbi to slowly turn up the heat, until it comes to a full boil. Is the Rabbi evil? NO, he is just doing what any of us would do. Refute what he sees as false, teach against what he sees as blasphemous heresy. But in this case he has already had help. Because the Christian minister gone Hebrew Roots has already pumped and primed his congregants to believe with their whole heart that the Rabbi is the font of Biblical knowledge. A UPCI pastor in Fort Lauderdale had a Rabbi preach to his congregation. When he introduced the Rabbi, he said that the Rabbi taught him a lot but he only taught him little? Would we ever put a Eastern Orthodox priest in our pulpits and make the same exact claim?

The Fort Lauderdale pastor isn't evil, isn't wanting to destroy his people. What is happening is that the Rabbi had already had an opening to step in that pulpit. To be applauded as he climbed behind the podium. Even the pastor's greeting is a knee jerk reaction to what the pastor was taught his whole life in concerning modern Judaism. That the Rabbi believed in the same One God, that the Rabbi was waiting for the same Messiah, and that eventually one day they would be in a Golden Age where he and the Rabbi would be walking into the reinstated temple together. I assure you all, that the Rabbis DON'T BELIEVE you and they will be sharing anything theologically now, or in the future.

http://jewishisrael.ning.com/profiles/blogs/the-other-side-of-torah

EB, we have once more found common ground. I believe you are dead on with this post.

Why do we believe we are second class citizens to the Jews?

It is because we have been led to believe something that is NOT true. It is no wonder that Christians want to be a part of the HRM, or even become orthodox Jews. They have been led to believe that this is a better way.

Bible, King James Version

John.14 Verse 6

[6] Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.


Jesus said this to the Jews.There is only one way to God, Jew or Gentile. The Jews rejected Him. We should be careful that what became a stumbling block to the Jews, does not become a stumbling block to us as well. Galatians is written about this very possibility.

[RachelRose]

Your way to late. Most Apostolic Churches preach tithing directly out of the law. Their next favorite passage is Duet. 22:5
I'm sure there is more.

:highfive

Sigh.

UPCI is so into tithing.

This is why UPCI is so rich. I chose to SUPPORT my local assembly of saints with my time, food and lastly, money. I have heard all the arguments from mega-churches (POA) all the way down to tiny home church when I lived in south Korea. UPCI picks what PARTS of the law we will beat people up with. God forbid you ask can I treat my SLAVE with dignity. The normal response is God does not allow slaves anymore. So to it is with the tithe; it is a form of slavery.

[RachelRose]

EB, we have once more found common ground. I believe you are dead on with this post.

Why do we believe we are second class citizens to the Jews?

It is because we have been led to believe something that is NOT true. It is no wonder that Christians want to be a part of the HRM, or even become orthodox Jews. They have been led to believe that this is a better way.

Bible, King James Version

John.14 Verse 6

[6] Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.


Jesus said this to the Jews.There is only one way to God, Jew or Gentile. The Jews rejected Him. We should be careful that what became a stumbling block to the Jews, does not become a stumbling block to us as well. Galatians is written about this very possibility.

If that rabbi is not baptized in the NAME OF JESUS he is going to end up with Billy Graham.

[Michael The Disciple]

:highfive

Sigh.

UPCI is so into tithing.

This is why UPCI is so rich. I chose to SUPPORT my local assembly of saints with my time, food and lastly, money. I have heard all the arguments from mega-churches (POA) all the way down to tiny home church when I lived in south Korea. UPCI picks what PARTS of the law we will beat people up with. God forbid you ask can I treat my SLAVE with dignity. The normal response is God does not allow slaves anymore. So to it is with the tithe; it is a form of slavery.

So really these people are not concerned about New Covenant Christians turning back to Moses law. Their great fear is simply that a searcher might discover Jesus actually had/has a Hebrew name. On THAT point they will generate many forum threads and slug it out till the end of time.

On whether to keep the Mosaic law they obviously have little regard since some of their key doctrines come straight from it.

[Evang.Benincasa]

So really these people are not concerned about New Covenant Christians turning back to Moses law. Their great fear is simply that a searcher might discover Jesus actually had/has a Hebrew name. On THAT point they will generate many forum threads and slug it out till the end of time.

On whether to keep the Mosaic law they obviously have little regard since some of their key doctrines come straight from it.


Mike you just can't get over that His name was Jesus.

That the Hebrew guessing game is nonsense That continuing to claim His name was actually Hebrew means that the New Testament you hold isn't original.

[Evang.Benincasa]

What's with people listening to modern Israel's national anthem?

[Michael The Disciple]

What's with people listening to modern Israel's national anthem?

I never have. If it were playing somewhere that I was I would. So?

[FlamingZword]

The Jews rejected Him.

The Jews accepted him, the first early church was composed entirely of Jews.
for the first years of the church, it was composed only of Jews and it had thousands of members.

[Praxeas]

The NT Was written in Greek and His name in Greek is Iesous, pronounced Yesoos

Iesous transliterates the Hebrew name Yeshua in Greek writings like the LXX

[Tithesmeister]

The Jews accepted him, the first early church was composed entirely of Jews.
for the first years of the church, it was composed only of Jews and it had thousands of members.

We’ll . . .
You are absolutely right about the early church being Jews.

There were thousands of members.

But, there were millions of Jews. Across the board the Jews overwhelmingly rejected Jesus. Malachi prophesied that His name would be great amongst the Gentiles. Even in Isaiah it was prophesied that he would be rejected by the Jews.

John 1:11

11] He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

Isaiah 53:3

He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

Mark.8

[31] And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.

Mark.12

[10] And have ye not read this scripture; The stone which the builders rejected is become the head of the corner:

The Jews rejected Jesus. This is how salvation came to the Gentiles. However, you are correct about the first church being Jews before salvation was offered to the Gentiles. This is an important part of the story of the gospel being preached primarily to the Gentiles by Paul. The life and ministry of Paul himself is an analogy of the Jews rejecting Jesus and His offering salvation to the Gentiles.

[aegsm76]

The Jews accepted him, the first early church was composed entirely of Jews.
for the first years of the church, it was composed only of Jews and it had thousands of members.

Only?

And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

[aegsm76]

Mike you just can't get over that His name was Jesus.

That the Hebrew guessing game is nonsense That continuing to claim His name was actually Hebrew means that the New Testament you hold isn't original.

We do not even know how much correlation there is between the modern day Hebrew and the original Hebrew.
It was a dead language that was resurrected, so this "discussion" over the real name is nonsense.
Interesting, maybe, but not to be taken too serious.
I have seen too many miracles performed and lives changed with the application of the name, Jesus, to doubt it.

[Michael The Disciple]

Dont forget, A tiny minority of Americans follow Jesus. A great majority reject his Lordship.

[Michael The Disciple]

We do not even know how much correlation there is between the modern day Hebrew and the original Hebrew.
It was a dead language that was resurrected, so this "discussion" over the real name is nonsense.
Interesting, maybe, but not to be taken too serious.
I have seen too many miracles performed and lives changed with the application of the name, Jesus, to doubt it.

Nonsense? To know more about your Savior? Is anyone telling you to doubt that Jesus is the Messiah's name in English?

[RachelRose]

Nonsense? To know more about your Savior? Is anyone telling you to doubt that Jesus is the Messiah's name in English?

You are right. The language was pretty much unused until this recent church age. I still think His name is Jesus. Which makes me wonder; what did the translators believe about God in general? Did any of them NOT believe in a trinity? If they already had the idea God was made from two titles and a substance, could this have slanted the translation?

[aegsm76]

Nonsense? To know more about your Savior? Is anyone telling you to doubt that Jesus is the Messiah's name in English?

It is nonsense (makes no sense) because we cannot know.
Sort of like arguing about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
I also said it was interesting, but not to be taken too seriously.

[Michael The Disciple]

It is nonsense (makes no sense) because we cannot know.
Sort of like arguing about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
I also said it was interesting, but not to be taken too seriously.

But how do YOU know WE cannot know?

[Evang.Benincasa]

It is nonsense (makes no sense) because we cannot know.
Sort of like arguing about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
I also said it was interesting, but not to be taken too seriously.

:highfive

[Evang.Benincasa]

But how do YOU know WE cannot know?

Michael, the information is found in your Greek New Testament. The name of Iesous was in the Hebrew scriptures 500 years before the birth of Christ. Now, the bigger problem is this, the name of Iesous/Jesus has been in Christendom since its inception. So, if His name was some other form, then your problem isn't with you calling Him Yeshua, Yahshua, Yohushua, Yahnsooe, or Jesus. Your problem is that the New Testament which was translated into English from Greek has some major mistakes. One, they could'nt remember His correct name.

You have a Greek New Testament, Game Over.

You want to sing the national anthem of Israel? Speak Hebrew? All because somehow it makes you more Christian? That's on you, but please don't think that everyone is going to salute this stuff. There isn't a debate, His name has been Jesus for over 2,000 years of Christian history.

There is merit to what aegsm76 is posting.

[Evang.Benincasa]

I never have. If it were playing somewhere that I was I would. So?

Oh, I'm sorry its on your list on your YouTube channel.

[Evang.Benincasa]

We do not even know how much correlation there is between the modern day Hebrew and the original Hebrew.
It was a dead language that was resurrected, so this "discussion" over the real name is nonsense.
Interesting, maybe, but not to be taken too serious.
I have seen too many miracles performed and lives changed with the application of the name, Jesus, to doubt it.

:thumbsup

[Evang.Benincasa]

Dont forget, A tiny minority of Americans follow Jesus. A great majority reject his Lordship.

Many called but few are chosen. The way is narrow, and the gate is strait, and few there be that find it. The broadway and the wide gate leads to destruction and many enter through it, It doesn't say anyone has a hard time finding that door.

[Evang.Benincasa]

We’ll . . .
You are absolutely right about the early church being Jews.

There were thousands of members.

But, there were millions of Jews. Across the board the Jews overwhelmingly rejected Jesus. Malachi prophesied that His name would be great amongst the Gentiles. Even in Isaiah it was prophesied that he would be rejected by the Jews.

John 1:11

11] He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

Isaiah 53:3

He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

Mark.8

[31] And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again.

Mark.12

[10] And have ye not read this scripture; The stone which the builders rejected is become the head of the corner:

The Jews rejected Jesus. This is how salvation came to the Gentiles. However, you are correct about the first church being Jews before salvation was offered to the Gentiles. This is an important part of the story of the gospel being preached primarily to the Gentiles by Paul. The life and ministry of Paul himself is an analogy of the Jews rejecting Jesus and His offering salvation to the Gentiles.

Oh they were Judeans. Hellenized Judeans, Phillip has no Hebrew name origin, Nicodemus first Sanhedrin who speaks with Jesus. No Hebrew origin for his name. Sceva a priest no Hebrew origin for his name, his name is Latin for left handed. The way the Hebrew Roots people believe is that the early first century Judea looked like a Bible theme park, or Williamsburg, Crown Heights, & Borough Park Brooklyn. Sorry, but it just isn't the case.

[Amanah]

Oh they were Judeans. Hellenized Judeans, Phillip has no Hebrew name origin, Nicodemus first Sanhedrin who speaks with Jesus. No Hebrew origin for his name. Sceva a priest no Hebrew origin for his name, his name is Latin for left handed. The way the Hebrew Roots people believe is that the early first century Judea looked like a Bible theme park, or Williamsburg, Crown Heights, & Borough Park Brooklyn. Sorry, but it just isn't the case.

After Alexander the Great, during the Seleucid dynasty, the high priesthood became a political position sold to the highest bidder, the line of Zadok had moved to Eqypt to set up an illegitimate temple, the priesthood died out and disappeared.

So the NT was written in a totally Hellenized environment.

[Evang.Benincasa]

After Alexander the Great, during the Seleucid dynasty, the high priesthood became a political position sold to the highest bidder, the line of Zadok had moved to Eqypt to set up an illegitimate temple, the priesthood died out and disappeared.

So the NT was written in a totally Hellenized environment.

https://blog.blinq.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/655x296_gif-excited-minions.gif

[Steven Avery]

Oh they were Judeans. Hellenized Judeans, Phillip has no Hebrew name origin, Nicodemus first Sanhedrin who speaks with Jesus. No Hebrew origin for his name. Sceva a priest no Hebrew origin for his name, his name is Latin for left handed. The way the Hebrew Roots people believe is that the early first century Judea looked like a Bible theme park, or Williamsburg, Crown Heights, & Borough Park Brooklyn. Sorry, but it just isn't the case.If you accept the historical understanding of early Gospel accounts, e.g. in the 40s, you have the almost certain identification of Luke's Theophilus.

Luke 1:3
It seemed good to me also,
having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first,
to write unto thee in order,
most excellent Theophilus,

Theophilus was the high priest c. 40-41, as given by Josephus, and thus at that period would be "most excellent." Later, when Acts was written, a bit after 60 AD., his family was still involved in the priesthood, but Theophilus was no longer the most excellent high priest.

Acts 1:1
The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus,
of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,

Theophilus, the high priest, a nice "Hebrew Roots" name :).

=========

Beyond that, I also think the case is quite reasonable that Luke himself was a priest, and he was obliquely including himself in this reference:

Acts 6:7
And the word of God increased;
and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly;
and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith.

Look carefully about the inside scoop that Luke offers to the Temple events in the first chapters.

Steven

[Michael The Disciple]

Oh, I'm sorry its on your list on your YouTube channel.

There are many things there I have not watched. Most of it. I still have not watched the Israel national anthem and did not know it was there. Maybe my wife watched it. And again, so what we love Israel.

This is the Youtube channel I concern myself with.

https://www.youtube.com/user/discipleinlight/videos

I am discipleinlight.

[Evang.Benincasa]

There are many things there I have not watched. Most of it. I still have not watched the Israel national anthem and did not know it was there. Maybe my wife watched it. And again, so what we love Israel.

This is the Youtube channel I concern myself with.

https://www.youtube.com/user/discipleinlight/videos

I am discipleinlight.

Bro, you got to get some sleep. How old is your mattress, and pillows? Restful night sleep. Also exercise is no joke, it is a must. Sleep, eating correctly, and exercise.

[Evang.Benincasa]

If you accept the historical understanding of early Gospel accounts, e.g. in the 40s, you have the almost certain identification of Luke's Theophilus.

Luke 1:3
It seemed good to me also,
having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first,
to write unto thee in order,
most excellent Theophilus,

Theophilus was the high priest c. 40-41, as given by Josephus, and thus at that period would be "most excellent." Later, when Acts was written, a bit after 60 AD., his family was still involved in the priesthood, but Theophilus was no longer the most excellent high priest.

Acts 1:1
The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus,
of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,

Theophilus, the high priest, a nice "Hebrew Roots" name :).

=========

Beyond that, I also think the case is quite reasonable that Luke himself was a priest, and he was obliquely including himself in this reference:

Acts 6:7
And the word of God increased;
and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly;
and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith.

Look carefully about the inside scoop that Luke offers to the Temple events in the first chapters.

Steven

Luke being a priest I have never heard, can you explain more please?

[Evang.Benincasa]

If you accept the historical understanding of early Gospel accounts, e.g. in the 40s, you have the almost certain identification of Luke's Theophilus.

Luke 1:3
It seemed good to me also,
having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first,
to write unto thee in order,
most excellent Theophilus,

Theophilus was the high priest c. 40-41, as given by Josephus, and thus at that period would be "most excellent." Later, when Acts was written, a bit after 60 AD., his family was still involved in the priesthood, but Theophilus was no longer the most excellent high priest.

Acts 1:1
The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus,
of all that Jesus began both to do and teach,

Theophilus, the high priest, a nice "Hebrew Roots" name :).

=========

Beyond that, I also think the case is quite reasonable that Luke himself was a priest, and he was obliquely including himself in this reference:

Acts 6:7
And the word of God increased;
and the number of the disciples multiplied in Jerusalem greatly;
and a great company of the priests were obedient to the faith.

Look carefully about the inside scoop that Luke offers to the Temple events in the first chapters.

Steven

:)

[TJJJ]

Luke being a priest I have never heard, can you explain more please?

Yeah, I am interested in that one. Give us some resources that you are drawing from.

No antagonism but just some curiosity.

[Steven Avery]

In my studies, the Theophilus proposal came first. In modern times Richard H. Anderson wrote a paper on this, Theophilus: A Proposal, in 1996, and there were very strong follow-ups in the blog and forum realm by a few gentlemen, including Lee Dahn and John Lupia. In 2011 Anderson wrote a paper: Who are Johanna and Theophilus?: The Irony of the Intended Audience of the Gospel of Luke.

When I researched the topic, I found that it had been studied in the 1700s, with credit to Theodore Hase (1682-1731), including support by the very sharp Christian scholar, Johann David Michaelis (1717-1791.) Since I had long believed the Gospels were written early, the proposal was simply a natural truth. The late dating blunders and plague of modern scholarship are really an irrelevant diversion to the evangelical Bible study realm.

David Allen Lewis has some supportive writing and youtube material as well, and discusses also the authorship of Hebrews.

Rick Strelan wrote Luke the Priest in 2013. Even though it was received with some equivocation by Richard H. Anderson, it seems to me as simply the natural adjunct truth, with Luke's detailed and smooth knowledge of the Temple in the early years fitting perfectly. (As well as the Prologue affirmation of eyewitnesses.)

And I'll acknowledge that I have not studied this as closely as the Theophilus proposal, and I am just going by what seems to be the Holy Spirit sense of the priest proposal.

The main possible objection is .. "wasn't he a physician".

Colossians 4:14
Luke, the beloved physician,
and Demas, greet you.

Likely, as commonly occurs, there was more than one Luke, and the physician reference was used precisely to show the distinction of the once-mentioned other Luke.

And I put a little bit on my blog-forum:

Theophilus the High Priest
http://www.purebibleforum.com/forumdisplay.php?66-Theophilus-the-high-priest

And likely will do more. However, a few other studies have taken a good chunk of my time and energy the last year or two :) . Such as the discovery that Codex Sinaiticus is an 1800s production. And that the Christian world has a big problem with the deadly embrace of the "yahweh" (Jupiter) devil. Which infected even what is now Homestead Heritage, essentially destroying a powerful anointing that could have benefited the Christian world. Another study is a long-term defense of the authenticity of the heavenly witnesses verse, following up on the work of Michael Maynard (1955-2014).

So even though the Theophilus issues, and the identity of Luke, are fundamental Christian evangelical scholarship (revelation, if you will), I have not given the topic quite the study and writing energy that is deserves.

Steven Avery
Dutchess County, NY

[FlamingZword]

Only?

And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

This event happened over three years after that the church was established.
So before chapter 10 yes for those early years ONLY Jews were part of the church.

[houston]

The way the Hebrew Roots people believe is that the early first century Judea looked like a Bible theme park, or Williamsburg, Crown Heights, & Borough Park Brooklyn. Sorry, but it just isn't the case.

Like this?


https://m.youtube.com/watch?ebc=ANyPxKoxaoYi3vioeSW0fka7dr8yrFxYukNiuVch xyQIO8670z6CAPDK4vX8LidoX_NuVcsVqugcoiFfyc2u8jUzwg jmqks72A&time_continue=9&v=NhaWqZOAplo

[Steven Avery]

So, if His name was some other form, then your problem isn't with you calling Him Yeshua, Yahshua, Yohushua, Yahnsooe, or Jesus.And I don’t rhink we should mix names that are legitimately in English, Greek or Hebrew scriptures (Yeshua and Jesus) with gibberish monsrosities like yahshua that were fabricated by know-nothings, often simply to try to find a pairing for the yahweh devil.

Thus, as an example, yahshua is a major component of Twelve Tribes and Homestread Heritage doctrine, and is not just an alternative, but actually an enemy and opponent of the Lord Jesus Christ, a faux substitute.

It is our preference to use His real name that carries its intended meaning of "Yahweh is Salvation." We are not offended at the transliterated name of Jesus. We often insert "Jesus" in parentheses to help the audience connect His real name of Yahoshua/Yeshua back to Jesus.Thus I strongly advise the brethren to have nothing to do with ministries, churches, assemblies, fellowshps or communities that show any reverence for “Yahweh” (Jove == Jupiter == Jove-pater == Yahweh father) and any usage of “Yahoshua” or similar gibberish fabrications that were designed only to support “Yahweh”.

With Hebrew Roots Groups ... wanting to sound more Hebraic they start with changing what they use to call Jesus with Yahshua.When that occurs they have become enemies of the scriptures, the Gospel and the Lord Jesus Christ.

no it doesn't make anyone Hebrew roots if they call Jesus Yeshua, Yahshua, Yehoshua, Yahvahashua, Yesha, and the many other word jumbles they constantly come up with. ... If you are Hebrew, and was raised speaking Hebrew then I guess you call Him Yeshua or Yehoshua. But someone who has been raised calling Him Jesus to go and start calling Him in another language serves no logical purpose.Returning to the first part of this post, Yeshua and Yehoshua should not be mixed in as “word jumbles.”

Steven

[Sister Alvear]

I need a written Bible study on things...

[votivesoul]

Oh they were Judeans. Hellenized Judeans, Phillip has no Hebrew name origin, Nicodemus first Sanhedrin who speaks with Jesus. No Hebrew origin for his name. Sceva a priest no Hebrew origin for his name, his name is Latin for left handed. The way the Hebrew Roots people believe is that the early first century Judea looked like a Bible theme park, or Williamsburg, Crown Heights, & Borough Park Brooklyn. Sorry, but it just isn't the case.

Have you heard of the idea of Nicodemus being originally Nak-dimon in Hebrew, or of Sceva being Sheva in Hebrew?

I have not looked deeply into it, only caught a passing reference here and there. But I thought it worth a mention here, in the event there is some basis for it.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Have you heard of the idea of Nicodemus being originally Nak-dimon in Hebrew, or of Sceva being Sheva in Hebrew?

I have not looked deeply into it, only caught a passing reference here and there. But I thought it worth a mention here, in the event there is some basis for it.

Yes, but when you research names in the first century you find that the Latin name Sceva (Hellenized version) and Nicodemus weren't transliterated from Hebrew. Because if they were, those names actually mean something in Greek and Latin. The Hebrew words you mention don't mean the same things as the Latin Sceva (left handed) and Nicodemus (people win). So as far as the Hebrew origins of these two names, there is no evidence.

[Michael The Disciple]

And whats funny is many Preachers and Teachers will LABOR over a Greek or Hebrew word in a sermon or discussion. They will roll out Strongs, Vines, Robertson, whoever they can find and wring the life out of the word.

And yet when it comes to the name of Jesus they have NO interest in looking beyond the English.

[Esaias]

And whats funny is many Preachers and Teachers will LABOR over a Greek or Hebrew word in a sermon or discussion. They will roll out Strongs, Vines, Robertson, whoever they can find and wring the life out of the word.

And yet when it comes to the name of Jesus they have NO interest in looking beyond the English.

No, we look beyond the English and find IESOUS.

[Evang.Benincasa]

No, we look beyond the English and find IESOUS.

Amen.

Strongs, Vines, and other Lexicons for the New Testament have nothing concerning an original Hebrew or Aramaic New Testament. So, when we go beyound the English we find the name of the Christ in GREEK. For over 2,000 years nothing changed. Those who want to use the Hebrew guessing game, have no documentation as far as a New Testament manuscript. Therefore attacks on te name of Jesus come in the form of half truths and outright lies. Everything from the missing J to Jesus meaning Hail Zeus or the dumber hey Zeus? Sad, but the old song goes Call Him by His name, call Him by His Name, His name is JESUS, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, call Him by His name!

[Amanah]

I need a written Bible study on things...


Philippians 2:9-11 (AV)
Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him,
and given him a name which is above every name:
That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

Psalm 83:18
That men may know that thou,
whose name alone is JEHOVAH,
art the most high over all the earth.

Yet in the 1800s an idea arose that the real name requires us to reject the Hebrew Bible, as it is written, change the vowels and reduce the syllables and come up with "yahweh". Ironically, this came about largely by Gesenius connecting the God of Israel with the pagan Jupiter.

In fact, Jupiter is Jove-pater (father Jove) and Jove in Latin is pronounced ..

"yahweh"

Thus Jupiter is father yahweh. Oops. Those invoking and seeking "yahweh" are actually looking for Jove (Jupiter.) So Jupiter has tricked Christians into honoring him in reading, song, worship and prayer. The folks who have been tricked may think they are speaking some modern restoration revelation of the Tetragram, the name of God in the Hebrew Bible. When actually they are calling on a devil! Oops.

A Karaite gentleman named Nehemia Gordon even put this problem in stark yet powerful words:

"Have you been praying to Jupiter"?

"The greatest trick Jupiter ever pulled was convincing the world he isn't worshipped."

Brothers and sisters, this problem is pernicious, fundamental and runs deep. Top apostolic writers have fallen for this delusion.

And one group with an apostolic heritage is actually deeply involved in "Yahweh-worship". Where the prayer rooms ring "ohhh yahweh", crying out to a devil. This is one critical issue of our day.

And the truth of the pure word of God, including the supremacy of the name of Jesus and proper usage of Jehovah and LORD for the Tetragram, should be considered. Sophistry that has passed for Biblical scholarship should be fully rejected.

Acts 14:12
And they called Barnabas, Jupiter;
and Paul, Mercurius,
because he was the chief speaker.

Acts 14:13
Then the priest of Jupiter,
which was before their city,
brought oxen and garlands unto the gates,
and would have done sacrifice with the people.

Acts 19:35
And when the townclerk had appeased the people, he said,
Ye men of Ephesus, what man is there that knoweth not how
that the city of the Ephesians is a worshipper of the great goddess Diana,
and of the image which fell down from Jupiter?

All verses from the Authorized Version. Thank you for your consideration! Feedback and counterpoint and iron sharpeneth sharing welcome.

=====

FYI:
The latter quote above from Nehemia is given as an offshoot of the similar pronouncement about the devil in the movie The Usual Suspects, 1995.

"The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist."

Which itself is similar to The Screwtape Letters and the quote goes back to the French poet Charles Baudelaire (1821-1867).

"La plus belle des ruses du diable est de vous persuader qu'il n'existe pas."

=====

Yours in Jesus name,
Steven


http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?t=50557&highlight=Hebrew+Roots

[Steven Avery]

Thanks, Amanah, for bringing that over from an earlier post.

"And one group with an apostolic heritage"
- sister Alvear has a pretty solid idea as to what group is being referenced!

There is some backup material on a forum.

Jehovah or "yahweh" ?
http://www.purebibleforum.com/forumdisplay.php?85-Jehovah-or-yahweh

the Homestead Heritage paradox
http://www.purebibleforum.com/forumdisplay.php?86-the-Homestead-Heritage-paradox
the plague of yahwehism
http://www.purebibleforum.com/forumdisplay.php?88-the-plague-of-yahwehism

Steven

[Sister Alvear]

Yes, I know that group....however Hebrew roots doctrine is spreading like wildfire in Brazil....any help is deeply appreciated.

[Amanah]

Yes, I know that group....however Hebrew roots doctrine is spreading like wildfire in Brazil....any help is deeply appreciated.

what if you asked one of the HR leaders to give you a write up on what they believe and our scholars can give you data to refute them?

[Steven Avery]

what if you asked one of the HR leaders to give you a write up on what they believe and our scholars can give you data to refute them?That is hard because there are wide divergences.

Some Hebrew Roots doctrines are simply false, such as when they mangle the Reformation Bible (including AV and Portuguese equivalents) scriptures selectively to their own doctrines.

Note that this mirrors the modern corruption version approach of letting 1,000 contradictory versions bloom. (A subtle Chairman Mao reference.). However, Hebrew Roots and Messianics have their own special attacks on the purity and perfection of the Bible. Some will place the New Testament in an inferior position, as commentary, which is a hopeless monstrosity. They will use any one of a number of rather horrid versions.

Another example are attacks on the name of Jesus, and it becomes simply a false cult if the replacement attempts are yahweh and yahshua. (Our sister might remember the Texas prayer halls ringing with one or both false names, an infection that really heightened from the 1990s to today, even to an attack on the apostolic water baptism for remission of sins. They would also use dozens of poor versions.)

The attempt to replace Jesus with Yeshua, and replace all sorts of other names, is a similar downhill cultish pathway, although then they use at least a valid Hebrew name rather than yahweh-yahshua devil gibberish.

The problems in emphasizing Rabbinic Talmudism are huge. However, some Hebrew Roots take more of a Karaite approach. Note that one Karaite teacher, Nehemia Gordon, with Hebrew Roots friends and enemies, has played a major role in showing that Yehovah, or Jehovah as in the AV, is excellent for the YHVH, while the creepy yahweh is not only wrong, but is a devil name. So I would say that, on that topic, they can be way ahead of many of the Pentecostal pseudo-elite yahweh-pushers.

Other elements can be attractive without attacking the basics. The case that the 7th-day sabbath is unchanged from Old Testament to New is an example. Even accepting that the dietary restrictions against scavenger animals are a Godly wisdom for the digestive systems of all men is quite understandable. The holiday alternatives as well, when we see that the Christmas thing is without any biblical warrant. So the case can be made that orthodox Christianity and Pentecostalism supply weaknesses that make Hebrew Roots attractive.

I’ve tried to supply a delicate balance here.

Steven

[Esaias]

Yes, I know that group....however Hebrew roots doctrine is spreading like wildfire in Brazil....any help is deeply appreciated.

In the early 1900s, Jesus name baptism and the Oneness of God spread like wildfire, because people were getting the Holy Ghost left and right at Oneness meetings, and not so much at the trinitarian meetings. There was a definite difference in the power being manifested in apostolic meetings vs trinitarian meetings. The same kind of thing happened a bit earlier, as Pentecostals were having full blown red hot revival and the Holiness groups weren't really making much headway.

The proof should be in the pudding, I would think?

[Evang.Benincasa]

In the early 1900s, Jesus name baptism and the Oneness of God spread like wildfire, because people were getting the Holy Ghost left and right at Oneness meetings, and not so much at the trinitarian meetings. There was a definite difference in the power being manifested in apostolic meetings vs trinitarian meetings. The same kind of thing happened a bit earlier, as Pentecostals were having full blown red hot revival and the Holiness groups weren't really making much headway.

The proof should be in the pudding, I would think?

:yourock

[Michael The Disciple]

Yes, I know that group....however Hebrew roots doctrine is spreading like wildfire in Brazil....any help is deeply appreciated.

So are people getting the Holy Ghost in this movement that is spreading like wildfire?

[Evang.Benincasa]

So are people getting the Holy Ghost in this movement that is spreading like wildfire?

How did you get that from what she said?

She is saying that these Brazilians are getting some strange Hebrew going.
They are getting rid of Jesus and adopting Yeshua.In short if you read the thread they are a sacred name group. Just a bunch of people who know less Hebrew than Chinese, all feeling that if they make up a name for Jesus they will feel holier?

[Michael The Disciple]

How did you get that from what she said?

She is saying that these Brazilians are getting some strange Hebrew going.
They are getting rid of Jesus and adopting Yeshua.In short if you read the thread they are a sacred name group. Just a bunch of people who know less Hebrew than Chinese, all feeling that if they make up a name for Jesus they will feel holier?

Well I have not read every post in the thread. So they want to only use Yeshua? That is spreading like wildfire?What is the rest of their doctrine? Are they trying to bring people back under Moses law?

[TGBTG]

So are people getting the Holy Ghost in this movement that is spreading like wildfire?

How did you get that from what she said?

She is saying that these Brazilians are getting some strange Hebrew going.
They are getting rid of Jesus and adopting Yeshua.In short if you read the thread they are a sacred name group. Just a bunch of people who know less Hebrew than Chinese, all feeling that if they make up a name for Jesus they will feel holier?

Esaias' "measuring stick"
In the early 1900s, Jesus name baptism and the Oneness of God spread like wildfire, because people were getting the Holy Ghost left and right at Oneness meetings, and not so much at the trinitarian meetings. There was a definite difference in the power being manifested in apostolic meetings vs trinitarian meetings. The same kind of thing happened a bit earlier, as Pentecostals were having full blown red hot revival and the Holiness groups weren't really making much headway.

The proof should be in the pudding, I would think?

[Esaias]

Esaias' "measuring stick"

Do you disagree? Please elaborate. BTW, I was just offering my opinion, nothing more.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Well I have not read every post in the thread. So they want to only use Yeshua? That is spreading like wildfire?What is the rest of their doctrine? Are they trying to bring people back under Moses law?

You mean build a temple, have a mediator priesthood with animal sacrifices?

Hebrew roots is more on the side of calling everything by a Hebrew name or title. Children calling their father abba, calling the sabbath shabbat, calling the names of the books of the Bible by Hebrew titles, If you read every post on the thread you should of clicked the website that Sister Alvear offered. Even in Portuguese you can figure out how these people are fabricating their own private Idahostan. The whole Yeshua hullabaloo is a Johnny come lately, and with the advent of the internet has gained followers. The whole sacred name movement is an American phenomenon nothing more. What is sad, is that the New Testament was NEVER written in Hebrew or Aramaic yet, the sacred namers continue to butcher the New Testament with their own rendition of Hebrew.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Do you disagree? Please elaborate. BTW, I was just offering my opinion, nothing more.

Yes, I would also be interested in TGBTG's view. :)

[TGBTG]

Do you disagree? Please elaborate. BTW, I was just offering my opinion, nothing more.

I was not agreeing nor disagreeing. You referenced the 1900 pentecostal revivals that were spreading like wildfire back then compared to the "established churches."

You inferred that people were receiving the Holy Ghost in those movement, which was proof that the movements were backed by God.

MTD then asked if these Hebrew movement spreading like wildfire in Brazil is leading to people receiving the Holy Ghost?

Following the premise you stated (your measuring stick..lol), if these people are receiving the Holy Ghost left and right similar to the 1900 pentecostals, then, the movement is backed by God ("proof in the pudding")

On a separate note, I am surprised about this statement you made:

The same kind of thing happened a bit earlier, as Pentecostals were having full blown red hot revival and the Holiness groups weren't really making much headway.

I thought you do not believe trinity pentecostals are saved.

[Esaias]

I was not agreeing nor disagreeing. You referenced the 1900 pentecostal revivals that were spreading like wildfire back then compared to the "established churches."

You inferred that people were receiving the Holy Ghost in those movement, which was proof that the movements were backed by God.

MTD then asked if these Hebrew movement spreading like wildfire in Brazil is leading to people receiving the Holy Ghost?

Following the premise you stated (your measuring stick..lol), if these people are receiving the Holy Ghost left and right similar to the 1900 pentecostals, then, the movement is backed by God ("proof in the pudding")

On a separate note, I am surprised about this statement you made:



I thought you do not believe trinity pentecostals are saved.

Judas was among the 12 sent out to cast out devils and so forth. The signs confirm the Word being preached, they do not prove someone is saved.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Judas was among the 12 sent out to cast out devils and so forth. The signs confirm the Word being preached, they do not prove someone is saved.

:thumbsup

[RachelRose]

First off define what you mean when you say "Hebrew Roots Movement". It seems to be like when one says "Charismatic Movement" or "Apostolic Movement". There may be hundreds of thousands or millions of people within these movements. So would you say that of all those people you have met 5 per cent of them? 1 per cent of them?Even that would be a tremendous number of people for you to have met and understand their beliefs.

There may be minor or major differences among them. I have met a fair number of people who either put a high value on knowing the original Hebrew name or at least like to use it who do not teach one must obey Moses. I myself fit somewhere in that area.

Some teach using anything but the version they use will be lost and demand law keeping.

Now unbelievably among "Apostolics" there are thoses who teach it is a sin for a man to wear a beard or for a woman to trim her hair! I know, shocking but true. And yet...they take the name "Apostolic" for themselves as if the Apostles taught such trite.

Even more shocking among Apostolics there are those who teach that Jesus Christ came back for his Church 20 centuries ago! So among Apostolics there can be wide variance of doctrine as there can be among those who like "Hebrew Roots".

Now as far as people among them not speaking Hebrew Im sure the majority dont. But I have seen various video's of ones that do and I'm sure would be glad to answer your challenges.

I speak nor read Hebrew or Greek. Come to think of it of all the millions of American Christians who believe the Bible was originally written in Greek what per cent of THEM speak Greek?

I have been around many Bible believers in the last 43 years among various movements and as I think about it I can remember ONE MAN who was taking Greek in school. Not that he was fluent in it but he was learning.

So what does that prove? Since out of possibly thousands of believers I have talked to personally I dont know one who could say they were fluent in Greek? Does it prove Greek is not the original language or that anyone would be in error for being interested in it?

So I dont consider myself a Hebrew Roots believer. I have interest in the Hebrew roots because ALMOST the entire Old Testament was given in Hebrew! So if one said they had NO INTEREST in Hebrew Roots they are saying they have no interest in the greater part of the Bible.

There are no doubt many false believers among Hebrew Roots people. Agreed. Yet I can say from experience there are many false "Apostolic" believers.

:happydance

I am rereading this thread.

I thought I understood this Hebrew Roots movement (in the context of what Lee Stone King preaches) but really did not. I admit they are not the same. I remember Lee getting all excited about Yamahas and pray shawls.

I did a word search on this and I was amazed! What can you do with the Hellenized Jesus?

[RachelRose]

At 30:16 is where he starts really going down hill.

Supposedly a Pentecostal Pastor who converts to Rabbinical Judaism.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dn4sy72MjEE&ab_channel=KiruvMedia

Evang you are right; after 30 it goes bad.

Something that struck me was the fear he came under. I get finding a deeper understanding of G-d but why does it all sounding like the latest fad? He did so much with his life.

Something else that bothered me was he approached this revelation from a Trinitarian belief system. He also mentioned the seven laws. From what I have read is all you need are those.

He did not mention anything supernatural. This is really complex. So much to sort out. Does this guy sacrifice animals???

[RachelRose]

I also read the comments on YouTube. Two really stick out for me:

1) when his original church hit around 500 he should have already been seeking God as what to do.

2) the deeper he got into HR the more he would speak and have the same hand motions. It calls to mind that old movie "The Blues Brother." He looks sort of like a Hasidic Diamond Merchant.