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View Full Version : "an uncommon seed for an uncommon harvest" What is the un-common seed?


COOPER
07-06-2007, 08:29 AM
What is it?

Felicity
07-06-2007, 08:31 AM
Thanks for asking this question Coop. I've been wondering myself.

Ferd
07-06-2007, 08:43 AM
has anyone listened to the sermon to find out?

COOPER
07-06-2007, 08:44 AM
has anyone listened to the sermon to find out?

Is there a link?

Felicity
07-06-2007, 08:44 AM
has anyone listened to the sermon to find out?I got to hear part of the message but the phrase under question was made by someone speaking prophetically, not by the one doing the preaching.

Ferd
07-06-2007, 08:46 AM
I got to hear part of the message but the phrase under question was made by someone speaking prophetically, not by the one doing the preaching.

it would be nice to have a transcript.

Sandra
07-06-2007, 09:46 AM
What is it?

I have sowed uncommon seed before. TRY IT!

It is a seed you have never sowed before.

ALVIN
07-06-2007, 09:57 AM
http://www.insptoday.com/images/content/pagebuilder/MikeMurdock.jpg

Live The Life You've Always Dreamed!

with David & Barbara Cerullo and Mike Murdock

The lives of multiplied thousands are being miraculously touched by Godís blessing as they respond to the voice of the Holy Spirit through our television special "Live The Life You've Always Dreamed."

Scripture is full of Godís promises to His people who choose to walk in a Covenant Relationship with Him. When we release the Seed in our hand, God releases the Harvest in His hand!

As viewers commit to Sowing an Uncommon Seed into the ministry outreaches of Inspiration Ministries International, we have seen miracle after miracle in their finances, health, and relationships.

Do YOU need a miracle in your life? Then join us for this monthís airing of "Live The Life You've Always Dreamed," because God has a miracle in store for YOU!

ALVIN
07-06-2007, 10:00 AM
If you have made a commitment to Sow an Uncommon financial Seed of $58 per month for 12 months into the Ministry Outreaches of The Inspiration Networks, click here. Remember that when you release the Uncommon Seed in your hand, God releases the Uncommon Harvest in HIS hand. And not only will you be blessed as you Reap Godís Harvests in this life, but you will be blessed for all eternity as your Seed is used to evangelize the Lost and disciple Believers worldwide. Sow your Uncommon $58 Seed today!

ALVIN
07-06-2007, 10:03 AM
Donate Now

Be a vital part of what God is doing during this uncommon season! As you sow your uncommon seed today, watch what God does. My staff and I want to join in agreement with you for the three-miracle harvest of a strife-free home, a river of healing and health, and financial favor.

__ I have been watching Pastor Benny and Dr. Mike Murdock on World Harvest TV.

ALVIN
07-06-2007, 10:06 AM
http://www.breakthrough.net/Onlinestore/ProdImages/CD396_thumb.jpg

Uncommon Seed Uncommon Harvest CD

When an uncommon seed comes into contact with God's miracle-working soil an explosion of miraculous provision occurs!

Our Price: $10.00

SDG
07-06-2007, 10:08 AM
http://www.breakthrough.net/Onlinestore/ProdImages/CD396_thumb.jpg

Uncommon Seed Uncommon Harvest CD

When an uncommon seed comes into contact with God's miracle-working soil an explosion of miraculous provision occurs!

Our Price: $10.00

These words are from Parsley ... very interesting.

ALVIN
07-06-2007, 10:11 AM
Mike Murdock, Benny Hinn, and Rod Parsley got it first.

The Louisiana District is finally catching up.

If the UPC would allow television they could have had this revelation a long time ago.:killinme

ManOfWord
07-06-2007, 10:16 AM
http://www.insptoday.com/images/content/pagebuilder/MikeMurdock.jpg

Live The Life You've Always Dreamed!

with David & Barbara Cerullo and Mike Murdock

The lives of multiplied thousands are being miraculously touched by God’s blessing as they respond to the voice of the Holy Spirit through our television special "Live The Life You've Always Dreamed."

Scripture is full of God’s promises to His people who choose to walk in a Covenant Relationship with Him. When we release the Seed in our hand, God releases the Harvest in His hand!

As viewers commit to Sowing an Uncommon Seed into the ministry outreaches of Inspiration Ministries International, we have seen miracle after miracle in their finances, health, and relationships.

Do YOU need a miracle in your life? Then join us for this month’s airing of "Live The Life You've Always Dreamed," because God has a miracle in store for YOU!

I think what this means when translated is:

"I'll live the life YOU'VE always dreamed because YOU'RE going to sow an uncommon seed into MY ministry!"



I certainly believe in sowing and giving and have done it for decades. God has blessed my family abundantly. Personally, I don't believe, nor have I experienced, the idea that some "soil" (ministry) is more fertile than another. I believe that is extremely self serving to those who state that. God knows what we give, how we give and if we give out of a joyful heart or just to receive "the life we've always dreamed."

The life you've always dreamed does NOT come from giving a "huckster" money! It does come from hard, honest work and caring about the needs of others. It comes from making wise financial choices. It infuriates me to no end and makes me sick when I hear the old "God will make you rich...give me your money" routine.

If you're going to give, do it because it is the right thing to do, not because you're pulling the religious "slot machine" handle one more time waiting to get the "pay out" you've always dreamed of!!!





(wonder how I really fell about this hogwash?)

Sandra
07-06-2007, 10:19 AM
http://www.breakthrough.net/Onlinestore/ProdImages/CD396_thumb.jpg

Uncommon Seed Uncommon Harvest CD

When an uncommon seed comes into contact with God's miracle-working soil an explosion of miraculous provision occurs!

Our Price: $10.00
I've not read this book, but I know that when I give an uncommon gift I always receive a miraculous harvest.
This is something I was never taught growing up, I just dropped whatever in the bucket.
Some of you laugh and make fun of this whole thing , you should try it. It has been proven time and time again in our lives.

Sandra
07-06-2007, 10:22 AM
I think what this means when translated is:

"I'll live the life YOU'VE always dreamed because YOU'RE going to sow an uncommon seed into MY ministry!"



I certainly believe in sowing and giving and have done it for decades. God has blessed my family abundantly. Personally, I don't believe, nor have I experienced, the idea that some "soil" (ministry) is more fertile than another. I believe that is extremely self serving to those who state that. God knows what we give, how we give and if we give out of a joyful heart or just to receive "the life we've always dreamed."

The life you've always dreamed does NOT come from giving a "huckster" money! It does come from hard, honest work and caring about the needs of others. It comes from making wise financial choices. It infuriates me to no end and makes me sick when I hear the old "God will make you rich...give me your money" routine.

If you're going to give, do it because it is the right thing to do, not because you pulling the religious "slot machine" handle one more time waiting to get the "pay out" you've always dreamed of!!!





(wonder how I really fell about this hogwash?)

What you are doing is looking at the person, I give as unto the Lord.
Do some misuse this, I am sure they do.
But this will not Stop me from sowing uncommon seed.
It has proven time and time again in my life and new destiny for children.

Ronzo
07-06-2007, 10:30 AM
I've not read this book, but I know that when I give an uncommon gift I always receive a miraculous harvest.
This is something I was never taught growing up, I just dropped whatever in the bucket.
Some of you laugh and make fun of this whole thing , you should try it. It has been proven time and time again in our lives.


Define "Uncommon Seed/Gift".

StillStanding
07-06-2007, 10:31 AM
I think what this means when translated is:

"I'll live the life YOU'VE always dreamed because YOU'RE going to sow an uncommon seed into MY ministry!"



I certainly believe in sowing and giving and have done it for decades. God has blessed my family abundantly. Personally, I don't believe, nor have I experienced, the idea that some "soil" (ministry) is more fertile than another. I believe that is extremely self serving to those who state that. God knows what we give, how we give and if we give out of a joyful heart or just to receive "the life we've always dreamed."

The life you've always dreamed does NOT come from giving a "huckster" money! It does come from hard, honest work and caring about the needs of others. It comes from making wise financial choices. It infuriates me to no end and makes me sick when I hear the old "God will make you rich...give me your money" routine.

If you're going to give, do it because it is the right thing to do, not because you're pulling the religious "slot machine" handle one more time waiting to get the "pay out" you've always dreamed of!!!





(wonder how I really fell about this hogwash?)

I have never, and will never give to a TV preacher! I have given to uncommon needs within my local church and community.

I agree with MOW about some of the hogwash!

ManOfWord
07-06-2007, 10:31 AM
What you are doing is looking at the person, I give as unto the Lord.
Do some misuse this, I am sure they do.
But this will not Stop me from sowing uncommon seed.
It has proven time and time again in my life and new destiny for children.

I absolutely DO look at the person who is asking for my money. If I don't trust them, they don't get a dime.

I have many times sown an "uncommon" seed. If I believe in the ministry or person then I give. I give from my heart and out of a need.

If fact, I have given to New Destiny because I believe in it and you! Have I been blessed because of giving to ND? I'm sure I have! I'm just blessed knowing I helped some kids. I just don't try to keep track of a return on investment.

Sandra
07-06-2007, 10:33 AM
I have never, and will never give to a TV preacher! I have given to uncommon needs within my local church and community.

I agree with MOW about some of the hogwash!

You may think its hogwash, but I didn't get this uncommon seed thing from television.
I will not be told how many dollar and cents to give by a TV preacher.
I am saying giving an uncommon seed works, it has worked in my life.
Just my testimony.

Sandra
07-06-2007, 10:34 AM
I absolutely DO look at the person who is asking for my money. If I don't trust them, they don't get a dime.

I have many times sown an "uncommon" seed. If I believe in the ministry or person then I give. I give from my heart and out of a need.

If fact, I have given to New Destiny because I believe in it and you! Have I been blessed because of giving to ND? I'm sure I have! I'm just blessed knowing I helped some kids. I just don't try to keep track of a return on investment.

I have never been manipilated by a TV preacher, I am just saying that giving an uncommmon seed has worked in my life.

Ronzo
07-06-2007, 10:36 AM
I am saying giving an uncommon seed works, it has worked in my life.


"Giving to receive" is not giving. It's manipulation. "I'm giving, God, so I expect something back!"

No... that does not work. That's giving for the wrong reason...


Giving simply to give is the right way... give simply because there's a need and you want to help fill it. No expectation of personal return on your 'investment'.

ManOfWord
07-06-2007, 10:37 AM
I have never been manipilated by a TV preacher, I am just saying that giving an uncommmon seed has worked in my life.

I haven't either, but there are untold thousands, and maybe millions who have been manipulated and stolen from!!!!


I believe in liberal (uncommon) giving and God has NEVER failed to bless my family and take care of us in our liberality.

tbpew
07-06-2007, 10:59 AM
I hope this thread gives the OTHER thread that spawned it an important perspective to be considered.

A person who is generally accepted as seeking to move in God's gifting of a word of prophesy, who, when praying in preparation for receiving an offering, is inspired to evoke the phraseology of "uncommon seed for an uncommon harvest" is unmistakeably identifying with the teaching of Murdock and Parsley.

warrior
07-06-2007, 11:49 AM
Sounds like a ploy to get you to give more money. That is what it has been every time I heard a sermon attached to those words.

1. You can't buy the blessings of God.

2. God requires tithes and offerings. Tithes are 10% and an offering is between you and what God instructs to you. If someone is saying something else, most times I turn them off. People are all about trying to get you to fill their pockets. I have fallen prey to this in my early years of salvation and don't plan on doing it again.

SDG
07-06-2007, 12:06 PM
I hope this thread gives the OTHER thread that spawned it an important perspective to be considered.

A person who is generally accepted as seeking to move in God's gifting of a word of prophesy, who, when praying in preparation for receiving an offering, is inspired to evoke the phraseology of "uncommon seed for an uncommon harvest" is unmistakeably identifying with the teaching of Murdock and Parsley.

Did not know this was prior to the offering ... makes one ponder.

Cotton Mather
07-06-2007, 12:18 PM
I hope this thread gives the OTHER thread that spawned it an important perspective to be considered.

A person who is generally accepted as seeking to move in God's gifting of a word of prophesy, who, when praying in preparation for receiving an offering, is inspired to evoke the phraseology of "uncommon seed for an uncommon harvest" is unmistakeably identifying with the teaching of Murdock and Parsley.

Did not know this was prior to the offering ... makes one ponder.


Pardon me, but I pointed out this very thing in the opening posts of that thread. This is typical Charismatic lingo. We do not give to be blessed, although we will be. We give because we are blessed, and because it is our reasonable service. This includes all aspects of giving - not just money.

SDG
07-06-2007, 12:22 PM
Pardon me, but I pointed out this very thing in the opening posts of that thread. This is typical Charismatic lingo. We do not give to be blessed, although we will be. We give because we are blessed, and because it is our reasonable service. This includes all aspects of giving - not just money.

I agree with the spirit of this thread ... just disagree on a finer point ... not all Charismatics are supporters of the prosperity doctrine ... just as not are all Apostolics.

Cotton Mather
07-06-2007, 12:27 PM
I agree with the spirit of this thread ... just disagree on a finer point ... not all Charismatics are supporters of the prosperity doctrine ... just as not are all Apostolics.

Agreed. But this is a damnable doctrine. It motivates saints to give out of selfishness instead of love. It is investment theology. This is not about investment, it is about reward.

SDG
07-06-2007, 12:34 PM
Agreed. But this is a damnable doctrine. It motivates saints to give out of selfishness instead of love. It is investment theology. This is not about investment, it is about reward.

Amen.

Sandra
07-06-2007, 12:50 PM
"Giving to receive" is not giving. It's manipulation. "I'm giving, God, so I expect something back!"

No... that does not work. That's giving for the wrong reason...


Giving simply to give is the right way... give simply because there's a need and you want to help fill it. No expectation of personal return on your 'investment'.

I have never given to receive, I love to give. You don't know me.

The uncommon seed seems to always bring me harvest.

You give like you want and I will do the same.
I know who you are and .... oh well... figures.

tv1a
07-06-2007, 04:01 PM
It's not the doctrine that's damnable. It's the maturity of the christian receiving it that's damnable. You ought to have heard the self proclaimed experts rail on the Prayer of Jabez. A gross misrepresentation by psuedo experts on a wonderful way to live a godly life.

Agreed. But this is a damnable doctrine. It motivates saints to give out of selfishness instead of love. It is investment theology. This is not about investment, it is about reward.

The Swordsman
07-06-2007, 04:14 PM
James 5

1 Go to now, ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you. 2 Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are motheaten. 3 Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days. 4 Behold, the hire of the labourers who have reaped down your fields, which is of you kept back by fraud, crieth: and the cries of them which have reaped are entered into the ears of the Lord of sabaoth. 5 Ye have lived in pleasure on the earth, and been wanton; ye have nourished your hearts, as in a day of slaughter. 6 Ye have condemned and killed the just; and he doth not resist you.

Sandra
07-06-2007, 04:19 PM
I am not a selfish person, but selfish people usually hate to hear anything about giving.

Of course no one on AFF is selfish, just generally speaking. JMO

Ronzo
07-06-2007, 04:19 PM
I have never given to receive, I love to give. You don't know me.

The uncommon seed seems to always bring me harvest.

You give like you want and I will do the same.
I know who you are and .... oh well... figures.
I didn't say you did... and you're making as much of an assumption aabout what I said, as you claim I did about what you said (when I didn't assume ANYTHING about you, nor did I point my finger at YOU).

I am now though...
Pot (you) speaking to the kettle (me), "You're black"


All I did is make a comment based on your comment... I didn't jump on you.

Hoovie
07-06-2007, 04:21 PM
I have never, and will never give to a TV preacher! I have given to uncommon needs within my local church and community.

I agree with MOW about some of the hogwash!

Ditto

Ronzo
07-06-2007, 04:22 PM
I know who you are and .... oh well... figures.
You REALLY don't want to go there, do you?

Trouvere
07-06-2007, 04:34 PM
I am not a selfish person, but selfish people usually hate to hear anything about giving.

Of course no one on AFF is selfish, just generally speaking. JMO

Hey Sandra,
Mike Murdock is from Franklin,La.He grew up attending the Ham St. Pentecostal Church which is AOG.I have alot of friends who have attended there over the years.My childhood friend Myrna Liners dad used to pastor it.They looked UPC
when were were in first grade.I remember them all wearing dresses and having long hair.Funny how small the world really is.

Old Paths
07-06-2007, 05:16 PM
Ho hum.

Nothing new.

Looks like once again the TBN crowd is teaching some of the so called Apostolic profits how to suck SS checks out of old widow women.

Trouvere
07-06-2007, 05:43 PM
Ho hum.

Nothing new.

Looks like once again the TBN crowd is teaching some of the so called Apostolic profits how to suck SS checks out of old widow women.

You are bad:nah a bad hat:tiphat

Scott Hutchinson
07-06-2007, 05:45 PM
Send me a big offering and you will be blessed.It's for a worthy cause I'm worthy and my wife is the cause.Can you say seed-faith ?

Sandra
07-06-2007, 07:08 PM
Hey Sandra,
Mike Murdock is from Franklin,La.He grew up attending the Ham St. Pentecostal Church which is AOG.I have alot of friends who have attended there over the years.My childhood friend Myrna Liners dad used to pastor it.They looked UPC
when were were in first grade.I remember them all wearing dresses and having long hair.Funny how small the world really is.

I really don't know Mike Murdock, I didn't know he was from La.

Sandra
07-06-2007, 07:14 PM
You REALLY don't want to go there, do you?

Really, I was hoping you would never respond to any of my posts, I knew you couldn't resist.
We are asked not to post concerning happenings on the other forums in the past, so I will respect the Admin. here.
If you want to go there, its all yours. Have at it.

Praxeas
07-06-2007, 08:12 PM
What is it?
What did MB say it was? I mean, how can we know? And did the man say anything else but for those 7 words? Should we speculate on something taken out of context?

Praxeas
07-06-2007, 08:25 PM
I hope this thread gives the OTHER thread that spawned it an important perspective to be considered.

A person who is generally accepted as seeking to move in God's gifting of a word of prophesy, who, when praying in preparation for receiving an offering, is inspired to evoke the phraseology of "uncommon seed for an uncommon harvest" is unmistakeably identifying with the teaching of Murdock and Parsley.
Why is it unmistakeably indentifying with them? Im not saying this person did not receive this stuff from someone else but similiarity is not identity. Muslims say "One God" too, but does that mean we identify with them? See that is a logical fallacy. There has to be more than just showing that they've said the same words.

This is the same sort of false arguments anti-Christians like Atheists make by showing similarities between Christianity and other religions prior to Christianity like Mithraism

31. Questionable Cause

DEFINITION: This fallacy has the following general form:
1. A and B are associated on a regular basis.
2. Therefore A is the cause of B.


The general idea behind this fallacy is that it is an error in reasoning to conclude that one thing causes another simply because the two are associated on a regular basis. More formally, this fallacy is committed when it is concluded that A is the cause of B simply because they are associated on a regular basis. The error being made is that a causal conclusion is being drawn from inadequate evidence.


The Questionable Cause Fallacy is actually a general type of fallacy. Any causal fallacy that involves an error in a reasoning due to a failure to adequately investigate the suspected cause is a fallacy of this type. Thus, fallacies like Post Hoc and Confusing Cause and Effect are specific examples of the general Questionable Cause Fallacy.


Causal reasoning can be quite difficult since causation is a rather complex philosophic issue. The complexity of causation is briefly discussed in the context of the specific versions of this fallacy.


The key to avoiding the Questionable Cause fallacy is to take due care in drawing causal conclusions. This requires taking steps to adequately investigate the phenomena in question as well using the proper methods of careful investigation.

Also similar to this
Post hoc ergo propter hoc (after this, therefore because of this). This is the fallacy of assuming that A caused B simply because A happened prior to B. A favorite example: "Most rapists read pornography when they were teenagers; obviously, pornography causes violence toward women." The conclusion is invalid, because there can be a correlation between two phenomena without one causing the other. Often, this is because both phenomena may be linked to the same cause. In the example given, it is possible that some psychological factor -- say, a frustrated sex drive -- might cause both a tendency toward sexual violence and a desire for pornographic material, in which case the pornography would not be the true cause of the violence.
Post hoc ergo propter hoc is nearly identical to cum hoc ergo propter hoc, which you should see for further details.

Ronzo
07-06-2007, 08:45 PM
If you want to go there, its all yours. Have at it.
unbelievable...

Jehoram
07-06-2007, 09:32 PM
unbelievable...

Ronzo, don't sweat it. She's in full diva mode lately. Her user name should just be "EGO". :killinme

stmatthew
07-06-2007, 10:31 PM
I declare to ALL that I am uncommon ground (and a lot of it), and if you sow your uncommon seed (anything above a $20 is uncommon in my wallet) I will promise to be uncommonly good in spending your uncommon seed that you commoners send me.




:D

Neck
07-06-2007, 10:51 PM
What is it?


How about I sow a bag of Clothes into the ministry.

Why will only money bring me back a financial harvest.

Oh, I forgot the clothes will benefit the less fortunate.

The money will buy a new a new car....

I am sick of hearing about money.

With all the messages being preached on sowing.

I am waiting for a saint to grab the video of a sermon.

Then sue the minister for malpractice.

SDG
07-06-2007, 10:52 PM
Why is it unmistakeably indentifying with them? Im not saying this person did not receive this stuff from someone else but similiarity is not identity. Muslims say "One God" too, but does that mean we identify with them? See that is a logical fallacy. There has to be more than just showing that they've said the same words.

This is the same sort of false arguments anti-Christians like Atheists make by showing similarities between Christianity and other religions prior to Christianity like Mithraism

31. Questionable Cause

DEFINITION: This fallacy has the following general form:
1. A and B are associated on a regular basis.
2. Therefore A is the cause of B.


The general idea behind this fallacy is that it is an error in reasoning to conclude that one thing causes another simply because the two are associated on a regular basis. More formally, this fallacy is committed when it is concluded that A is the cause of B simply because they are associated on a regular basis. The error being made is that a causal conclusion is being drawn from inadequate evidence.


The Questionable Cause Fallacy is actually a general type of fallacy. Any causal fallacy that involves an error in a reasoning due to a failure to adequately investigate the suspected cause is a fallacy of this type. Thus, fallacies like Post Hoc and Confusing Cause and Effect are specific examples of the general Questionable Cause Fallacy.


Causal reasoning can be quite difficult since causation is a rather complex philosophic issue. The complexity of causation is briefly discussed in the context of the specific versions of this fallacy.


The key to avoiding the Questionable Cause fallacy is to take due care in drawing causal conclusions. This requires taking steps to adequately investigate the phenomena in question as well using the proper methods of careful investigation.

Also similar to this
Post hoc ergo propter hoc (after this, therefore because of this). This is the fallacy of assuming that A caused B simply because A happened prior to B. A favorite example: "Most rapists read pornography when they were teenagers; obviously, pornography causes violence toward women." The conclusion is invalid, because there can be a correlation between two phenomena without one causing the other. Often, this is because both phenomena may be linked to the same cause. In the example given, it is possible that some psychological factor -- say, a frustrated sex drive -- might cause both a tendency toward sexual violence and a desire for pornographic material, in which case the pornography would not be the true cause of the violence.
Post hoc ergo propter hoc is nearly identical to cum hoc ergo propter hoc, which you should see for further details.

I don't see questionable cause here ... I see a safe assumption/ inference.... the phraseology is not original to MB ... nor.... correct me if I'm wrong... is it biblical terminology. Prax ... we infer everyday.

SISTER Murphy
07-06-2007, 11:11 PM
Define "Uncommon Seed/Gift".

And, well, maybe help us 'simple ones' out with a good scriptural background for this?

Old Paths
07-07-2007, 08:21 AM
And, well, maybe help us 'simple ones' out with a good scriptural background for this?

SCRIPTURE!

Awww come on, SISTER Murphy, what's SCRIPTURE got to do with it.

If it worked for the trinitarian false profit it will work for ___________.

chseeads
07-07-2007, 09:00 AM
The uncommon seed is obviously television advertisement.....I can't believe no one has made that deduction yet... :p

jwharv
07-07-2007, 09:09 AM
http://www.breakthrough.net/Onlinestore/ProdImages/CD396_thumb.jpg

Uncommon Seed Uncommon Harvest CD

When an uncommon seed comes into contact with God's miracle-working soil an explosion of miraculous provision occurs!

Our Price: $10.00


This is what he came up with after his "Revelation of Seed Time and Harvest" quit bringing in the big bucks...........

Pressing-On
07-07-2007, 09:16 AM
And, well, maybe help us 'simple ones' out with a good scriptural background for this?

Have to agree with you on that one! :thumbsup

No wonder so many are involved in lotteries. lol!

tv1a
07-07-2007, 10:41 AM
I'm beginning to think some of the posters have been to the Dan Rather School of Sound Bites. The prosperity doctrine I and many others adhere to does not in anyway represent the misrepresentation characterized in this thread.

There are more scriptures which talk about finances than talk about health. Care to discuss the substances?

It is breathtaking something like man-made standards, which have NO scriptures to support is accepted much easier than scriptures dealing with finanncial success. I would rather deal with scriptural evidence than ancedotal evidence. There is more scripture supporting a prosperity doctrine than supporting a subjective dress code.

Prosperity comes from following established principles. The Bible has principles how to accumulate wealth. John said he wished the saints would prosper and be in good health, as they prospered and maintained a healthy spiritual life. Jesus promised blessings beyond imagination when he said give and it shall be given back to you to the point it would be running over.

God used the prophet to tell God's people to "test" God and see if God would pour out blessings they couldn't contain.

Proverbs is full of principles and when applied will lead to a prosperous life.



How about I sow a bag of Clothes into the ministry.

Why will only money bring me back a financial harvest.

Oh, I forgot the clothes will benefit the less fortunate.

The money will buy a new a new car....

I am sick of hearing about money.

With all the messages being preached on sowing.

I am waiting for a saint to grab the video of a sermon.

Then sue the minister for malpractice.

Pressing-On
07-07-2007, 10:53 AM
I'm beginning to think some of the posters have been to the Dan Rather School of Sound Bites. The prosperity doctrine I and many others adhere to does not in anyway represent the misrepresentation characterized in this thread.

There are more scriptures which talk about finances than talk about health. Care to discuss the substances?

It is breathtaking something like man-made standards, which have NO scriptures to support is accepted much easier than scriptures dealing with finanncial success. I would rather deal with scriptural evidence than ancedotal evidence. There is more scripture supporting a prosperity doctrine than supporting a subjective dress code.

Prosperity comes from following established principles. The Bible has principles how to accumulate wealth. John said he wished the saints would prosper and be in good health, as they prospered and maintained a healthy spiritual life. Jesus promised blessings beyond imagination when he said give and it shall be given back to you to the point it would be running over.

God used the prophet to tell God's people to "test" God and see if God would pour out blessings they couldn't contain.

Proverbs is full of principles and when applied will lead to a prosperous life.
I don't believe that anyone was saying they don't believe in prosperity. The point really is that sometimes God takes you through a time of suffering to build character in you.

What we are instructed, as way of example, in Philippians 4:12-13:

12 - "I know both how to be abased, and I know how to abound: every where and in all things I am instructed both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need.

13 - "I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me."

We are not always going to be prosperous, but we can always be faithful.

The prosperity doctrine leads people to believe that they will never suffer and I think that is the conflict in the teaching, IMO. It reminds me of the Lottery. :D

Praxeas
07-07-2007, 03:12 PM
I don't see questionable cause here ... I see a safe assumption/ inference.... the phraseology is not original to MB ... nor.... correct me if I'm wrong... is it biblical terminology. Prax ... we infer everyday.
I thought it was supposed to be a prophecy...why does the phraseology hae to be original to MB? Does every word that comes forth in a prophecy have to be in the bible somewhere? What about preaching? If someone says one word, one little word, that is not found in your King James Version, does that mean it came from the devil?

Be careful now, because the word bible is not in the bible.

StillStanding
07-07-2007, 03:36 PM
Be careful now, because the word bible is not in the bible.

Yes it is! It's on the cover!! :)

Praxeas
07-07-2007, 03:41 PM
Yes it is! It's on the cover!! :)
lol, oh yeah. I forgot Paul put that there :killinme

StillStanding
07-07-2007, 04:05 PM
lol, oh yeah. I forgot Paul put that there :killinme

Well...every book has a cover! :killinme

Praxeas
07-07-2007, 04:06 PM
Well...every book has a cover! :killinme
"Cover Art Designed by Paul the Apostle" :-)

tv1a
07-07-2007, 08:11 PM
The prosperity doctrine leads people to believe that they will never suffer and I think that is the conflict in the teaching, IMO. It reminds me of the Lottery

The only people I've seen pontificate this doctrine run in ultra conservative circles.

What I've gotten from prosperity doctrine is reliance on God and trusting God will do what he promised.

The common fallacy is that prosperity doctrine does not teach there will not be hard times. Mike Murdock tells the story many times of how he was so broke he couldn't afford furniture for his appartment. Many other prosperity preachers have gone through hard times and have continuously testified of hard times before experiencing breakthrough.

If God's will is for his children to prosper, than it is probable that the christians who are not prospering are not lining up with the God's principles of prosperity.

I don't believe that anyone was saying they don't believe in prosperity. The point really is that sometimes God takes you through a time of suffering to build character in you.

What we are instructed, as way of example, in Philippians 4:12-13:

12 - "I know both how to be abased, and I know how to abound: every where and in all things I am instructed both to be full and to be hungry, both to abound and to suffer need.

13 - "I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me."

We are not always going to be prosperous, but we can always be faithful.

The prosperity doctrine leads people to believe that they will never suffer and I think that is the conflict in the teaching, IMO. It reminds me of the Lottery. :D

Pressing-On
07-07-2007, 09:06 PM
The only people I've seen pontificate this doctrine run in ultra conservative circles.

What I've gotten from prosperity doctrine is reliance on God and trusting God will do what he promised.

The common fallacy is that prosperity doctrine does not teach there will not be hard times. Mike Murdock tells the story many times of how he was so broke he couldn't afford furniture for his appartment. Many other prosperity preachers have gone through hard times and have continuously testified of hard times before experiencing breakthrough.

If God's will is for his children to prosper, than it is probable that the christians who are not prospering are not lining up with the God's principles of prosperity.
In the end to prosper, if that is what you are saying. What about Joseph? He didn't always prosper and that is my point.

The Prosperity Doctrine, for most people, is not in balance with the scripture.

I'm sure MM tells a great story. I'm not speaking about or against the man.

I'm just saying, from the same experience as MM, that I have not always prospered, but I knew I was in the will of God and that all things would work together. If you agree with this, than we have no argument.

The Prosperity Doctrine, IMO, overrides the scripture I quoted in Philippians saying - "I know BOTH how to be abased I know how to abound..."

Give, Give, Give and you will be blessed. I've been in a place where I gave money, time, energy and got nothing in return except food on my table while everyone around me was being blessed financially. I cried out to God and He gave me this scripture in Psalm 73:

2-5 "But as for me, my feet were almost gone; my steps had well nigh slipped. For I was envious at the foolish, when I saw the prosperity of the wicked. For there are no bands in their death: but their strength is firm. They are not in trouble as other men; neither are they plagued like other men...

21-26 "Thus my heart was grieved, and I was pricked in my reins. So foolish was I, and ignorant: I was as a beast before thee. Nevertheless I am continually with thee: thou hast holden me by my right hand. Thou shalt guide me with thy counsel, and afterward receive me to glory. Whom have I in heaven but thee? and there is none upon earth that I desire beside thee. My flesh and my heart faileth: but God is the strength of my heart, and my portion for ever...."

For that time in my life that scripture applied.

So, yes, I am prospering, but at one time I didn't know if I would ever see it, much like Daniel in the Lions Den, Joseph in Prison, and Job in suffering.

He does want to 'enlarge our tents', so to speak, but sometimes you start out with an empty hand and you have to purpose in your heart that you will be faithful regardless - then He can prosper you. Sometimes He does it anyway, but I'd prefer to have the issue settled in my heart before He did. :D

I am just saying that if someone is preaching that you will prosper and not telling you a balance in walking by faith alone, which is a road we will all trod at one time or another - than I am against the teaching.

tv1a
07-07-2007, 09:40 PM
I agree with almost all of your post. I think Joseph prosepered at every level he was at. He found favor with his father, Potiphar, the jailer, and ultimately Pharoah. Temporary setbacks do not always equate the lack of prosperity. Joseph had to let go of family ties to get to Egypt. Joseph had to let go of success at Potiphar's house to be second in command at the prison. Joseph had to let go of the prison keys to get Pharoah's ring.

I am in the same boat you are. I haven't always 'financially' prospered. Still working on that one. But I have been taking steps to ensure I follow Biblical principles for prosperity.

The way I interpret Prosperity doctrine is even if God takes everything I have away, I can follow God's principles and eventually everything will work out.

I know there are a few hacks out there who abuse prosperity doctrine. I know one guy who used the prayer of Jabez to pray for a new computer. I do find it tough to swallow the tbn style telethons and the district national fundraisers where they give scripture to suggest God wants people to give offbeat amounts of money, like $23 here, $57 there. I don't buy all that stuff. I do buy the fact of listening to God in my sacrifical giving. I buy the fact there are blessings in paying my tithes and offerings.

My definition of prosperity isn't always forking over cash. My definition of prosperity is to use God's blessings to me as a tool to minister to others. Time, money, possessions. Everything I have is dedicated to God. God gave me a van at a real low price to take people to church. The other day my wife and I used the van to help an elderly man in our church move into a new house.

Prosperity is a relative term. There will always be someone richer than us. We may hate to think this, but there will always be people poorer than us.

Good post PO. I enjoy the dialog.

In the end to prosper, if that is what you are saying. What about Joseph? He didn't always prosper and that is my point.

The Prosperity Doctrine, for most people, is not in balance with the scripture.

I'm sure MM tells a great story. I'm not speaking about or against the man.

I'm just saying, from the same experience as MM, that I have not always prospered, but I knew I was in the will of God and that all things would work together. If you agree with this, than we have no argument.

The Prosperity Doctrine, IMO, overrides the scripture I quoted in Philippians saying - "I know BOTH how to be abased I know how to abound..."

Give, Give, Give and you will be blessed. I've been in a place where I gave money, time, energy and got nothing in return except food on my table while everyone around me was being blessed financially. I cried out to God and He gave me this scripture in Psalm 73:

2-5 "But as for me, my feet were almost gone; my steps had well nigh slipped. For I was envious at the foolish, when I saw the prosperity of the wicked. For there are no bands in their death: but their strength is firm. They are not in trouble as other men; neither are they plagued like other men...

21-26 "Thus my heart was grieved, and I was pricked in my reins. So foolish was I, and ignorant: I was as a beast before thee. Nevertheless I am continually with thee: thou hast holden me by my right hand. Thou shalt guide me with thy counsel, and afterward receive me to glory. Whom have I in heaven but thee? and there is none upon earth that I desire beside thee. My flesh and my heart faileth: but God is the strength of my heart, and my portion for ever...."

For that time in my life that scripture applied.

So, yes, I am prospering, but at one time I didn't know if I would ever see it, much like Daniel in the Lions Den, Joseph in Prison, and Job in suffering.

He does want to 'enlarge our tents', so to speak, but sometimes you start out with an empty hand and you have to purpose in your heart that you will be faithful regardless - then He can prosper you. Sometimes He does it anyway, but I'd prefer to have the issue settled in my heart before He did. :D

I am just saying that if someone is preaching that you will prosper and not telling you a balance in walking by faith alone, which is a road we will all trod at one time or another - than I am against the teaching.

Pressing-On
07-07-2007, 10:12 PM
I agree with almost all of your post. I think Joseph prosepered at every level he was at. He found favor with his father, Potiphar, the jailer, and ultimately Pharoah. Temporary setbacks do not always equate the lack of prosperity. Joseph had to let go of family ties to get to Egypt. Joseph had to let go of success at Potiphar's house to be second in command at the prison. Joseph had to let go of the prison keys to get Pharoah's ring.

I am in the same boat you are. I haven't always 'financially' prospered. Still working on that one. But I have been taking steps to ensure I follow Biblical principles for prosperity.

The way I interpret Prosperity doctrine is even if God takes everything I have away, I can follow God's principles and eventually everything will work out.

I know there are a few hacks out there who abuse prosperity doctrine. I know one guy who used the prayer of Jabez to pray for a new computer. I do find it tough to swallow the tbn style telethons and the district national fundraisers where they give scripture to suggest God wants people to give offbeat amounts of money, like $23 here, $57 there. I don't buy all that stuff. I do buy the fact of listening to God in my sacrifical giving. I buy the fact there are blessings in paying my tithes and offerings.

My definition of prosperity isn't always forking over cash. My definition of prosperity is to use God's blessings to me as a tool to minister to others. Time, money, possessions. Everything I have is dedicated to God. God gave me a van at a real low price to take people to church. The other day my wife and I used the van to help an elderly man in our church move into a new house.

Prosperity is a relative term. There will always be someone richer than us. We may hate to think this, but there will always be people poorer than us.

Good post PO. I enjoy the dialog.
I guess I'm a little hard on the prosperity doctrine for obvious reasons.

The Lord woke me up in the middle of the night, some years ago, and told me to quit my job. I had an excellent sales job. $1,200 per month, $500 car allowance and 50% commission. I cut Him off in prayer a few times before that. Stone cold, cut it off! :killinme

Well, the whole bottom fell out for us for a number of years after I finally obeyed. We went through more church trials - Lord - and it isn't fun when you are having financial trouble too!

We gave in offerings, tithed and struggled. Sometimes it just seemed so unfair. But on my knees I was righted again!

We are not in that financial situation anymore, but it was very hard. I felt very stupid and poor having had such a nice job and home. I suppose it was a pride issue to boot.

Anyway, when I hear "prosperity doctrine" it just doesn't seem to reach out and balance the whole out. It seems to speak of financial blessing as a certainty, when I know good and well it doesn't always go that way. You can give and give and suffer and suffer and none of it makes any sense, at times.

I believe every child of God, like Joseph, will prosper in areas, but the prosperity doctrine, IMO, only embraces the guaranteed financial blessing and that is what I am against.

I was paying bills yesterday and thinking of the times when I couldn't pay them all with one check. God has been good. I learned BOTH how to be abased and how to abound.....

SISTER Murphy
07-08-2007, 12:07 AM
SCRIPTURE!

Awww come on, SISTER Murphy, what's SCRIPTURE got to do with it.

If it worked for the trinitarian false profit it will work for ___________.

Yer right, Elder, how silly I am to ask for scripture when somebody somewhere says it works! Where is my faith, anyway? Thank you, thank you so much for saving me from going down that old path of checking the Word of God. :nah :killinme

SISTER Murphy
07-08-2007, 12:11 AM
Have to agree with you on that one! :thumbsup

No wonder so many are involved in lotteries. lol!

Could be. I can just hear it now:

Pastor So And So, me and my husband need a little help from the church to pay our rent this month. We just felt so strong that we needed to buy one hundred MegaBucks tickets today, 'cause its 07-07-07, and somebody said 7 is God's perfect number, so that makes it really lucky, and we just were sure that we would win 'cause we prayed over those tickets (and my husband called his charismatic cousin and she said she felt a witness in the spirit, too), so we was sure we would win, and then we could bless the church with a big offering!! Well, somebody must have had doubt somewheres, 'cause we didn't win a single dollar, and we used our rent money to buy them tickets. Can you help us out?

SISTER Murphy
07-08-2007, 12:15 AM
I agree with almost all of your post. I think Joseph prosepered at every level he was at. He found favor with his father, Potiphar, the jailer, and ultimately Pharoah. Temporary setbacks do not always equate the lack of prosperity. Joseph had to let go of family ties to get to Egypt. Joseph had to let go of success at Potiphar's house to be second in command at the prison. Joseph had to let go of the prison keys to get Pharoah's ring.

I am in the same boat you are. I haven't always 'financially' prospered. Still working on that one. But I have been taking steps to ensure I follow Biblical principles for prosperity.

The way I interpret Prosperity doctrine is even if God takes everything I have away, I can follow God's principles and eventually everything will work out.

I know there are a few hacks out there who abuse prosperity doctrine. I know one guy who used the prayer of Jabez to pray for a new computer. I do find it tough to swallow the tbn style telethons and the district national fundraisers where they give scripture to suggest God wants people to give offbeat amounts of money, like $23 here, $57 there. I don't buy all that stuff. I do buy the fact of listening to God in my sacrifical giving. I buy the fact there are blessings in paying my tithes and offerings.

My definition of prosperity isn't always forking over cash. My definition of prosperity is to use God's blessings to me as a tool to minister to others. Time, money, possessions. Everything I have is dedicated to God. God gave me a van at a real low price to take people to church. The other day my wife and I used the van to help an elderly man in our church move into a new house.

Prosperity is a relative term. There will always be someone richer than us. We may hate to think this, but there will always be people poorer than us.

Good post PO. I enjoy the dialog.

Joseph had to 'let go' of his father's house? He didn't get to make the choice! Joseph had to 'let go' of success at Potiphar's house? Puleeze! That 'choice' was made for him by a wicked lying woman! Joseph had to 'let go' of the prison keys to get Pharoah's ring? Come now, what bible story book have you been reading lately? All of these things were situations in which Joseph had no control, none, zero, zip, nada.

tv1a
07-08-2007, 04:15 AM
Joseph made the choice not to do the whatuzzi with Potiphar's wife. That set into motion the next phase of his life. Joseph interpreted the dreams of the butler and the baker. He asked one of them to put in a good word for him at the palace.

God won't move a person to the next level unless they want to move. If he did, the Children of Israel wouldn't have wondered in the wilderness for 40 years waiting for the unbelievers to die off.

The Bible is full of examples of people letting go the good in order to have the great. Sometimes getting to the great takes more than one step.

Joseph had to 'let go' of his father's house? He didn't get to make the choice! Joseph had to 'let go' of success at Potiphar's house? Puleeze! That 'choice' was made for him by a wicked lying woman! Joseph had to 'let go' of the prison keys to get Pharoah's ring? Come now, what bible story book have you been reading lately? All of these things were situations in which Joseph had no control, none, zero, zip, nada.

tv1a
07-08-2007, 04:20 AM
There has been scriptural evidence provided. I've provided a few scritpures for thought. Thanks for ignoring that fact.

It is not suprising a person doesn't get the Biblical principle of prosperity right when they misapply the Biblical principle of holiness.

Yer right, Elder, how silly I am to ask for scripture when somebody somewhere says it works! Where is my faith, anyway? Thank you, thank you so much for saving me from going down that old path of checking the Word of God. :nah :killinme

tv1a
07-08-2007, 04:32 AM
You bring up a point that most christians miss with the prosperity doctrine. Paul says to be content no matter what state we are in. That doesn't mean we accept our lot in lives as to be in that situation forever. That means we are content at that level and are working to get the next level where God wants us. I am content at the level I'm current at but there is no way I'm staying at this level. God has promised too much for me to be at this level much longer.

I guess I'm a little hard on the prosperity doctrine for obvious reasons.

The Lord woke me up in the middle of the night, some years ago, and told me to quit my job. I had an excellent sales job. $1,200 per month, $500 car allowance and 50% commission. I cut Him off in prayer a few times before that. Stone cold, cut it off! :killinme

Well, the whole bottom fell out for us for a number of years after I finally obeyed. We went through more church trials - Lord - and it isn't fun when you are having financial trouble too!

We gave in offerings, tithed and struggled. Sometimes it just seemed so unfair. But on my knees I was righted again!

We are not in that financial situation anymore, but it was very hard. I felt very stupid and poor having had such a nice job and home. I suppose it was a pride issue to boot.

Anyway, when I hear "prosperity doctrine" it just doesn't seem to reach out and balance the whole out. It seems to speak of financial blessing as a certainty, when I know good and well it doesn't always go that way. You can give and give and suffer and suffer and none of it makes any sense, at times.

I believe every child of God, like Joseph, will prosper in areas, but the prosperity doctrine, IMO, only embraces the guaranteed financial blessing and that is what I am against.

I was paying bills yesterday and thinking of the times when I couldn't pay them all with one check. God has been good. I learned BOTH how to be abased and how to abound.....

tv1a
07-08-2007, 04:53 AM
I agree with your assessment.

Could be. I can just hear it now:

Pastor So And So, me and my husband need a little help from the church to pay our rent this month. We just felt so strong that we needed to buy one hundred MegaBucks tickets today, 'cause its 07-07-07, and somebody said 7 is God's perfect number, so that makes it really lucky, and we just were sure that we would win 'cause we prayed over those tickets (and my husband called his charismatic cousin and she said she felt a witness in the spirit, too), so we was sure we would win, and then we could bless the church with a big offering!! Well, somebody must have had doubt somewheres, 'cause we didn't win a single dollar, and we used our rent money to buy them tickets. Can you help us out?

Pressing-On
07-08-2007, 06:16 AM
Could be. I can just hear it now:

Pastor So And So, me and my husband need a little help from the church to pay our rent this month. We just felt so strong that we needed to buy one hundred MegaBucks tickets today, 'cause its 07-07-07, and somebody said 7 is God's perfect number, so that makes it really lucky, and we just were sure that we would win 'cause we prayed over those tickets (and my husband called his charismatic cousin and she said she felt a witness in the spirit, too), so we was sure we would win, and then we could bless the church with a big offering!! Well, somebody must have had doubt somewheres, 'cause we didn't win a single dollar, and we used our rent money to buy them tickets. Can you help us out?

I'm sure that happens. :killinme

Pressing-On
07-08-2007, 06:20 AM
Joseph had to 'let go' of his father's house? He didn't get to make the choice! Joseph had to 'let go' of success at Potiphar's house? Puleeze! That 'choice' was made for him by a wicked lying woman! Joseph had to 'let go' of the prison keys to get Pharoah's ring? Come now, what bible story book have you been reading lately? All of these things were situations in which Joseph had no control, none, zero, zip, nada.
I think tv1a's point was that Joseph was being blessed every step of the way - even in his suffering and testing. The "no weapon formed against thee shall prosper...."

My point was that I agree Joseph was being blessed, even in prison, but I don't think the typical Prosperity Doctrine teaches that. It seems to only reflect on monetary gain.

Pressing-On
07-08-2007, 06:28 AM
You bring up a point that most christians miss with the prosperity doctrine. Paul says to be content no matter what state we are in. That doesn't mean we accept our lot in lives as to be in that situation forever. That means we are content at that level and are working to get the next level where God wants us. I am content at the level I'm current at but there is no way I'm staying at this level. God has promised too much for me to be at this level much longer.

Now that's bringing the discussion to the base point - You bring up a point that most christians miss with the prosperity doctrine. Paul says to be content no matter what state we are in. That would be my pet peeve with the whole prosperity deal.

I'm not sure I agree with the working to get to the next level because I know just being faithful brought me to that level. That's all the work I did. lol

In the middle of our financial struggle I tried to pick up some sales work along the way. Nothing would gel for me. I remember kneeling at the bed, briefcase in front of me. I said, "God, you need to open some doors for me. I'm not making this work."

He said, "You trust the world more to take care of you than you do me."

I said, "Okay. I quit."

I shut and locked the briefcase and slid it under the bed. More struggle and more trust. I didn't work on that. I had no choice, but to trust Him and be faithful.

I believe He has a divine appointment for every life and we can't look around comparing ourselves with others. We need to allow Him to work, trust Him and let Him bring us to each level. Being faithful allows it to happen.

Sheltiedad
07-08-2007, 07:14 AM
I don't think it affects your personal financial situation whether you give money or not (at the heart of this is superstition) ... your financial success in life is because of two factors...

1. The decisions you make.

2. A bit of luck (or being in the right place at the right time). Number 1 is always important.... number 2 can positively or negatively affect a decision that was already good/bad in the first place.

tbpew
07-08-2007, 08:05 AM
If authored by God, any category we prosper in pertaining to this world will be AS OUR SOUL prospers. Joseph's soul prospered and THEN his life circumstances were prospered.

Our fellowship with the giver of every good gift will establish our ability to have the wisdom and understanding to move in the ways that will prosper us.

IMO, an "uncommon seed" is all about getting the hearer to buy into the idea that if I give money to whatever the specific speaker is telling me, I will reap a harvest of the same stuff I have sown....MONEY!

We MUST KNOW the "wise builder" whose voice we are following; a man's or God's.

Sandra
07-08-2007, 09:16 AM
Any financial blessings that I have received in my life has nothing to do with luck, I give all glory to God.

Theophilus
07-08-2007, 09:17 AM
I'm on my way, I'm making it
I've got to make it show, yeah
so much larger than life
I'M going to watch it growing

the place where I come from is a small town
they think so small
they use small words
-but not me
I'm smarter than that
I worked it out
I've been stretching my mouth
to let those big words come right out

I've had enough, I'm getting out
to the city, the big big city
I'll be a big noise with all the big boys
there's so much stuff I will own
and I will pray to a big god
as I kneel in the big church

big time
I'm on my way-I'm making it
big time big time
I've got to make it show yeah
big time big time
so much larger than life
big time
I'm going to watch it growing
big time

my parties all have big names
and I greet them with the widest smile
tell them how my life is one big adventure
and always they're amazed
when I show them round my house, to my bed
I had it made like a mountain range
with a snow-white pillow for my big fat head
and my heaven will be a big heaven
and I will walk through the front door

big time
I'm on my way-I'm making it
big time big time
I've got to make it show-yeah
big time big time
so much larger than life
I'm going to watch it growing
big time big time
my car is getting bigger
big time
my house is getting bigger
big time
my eyes are getting bigger
big time
and my mouth
big time
my belly is getting bigger
big time
and my bank account
big time
look at my circumstance
big time
and the bulge in my big big big big big big big

Pressing-On
07-08-2007, 01:14 PM
If authored by God, any category we prosper in pertaining to this world will be AS OUR SOUL prospers. Joseph's soul prospered and THEN his life circumstances were prospered.

Our fellowship with the giver of every good gift will establish our ability to have the wisdom and understanding to move in the ways that will prosper us.

IMO, an "uncommon seed" is all about getting the hearer to buy into the idea that if I give money to whatever the specific speaker is telling me, I will reap a harvest of the same stuff I have sown....MONEY!

We MUST KNOW the "wise builder" whose voice we are following; a man's or God's.
Good post, tbpew! I love the emboldened!!!

SISTER Murphy
07-08-2007, 10:36 PM
Joseph made the choice not to do the whatuzzi with Potiphar's wife. That set into motion the next phase of his life. Joseph interpreted the dreams of the butler and the baker. He asked one of them to put in a good word for him at the palace.

God won't move a person to the next level unless they want to move. If he did, the Children of Israel wouldn't have wondered in the wilderness for 40 years waiting for the unbelievers to die off.

The Bible is full of examples of people letting go the good in order to have the great. Sometimes getting to the great takes more than one step.


Without a doubt, but the story of Joseph is not one of those. His is the story of God taking what others meant for evil and turning it for good (at least, that's what the BIBLE says about it.)

SISTER Murphy
07-08-2007, 10:56 PM
There has been scriptural evidence provided. I've provided a few scritpures for thought. Thanks for ignoring that fact.

It is not suprising a person doesn't get the Biblical principle of prosperity right when they misapply the Biblical principle of holiness.

Boy, what a narrow little box you live in! But, as you said, "it is not surprising a person doesn't get" the Biblical principles of holiness when they've been following improper teachings of scripture, ie, the 'prosperity gospel'. Sorry, friend, but the problem with the 'prosperity gospel', at least, in all the folks I have heard proclaim it, is that it is prosperity that is sough and glorified. This is foundationally wrong, for we are to be seeking to have a relationship with our Saviour. Then, whatever that relationship brings, trials, troubles, prosperity, blessings... we have the proper understanding that what is of true value is that relationship with Jesus.

Scripture? Yes, I have provided a lot, and I will provide more:

Psalm 49:6-7
They that trust in their wealth, and boast themselves in the multitude of their riches;
None of them can by any means redeem his brother, nor give to God a ransom for him:

Psalm 62:7-11
In God is my salvation and my glory: the rock of my strength, and my refuge, is in God.
Trust in him at all times; ye people, pour out your heart before him: God is a refuge for us. Selah.
Surely men of low degree are vanity, and men of high degree are a lie: to be laid in the balance, they are altogether lighter than vanity.
Trust not in oppression, and become not vain in robbery: if riches increase, set not your heart upon them.
God hath spoken once; twice have I heard this; that power belongeth unto God.

Proverbs 11:28
He that trusteth in his riches shall fall: but the righteous shall flourish as a branch.

Proverbs 23:5
Wilt thou set thine eyes upon that which is not? for riches certainly make themselves wings; they fly away as an eagle toward heaven.

Matthew 6:19-21
Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:
But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:
For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

Matthew 13:22; Mark 4:18-19
He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
And these are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word,
And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.

Matthew 19:21
Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

Luke 12:15-34
And he said unto them, Take heed, and beware of covetousness: for a man's life consisteth not in the abundance of the things which he possesseth.
And he spake a parable unto them, saying, The ground of a certain rich man brought forth plentifully:
And he thought within himself, saying, What shall I do, because I have no room where to bestow my fruits?
And he said, This will I do: I will pull down my barns, and build greater; and there will I bestow all my fruits and my goods.
And I will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, and be merry.
But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided?
So is he that layeth up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward God.And he said unto his disciples, Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat; neither for the body, what ye shall put on.
The life is more than meat, and the body is more than raiment.
Consider the ravens: for they neither sow nor reap; which neither have storehouse nor barn; and God feedeth them: how much more are ye better than the fowls?
And which of you with taking thought can add to his stature one cubit?
If ye then be not able to do that thing which is least, why take ye thought for the rest?
Consider the lilies how they grow: they toil not, they spin not; and yet I say unto you, that Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.
If then God so clothe the grass, which is to day in the field, and to morrow is cast into the oven; how much more will he clothe you, O ye of little faith?
And seek not ye what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink, neither be ye of doubtful mind.
For all these things do the nations of the world seek after: and your Father knoweth that ye have need of these things.
But rather seek ye the kingdom of God; and all these things shall be added unto you.
Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.
Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth, neither moth corrupteth.
For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

James 5:1-3
Go to now, ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you.
Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are motheaten.
Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days.

I Timothy 6:3-11, 17-19
If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness;
He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings,
Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
But godliness with contentment is great gain.
For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out.
And having food and raiment let us be therewith content.
But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition.
For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.
But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.
Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy;
That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate;
Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.

SISTER Murphy
07-08-2007, 11:00 PM
I think tv1a's point was that Joseph was being blessed every step of the way - even in his suffering and testing. The "no weapon formed against thee shall prosper...."

My point was that I agree Joseph was being blessed, even in prison, but I don't think the typical Prosperity Doctrine teaches that. It seems to only reflect on monetary gain.

Exactly! Giving for the purpose of getting. And that is so shallow, so carnal, so not Biblical. What a lame excuse of a wife I would be if I only did things for my husband when I wanted him to do something in return. That isn't love, that isn't even a decent friendship. But that is how some big name televangelists teach people to act towards God, the One Who came Himself and took on our sins and paid the price for them with His own blood! How revolting that must be to Him, how hurtful that must be.

Rico
07-08-2007, 11:33 PM
I haven't read all the posts in this thred, so maybe someone has already brought this up: If apostolics would would actually teach what the Bible teaches about prosperity then junk like this wouldn't make its way into our churches. There seems to be a fear of teaching biblical principles for prosperity in apostolic churches and I don't know why. And no, I am not talking about tithing either.

SISTER Murphy
07-08-2007, 11:43 PM
I haven't read all the posts in this thred, so maybe someone has already brought this up: If apostolics would would actually teach what the Bible teaches about prosperity then junk like this wouldn't make its way into our churches. There seems to be a fear of teaching biblical principles for prosperity in apostolic churches and I don't know why. And no, I am not talking about tithing either.

Absolutely! I am so thankful for a good pastor who teaches what the Bible teaches about all of those principles of giving, blessing, obedience, faithfulness, submission, worship, charity, faith, deliverance, liberty, sound doctrine, authority, righteousness, peace, joy, victory.....

And then, ABOVE that, I have a most wonderful husband who does an outstanding job of applying the Word of God to our marriage and our home. I am so, so blessed!

Trouvere
07-08-2007, 11:44 PM
where are they getting this uncommon seed idea? Nothing is new in the bible.
You reap what you sow.Its God law of the harvest not anything new.I think
its just an idea MM is using to sell his books.

tbpew
07-09-2007, 08:16 AM
where are they getting this uncommon seed idea? Nothing is new in the bible.
You reap what you sow.Its God law of the harvest not anything new.I think
its just an idea MM is using to sell his books.

This post stirs a certain specific thought in me.
Is the "uncommon-ness" the seed or the quantity in which a "common" seed is sown? My guess is Murdock & Parsley are speaking of the latter. IMO, they are asking their followers to sow money in a way that is UNCOMMON within the individual giver's experience. The field that they are being asked to cast/sow their seed upon, is the field of the 'Wisdom Center'.

Note: This idea is certainly something all of us are familiar with. Very few of us have been encouraged to cheerfully give to any other need or treasury than the local assembly that we frequent, and certainly NOT outside the member-minister organization that the founding/senior pastor fellowships.

So WHAT is being sown?
Money?
Cheerfulness?
thanksgiving?
faithfulness?
insurance?

Whatever we sow, our expectation is to reap IN KIND.

IMO, Murdock is teaching that if you SOW MONEY ($58 or $1000) you will REAP an increase of MONEY.

Brother Strange
07-09-2007, 09:14 AM
I do not believe in trying to manipulate God for financial gain with money. THAT GOD is Mammon. He is akin to Baal. To use "Cathaderal of Wisdom" philosophy during offering time, espcially by the use of the Office of Prophet or the gift of Prophecy is reprehensible if not worse.

It matters not in the least to me if this statement galls everything from General Supretendent to the wineo under the bridge. My attitude is, you agree, disagree, love it, hate it, like it or lump it. Your choice.

One poster made a stupid lawsuit threat. Too many lawyers in my family to care. It's amazing how silly one can become when emotionally overwhelmed.

Is this arrogance? No. I am heartbroken over the meaness and ugly spirits manifested over an expressed personal opinion that was not aimed at a person or persons, but rather, the misuse of office/gifting for collective purposes, regardless now noble the intent.

In it all, a shift in the movement is appropriately noted.

chaotic_resolve
07-09-2007, 10:11 AM
I do not believe in trying to manipulate God for financial gain with money. THAT GOD is Mammon. He is akin to Baal. To use "Cathaderal of Wisdom" philosophy during offering time, espcially by the use of the Office of Prophet or the gift of Prophecy is reprehensible if not worse.
Here you go again with your baseless accusations. Where's the proof? You're long on accusations but short on proof.

What is this Cathedral of Wisdom philosophy and how was it used at the Campmeeting? You accused the minister before of using words "verbatim" from the Cathedral. What words are they and can anyone else verify this?

Mods - either he needs to present proof of his accusations or he should be required to retract them the same as anyone else on here!

Jack Shephard
07-09-2007, 10:27 AM
Here you go again with your baseless accusations. Where's the proof? You're long on accusations but short on proof.

What is this Cathedral of Wisdom philosophy and how was it used at the Campmeeting? You accused the minister before of using words "verbatim" from the Cathedral. What words are they and can anyone else verify this?

Mods - either he needs to present proof of his accusations or he should be required to retract them the same as anyone else on here!

Great post!