Can A Muslim Be A Good American???

[Brother Strange]

I received the below article in my email this morning. I thought it be worth sharing...


Wow, worth reading to the last sentence.
Think about this


Subject: Can A good Muslim Be a good American?????/

Better think about this long and hard.....

Can a Good Muslim be a Good American?

Interesting questions for the Muslim Community to discuss & for research on our part also.

Can a good Muslim be a good American?

Theologically - no. Because his allegiance is to Allah, the moon God of Arabia .

Religiously - no. Because no other religion is accepted by his Allah except Islam (Quran, 2:256)

Scripturally - no. Because his allegiance is to the five pillars of Islam and the Quran (Koran).

Geographically - no. Because his allegiance is to Mecca , to which he turns in prayer five times a day.

Socially - no. Because his allegiance to Islam forbids him to make friends with Christians or Jews.

Politically - no. Because he must submit to the mullah (spiritual leaders), who teach annihilation of Israel and Destruction of America , the great Satan.

Domestically - no Because he is instructed to marry four women and beat and scourge his wife when she disobeys him (Quran 4:34 ).

Intellectually - no. Because he cannot accept the American Constitution since it is based on Biblical principles and he believes the Bible to be corrupt.

Philosophically - no. Because Islam, Muhammad, and the Quran do not allow freedom of religion and expression. Democracy and Islam cannot co-exist.
Every Muslim government is either dictatorial or autocratic.

Spiritually - no. Because when we declare "one nation under God," the Christians God is loving and kind, while Allah is NEVER referred to as heavenly father, nor is he ever called love in The Qurans 99 excellent names.

Therefore after much study and deliberation.... Perhaps we should be very suspicious of ALL MUSLIMS in this country. They obviously cannot be both "good" Muslims and good Americans.

Call it what you wish, its still the truth. You had better believe it!
If you find yourself intellectually in agreement with the above statements, perhaps you will share this with your friends. The more who understand this, the better it will be for our country and our future. Pass it on Fellow Americans. The religious war is bigger than we know or understand.

And Barack Hussein Obama, a self-declared, one time Muslim, wants to be our President...

[OP_Carl]

Good luck getting intelligent replies.

I've been asking this for years, but get no answers because folks are far too concerned about appearing insensitive to multiculturalism, which is nothing more than the latest name for the cultural destruction of America from within promised by the communists decades ago. Seems to be working . . .

This prose has some faulty reasoning, as it implies that all Muslims in America are fundamentalists. The truth is that the majority of them are here for the express reason that they could see that the emperor had, indeed, no clothes, and they want to improve their lot in life, and give their children a brighter future. They remain Muslim in practice, since they know nothing else and it is a taste of home, but by and large they are skeptical at heart of the very things on which this missive focuses.

[Brother Strange]

Good luck getting intelligent replies.

I've been asking this for years, but get no answers because folks are far too concerned about appearing insensitive to multiculturalism, which is nothing more than the latest name for the cultural destruction of America from within promised by the communists decades ago. Seems to be working . . .

This prose has some faulty reasoning, as it implies that all Muslims in America are fundamentalists. The truth is that the majority of them are here for the express reason that they could see that the emperor had, indeed, no clothes, and they want to improve their lot in life, and give their children a brighter future. They remain Muslim in practice, since they know nothing else and it is a taste of home, but by and large they are skeptical at heart of the very things on which this missive focuses.

I can only hope that you are right in regard to the bolded statement.

But, it appears to me that if a Muslim is going to be a purist, our very way of life would be severely threatened. It seems to me that the so called moderate Muslims here are very much in sympathy of the cause of the radicals.

I remember reading that if a Chritian church is within so many feet of a Mosque, that their Koran demands that the church be destroyed.

I can only hope that the majority do not decide to become a Koran purist.

[OP_Carl]

The trouble is the moderates go along to get along, or just fade away. The teaching and the recruiting is more along the fundamentalist line, as is the immigration effort.

You are correct that there is much to be concerned about, but Dr. Mohammed down at the hospital isn't (usually) the epicenter.

[Brother Strange]

The trouble is the moderates go along to get along, or just fade away. The teaching and the recruiting is more along the fundamentalist line, as is the immigration effort.

You are correct that there is much to be concerned about, but Dr. Mohammed down at the hospital isn't (usually) the epicenter.

You are right. At least here in American. So far...so good. But, if you recall there were about three Dr. Mohammeds in London that were in involved in the recent London Airport terrorist act.

[OP_Carl]

You are right. At least here in American. So far...so good. But, if you recall there were about three Dr. Mohammeds in London that were in involved in the recent London Airport terrorist act.

Ahhh, London. Strict truth-in-advertising laws, but they still can't call a terrorist a terrorist. :rolleyes2

[Michlow]

It seems to me the proper question is actually "Can an american be a good muslim?"

[Brother Strange]

Ahhh, London. Strict truth-in-advertising laws, but they still can't call a terrorist a terrorist. :rolleyes2

Aint it the truth!

They would have a hard time saying, "We just got bombed by some MUSLIM terrorists."

I bet if it would have been some old blue haired Methodist ladies, the headlines would have read, "Methodist Declare Warn On England."

[Brother Strange]

It seems to me the proper question is actually "Can an american be a good muslim?"

What was the name of the young man from California that went to Afganistan and fought with the Taliban? When the US invated that country, one of the first things that they did was capture him. His hame was John something if I remember rightly.

[OP_Carl]

What was the name of the young man from California that went to Afganistan and fought with the Taliban? When the US invated that country, one of the first things that they did was capture him. His hame was John something if I remember rightly.

His name is unimportant. The salient point to remember about him is that he was stupid.

"Stupid is as stupid does" -- Forrest Gump

[Brother Strange]

His name is unimportant. The salient point to remember about him is that he was stupid.

"Stupid is as stupid does" -- Forrest Gump

Good ol' Forest. He had a lot of wisdom.... :D

Well, at least he could run!

[Newman]

I received the below article in my email this morning. I thought it be worth sharing...

Subject: Can A good Muslim Be a good American?????


Author's "good" = radical; Most of the Muslims in this country are here pursuing a better life; not seeking to revolutionize America. IMO

Interesting questions for the Muslim Community to discuss & for research on our part also.

Can a good Muslim be a good American? Theologically - no. Because his allegiance is to Allah, the moon God of Arabia .

Can a good atheist be a good American? Can unrepentant sinners be good Americans? Can today's young people be good Americans? Can people who drive foreign cars be good Americans? Can American auto workers who belong to the union be good Americans? Can UPC ministers who signed affirmation statements be good Americans?

Theologically, given the author's premise, it would have to be no. Because it could be argued that the atheist has no allegiance; the unrepentant sinner's allegliance is to himself; too many young people's allegiance is to MTV; the foreign car driver's allegiance is to a wallet; the auto worker's allegiance to the union; while the UPC affirmation-signing ministers loyalty is to an organization.

Religiously - no. Because no other religion is accepted by his Allah except Islam (Quran, 2:256)

Is this the same of the Apostolic faith?

Scripturally - no. Because his allegiance is to the five pillars of Islam and the Quran (Koran).

And this is somehow inferior to the allegiance America has with HollyWood and all that is carnal?

Geographically - no. Because his allegiance is to Mecca , to which he turns in prayer five times a day.

And Americans turn to HollyWood how often a day?

Socially - no. Because his allegiance to Islam forbids him to make friends with Christians or Jews.

Really? I note the missing proof text.

Politically - no. Because he must submit to the mullah (spiritual leaders), who teach annihilation of Israel and Destruction of America , the great Satan.

And Americans are known for following their spiritual leaders despite reservations about it? Do all Catholic families have 20 kids?

Domestically - no Because he is instructed to marry four women and beat and scourge his wife when she disobeys him (Quran 4:34 ).

Out of context? Domestically - no Because Christians are instructed to hate their family... "If any man come to me, and hate not his father, mother, and wife and children and brethren, and sisters, yea his own life also, he cannot be my disciple" (Luke 14:26).

Intellectually - no. Because he cannot accept the American Constitution since it is based on Biblical principles and he believes the Bible to be corrupt.

Really? I again note the missing proof text.

Philosophically - no. Because Islam, Muhammad, and the Quran do not allow freedom of religion and expression. Democracy and Islam cannot co-exist.
Every Muslim government is either dictatorial or autocratic.

This is outside the premise that Muslims can't be good Americans. The author's premise now assumes the Muslim religion would be enforced on everyone else. How did the author leap from citizenship to dictatorship?

Spiritually - no. Because when we declare "one nation under God," the Christians God is loving and kind, while Allah is NEVER referred to as heavenly father, nor is he ever called love in The Qurans 99 excellent names.

Most of the nation is not serving the same God. There are hundreds of denominations and probably more Americans who don't attend church regularly than those who do. Does theology make an American American?

Or is it more along the lines of MLK's dream? The belief that America is the land of opportunity where everybody is free to pursue their dreams despite the circumstances of their birth?

Therefore after much study and deliberation.... Perhaps we should be very suspicious of ALL MUSLIMS in this country. They obviously cannot be both "good" Muslims and good Americans.

The author needs alot more study and deliberation before lumping a huge group of people together who left their homeland to make America their home. There was a reason they left. Maybe he or she should grapple with that truth first before attempting to paint all devout Muslims with the same brush...



Hate is hate. Usually unproductive and ill-informed. My son went to an international high school which had a significant number of Muslim students. I know of none that hated America and the few I got to know well, cut and bleed just like us.

And the reality was that most of the Muslims my son went to school with had a moral center that surpassed the average Americans (rather they claim to be Christian or not).

Nevertheless, morality doesn't a saved person make. The Muslims need to be won to Christ through friendship and prayer (just like anyone else). Christ died for them too.

But in the meantime; the concept of America is more inclusive than a group of people who only believe one way about God. Afterall, that was the oppression that the pilgrims escaped from in England, was it not? :cool:

[Brother Strange]

Newman, I didn't see anything in the email that would neccessarily be construed as hate. It was someone's own perspective. Had I perceived something hateful, I would not have shared it here.

That being said, if you were to read the Koran, and you were a faithful (to the letter) Muslim, you would be seeking to chop off my head since I would be regarded by you as an infidel. Now that might be construed as hate...if you think about it. What do you think?

Personally, I am very much adverse to seeing the heads of my little grandchildren chopped off, even if mine never is. I don't know too many athiest, MTV crowd or even unrepentant sinners wanting to chop of the heads of my family.

Granted this is the radical element, but they are the purist. There is no peace anywhere in the world where there is a nearly equal population of Muslims to any other religion. Personally, I prefer peace in this nation.

Rushdie wrote a book entitled, "Satanic Verses." In it he exposed the true teachings of the Muslim's bible, the Kohran. Afterwards, many of the Muslim leaders called for his death.

Your experience with them may be a positive one. I am grateful that it is. My friend D. A. B. and his family is currently having a very negative experience with their Muslim neighbors after they tried to give a Christian witness to them. They have suffered a great deal of harassment since then. So far, I have not personally had very much contact with them.

I just pray that God will keep us safe here in America. I pray for our leaders as the bible teaches us to do, that we might lead a quiet and peaceful life.

God bless, sister. It is good to see you around again.

[Newman]

Newman, I didn't see anything in the email that would neccessarily be construed as hate. It was someone's own perspective. Had I perceived something hateful, I would not have shared it here.

That being said, if you were to read the Koran, and you were a faithful (to the letter) Muslim, you would be seeking to chop off my head since I would be regarded by you as an infidel. Now that might be construed as hate...if you think about it. What do you think?

Personally, I am very much adverse to seeing the heads of my little grandchildren chopped off, even if mine never is. I don't know too many athiest, MTV crowd or even unrepentant sinners wanting to chop of the heads of my family.

Granted this is the radical element, but they are the purist. There is no peace anywhere in the world where there is a nearly equal population of Muslims to any other religion. Personally, I prefer peace in this nation.

Rushdie wrote a book entitled, "Satanic Verses." In it he exposed the true teachings of the Muslim's bible, the Kohran. Afterwards, many of the Muslim leaders called for his death.

Your experience with them may be a positive one. I am grateful that it is. My friend D. A. B. and his family is currently having a very negative experience with their Muslim neighbors after they tried to give a Christian witness to them. They have suffered a great deal of harassment since then. So far, I have not personally had very much contact with them.

I just pray that God will keep us safe here in America. I pray for our leaders as the bible teaches us to do, that we might lead a quiet and peaceful life.

God bless, sister. It is good to see you around again.

Brother Strange- The author concluded, "Therefore after much study and deliberation.... Perhaps we should be very suspicious of ALL MUSLIMS in this country. They obviously cannot be both "good" Muslims and good Americans"

That is pretty close to hate speech (in my opinion) given that it seeks to condemn and bring reproach upon a whole group of people based on the actions and attitudes of an oppressive government these people who are attempting to build a life in America, have left behind.

Consequently, I am unaware of American Muslims who want to chop off the heads of anyone's family. If one were faithful to the letter of the Bible, men would be plucking their eyes out and chopping their hands off. The question to be asked then, is how literally are the American Muslims interpretting the Koran?

The MTV crowd and athiest are arguably among those that are raising kids in this world without stability. Kids who grow up without stability are much more dangerous to our society then Muslims growing up in American homes with both a mother and a father; and faith in God as they know him.

My five years of experience with American Muslims has been positive and had some bearing on my viewpoint. They weep for their children just like we do. :cool:

[ReformedDave]

Muslims have a difficult time understanding 'christians' . They can't understand how our belief system doesn't affect our thinking/behavior in every part of life......me neither.

[Newman]

Muslims have a difficult time understanding 'christians' . They can't understand how our belief system doesn't affect our thinking/behavior in every part of life......me neither.

EXACTLY! It was pretty sobering to learn that everyday at my son's school; Muslims were on their knees praying...:sshhh

[ReformedDave]

EXACTLY! It was pretty sobering to learn that everyday at my son's school; Muslims were on their knees praying...:sshhh

In a strange way they are a witness against us.

["GL"]

Sounds like it was written by someone who has little to no experience with Muslim Americans...

[Brother Strange]

There seems to be a lot of apologetics for the cause of the Muslim religion here...at least more than I thought there would be. I never expected such a huge defense. But, I suppose this thread could be educational.

Would someone please inform me how that the Muslim religion in America is any different than that all of the other nations in which they are the majority?

What am I missing here. Why are the American Muslims so peaceful and loving here in the good ol' USA when they are so violent in other nations? What's different here?

Just wondering?

[Praxeas]

I received the below article in my email this morning. I thought it be worth sharing...


Wow, worth reading to the last sentence.
Think about this


Subject: Can A good Muslim Be a good American?????/

Better think about this long and hard.....

Can a Good Muslim be a Good American?

Interesting questions for the Muslim Community to discuss & for research on our part also.

Can a good Muslim be a good American?

Theologically - no. Because his allegiance is to Allah, the moon God of Arabia .

Religiously - no. Because no other religion is accepted by his Allah except Islam (Quran, 2:256)

Scripturally - no. Because his allegiance is to the five pillars of Islam and the Quran (Koran).

Geographically - no. Because his allegiance is to Mecca , to which he turns in prayer five times a day.

Socially - no. Because his allegiance to Islam forbids him to make friends with Christians or Jews.

Politically - no. Because he must submit to the mullah (spiritual leaders), who teach annihilation of Israel and Destruction of America , the great Satan.

Domestically - no Because he is instructed to marry four women and beat and scourge his wife when she disobeys him (Quran 4:34 ).

Intellectually - no. Because he cannot accept the American Constitution since it is based on Biblical principles and he believes the Bible to be corrupt.

Philosophically - no. Because Islam, Muhammad, and the Quran do not allow freedom of religion and expression. Democracy and Islam cannot co-exist.
Every Muslim government is either dictatorial or autocratic.

Spiritually - no. Because when we declare "one nation under God," the Christians God is loving and kind, while Allah is NEVER referred to as heavenly father, nor is he ever called love in The Qurans 99 excellent names.

Therefore after much study and deliberation.... Perhaps we should be very suspicious of ALL MUSLIMS in this country. They obviously cannot be both "good" Muslims and good Americans.

Call it what you wish, its still the truth. You had better believe it!
If you find yourself intellectually in agreement with the above statements, perhaps you will share this with your friends. The more who understand this, the better it will be for our country and our future. Pass it on Fellow Americans. The religious war is bigger than we know or understand.

And Barack Hussein Obama, a self-declared, one time Muslim, wants to be our President...
The only problem is Obama does NOT claim to be a Muslim. That he used to be a muslim then makes all the earlier points not applicable to him

[Praxeas]

This prose has some faulty reasoning, as it implies that all Muslims in America are fundamentalists. The truth is that the majority of them are here for the express reason that they could see that the emperor had, indeed, no clothes, and they want to improve their lot in life, and give their children a brighter future. They remain Muslim in practice, since they know nothing else and it is a taste of home, but by and large they are skeptical at heart of the very things on which this missive focuses.
Well see you missed the point. The question was about GOOD Muslims. According to Fundamentalist Muslims those that are NOT of the list are not really good Muslims :winkgrin

[Newman]

There seems to be a lot of apologetics for the cause of the Muslim religion here...at least more than I thought there would be. I never expected such a huge defense. But, I suppose this thread could be educational.

Would someone please inform me how that the Muslim religion in America is any different than that all of the other nations in which they are the majority?

What am I missing here. Why are the American Muslims so peaceful and loving here in the good ol' USA when they are so violent in other nations? What's different here?

Just wondering?

Hehehe Just like to keep things interesting Bro. Strange. :igotit

I was thinking about how awful things are in Europe and wondering the same thing myself...

Some differences- Europe is a religous vacume. So far, arguably, America still is more Christian than not.

America is still a land of opportunity for those that are looking for the opportunity. England and France have less capitalism.

Those that come to America, likely have greater resources to get started with then those underemployed and not employed restless young people in Europe. For the same reason, we are more likely to have whole families come here then just single men looking for anything better than where they were at.

Finally, American freedom is something to be excited about. I think the Muslims that come understand (so far) that tolerance works.

Just some thoughts for discussion... I could certainly be wrong! :D

[Praxeas]

Author's "good" = radical; Most of the Muslims in this country are here pursuing a better life; not seeking to revolutionize America. IMO

Hate is hate. Usually unproductive and ill-informed. My son went to an international high school which had a significant number of Muslim students. I know of none that hated America and the few I got to know well, cut and bleed just like us.

And the reality was that most of the Muslims my son went to school with had a moral center that surpassed the average Americans (rather they claim to be Christian or not).

Nevertheless, morality doesn't a saved person make. The Muslims need to be won to Christ through friendship and prayer (just like anyone else). Christ died for them too.

But in the meantime; the concept of America is more inclusive than a group of people who only believe one way about God. Afterall, that was the oppression that the pilgrims escaped from in England, was it not? :cool:

That muslims have a moral center is irrelevant. Having a moral center does not prevent someone from killing the enemies of God and thinking it was a moral deed.

As for the majority of Muslims here, you all should realize that Islam has taken over other nations, even Christians, without firing a shot or blowing up anything. They did that in Lebanon without violence. They gained sympathetic support from the Christians there and then took over the political system. They grew in numbers until they were the majority...anyone see a pattern? This is happening in Britain and the rest of Europe. The "attacks" that have occured were from the more extremists groups, yet you hear very little outcry from most of the other Islamics and that is probably because they all agree on the conclusion or outcome, not necessarily on the means.

It's a logical fallacy to just accuse someone of hate for saying that. I have a ton of links with historical references if you are interested..in fact I have already posted them in the past.

BTW Theologically ALL Muslims believe it's the goal of Islam to convert the entire world and governments to Islam. It's the goal of Christians to convert the entire world to Christianity....we do it by witnessing and teaching bible studies and sending missionaries. They do it by armed struggle, population shifts/changing the demographics and taking over the political system. They use the laws of whereever they are at to their advantage to spread Islam and make the culture change to accomodate them.

["GL"]

Bro S, you cannot paint all muslims with a broad brush.

Are all Pentecostals snake handlers?
Are all Christians abortion clinic bombers?
Do all Christians even believe in the absolutel authority of the Word?

Within Islam there are a variety of different sects, each interpretting the same writings in a very different manner.

It sort of reminds me of AFF...:nod

[Praxeas]

Bro S, you cannot paint all muslims with a broad brush.

Are all Pentecostals snake handlers?
Are all Christians abortion clinic bombers?
Do all Christians even believe in the absolutel authority of the Word?

Within Islam there are a variety of different sects, each interpretting the same writings in a very different manner.

It sort of reminds me of AFF...:nod
You can paint MOST Muslims a certain way theologically/politically and socially because of the Quran.

Also mind you, there are not a thousand Islamic denominations with different beliefs. You have Sunni and you have Shiites and they have peculiar belief systems.

[Brother Strange]

That muslims have a moral center is irrelevant. Having a moral center does not prevent someone from killing the enemies of God and thinking it was a moral deed.

As for the majority of Muslims here, you all should realize that Islam has taken over other nations, even Christians, without firing a shot or blowing up anything. They did that in Lebanon without violence. They gained sympathetic support from the Christians there and then took over the political system. They grew in numbers until they were the majority...anyone see a pattern? This is happening in Britain and the rest of Europe. The "attacks" that have occured were from the more extremists groups, yet you hear very little outcry from most of the other Islamics and that is probably because they all agree on the conclusion or outcome, not necessarily on the means.

It's a logical fallacy to just accuse someone of hate for saying that. I have a ton of links with historical references if you are interested..in fact I have already posted them in the past.

BTW Theologically ALL Muslims believe it's the goal of Islam to convert the entire world and governments to Islam. It's the goal of Christians to convert the entire world to Christianity....we do it by witnessing and teaching bible studies and sending missionaries. They do it by armed struggle, population shifts/changing the demographics and taking over the political system. They use the laws of whereever they are at to their advantage to spread Islam and make the culture change to accomodate them.

I have been told all of the above.

Certainly, I would hope that when (and they will) become the majority in America that they wll remain the nice sweet peace loving moral people that they are now...unlike all the other Muslims around the world. However, I have my serious doubts.

I have also been told that in the minority, they are as lambs. As equals they are as foxes. In the majority, they are tigers.

My prefered method of evangelism is not at the edge of the sword. I would hope that any other religion domiciled in America would not feel the need to use armed conflict to make converts. I have a strong aversion to having my head chopped off, if that is their loving method of evangelism.

["GL"]

You can paint MOST Muslims a certain way theologically/politically and socially because of the Quran.

Also mind you, there are not a thousand Islamic denominations with different beliefs. You have Sunni and you have Shiites and they have peculiar belief systems.

I think you need to start witnessing to and befriending some Muslims. I think it will expand your perception...

[Brother Strange]

Bro S, you cannot paint all muslims with a broad brush.

Are all Pentecostals snake handlers?
Are all Christians abortion clinic bombers?
Do all Christians even believe in the absolutel authority of the Word?

Within Islam there are a variety of different sects, each interpretting the same writings in a very different manner.

It sort of reminds me of AFF...:nod

Well, GL...

Maybe they are just our brothers and sisters. Bless their little hearts. I sure wouldn't want to think anything negative about our brothers and sisters' religion at all, without just cause.

[Newman]

That muslims have a moral center is irrelevant. Having a moral center does not prevent someone from killing the enemies of God and thinking it was a moral deed.

As for the majority of Muslims here, you all should realize that Islam has taken over other nations, even Christians, without firing a shot or blowing up anything. They did that in Lebanon without violence. They gained sympathetic support from the Christians there and then took over the political system. They grew in numbers until they were the majority...anyone see a pattern? This is happening in Britain and the rest of Europe. The "attacks" that have occured were from the more extremists groups, yet you hear very little outcry from most of the other Islamics and that is probably because they all agree on the conclusion or outcome, not necessarily on the means.

It's a logical fallacy to just accuse someone of hate for saying that. I have a ton of links with historical references if you are interested..in fact I have already posted them in the past.

BTW Theologically ALL Muslims believe it's the goal of Islam to convert the entire world and governments to Islam. It's the goal of Christians to convert the entire world to Christianity....we do it by witnessing and teaching bible studies and sending missionaries. They do it by armed struggle, population shifts/changing the demographics and taking over the political system. They use the laws of whereever they are at to their advantage to spread Islam and make the culture change to accomodate them.

Praxeas- I was speaking of the kind of moral center that means young people don't drink and do drugs and engage in premarital sex so that they can have intact families in the future; who in turn raise children that likewise bring up children in a family environment with both a mother and a father. WE as a nation are failing terribly at this.

For the record; I accused the letter writer of hate speech for saying that good Muslims could not be good Americans.

I think you should put some of your facts and figures here. Let's look at historical cause and effect and see if its as crystal clear as you suppose... :IAM

[Rico]

I think it will take at least a generation or two for traditional Muslim practices to fade away among Muslim Americans, much like other cultural practices and whatnot fade away with other groups. I am the first generation in my family to be born here in the States and there is very little I have in common with people that live on the Island, culturally speaking.

["GL"]

Well, GL...

Maybe they are just our brothers and sisters. Bless their little hearts. I sure wouldn't want to think anything negative about our brothers and sisters' religion at all, without just cause.


Chill out, Bro Strange.

I hope you don't live your life judging everyone with such a narrow viewpoint. I would never refer to muslims as my brothers or sisters. But I will love them and learn from them, so I can win more to the kingdom. We just had a former radical Muslim preach in our pulpit.

[Praxeas]

I have been told all of the above.

Certainly, I would hope that when (and they will) become the majority in America that they wll remain the nice sweet peace loving moral people that they are now...unlike all the other Muslims around the world. However, I have my serious doubts.

I have also been told that in the minority, they are as lambs. As equals they are as foxes. In the majority, they are tigers.

My prefered method of evangelism is not at the edge of the sword. I would hope that any other religion domiciled in America would not feel the need to use armed conflict to make converts. I have a strong aversion to having my head chopped off, if that is their loving method of evangelism.
In Muslim majority nations, Christians have few rights and what rights they do have under the law, the Islamic governments look the other way when they are violated. Under Islamic law, in the quran, Christians are required to pay a special tax for not converting to Islam.

In Turkey recently christians were brutally beaten and tortured, even having their guts cut out and sliced up before their eyes...for setting up a bible study. In Malay I think it was or some other Asiatic area, Christian school girls, wearing their uniforms, were attacked and beheaded...One girl survived the attempt but had a scar from ear to ear.

That is what happens in Muslim controlled countries on a regular basis, when they are not that brutally butchered their houses or properties are taken or firebombed. They are threatened on a daily basis..

The irony is is that CAIRN claims, as advocates for Muslims , that THEY are being systematically persecuted on a daily basis here in the US...you all ever hear of a muslim having their throats slit for teaching a quranic study?

In fact their idea of persecution is a company not installing special foot baths just for the muslims to wash their feet...or a cab company firing a muslim taxi driver because they refused to take a blind person with their dog...because in Islam dogs are dirty. They come to THIS country knowing things are different, without any thought at all of changing even a little bit on their part. They expect American to change for them instead.

[Praxeas]

I think you need to start witnessing to and befriending some Muslims. I think it will expand your perception...
I have and do. I have known Muslims for years. I have witnessed to many many many on the internet as well. My perception is based both on personal encounters as well as historical current events encounters.

[Newman]

I think it will take at least a generation or two for traditional Muslim practices to fade away among Muslim Americans, much like other cultural practices and whatnot fade away with other groups. I am the first generation in my family to be born here in the States and there is very little I have in common with people that live on the Island, culturally speaking.

Rico- That is what I see happening too. My son's friends bear the marks of Americanzation and will not be so strict with their own children.

Freedom is intoxicating. And the Muslim's don't allow for it. I think American ideals will win out over oppression and the Cross is greater than the sword. :cool:

[Praxeas]

Praxeas- I was speaking of the kind of moral center that means young people don't drink and do drugs and engage in premarital sex so that they can have intact families in the future; who in turn raise children that likewise bring up children in a family environment with both a mother and a father. WE as a nation are failing terribly at this.

yes I KNOW that was what you were speaking about and I was in agreement. My point was you can have that sort of moral center and STILL think it acceptable to kill someone in the name of religion

For the record; I accused the letter writer of hate speech for saying that good Muslims could not be good Americans.

I think you should put some of your facts and figures here. Let's look at historical cause and effect and see if its as crystal clear as you suppose... :IAMWell it was obvious from the get go that "good muslim" meant the more conservative and even moderate of the religion.

One of the things that has to be realized is their theology. What the Quran says.

Secondly, as I stated before, its' the goal of all Muslims to spread Islam world wide, they just don't all agree on the method

I would recommend reading a book called "Because They Hate", which is about Islamic extremists, not all Muslims.
Author is Brigitte Gabriel

I'll post some info though so you get the point of her book,
This is her site http://www.americancongressfortruth.com/archives.aspx

Her experience is as a Lebanese growing up a christian girl in Lebanon
Here are some youtube clips
-8fa9yKQeTY

X0gBTEwATwU

-sL54rHPwqA

PHYyu4vsZ6Y

dgqXYUs3h7Q

Udib2U0_mPg

SUmayTNRLg0

[Rico]

Rico- That is what I see happening too. My son's friends bear the marks of Americanzation and will not be so strict with their own children.

Freedom is intoxicating. And the Muslim's don't allow for it. I think American ideals will win out over oppression and the Cross is greater than the sword. :cool:

Exactly. If you knew how strict my grandparents were.............will be heard coming out of many an American Muslim's mouth in 30 years.

["GL"]

Our goal is also t spread our faith around the entire world and we don't agree on the method.

ref Res 4.

:D

[Praxeas]

BTW I believe most Muslims are really pawns of those seeking greater political control. On their own Muslims would not control any nation, however for many there would be and is a clash of cultures. In their culture in most places they have honor killings etc etc and many of them don't want to change that part of their culture. Others though come here to get away from that

Interview
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1707713/posts
FP: Brigitte Gabriel, welcome back to Frontpage Interview.


Gabriel: Thank you Jamie. It is always a pleasure working with you.


FP: So what inspired this new book?


Gabriel: Radical Islam’s modern war of world domination has been picking up momentum with its universal colophony of “Allahu Akbar” accompanying each act of terror and destruction.


Today, radical Islam’s war rages in varying degrees of intensity throughout the world, not just against Christians and Jews in the west, but also against Hindus, Buddhists, Copts, indeed all non-Muslim “infidels”, Their degree of zealotry even has them attacking other denominations within Islam itself. Islamic radicals are instigating and perpetuating terrorist campaigns, insurgencies, civil wars, minority suppression, ethnic cleansing and/or genocide in Afghanistan, Algeria, Bangladesh, Belgium, Chad, Chechnya, Dagestan, Denmark, Egypt, Ethiopia, France, Gambia, Great Britain, India, Indonesia, Iran, Iraq, Israel, Kashmir, Kenya, Kosovo, Lebanon, Macedonia, Mali, Mauritania, Morocco, Netherlands, Niger, Nigeria, Pakistan, territories administered by the “Palestinian Authority,” Philippines, Qatar, Russia, Saudi Arabia, Senegal, Somalia, Spain, Sudan, Syria, Tanzania, Thailand, Tunisia, Turkey, The United States of America, Yemen, and Zanzibar. The rest of the world is held hostage to fear.


This book is part my personal story and my observations. It is written in the hope that Americans and the west will recognize this eminent threat to their way of life and make the correct philosophical, legal, governmental policy and militarily decisions to protect themselves and our civilization before it is too late.


FP: I am sorry to raise a very painful subject, but can you kindly relate to us a bit about how you lost your childhood to militant Islam.


Gabriel: I was born into Paris of the Middle East, the Arab world’s jewel on the Mediterranean. Lebanon's geography encompasses both pristine beaches and snowcapped mountains, and most of the time Lebanon has an ideal Mediterranean climate. Lebanon was the most westernized Arabic speaking country in the Middle East, its citizens the most cultured and educated.


This natural beauty that filled and blessed our lives would fall prey to an ugliness of hate and animosity in 1975, when South Lebanon, where I lived, became a bloody battleground.


The Muslims and Palestinian declared war on the Christians and started killing us. They bombed my home in trying to take over our town. I was ten years old when my home exploded around me burying me under the rubble as the perpetrators shouted Allahu Akbar. I was wounded and spend two and half month in and out of a hospital for treatment. My father became deaf and lost all our lifesavings in the bombing. I had to live in an 8 by 10 bomb shelter for seven years of my life between 1975 and 1982 in pitch darkness for lack of electricity, freezing cold for lack of heat. I had to drink stale water which I collected from a near by spring crawling on my stomach in a ditch dodging sniper bullets. We had very little food, and resorted to collecting grass and vegetation that grew around the bomb shelter to eat. I was 13 yeas old when I dressed in my burial clothes going to bed at night waiting to be slaughtered, and by the age of 20 I had buried most of my friends who were killed by radical Muslims.


FP: In your book you discuss how radical Islam spread from the Middle East throughout the world and how the west failed to connect the dots. Please tell us about that.


Gabriel: As news anchor for World News, I realized there was a form of repetition developing with every broadcast I did. The same story but different actors: hijackings, car bombs and Muslims fighting non Muslims was the news. The only differences were the locations, the vehicles used and the names of the perpetrators and their victims. The names of the terrorists became all too familiar and similar. Muhammad, Ahmed, Hussein, Ali were nothing but a repeat of Islamic names of Muslim youth who had been brain washed with hatred and bigotry towards the infidels. They were always shouting "Allahu Akbar," the Moslem call to prayer, as their trademark celebratory cry for murder and glory as they slaughtered, killed, blew up, maimed or behead non Muslims.


The names of the targets or the kidnapped people were usually western: Terry Anderson, Terry Waite, Lt. Col. William Higgins, Pan Am flights, TWA, the Achille Lauro. I began to see how the Middle East was dragging the world down into a war of ideologies based on religious hatred and bigotry. I began to understand that what I and the Christians were going through in Lebanon that I thought was just a regional conflict was becoming a world wide conflict with international implications.


America and the west found an excuse for every incident and boxed and labeled it under the context of the country in which it took place. They attributed Iran’s conflict and the victory of Ayatollah Khomeini to an inner conflict within Iran. They attributed the Lebanese war to being a civil war among factions. They attributed the overall Arab/Israeli conflict as being just a Palestinian verses Israeli conflict over land. Yet in all these conflicts radical Islam was the driving force or lingered just under the surface. My book Because They Hate offers a list of Islamic/Arabic aggression leading up to 9/11 while the west neglected to connect the dots.


FP: What are the West’s weaknesses in its confrontation with this new enemy?


Gabriel: America never seems to learn the danger of letting your enemy think that you are weak, asleep or careless. America sent message after message to the Islamists that while America posses the most superior weapons of war, it does not posses the resolve or the will to follow through till victory. America proved it when it withdrew from Lebanon after the marines were bombed and after it didn't finish the job in Iraq the first time around during the gulf war. Ever since that signal was sent, the Islamists ratcheted up their attacks and the United States slept through every attack on our basis and interests overseas. They hijacked TWA flight 847, as well as the cruise ship Achille Lauro in 1985. They bombed another TWA flight as well as hijacked Pan Am flight 73 in 1986. They bombed another Pan Am flight 103 in 1988. They bombed a military compound in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia in 1995. The Khobar Towers also in Saudi Arabia 1996. They also bombed The USS Cole in Yemen in 2000.


So what signal did the United States send to the Islamic terrorists during eight years of the Clinton administration? For eight years the United States military defense budget was depleted. For eight years the US government was a social development center of political correctness, political corruption and arrogance while the Chinese stole our military secrets. The United States was in the middle of a slumber party while the Islamists were organizing, training, recruiting and infiltrating our country and counting on our blindness, carelessness and ignorance. They knew that the leadership was busy with sexual scandals instead of building our military, building our intelligence, increasing America's defense and staying on the lookout for anyone wishing our country harm.


Our anti military attitude as a nation and our cowardly responses to terrorists empowered our enemy to strengthen, grow, acquire weapons, and scientists and place Islamic terrorists right here in our midst living, and learning flight lessons, to begin our destruction.

[Praxeas]

Continued
FP: Tell us about terrorist cells in America.


Gabriel: Terrorist networks have set up shop in America. They took their time watching our reaction, learning our weaknesses, learning how to use our system and studying our immigration system and how it works. America has focused on Al Qaeda only as the most threatening group du jour and America's number one enemy. This is a grave mistake. Al Qaeda is nothing more than a melting pot of Islamists from different countries and various Islamic militant groups that share their hatred for and ideology against the West. Intelligence classified reports show evidence that Hamas, the terrorist organization that most Americans believe is Israel's problem, and Hezbollah, whom most Americans believe is a Lebanese problem, have both established cells in the United States and networks with al Qaeda to perpetrate suicide bombings in American cities. The Muslim Brotherhood is also active in the United States.


America's problems with terrorist infiltration stem from its large porous borders with Canada and Mexico. Our Canadian border stretches more than 4000 miles while the Mexican one is about 2000 miles long. Almost half these borders are unpopulated areas and are not patrolled. Thousand of terrorists can get in undetected. The Mexican border poses the most dangerous threat where non Mexicans - called the politically correct word OTM (other than Mexicans) - are being snuck into our country by the notorious Mexican MS 13 gang. It is estimated that thousands of sleeper agents have been smuggled into the country illegally through the Mexican border alone. Many sources within the FBI believe that these terrorists are here in America raising funds and working on logistics, waiting for the opportunity to strike within the United States. Many of them have received training in Lebanon, Syria, Pakistan and Afghanistan.


The majority of these terror cells are made up of Muslim immigrants from Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and most Middle Eastern Muslim countries who have families, relatives or friends residing in the United States and came in the country legally. However some of these cells include members who are U.S.-born American Muslim citizens. They are strongly established in Muslim communities working and running small businesses under the radar where they can have meetings, recruit sympathizers, offer videos, Arabic magazines and publications that entice hatred of anything western and glamorizes Jihad fe samil el lah, jihad for Allah. All this while able to raise funds for their cause under the cover of Islamic charities and foundations.
FP: How about the mosques in America? What role do many of them play in controlling radical ideology in their communities?


Gabriel: Sadly Jamie, the mosques around the world are a part of the problem instead of being a part of the solution. A recent report by Freedom House/Center For Religious Freedom clearly reveals the toxic tsunami of religious hatred that Saudi Arabia has unleashed here in the United States. The entire report can be found on line.


In compiling the report, the center studied over 200 books and publications collected from more than a dozen of the most prominent mosques and Islamic institutions in the United States, including those in Washington, DC, New York, Chicago, Houston, Dallas, Los Angeles and Oakland. All of these books and publications were financed and produced directly or indirectly by the Saudi government. Some of the books were texts from Islamic schools. Some were publications issued by the Saudi government specifically to provide guidance to Muslims living in or visiting the United States.


In their relations with all non-Muslims, these Saudi books and publications repeatedly exhort Muslims to “hate them for their religion,”- meaning us infidels - to “hate…for Allah’s sake”, “…always oppose them in every way…”, maintain a “wall of resentment” against them. They say that Democracy is “responsible for all of the horrible wars" of the 20th Century and that “attractive names like democracy, …justice, freedom, brotherhood and equality" cause all of the world’s problems.


They say that all religions but Islam are false, and that it is the religious duty of every Muslim to impose “functionally Islamic governments” on every country in the world. This religious duty is “binding in principle, in law, in self-defense, in community, and as a sacred obligation of jihad.” In order to fulfill this “sacred obligation of jihad”, they must invade its western heartland, and struggle to overcome it until all the world shouts by the name of the Prophet [Mohammad] and the teachings of Islam spread throughout the world. Only then will Muslims achieve their fundamental goal….[A]ll religion will be exclusively for Allah.


This type of education presents a major problem when we are trying to control the radical in our Muslim communities.


FP: How can the U.S. and the West prevail in this war?


Gabriel: Our Government needs to take stronger action not only against those persons who seek to destroy us, but also against those individuals who impede our fight on the war on terrorism, well-intended or not. Tougher laws must be implemented that protect our right to life and liberty, and if that means a declaration of war putting other rights on hold for a while, so be it! As I have learned from my own life’s experiences, nothing in life is free, especially freedom. In my opinion here are several initiatives that I believe will protect us in the homeland.


- Close our borders
- Reform the Immigration and naturalization service (INS):
- Increase human intelligence
- Profile, Profile and Profile
- Control education of foreign students of hostile countries
- Develop alternative energy sources
- Silence any teaching of hate and intolerance against our country
In the book I offer suggestions as to what the average person can do to fight terrorism and what everyday American and westerner can do to protect our communities and defend our nations.


Our willingness as a nation to support our intelligence community and provide them with whatever laws that will enable them to track and infiltrate cells in America will determine our demise or survival. The tragedy of September the 11th could be the end of terrorism on American soil or the beginning of the end of American civilization.


FP: Brigitte Gabriel, thank you for joining Frontpage Magazine. You are a very special person. It is an honor to have spoken with you.


Gabriel: Thank you Jamie.

[Praxeas]

This link has a lot of historical value.
http://www.krim.org/links/A_Critique_of_Islamic_Jihad.htm

[Praxeas]

Rico- That is what I see happening too. My son's friends bear the marks of Americanzation and will not be so strict with their own children.

Freedom is intoxicating. And the Muslim's don't allow for it. I think American ideals will win out over oppression and the Cross is greater than the sword. :cool:
Maybe....do you see this happening in Britian or Europe? Will the more extremist Muslims allow it and if not what will their response be?

[Praxeas]

I think it will take at least a generation or two for traditional Muslim practices to fade away among Muslim Americans, much like other cultural practices and whatnot fade away with other groups. I am the first generation in my family to be born here in the States and there is very little I have in common with people that live on the Island, culturally speaking.
The only problem is we have a constant influx of un-Americanized Muslims into our nation in addition to the fact that there are fundamentalist Muslims making converts here in the US.,

This is their website...
http://www.islamberg.org/

And this is what others are reporting
http://www.canadafreepress.com/2007/paul-williams051107.htm

[Scott Hutchinson]

If Muslims are following the Korah aren't they really only loyal to Islam and it's cause ?Are Muslims interested in world domination ?

[Brother Strange]

Rico- That is what I see happening too. My son's friends bear the marks of Americanzation and will not be so strict with their own children.

Freedom is intoxicating. And the Muslim's don't allow for it. I think American ideals will win out over oppression and the Cross is greater than the sword. :cool:

I guess every nation feels like theirs are different. When they become the majority here, they will sure be different than when they became the majority elsewhere. After all, this is America...so we think. I am afraid this will not be the case. I am afraid that we are only fooling ourselves.

What you all may not be aware of is, they are flooding into our nation by record numbers. Since the Immigration Reform act in the 1960s there has been a mighty stream of them into our nation. They are not assimilating into the American culturre. Up until the 1950s it was illegal to build a Mosque in America. Our society is changing very rapidly now, faster than any other time in history.

[Newman]

Well it was obvious from the get go that "good muslim" meant the more conservative and even moderate of the religion.

One of the things that has to be realized is their theology. What the Quran says.



1. In the context of the letter of the initial post; the author attempted to paint all American Muslims as untrustworthy. imo The author could have made it plain otherwise by using the term "radical" or "fundamental" if that had been the author's intention.

2. Muslim's can paint a terrible picture of Christianity if they pick and choose what verses of Scripture they want to use. Didn't God command genocide in the OT? Didn't Jesus tell his followers to hate their family? Didn't Jesus tell men to pluck their eyes out and/or chop their hands off to avoid temptation?

Of greater relevance then; is how are such passages interpretted today....

3. Talking to a Muslim on the internet for the purpose of converting them is totally different then going to school with them, playing ultimate frisbee and soccor together, making videos after school and heading to Cedar Point Amusement Park with them instead of getting a date for the senior prom. We have alot of shared values; more so than some of our non-Christian friends.

[Praxeas]

1. In the context of the letter of the initial post; the author attempted to paint all American Muslims as untrustworthy. imo The author could have made it plain otherwise by using the term "radical" or "fundamental" if that had been the author's intention.
I thought it attempted to portray only a good muslim, which means any American muslim that is NOT like that is simply not a good muslim...I don't say I agree with that, but that is what it seems to be saying

2. Muslim's can paint a terrible picture of Christianity if they pick and choose what verses of Scripture they want to use. Didn't God command genocide in the OT? Didn't Jesus tell his followers to hate their family? Didn't Jesus tell men to pluck their eyes out and/or chop their hands off to avoid temptation?
And? What exactly did you think I said that warrants this comment? All I did was point out what the author sees as a good muslim.

Of greater relevance then; is how are such passages interpretted today....

3. Talking to a Muslim on the internet for the purpose of converting them is totally different then going to school with them, playing ultimate frisbee and soccor together, making videos after school and heading to Cedar Point Amusement Park with them instead of getting a date for the senior prom. We have alot of shared values; more so than some of our non-Christian friends.
And? Again what exactly is it that you think I am saying? I also said I KNOW Muslims personally. I never said ALL muslims are anything....sigh....I can see where this is going. Everything I say will be twisted and taken out of context and not even understood, as it seems it is not already.

[Praxeas]

I guess every nation feels like theirs are different. When they become the majority here, they will sure be different than when they became the majority elsewhere. After all, this is America...so we think. I am afraid this will not be the case. I am afraid that we are only fooling ourselves.

What you all may not be aware of is, they are flooding into our nation by record numbers. Since the Immigration Reform act in the 1960s there has been a mighty stream of them into our nation. They are not assimilating into the American culturre. Up until the 1950s it was illegal to build a Mosque in America. Our society is changing very rapidly now, faster than any other time in history.
WATCH THE VIDEO. This is what happened in Lebanon. That is NOT, Newman, an indictment against ALL Muslims either, sigh.

[Rico]

I guess every nation feels like theirs are different. When they become the majority here, they will sure be different than when they became the majority elsewhere. After all, this is America...so we think. I am afraid this will not be the case. I am afraid that we are only fooling ourselves.

What you all may not be aware of is, they are flooding into our nation by record numbers. Since the Immigration Reform act in the 1960s there has been a mighty stream of them into our nation. They are not assimilating into the American culturre. Up until the 1950s it was illegal to build a Mosque in America. Our society is changing very rapidly now, faster than any other time in history.

Brother, if you want to be worried about anyone becoming the majority here in America be worried about us Spanish oriented folks. Statistics show we are the fastest growing segment of the nation's population. Major retailers have recognized this and started making their store signs in Spanish, putting Spanish commercials on English speaking tv programs, entire sections of major cities are Spanish speaking only, etc. etc. I hope you like burritos because eventually they will be the national food! :D

[Newman]

Brother, if you want to be worried about anyone becoming the majority here in America be worried about us Spanish oriented folks. Statistics show we are the fastest growing segment of the nation's population. Major retailers have recognized this and started making their store signs in Spanish, putting Spanish commercials on English speaking tv programs, entire sections of major cities are Spanish speaking only, etc. etc. I hope you like burritos because eventually they will be the national food! :D

Hey! I noticed this too. I think it is a problem when the new folks don't learn the new language. There is much that can be said for America as a melting pot as opposed to a chunky salad. ;)

[Newman]

I thought it attempted to portray only a good muslim, which means any American muslim that is NOT like that is simply not a good muslim...I don't say I agree with that, but that is what it seems to be saying


And? What exactly did you think I said that warrants this comment? All I did was point out what the author sees as a good muslim.

Of greater relevance then; is how are such passages interpretted today....


And? Again what exactly is it that you think I am saying? I also said I KNOW Muslims personally. I never said ALL muslims are anything....sigh....I can see where this is going. Everything I say will be twisted and taken out of context and not even understood, as it seems it is not already.

Sorry for communicating in a way that leaves you feeling misunderstood. I am actually learning something tonight. I have begun to watch the videos you put up. Very interesting but my husband wants me to watch something with him now. Perhaps another time... :cool:

[chosenbyone]

yes I KNOW that was what you were speaking about and I was in agreement. My point was you can have that sort of moral center and STILL think it acceptable to kill someone in the name of religion

Well it was obvious from the get go that "good Muslim" meant the more conservative and even moderate of the religion.

One of the things that has to be realized is their theology. What the Curran says.

Secondly, as I stated before, its' the goal of all Muslims to spread Islam world wide, they just don't all agree on the method

I would recommend reading a book called "Because They Hate", which is about Islamic extremists, not all Muslims.
Author is Brigitte Gabriel

I'll post some info though so you get the point of her book,
This is her site http://www.americancongressfortruth.com/archives.aspx

Her experience is as a Lebanese growing up a Christian girl in Lebanon
Here are some you tube clips
-8fa9yKQeTY

X0gBTEwATwU

-sL54rHPwqA

PHYyu4vsZ6Y

dgqXYUs3h7Q

Udib2U0_mPg

SUmayTNRLg0


This was a real eye opener!!! Everyone should take the time to view the entire presentation in order to garner a greater understanding or what has happened to the Muslim agenda on our soil.

Thanks for sharing these video clips.

[Praxeas]

Sorry for communicating in a way that leaves you feeling misunderstood. I am actually learning something tonight. I have begun to watch the videos you put up. Very interesting but my husband wants me to watch something with him now. Perhaps another time... :cool:
Newman I have to find this article about Political Islam. As I said I think most Muslims are really just pawns.

Do a study on the topic "Political Islam"

It's very interesting

[Rico]

Hey! I noticed this too. I think it is a problem when the new folks don't learn the new language. There is much that can be said for America as a melting pot as opposed to a chunky salad. ;)

I am hispanic, and can communicate with Spanish speaking people, but I absolutely hate it that they will not learn English. I've said it before, and I will say it again, my grandparents made sure they learned English when they came Stateside way back when. They never really mastered the language, but they never expected anyone to change street signs, store signs, radio and tv ads, just to suit their unwillingness to learn the language. Why hispanic folks will not learn the language is beyond me and I consider it an embarassment.

[Praxeas]

I am hispanic, and can communicate with Spanish speaking people, but I absolutely hate it that they will not learn English. I've said it before, and I will say it again, my grandparents made sure they learned English when they came Stateside way back when. They never really mastered the language, but they never expected anyone to change street signs, store signs, radio and tv ads, just to suit their unwillingness to learn the language. Why hispanic folks will not learn the language is beyond me and I consider it an embarassment.
My roomate/landlord is the same way. I have another roomie that is here from El Salvadore...he speaks pretty good english and he is here legally to boot!

[Rico]

My roomate/landlord is the same way. I have another roomie that is here from El Salvadore...he speaks pretty good english and he is here legally to boot!

Depending on how a person behaves and works to contribute to our society, I am cautiously ok with some folks being here illegally. By that I mean if someone comes here, gets a job, grows some roots, and generally contributes to what makes America great then my attitude is more forgiving towards them being here illegally. I still think it's wrong and they should do whatever they can to get papers, but I can understand someone wanting to come here to make a better life for themself and their family. It's the ones who come here with no intent other than to live in a house jam packed with other illegals, with no intention of ever doing anything other than sending as much back to wherever they came from that get no mercy from me.

[Praxeas]

Part 4 especially is good

[Brother Strange]

I remember Lebanon very well in the 1960s, I was there. She is telling the truth, the absolute truth. I remember Lebanon exactly as she is describing it.

[Praxeas]

Where are the moderate Muslims? She answers in part 4 and 5....so far

[Brother Strange]

My God!

These videos blow my mind!

[Michlow]

Hate is hate. Usually unproductive and ill-informed. My son went to an international high school which had a significant number of Muslim students. I know of none that hated America and the few I got to know well, cut and bleed just like us.

And the reality was that most of the Muslims my son went to school with had a moral center that surpassed the average Americans (rather they claim to be Christian or not).

Nevertheless, morality doesn't a saved person make. The Muslims need to be won to Christ through friendship and prayer (just like anyone else). Christ died for them too.

But in the meantime; the concept of America is more inclusive than a group of people who only believe one way about God. Afterall, that was the oppression that the pilgrims escaped from in England, was it not? :cool:

You know I was thinking about this thread while on my treadmill this morning. I am currently reading a book called "Why I am a muslim" written by an american woman who was raised a muslim (in America).

And to be honest, the things that she writes is so far different than any impression I have ever gotten about Islam from the media, or Christian apologetics. And I started thinking, would I agree with the view of Christianity that muslims get from televangelists, or the pronouncements of the Pope, or their mormon co-worker, or 7th day adventist neighbor?

I mean seriously, even among apostolics we can't agree on what parts of the Bible are cultural and which are for today. What qualifies us to judge the religious writings and beliefs of a faith we are not apart of? Can we really judge the majority of muslims based on the taliban or al queda? Based on the extremists and fundamentalists?

[Brother Strange]

You know I was thinking about this thread while on my treadmill this morning. I am currently reading a book called "Why I am a muslim" written by an american woman who was raised a muslim (in America).

And to be honest, the things that she writes is so far different than any impression I have ever gotten about Islam from the media, or Christian apologetics. And I started thinking, would I agree with the view of Christianity that muslims get from televangelists, or the pronouncements of the Pope, or their mormon co-worker, or 7th day adventist neighbor?

I mean seriously, even among apostolics we can't agree on what parts of the Bible are cultural and which are for today. What qualifies us to judge the religious writings and beliefs of a faith we are not apart of? Can we really judge the majority of muslims based on the taliban or al queda? Based on the extremists and fundamentalists?

Extremist and fundamentalists is incongruous, an oxymoron to be exact.

Their bible (the Kohran) is the center, the foundation of their faith. It is extremist for them to be tolerant. To be true to their religion, they are obligated to take my and the heads of my family off or cut my throat from ear to ear. That is their CENTER.

I am surprised at all who have expressed sympathies toward this very, very wicked religion. I personally do not need to read any of their twisted books that depict how sweet and loving they are. All I need to read is the book of their foundation upon which they stand. That tells me enough.

[Michlow]

Extremist and fundamentalists is incongruous, an oxymoron to be exact.

Their bible (the Kohran) is the center, the foundation of their faith. It is extremist for them to be tolerant. To be true to their religion, they are obligated to take my and the heads of my family off or cut my throat from ear to ear. That is their CENTER.

I am surprised at all who have expressed sympathies toward this very, very wicked religion. I personally do not need to read any of their twisted books that depict how sweet and loving they are. All I need to read is the book of their foundation upon which they stand. That tells me enough.

Ahhh...and what would your response be to those who quote old testament passage where God commands to kill all of a certain people, including the women and children as evidence that Christians are militant killers?

[Brother Strange]

Ahhh...and what would your response be to those who quote old testament passage where God commands to kill all of a certain people, including the women and children as evidence that Christians are militant killers?

The dead give away would be the word "old." Too bad the Muslims do not have an OLD Quran.

[Michlow]

The dead give away would be the word "old." Too bad the Muslims do not have an OLD Quran.

Ok, and what about all the scriptures in the OLD testament that are used to prove MODERN day things....like homosexuality being an abomination or the "classic" women not wearing that which pertains to a man. What about the psalms, and the proverbs. Gonna throw all those out because they are in the "old" testament?

[Brother Strange]

God never changes. His grace and His mercies endures forever. There is no grace and mercy in the Quran. Homosexuality and other things that God called an abomination once, is still an abomination.

But then, there are a lot of wickeness in those that claim Christian religion, but I don't find too many of those wicked Christians trying to take my head off. Let us not lose the focus here. This is not about the wickness of Christians that are trying to subjugate the whole world by the edge of the sword...neither the Methodist or the Apostolics.

[Michlow]

God never changes. His grace and His mercies endures forever. There is no grace and mercy in the Quran. Homosexuality and other things that God called an abomination once, is still an abomination.

But then, there are a lot of wickeness in those that claim Christian religion, but I don't find too many of those wicked Christians trying to take my head off. Let us not lose the focus here. This is not about the wickness of Christians that are trying to subjugate the whole world by the edge of the sword...neither the Methodist or the Apostolics.

My point is that I don't think that that all muslims are trying to "subjugate the whole world by the edge of the sword". I think that is the work of a small percentage of extremists.

[Brother Strange]

My point is that I don't think that that all muslims are trying to "subjugate the whole world by the edge of the sword". I think that is the work of a small percentage of extremists.

For those you are defending, they will align themselves with the so called "few" when nudged by those who are commited to world domination. It is their bible. They will remain Muslims to the end, firmly rooted and grounded in their bible.

Granted, it is a small percentage. The best estimates by the CIA is about ten percent. That would make it over 400 million presently commited to take off my head. Somehow, I find it difficult to reconcile myself to the idea that some are here as their apologetics.

Though only ten percent, when restraints are gone, that ten percent will steer the thoughts and actions of the ninety percent, by force.

Sorry Mitch. It is an evil religion based fundamentally upon an evil document.

[Michlow]

For those you are defending, they will align themselves with the so called "few" when nudged by those who are commited to world domination. It is their bible. They will remain Muslims to the end, firmly rooted and grounded in their bible.

Granted, it is a small percentage. The best estimates by the CIA is about ten percent. That would make it over 400 million presently commited to take off my head. Somehow, I find it difficult to reconcile myself to the idea that some are here as their apologetics.

Though only ten percent, when restraints are gone, that ten percent will steer the thoughts and actions of the ninety percent, by force.

Sorry Mitch. It is an evil religion based fundamentally upon an evil document.

Bro. Strange, I do not intend any disrespect. However, if Apostolics who have studied the Bible the majority of their lives, cannot agree on everything it teaches (you and Bro. Epley for example), then how can you be expected to really know and understand what the qu'aran teaches? Or to expect that all muslims agree with your understanding?

I apologize if I am coming across as relativistic, I do not mean to imply that I believe the muslim faith is right. I don't.

Regarding the 10 Percent, blaming peaceful muslims for that 10% is like blaming me for the crusades, or blaming you for the spanish inquisition, or blaming Bro. Epley for the burning of witches in the middle ages. Not to mention the christian militias, or the white supremists that use to the Bible to propigate their hate.

I'm sorry, I just don't see it as black and white as you do.

[Praxeas]

Ahhh...and what would your response be to those who quote old testament passage where God commands to kill all of a certain people, including the women and children as evidence that Christians are militant killers?
lol...uh...those were Jews not Christians.
Jews don't even do that anymore, BUT are Muslims still beheading people, beating women for not wearing a carpet over them? Stoning a daughter for being raped by someone else? etc etc.

[Praxeas]

Regarding the 10 Percent, blaming peaceful muslims for that 10% is like blaming me for the crusades, or blaming you for the spanish inquisition, or blaming Bro. Epley for the burning of witches in the middle ages. Not to mention the christian militias, or the white supremists that use to the Bible to propigate their hate.

Nobody is blaming peaceful muslims for what the extremist do..however we see they will speak out about cartoons of the prophet Muhammed but not about what the 10% are doing.

BTW did you watch the video?

[Ferd]

I often see this "well there are christian extremeists" argument. Can someone show me one? There was the guy running around in the woods from the law after he shot some abortion doctors. they caught him, he is in jail because that is what we do with law breakers.

Christians who act like this are law breakers. we deal with them.

there was Tim Mcviegh. we put him to death. I dont know that he considered himself a christian acting out in the name of christianity. but again, we dont take to kindly to that kind of thing.


well that makes 2.

there were more than 2 muslims flying plane's into buildings. they win the numbers game.


beyond that, when given a chance for freedom, "non-extremeists" muslims vote to have governments based on Sheria (sp) law which says you should stone your own daughter if someone has sex with her, even if it is rape because that is an affront to your family.

these are the one like in Afghanistan who no longer are FORCED to live under dictators.

In Pakistan, hundreds of thousands are protesting the action of the dictator there, because he ousted a judge who is an out and out muslim extremeist.

Not 2. not 10. HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS.

In every country where muslims approach the 50% margin, violence breaks out as the muslims attempt to take control by violent means and dominate and distroy all who oppose them.

and we want to argue about "peaceful islam"

[Brother Strange]

[QUOTE=Michlow;196153]Bro. Strange, I do not intend any disrespect. However, if Apostolics who have studied the Bible the majority of their lives, cannot agree on everything it teaches (you and Bro. Epley for example), then how can you be expected to really know and understand what the qu'aran teaches? Or to expect that all muslims agree with your understanding?

Certainly I've read more of the Kohran than I care to. From their bible, I see how it is that they are so violent. In fact, if you were married to one and disobeyed your husband, you may expect a pretty sever beating. Their bible teaches them that.

But, it is not about how bad we are. We are discussing how bad THEY are. I understand the temptation to trash everything that I hold dear as an american and stand in defense of this wicked religion. The news media does it all the time. Everything is wrong with us. Let us tolerate them and try to understand. Meanwhile, the black tide of Islam is creeping all over the world, while you stand in defense of it, after reading one of their books.

I apologize if I am coming across as relativistic, I do not mean to imply that I believe the muslim faith is right. I don't.

You don't? Not right, but nothing wrong either?

Regarding the 10 Percent, blaming peaceful muslims for that 10% is like blaming me for the crusades, or blaming you for the spanish inquisition, or blaming Bro. Epley for the burning of witches in the middle ages. Not to mention the christian militias, or the white supremists that use to the Bible to propigate their hate.

This is really shocking. I would like to think that you are the only one in America that thinks like this. Unfortunately, I heard an athiest on T.V. a few nights ago, blame Christians for all that went wrong in the world. He never mentioned the evils of Islam...not even once.

I'm sorry, I just don't see it as black and white as you do.

I am just concerned about how many head will be chopped off before they finally get to my darling Christian grandchildren.

[Praxeas]

I often see this "well there are christian extremeists" argument. Can someone show me one? There was the guy running around in the woods from the law after he shot some abortion doctors. they caught him, he is in jail because that is what we do with law breakers.

Christians who act like this are law breakers. we deal with them.

there was Tim Mcviegh. we put him to death. I dont know that he considered himself a christian acting out in the name of christianity. but again, we dont take to kindly to that kind of thing.


well that makes 2.

there were more than 2 muslims flying plane's into buildings. they win the numbers game.


beyond that, when given a chance for freedom, "non-extremeists" muslims vote to have governments based on Sheria (sp) law which says you should stone your own daughter if someone has sex with her, even if it is rape because that is an affront to your family.

these are the one like in Afghanistan who no longer are FORCED to live under dictators.

In Pakistan, hundreds of thousands are protesting the action of the dictator there, because he ousted a judge who is an out and out muslim extremeist.

Not 2. not 10. HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS.

In every country where muslims approach the 50% margin, violence breaks out as the muslims attempt to take control by violent means and dominate and distroy all who oppose them.

and we want to argue about "peaceful islam"
Timothy as far as I knew, did not claim to be a Christian. Being a skin head does not mean someone claims to be a Christian

[Ferd]

Timothy as far as I knew, did not claim to be a Christian. Being a skin head does not mean someone claims to be a Christian

So now we are down to one.

[Brother Strange]

So now we are down to one.

Ferd...

You forgot about the Methodist. :killinme

[Timmy]

If Islam is wicked because it commands its followers to kill its (or God's, as they believe) enemies, then isn't the "true" religion (the worshipers of the one true God) of the OT also wicked? It also has instructed, at times, its followers to kill its (or God's) enemies. Its followers are told to kill rebellious children. God's armies have been commanded to show no compassion to babies and children, and to rape the women. God Himself has drowned men, women, and children. Think of the babies during the flood of Noah, panicking for air until losing consciousness and dying. Think of the pregnant women being slashed to pieces. Think of the Egyptian families when they woke to find their first-born children dead in their beds.

We can try to excuse these things any way we want, looking at the "greater good" or saying that God knows better than we do how to administer justice. If we believe the Bible literally, then how can we judge the Quran as evil, but not the Bible?

You say oh, that stuff is Old Testament -- it doesn't apply anymore. Fine, but it did "apply" at the time, didn't it? Was it evil then, or was it not? If it was evil, did God correct His OT "mistakes" in the new covenant? If it was not evil, then by what standard do we make the judgment that Islam is evil?

Disclaimer: I do not defend Islam in any way. I don't believe in their religion, and I do not believe the 10% (or whatever) that are extremists are in any way, shape, or form justified in killing infidels. I am addressing only the topic of how we judge the religion itself, based on its scriptures, as wicked. And: I'm just asking!

[Brother Strange]

Timmy...

Notice the word "old" in the term "old testament."

God's plan, for whatever dispensation, is always holy and just...then as it is today.

So, 3000 years ago is NOT today. Even in those days, the wicked were put to the sword. Even in those days, you and I would not have had our heads chopped off.

Today, the 10% that would chop of my head are in greater number than all the population of the USA. That's too many for me to be at happy with or at peace.

[Barb]

I haven't read this thread, but everytime I see the title, I'm a wondering...

Can a good American be a good Muslim?!

[Timmy]

Timmy...

Notice the word "old" in the term "old testament."

God's plan, for whatever dispensation, is always holy and just...then as it is today.

So, 3000 years ago is NOT today. Even in those days, the wicked were put to the sword. Even in those days, you and I would not have had our heads chopped off.

Today, the 10% that would chop of my head are in greater number than all the population of the USA. That's too many for me to be at happy with or at peace.

If the OT ways, including drowning babies (evil babies, of course!), were holy and just in that day, who is to say that Islam's ways are not holy and just, for this day? Of course, you and I don't believe Islam is "correct". It is a false religion. But from the Muslims' point of view, it is correct. Whether they really are correct or not is beside the point. Some here have passed judgment on it simply because of the harshness of their dealings with unbelievers. I agree it is harsh. I do not condone it. But God's dealings with unbelievers in OT times were just as harsh. And yet, we are supposed to believe that it was not evil. It was the opposite, in fact: holy and just. Sorry, I don't get it. (But then, I don't understand much at all, as you know!) Is the "correctness" question the real issue? Was it OK to kill babies and rape women in the OT times, simply because the orders came from the true God? Would it be wicked to do the same thing in the name of a false god? I guess I can see the logic there, but it's kind of pointless, considering the Muslims are just as convinced that they are right as Apostolics are.

[ReformedDave]

Timmy, the same God of the OT is the same of the NT. Before one goes and condemns God for His actions one must understand the purpose of His actions and it also helps to keep the story in it's context. One can use anything in abstraction.

[Praxeas]

If Islam is wicked because it commands its followers to kill its (or God's, as they believe) enemies, then isn't the "true" religion (the worshipers of the one true God) of the OT also wicked? It also has instructed, at times, its followers to kill its (or God's) enemies. Its followers are told to kill rebellious children. God's armies have been commanded to show no compassion to babies and children, and to rape the women. God Himself has drowned men, women, and children. Think of the babies during the flood of Noah, panicking for air until losing consciousness and dying. Think of the pregnant women being slashed to pieces. Think of the Egyptian families when they woke to find their first-born children dead in their beds.

We can try to excuse these things any way we want, looking at the "greater good" or saying that God knows better than we do how to administer justice. If we believe the Bible literally, then how can we judge the Quran as evil, but not the Bible?

You say oh, that stuff is Old Testament -- it doesn't apply anymore. Fine, but it did "apply" at the time, didn't it? Was it evil then, or was it not? If it was evil, did God correct His OT "mistakes" in the new covenant? If it was not evil, then by what standard do we make the judgment that Islam is evil?

Disclaimer: I do not defend Islam in any way. I don't believe in their religion, and I do not believe the 10% (or whatever) that are extremists are in any way, shape, or form justified in killing infidels. I am addressing only the topic of how we judge the religion itself, based on its scriptures, as wicked. And: I'm just asking!
Islam is wicked because......sorry Timmy but that is the wrong question and wrong issue. Islam is a religion that has followers in large numbers that believe they are justified in cutting off your head because you are not muslim...when they are about to draw the blade across your neck...is whether or not it's a wicked religion really the issue?

Why do so many people here deal in emotion and not facts? The fact is Islam has been and still is a religion that by and large condones the persecution of non-muslims, either by limiting their freedoms or just plain killing them for not being muslim. Of course, as has been said, not all practice it and not all condone it, but little has changed for Islam in the last several hundred years..

I don't fear Jews coming after me with a sword because I am a Christian, despite what the OT says.

Additionally the enemies of Israel or God were not those nations that minded their own business. They were enemies that came AFTER Israel or were in their land. It was not Israel's job to conquer and impose Judaism on the rest of the world by sword or political take over.

[Brother Strange]

Islam is wicked because......sorry Timmy but that is the wrong question and wrong issue. Islam is a religion that has followers in large numbers that believe they are justified in cutting off your head because you are not muslim...when they are about to draw the blade across your neck...is whether or not it's a wicked religion really the issue?

Why do so many people here deal in emotion and not facts? The fact is Islam has been and still is a religion that by and large condones the persecution of non-muslims, either by limiting their freedoms or just plain killing them for not being muslim. Of course, as has been said, not all practice it and not all condone it, but little has changed for Islam in the last several hundred years..

I don't fear Jews coming after me with a sword because I am a Christian, despite what the OT says.

Additionally the enemies of Israel or God were not those nations that minded their own business. They were enemies that came AFTER Israel or were in their land. It was not Israel's job to conquer and impose Judaism on the rest of the world by sword or political take over.

This is a very good post. Thanks

[Praxeas]

Thank you. We need to be realistic. I don't know how these sort of arguments start, but Im not trying to villify Islamics. We need to look at facts, present day and historical facts. Pointing at the bible and going "Yeah? Yeah? Well...what about this Huh?" just doesn't deal with the reality of the problem we are facing right now and in the near future

[Timmy]

Timmy, the same God of the OT is the same of the NT. Before one goes and condemns God for His actions one must understand the purpose of His actions and it also helps to keep the story in it's context. One can use anything in abstraction.

Abstraction? What's abstract about killing a child? The context? God hardened Pharaoh's heart, so he would not give the Israelites their freedom. Undoubtedly, some of those first-born children were just toddlers. Some were older. Some were infants. Didn't matter. Pharaoh, because God hardened his heart, had to be punished, along with all his subjects. The people themselves loved the Israelites! Gave them silver and gold, for the asking! Didn't matter. They had to be punished for Pharaoh's hard heart. The one that God gave him. There was death in every house that night.

The purpose? Why did God make Pharaoh so stubborn? He tells us why in Exodus 10:

1 "Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials so that I may perform these miraculous signs of mine among them 2 that you may tell your children and grandchildren how I dealt harshly with the Egyptians and how I performed my signs among them, and that you may know that I am the LORD."

Oh, well then. That makes it OK.

[Rico]

I have been trying for two nights to listen to everything that Lebanese woman was saying and have been distracted to the point of running out of time. I am going to listen to the rest of what she said tomorrow. She was really running on all eight cylinders, huh? Just from what I have heard so far, all I can say is WOW!!!

[Timmy]

Islam is wicked because......sorry Timmy but that is the wrong question and wrong issue. Islam is a religion that has followers in large numbers that believe they are justified in cutting off your head because you are not muslim...when they are about to draw the blade across your neck...is whether or not it's a wicked religion really the issue?

Why do so many people here deal in emotion and not facts? The fact is Islam has been and still is a religion that by and large condones the persecution of non-muslims, either by limiting their freedoms or just plain killing them for not being muslim. Of course, as has been said, not all practice it and not all condone it, but little has changed for Islam in the last several hundred years..

I don't fear Jews coming after me with a sword because I am a Christian, despite what the OT says.

Additionally the enemies of Israel or God were not those nations that minded their own business. They were enemies that came AFTER Israel or were in their land. It was not Israel's job to conquer and impose Judaism on the rest of the world by sword or political take over.

I was responding to Bro Strange's contention that Islam is a wicked religion because the Quran prescribes horrible things, like beheading non-Muslims. (Sorry I didn't quote him, for context, and he's free to correct me if I got it wrong. See post #61.) If that's how to judge one religion, why shouldn't it work for another?

And I am dealing in facts that have emotional impact. So what? If my child were killed by God, I'd have an emotional reaction, you better believe it!

Again, let me stress: I am not defending Islam, neither the 10% nor the 90%. Just wondering about what looks to me like a double standard.

Speaking of double standard, how does your comment about a blade to my neck not qualify as an emotive argument? You sure like to throw that accusation around!

[Praxeas]

I was responding to Bro Strange's contention that Islam is a wicked religion because the Quran prescribes horrible things, like beheading non-Muslims. (Sorry I didn't quote him, for context, and he's free to correct me if I got it wrong. See post #61.) If that's how to judge one religion, why shouldn't it work for another?

And I am dealing in facts that have emotional impact. So what? If my child were killed by God, I'd have an emotional reaction, you better believe it!

Again, let me stress: I am not defending Islam, neither the 10% nor the 90%. Just wondering about what looks to me like a double standard.

Speaking of double standard, how does your comment about a blade to my neck not qualify as an emotive argument? You sure like to throw that accusation around!
As I said, hopefully we can get BACK to the issue at hand. This is not imagination. This is a relevant issue for TODAY. It's happening RIGHT NOW. To treat it in such a way is to minimize the issue. It's real. It's a growing threat and danger to the entire world, let alone Christians.

[Timmy]

As I said, hopefully we can get BACK to the issue at hand. This is not imagination. This is a relevant issue for TODAY. It's happening RIGHT NOW. To treat it in such a way is to minimize the issue. It's real. It's a growing threat and danger to the entire world, let alone Christians.

Not sure how anything I said minimized the issue. But I agree it's a growing threat and danger. Is the purpose of this thread to brainstorm on how to deal with it? :noidea

[Brother Strange]

Again, let me stress: I am not defending Islam, neither the 10% nor the 90%. Just wondering about what looks to me like a double standard.


Couldn't prove it by me.

After all, who and what is more wicked than the judeao/christian culture? You can never tell when another Presbyterian is going to slam a plane into a packed building on a Monday morning. Watch those Methodist and Mormons. They will do you in every time.

[Ferd]

Abstraction? What's abstract about killing a child? The context? God hardened Pharaoh's heart, so he would not give the Israelites their freedom. Undoubtedly, some of those first-born children were just toddlers. Some were older. Some were infants. Didn't matter. Pharaoh, because God hardened his heart, had to be punished, along with all his subjects. The people themselves loved the Israelites! Gave them silver and gold, for the asking! Didn't matter. They had to be punished for Pharaoh's hard heart. The one that God gave him. There was death in every house that night.

The purpose? Why did God make Pharaoh so stubborn? He tells us why in Exodus 10:

1 "Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials so that I may perform these miraculous signs of mine among them 2 that you may tell your children and grandchildren how I dealt harshly with the Egyptians and how I performed my signs among them, and that you may know that I am the LORD."

Oh, well then. That makes it OK.


Timmy, you are going to take a 3500 year old account to argue moral equivelence with MODERN Islamic fundementalism? that dont make no sense.

[Timmy]

Couldn't prove it by me.

After all, who and what is more wicked than the judeao/christian culture? You can never tell when another Presbyterian is going to slam a plane into a packed building on a Monday morning. Watch those Methodist and Mormons. They will do you in every time.

I'm pretty thick-skinned, so this outrageous insult just rolls off. If it makes you happy to think I am defending Islamic terrorists, carry on.

Timmy, you are going to take a 3500 year old account to argue moral equivelence with MODERN Islamic fundementalism? that dont make no sense.

What??? How long ago does something have to have happened before it becomes irrelevant? Do you guys really believe the Bible or don't you? Hop into a time machine and set the dial for that "passover" night. Find an Egyptian home at midnight, or the next morning. Is there a mom and dad sobbing uncontrollably, or not? Go back to Noah's time, just as the flood starts. Are there people drowning, fighting for breath, and dying, or not? Go watch God's wrath poured out on babies and pregnant women. Watch God's warriors rape those evil women, under orders.

"God never changes" you say? Well, if the OT accounts are accurate, I, for one, am glad He did change! (Get nit-picky, if you like: He didn't change, His way of dealing with people changed. Fine. I'm glad for that.)

As I said, hopefully we can get BACK to the issue at hand. This is not imagination. This is a relevant issue for TODAY. It's happening RIGHT NOW. To treat it in such a way is to minimize the issue. It's real. It's a growing threat and danger to the entire world, let alone Christians.

Imagination. Just as I thought. You guys have trouble believing the horrors attributed to God in the OT, don't you.

[Brother Strange]

[QUOTE=Timmy;197846]I'm pretty thick-skinned, so this outrageous insult just rolls off. If it makes you happy to think I am defending Islamic terrorists, carry on.

Sorry that you thought I was insulting you. It just appeared that you are stoutly defending them while placing the onus on the Jews and Christians. Speaking just from my perspective alone.

But, no insult was intended at all.

You guys have trouble believing the horrors attributed to God in the OT, don't you.

See. Here you do it again.

If my remark was considered an insult, this statement leaves me totally confused if you are not defending the Islamic terrorist.

I gotta be missing something...somewhere. I'm just judging from appearance.

[Ferd]

What??? How long ago does something have to have happened before it becomes irrelevant? Do you guys really believe the Bible or don't you? Hop into a time machine and set the dial for that "passover" night. Find an Egyptian home at midnight, or the next morning. Is there a mom and dad sobbing uncontrollably, or not? Go back to Noah's time, just as the flood starts. Are there people drowning, fighting for breath, and dying, or not? Go watch God's wrath poured out on babies and pregnant women. Watch God's warriors rape those evil women, under orders.

How long? Less than half a generation. How is that for an answer.

I don’t need to shrink away from the OT or what God did to see that does not apply as a comparison between modern day Islamic fundamentalists and Christians.

And Gods actions in the OT were not based on whim. Pharaoh hardened his own heart before God turned him to his doom.

The people in Noah's day had 300 years of hearing the preacher before God rained destruction on them.

Your moral equivalence game is silly.

[Timmy]

[QUOTE]

Sorry that you thought I was insulting you. It just appeared that you are stoutly defending them while placing the onus on the Jews and Christians. Speaking just from my perspective alone.

But, no insult was intended at all.

OK, no prob. Still don't see how you got that from my posts, but fine.




See. Here you do it again.

If my remark was considered an insult, this statement leaves me totally confused if you are not defending the Islamic terrorist.

I gotta be missing something...somewhere. I'm just judging from appearance.

I am not saying Islam isn't evil.

I am just wondering why the religion of the OT is not considered evil. That it happened thousands of years ago is irrelevant. I think the only possibilites are:

1. God did evil things back then, but He doesn't anymore (presumably).

2. Those things are not evil. Killing babies, rape, and slashing pregnant women are holy and just, in the right context.

3. God didn't really do those things or give those orders. The Bible is wrong, in those places.

Are there others?

[Timmy]

How long? Less than half a generation. How is that for an answer.


Uh, if you're serious, Hitler was longer ago than a half generation. Are his doings irrelevant now?



I don’t need to shrink away from the OT or what God did to see that does not apply as a comparison between modern day Islamic fundamentalists and Christians.

And Gods actions in the OT were not based on whim. Pharaoh hardened his own heart before God turned him to his doom.


Not that it matters (it was so long ago), but I don't see that in the Bible. I see God hardening his heart, from the beginning of Moses' dealings with him about setting God's people free. Exodus 4:21. And he did this several times, and the reason was to show everyone who was boss. For a chance to do wonderful miracles (plagues, including the first-born killings).



The people in Noah's day had 300 years of hearing the preacher before God rained destruction on them.



And what reason would they have had to believe him?



Your moral equivalence game is silly.

If you say so.

[Praxeas]

Not sure how anything I said minimized the issue. But I agree it's a growing threat and danger. Is the purpose of this thread to brainstorm on how to deal with it? :noidea
Are you intending again here to minimize the important issue by being trite?

[Praxeas]

Imagination. Just as I thought. You guys have trouble believing the horrors attributed to God in the OT, don't you.
Like I said. I feel vindicated. Timmy you are appearing more and more to be exactly you claim you are not or are not doing. Back to the TOPIC please. the relevant topic. Stop attempting to minimize this growing imminent threat with the obfuscation and red herrings

[Timmy]

Are you intending again here to minimize the important issue by being trite?

"Again"? Show me where I minimized the issue in any way whatsoever. If you are referring to the "no idea" icon, sorry. Not intended to be trite. Just indicating that I have no idea how to deal with the problem today.

[Timmy]

Like I said. I feel vindicated. Timmy you are appearing more and more to be exactly you claim you are not or are not doing. Back to the TOPIC please. the relevant topic. Stop attempting to minimize this growing imminent threat with the obfuscation and red herrings

OK. I will stop attempting to minimize this growing imminent threat. Sigh.

Yeah, you guys caught me. I love those terrorists. I jumped for joy on 9/11/01.

In case you didn't catch it, that was sarcasm! The following is not:

Let's see. The topic. OK, I agree with Bro Strange that, if the Quran instructs its followers to kill non-Muslims, it's evil. I am not being trite, not sarcastic, and I'm not kidding. It is evil.

You happy?

[Praxeas]

"Again"? Show me where I minimized the issue in any way whatsoever. If you are referring to the "no idea" icon, sorry. Not intended to be trite. Just indicating that I have no idea how to deal with the problem today.
Originally Posted by Timmy http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?p=197620#post197620)
Is the purpose of this thread to brainstorm on how to deal with it? :noidea

That is how....what difference does it make of the purpose? It's a discussion and an issue. It seems from the beginning that you keep trying to railroad the discussion. Here the underlying suggestion is perhaps we can't do anything so lets just ignore it and talk about how the bible has stuff in it...perhaps I am wrong, but I'm not the only one that notices this

[Praxeas]

OK. I will stop attempting to minimize this growing imminent threat. Sigh.
See? Again you have this cavalier attitude.....maybe you just don't realize how the way you are posting here seems like you are attempting sarcasm and by doing that it seems you are saying you DON'T see it as a growing imminent threat.

Yeah, you guys caught me. I love those terrorists. I jumped for joy on 9/11/01.
Your defensive sarcasm is not helping your.

In case you didn't catch it, that was sarcasm! The following is not:
THAT has been my point!

Let's see. The topic. OK, I agree with Bro Strange that, if the Quran instructs its followers to kill non-Muslims, it's evil. I am not being trite, not sarcastic, and I'm not kidding. It is evil.

You happy?
That is NOT the topic. The topic is not "does the Quran instructing it's followers to kill non-muslims make it evil"

Wow.

[Ferd]

Uh, if you're serious, Hitler was longer ago than a half generation. Are his doings irrelevant now?



Not that it matters (it was so long ago), but I don't see that in the Bible. I see God hardening his heart, from the beginning of Moses' dealings with him about setting God's people free. Exodus 4:21. And he did this several times, and the reason was to show everyone who was boss. For a chance to do wonderful miracles (plagues, including the first-born killings).



And what reason would they have had to believe him?



If you say so.

Timmy read Exodus 6. God didnt harden Pharoh's heart until Pharoh refused to listen.

my mind is boggled that you still think this is a good way to suggest that there is no differnece between Christians and Muslims of today. that is just wierd.

[Praxeas]

:koolaid

[Timmy]

See? Again you have this cavalier attitude.....maybe you just don't realize how the way you are posting here seems like you are attempting sarcasm and by doing that it seems you are saying you DON'T see it as a growing imminent threat.


Your defensive sarcasm is not helping your.


THAT has been my point!


That is NOT the topic. The topic is not "does the Quran instructing it's followers to kill non-muslims make it evil"

Wow.

Nobody complained when Bro Strange made that assertion about the Quran. Was that on topic? If so, then how is it off topic to challenge that assertion, based on the lack of using the same criteria for the Bible? I suspect it's simply a matter of not wanting to address an uncomfortable question. I see that a lot, here.

As for asking if the purpose was brainstorming, it was an honest question, in response to your taking me to task. (The smilie was unwise, in hindsight.) You informed me that the problem is not imaginary. (Never said it was, but it seems you were contrasting today's real problem with the Bible stories I brought up. Wow.) You said it's an urgent issue for today, and we should get back on topic. As if this thread had some mission. I mean, come on. It's a discussion!

[Timmy]

Nobody complained when Bro Strange made that assertion about the Quran. Was that on topic? If so, then how is it off topic to challenge that assertion, based on the lack of using the same criteria for the Bible? I suspect it's simply a matter of not wanting to address an uncomfortable question. I see that a lot, here.

As for asking if the purpose was brainstorming, it was an honest question, in response to your taking me to task. (The smilie was unwise, in hindsight.) You informed me that the problem is not imaginary. (Never said it was, but it seems you were contrasting today's real problem with the Bible stories I brought up. Wow.) You said it's an urgent issue for today, and we should get back on topic. As if this thread had some mission. I mean, come on. It's a discussion!

Bolded part: poor choice of words, on my part. I was not challenging the assertion itself. As I've said, I agree with it. I was challenging the double standard. Thought I'd better clarify. (Guess I could have edited, but someone may have picked it up before, so thought I'd post instead.)

[Timmy]

Timmy read Exodus 6. God didnt harden Pharoh's heart until Pharoh refused to listen.



I reread it just now. I see where the Israelites would not listen to Moses (v 9), and Moses doubts that he will listen (12 and 30), but I don't see Pharaoh refusing to listen. Can you pinpoint it for me?


my mind is boggled that you still think this is a good way to suggest that there is no differnece between Christians and Muslims of today. that is just wierd.

Never said that. Never said anything like it.

[iceniez]

I don't know if this is the right place for this .I guess it relates in a way .Most muslims I have encountered have been polite and friendly genuinely nice. One of the families in our development we even became close to .[ the wife would mke dinner for us and bring it over] however they moved away.They knew we are christian and respected that [mostly they said we are different that "most christians" their words not mine] One guy I worked with knew my friend and I are christians and when He was going back to the Middle East he told us to just keep praying to YOUR GOD because what is going to happen is going to happen. [ this was a few years before 9/11]. I guess the real point is Where does the loyalties lie of the individual .Our job is to inpact them for the true God and show them there is a better way.

[Aaren]

i totally disagree with this, this has been written by someone who don't even know what is Islam, Islam never says that don't make a friends of different religion but it teach us to respect other religion it never instructed to marry a 4 women and beet her instead man has to respect the women and also help her in all house hold works before posting a thread please read about Islam you will get a Quraan (English translation) in market
----------
Aaren

Search Engine Marketing (http://www.drivenwide.com)

[Praxeas]

i totally disagree with this, this has been written by someone who don't even know what is Islam, Islam never says that don't make a friends of different religion but it teach us to respect other religion it never instructed to marry a 4 women and beet her instead man has to respect the women and also help her in all house hold works before posting a thread please read about Islam you will get a Quraan (English translation) in market
----------
Aaren

Search Engine Marketing (http://www.drivenwide.com)
The Quran and the Hadiths.

Islam teaches that women are inferior to men.

"...And women shall have rights similar to the rights against them, according to what is equitable; but men have a degree over them..." Surah 2:228

Islam teaches that a wife is subject to punishment by her husband. As a punishment, beating a wife or abstaining from sexual relations with her is allowed.

"...As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, Admonish them, refuse to share their beds, beat them,..." Surah 4:34

"For those who take an oath for abstention from their wives, a waiting for four months is ordained; if they return, God is oft-forgiving, most merciful." Surah 2:226

Islam allows polygamy: A man may marry up to four wives at one time.

"...Marry women of your choice, two,or three, or four..." Surah 4:3

Note: Extra privileges were given to Mohammed, "The Prophet of Islam." He was allowed unlimited wives. Mohammed had 13 wives in addition to several concubines which we know of for a fact.

Ayesha was only nine years old at the time he married her, Mohammed was fifty-three years old. Another wife, Zaynab Bint Jahsh, was his daughter-in-law. When Zaid, Mohammed's adopted son, saw that Mohammed desired his wife, he divorced her so that Mohammed could marry her

Islam compels its adherents to force others to accept Islam. Muslims must fight until all their opponents submit to Islam, unless, of course, those opponents prefer death. Christians and Jews may be spared if they pay "Jizya" (penalty tax) with willing submission, and humiliation.

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the last day... Nor acknowledge the religion of truth, (even if they are) of the people of the Book, until they pay the Jizya (taxes) with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued." Surah 9:29

"But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait (ambush) for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity then open the way for them." Surah 9:5 (see also Surah 2:193)

"Therefore; when ye meet the unbelievers (in a fight) smite at their necks; at length;
when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly in (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom, until the war lays down its burdens." Surah 47:4

Islam teaches that Muslims are superior to others.

"Ye (Muslims) are the best of peoples, evolved for mankind..." Surah 3:110



Islam condemns non-Muslims, other than Christians and Jews, as infidels.

"The life of this world is alluring to those who reject faith (infidels), and they scoff at
those who believe. But the righteous will be above them on the day of resurrection..." Surah 2:212
Neither do Christians and Jews escape Islam's condemnation.

"The Jews call Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah.
That is a saying from their mouths; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers
(infidels) of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the truth!" Surah 9:30
Islam instructs Muslims to not befriend Jews or Christians.

"O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors. They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is one of them. Allah guideth not a people unjust." Surah 5:51




Islam imposes a harsh code of punishment on those who violate its laws. Here are some examples:

Resisting Islam: punished by death, crucifixion or the cutting off of the hands and feet.

"The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Apostle, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of the hands and feet from opposite sides or exile from the land..." Surah 5:33
Adultery and Fornication: punished by public flogging for the unmarried person. For the married, the punishment is stoning.

"The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication, flog each of them with a hundred stripes; let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by Allah, if ye believe in Allah and the Last Day; and let a party of the believers witness their punishment." Surah 24:2
Stealing: punished by amputation of the hands.

"As to the thief, male or female, cut off his or her hands: A punishment, by way of example, from Allah for their crime: and Allah is exalted in power." Surah 5:38
Drinking: punished by 40 to 80 lashes according to the Hadith (Mohammed's sayings). - See Sahih al-Bukhari vol. 8:770


Islam forbids wine.

"O ye who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, stones and arrows, are an abomination, of Satan's handiwork: Eschew such that you may prosper." Surah 5:90
Ironically, the faithful are promised "rivers of wine" in Paradise.

"The garden which the righteous are promised...in it are rivers of wine, a joy to those who drink..." Surah 47:15

"...truly the righteous will be in bliss,,, their thirst will be slaked with pure wine sealed." Surah 83:22, 25




Islam teaches that "fate" decides everyone's eternal destination.

"Every man's fate We have fastened on his own neck: on the day of Judgment We shall bring out for him a scroll which he will see spread open." Surah 17:13
The Quran teaches that every Muslim will pass through hell.

"Not one of you but will pass over it (originally: through it [hell]). This is a decree which must be accomplished." Surah 19:71
The only assurance for a Muslim to go to heaven is through fighting for the cause of spreading Islam and being martyred in the process.

"And if ye are slain, or die in the way of Allah, forgiveness and mercy from Allah are far better than all they could amass." Surah 3: 157

Heaven in Islam is the place where a Muslim man will be reclining, eating meat and delicious fruits, drinking exquisite wines, and engaging in sex with beautiful women, (and eternally-young beautiful boys or young men "Wildan or Ghilman," (according to some Muslim theologians). There is no mention of women's rewards.

"As to the righteous, they will be in gardens, and in happiness...(to them will be said:) "Eat and drink ye, with profit and health, because of your (good) deeds." They will recline (with ease) on thrones (of dignity) arranged in ranks; and We shall join them (in the original: marry them) to companions with beautiful, big and lustrous eyes... And We shall bestow on them, of fruit and meat, anything they desire. They shall there exchange, one with another, a cup free of frivolity, free of all taint of ill. Round about them will serve to them youths (handsome) as pearls well-guarded." Surah 52:17, 19, 20, 22-24 (see also Surah 4:57; Surah 76:12-22; Surah 55:54-56; and Surah 47:15)

[Antipas]

Praxeas, Islam is a really big religion with differing schools of interpretation, just like Christianity. One cannot just take verses from the Quran and proof-text and give an accurate picture of the religion's true teachings. For example, what if someone took verses from the Old Testament where God commanded the Israelites not to spare a single soul, killing all enemies in the promised land, be they men, women, or children? One could take verses such as those and characterize our God as terribly brutal. However, theologically speaking, when the entire picture is examined we see that though God's means were very brutal, it wasn't meant to be something eternally espoused as a course of action and we see the battles in context. Much in Islam is the same way.

Some Muslims believe that the militant Jihad was essentially only for Muhammed's generation and that today that Jihad is a battle of ideals. Others are blood thirsty fundamentalists that take it literally to be applied throughout all generations and so we see the extremism we see today.

Even the King James Version commands that adulterers be stoned. Some Christians (Reconstructionists) want to see these laws imposed in modern times. Other more moderate Christians see them in their covenantal or dispensational context. Same with some schools in Islam.

Let's be even handed when dealing with Islam. Much of what you say might be true for one who is an Islamic fundamentalist who takes the Quran to an extreme, but it's not true of the over all religion itself.

As for Islam's view of Heaven.....I was a little bummed. They get to recline in paradise with beautiful virgins...and all I get is this silly white robe and eternal celebacy. lol

[ILG]

I have a co-worker who is a Muslim. She is a great person, she practices a different faith. I may not agree but she doesn't hold Christianity against me. She isn't fundamentalist. Her husband has a Ph.D. in anthropology and she said "It's all the same".

[the fighter]

the person whose allegiance is to Allah, the God of all people quits unequity
no other religion is accepted by his Allah except Islam in Domesday but in the Livingness in islam people must respected other people whatever their Religion is and muslims are Well-mannered
five pillars ... i don't know what you mean
his allegiance is to Mecca , to which he turns in prayer five times a day... that makes confederation betwixt all muslims in all the worlds and that doesn't affects on his allegiance to his home
Islam doesn't forbids muslims to make friends with Christians or Jews but when jews in Palestine killed the people and take their home how could he like him and be his friend???
the spiritual leaders do that because you all know what Israel do in Palestine and the last Government allow Israel to do what it do !...
marry four womem sometimes is good e.g : when their is a war and many men killed women and child will be lonely and can do nothing so when the man is marry that woman with her children he gave her and her children a house and money to live....
whatever I said is not enough about how great is Islam and if the leaders of thw world take their roules from Quran all the world's problems will end...

[Antipas]

My director is Muslim and is one of the finest men I know. We even have Muslim soldiers and chaplains risking their lives fighting terrorism in the Middle East. So yes, a Muslim can be a good American.

However, don't be naive... a large number have their sights on political jihad in the United States. Of course... who wouldn't expect that. Even Christians have tried to shape the laws of the land via politics to align them with our religious values. Since Islam is the fastest growing religion in America, and world wide, we should ask ourselves.... how much religion do we want in government, because one day it might be Islamic religion that is becoming the moving force in American politics. This is why Christians need to take a solid stand for the separation of religion from the state. Secular government can act as a protective buffer for us all... if we tear down the walls between church and state... we leave the door wide open for Islamic believers.

[areyourucky]

Any Islam country is ruled with wrath and fear. If islam is so pure on wine and beer, why do 90% of C- stores owned by Islam owners sell beer,wine , porn and anything else to make a buck. Name a place where it is dangerous to live, and islam is there.
More islam, more hate and killing.

[DebraBunnyLuv]

No offense but this topic is rather silly...sort of like a bunch of Apostolics trying to decide whether or not a trinitarian can be a good Christian.

Islam is a complex and multifaceted religion infused with many cultural influences. You find a wide range of individuals from fanatical jihadists to those who sincerely try to apply their faith to those who are wordly and apathetic.

Liberal fearmongers are stirring up similar fears of 'right wing Christians' as if we are all these little soldiers bent on patriarchal domination and theocracy. Being stereotyped really stinks.

[Walks_in_islam]

Funny you would say that: From Columbia (#1 in murders per capita) to the United States (#24) followed by Armenia and India there are no muslim countries in that "top 25" list. Yemen falls after India. Next Muslim country is Malaysia at #34 then Indonesia way down at #57. Indeed Saudi Arabia and Qatar are dead last at #61 and #62 respectively.

Of course the US leads the world in per capita behind bars. Must because it is so safe......

I will now name places where it is dangerous to live:

Violent death rate per 100,000

Iraq: Height of the war in 2006: 27.51

Also in 2006

New Orleans: 53.1
Washington DC: 45.0
Detroit: 41.8
Baltimore: 37.7
Atlanta: 34.9
St Louis: 31.4

Places are now named. You now have the opportunity to elaborate on your brilliant post.

Any Islam country is ruled with wrath and fear. If islam is so pure on wine and beer, why do 90% of C- stores owned by Islam owners sell beer,wine , porn and anything else to make a buck. Name a place where it is dangerous to live, and islam is there.
More islam, more hate and killing.

[Thomas Trini]

Funny you would say that: From Columbia (#1 in murders per capita) to the United States (#24) followed by Armenia and India there are no muslim countries in that "top 25" list. Yemen falls after India. Next Muslim country is Malaysia at #34 then Indonesia way down at #57. Indeed Saudi Arabia and Qatar are dead last at #61 and #62 respectively.


Does that number (of murders in Muslim countries) include Christians who are executed for believing in something other than Allah? I doubt it.

[Walks_in_islam]

Data is data and is generated on secular sites. It is public information and you are quite free to research your own. Of course and as usual you bring nothing, know nothing, and have nothing of value to share except for your "doubts". Doubts dont change data.

SO: How many christians executed for any reason in saudi arabia in 2009? none. How many killed randomly right back in the good ole US of A? thousands. Does motive matter? Is not the victim just as dead? The poster claimed "name a place that is dangerous to live...." and the places are neatly listed in order of their "dangerousness". In developed countries Saudi and Qatar are dead last. They happen to be (2) of the most conservative muslim countries out there. The numbers do not support the "dangerousness" claim.

No matter how many "muslims" sell liquor in their stores or turn poppy seed into goodies the liquor still tends to find its way down the gullets and the dope up the noses of "christian" countries. Which means - until your own backyard is cleaned up and YOUR neighborhoods are down at #62 then it would probably be a good idea to set up a mirror and determine what changes need to be made to make the image that mirror look better before publicly puking this smelly nonsense.

Summary: What you think or feel actually has no bearing on factual data. When one's beliefs fall outside the realm of factual information then these beliefs are known as delusions. LOL....


Does that number (of murders in Muslim countries) include Christians who are executed for believing in something other than Allah? I doubt it.

[Thomas Trini]

Data is data and is generated on secular sites. It is public information and you are quite free to research your own. Of course and as usual you bring nothing, know nothing, and have nothing of value to share except for your "doubts". Doubts dont change data.

SO: How many christians executed for any reason in saudi arabia in 2009? none. How many killed randomly right back in the good ole US of A? thousands. Does motive matter? Is not the victim just as dead? The poster claimed "name a place that is dangerous to live...." and the places are neatly listed in order of their "dangerousness". In developed countries Saudi and Qatar are dead last. They happen to be (2) of the most conservative muslim countries out there. The numbers do not support the "dangerousness" claim.

No matter how many "muslims" sell liquor in their stores or turn poppy seed into goodies the liquor still tends to find its way down the gullets and the dope up the noses of "christian" countries. Which means - until your own backyard is cleaned up and YOUR neighborhoods are down at #62 then it would probably be a good idea to set up a mirror and determine what changes need to be made to make the image that mirror look better before publicly puking this smelly nonsense.

Summary: What you think or feel actually has no bearing on factual data. When one's beliefs fall outside the realm of factual information then these beliefs are known as delusions. LOL....Please go to "The Voice of the Martyrs" website for better information than this. It's filled with scores of news reports in a number of countries that contradict your assertions.

[Walks_in_islam]

For free you can visit any number of secular websites - some UN based, some US based, and research statistics to your heart's content. Filed and noted is your lack of a single number from ANY site anywhere that indicates that the rankings above are inaccurate. I am not stunned that you, once again, have no number, statistic, fact, figure, or basis for your opinion.

YOU bring some "pay to read about someone's suffering" christian website. (laughing) it figures that a group of modern christians could turn the misfortune of others into a profit opportunity. Your "pay site" is respectfully declined.

QUOTE:

VOM's Persecuted Church Global Report 2010

Believers in hostile and restricted nations never fail to ask us to pray for them. But how do we pray? What are their needs? Use this booklet and prayer map as a window into their world. Each entry includes a brief description of a country where Christians suffer for their faith. Also included are photos and testimonies of persecuted believers. The global report also comes with a fold-out prayer map for the wall. This is an excellent resource for learning about persecution around the world. Join our brothers and sisters by interceding for them today.


Product Details
•Author: The Voice of the Martyrs
$ 5.00

[DividedThigh]

i think a muslim can be a good american, his faith doesnt make him a jihadist, his extreme views do if he has them, so yes is the answer, dt

[Thomas Trini]

Data is data and is generated on secular sites. It is public information and you are quite free to research your own. Of course and as usual you bring nothing, know nothing, and have nothing of value to share except for your "doubts". Doubts dont change data.

SO: How many christians executed for any reason in saudi arabia in 2009? none. How many killed randomly right back in the good ole US of A? thousands. Does motive matter? Is not the victim just as dead? The poster claimed "name a place that is dangerous to live...." and the places are neatly listed in order of their "dangerousness". In developed countries Saudi and Qatar are dead last. They happen to be (2) of the most conservative muslim countries out there. The numbers do not support the "dangerousness" claim.

No matter how many "muslims" sell liquor in their stores or turn poppy seed into goodies the liquor still tends to find its way down the gullets and the dope up the noses of "christian" countries. Which means - until your own backyard is cleaned up and YOUR neighborhoods are down at #62 then it would probably be a good idea to set up a mirror and determine what changes need to be made to make the image that mirror look better before publicly puking this smelly nonsense.

Summary: What you think or feel actually has no bearing on factual data. When one's beliefs fall outside the realm of factual information then these beliefs are known as delusions. LOL....Curious? Why you're selective of some data from such infidels as myself, but reject others. And VOM is not a paid site.

[Walks_in_islam]

As I said, data is published and is readily available from secular sites, for free. These secular sites merely publish various statistics from around the world and they are not sorted into, spun into, or formulated into political or religious agendas. They also do not profit, as your VOM site does, by selling stories of suffering. You offered the site. I checked it. It is not worth even $5 to me to buy their booklet, prayer map, or "brief description of countries".

On the other hand, the poster, who is noticably absent, proposed a relationship between "dangerousness" and Islam.

Direct quote: Name a place where it is dangerous to live, and islam is there.

Places to live were listed in order of published "dangerousness". Since neither you nor the poster bothered to list them I took the time to research them and listed them for you. Now, feel free to add something, elaborate, or explain the posted link. Or just admit you don't have anything valuable to offer that is good about your faith and you feel that there is more value in bashing the faith of others. Choose. Either way, as stated earlier, there is the data, it is neither political nor religious, and the sources are published and readily available on google or your search engine of choice.

And VOM is not a paid site.

From VOM website:

VOM's Persecuted Church Global Report 2010

Believers in hostile and restricted nations never fail to ask us to pray for them. But how do we pray? What are their needs? Use this booklet and prayer map as a window into their world. Each entry includes a brief description of a country where Christians suffer for their faith. Also included are photos and testimonies of persecuted believers. The global report also comes with a fold-out prayer map for the wall. This is an excellent resource for learning about persecution around the world. Join our brothers and sisters by interceding for them today.


Product Details
•Author: The Voice of the Martyrs
$ 5.00

Curious? Why you're selective of some data from such infidels as myself, but reject others. And VOM is not a paid site.

[Thomas Trini]

As I said, data is published and is readily available from secular sites, for free. These secular sites merely publish various statistics from around the world and they are not sorted into, spun into, or formulated into political or religious agendas. They also do not profit, as your VOM site does, by selling stories of suffering. You offered the site. I checked it. It is not worth even $5 to me to buy their booklet, prayer map, or "brief description of countries".

On the other hand, the poster, who is noticably absent, proposed a relationship between "dangerousness" and Islam.

Direct quote: Name a place where it is dangerous to live, and islam is there.

Places to live were listed in order of published "dangerousness". Since neither you nor the poster bothered to list them I took the time to research them and listed them for you. Now, feel free to add something, elaborate, or explain the posted link. Or just admit you don't have anything valuable to offer that is good about your faith and you feel that there is more value in bashing the faith of others. Choose. Either way, as stated earlier, there is the data, it is neither political nor religious, and the sources are published and readily available on google or your search engine of choice.

And VOM is not a paid site.

From VOM website:

VOM's Persecuted Church Global Report 2010

Believers in hostile and restricted nations never fail to ask us to pray for them. But how do we pray? What are their needs? Use this booklet and prayer map as a window into their world. Each entry includes a brief description of a country where Christians suffer for their faith. Also included are photos and testimonies of persecuted believers. The global report also comes with a fold-out prayer map for the wall. This is an excellent resource for learning about persecution around the world. Join our brothers and sisters by interceding for them today.


Product Details
•Author: The Voice of the Martyrs
$ 5.00 What I meant was, why do you accept the words/sources/data of infidels who are living in the country which is considered to be "The Great Satan (America)" on some occasions, but not others (e.g. VOM, Christian sources)? As to the booklet, I was merely referring to the scores of instances of persecution under Islamic regimes which can be seen on the website for free?

[Walks_in_islam]

(laughing) I did not use or even imagine these terms (infidel?, "great satan"?)

The data cross-references between various sources. Applying your data which after all is a collection of news stories for the purpose of raising money has exactly the same value and meaning as posting "name a place where it is dangerous for little boys to live and a christian minister is there" with the attached (so many new stories coming out arent they capn TP?) news stories to back up the claim.

Posting such claims in response is amusing but not realistic. Your site is interesting but the numbers dont really back up the claims do they sport?

What I meant was, why do you accept the words/sources/data of infidels who are living in the country which is considered to be "The Great Satan (America)" on some occasions, but not others (e.g. VOM, Christian sources)? As to the booklet, I was merely referring to the scores of instances of persecution under Islamic regimes which can be seen on the website for free?