*d-day: September 28th, 2007 - Conservatives Will Take The Hill*

[Nahum]

Disclaimer: This is just my opinion, and I have no insider information.

On September 28th, 2007, resolution four will go down in flames. Conservatives will win the battle in convincing fashion and tighten their hold on the org.

In the days leading up to this vote, and those immediately following, stories of lib/mod defections will become commonplace. They see the handwriting on the wall.

Again, this is just my opinion.

[DividedThigh]

wouldnt be surprised at all, the head in the sand crowd has ruled for many years my brother, dt

[revrandy]

I personally can't see the resolution passing...

[Amos]

I on the other hand think it will pass.

[Nahum]

The conservative base is much more energized.

I HAD felt that there was no way a true split would occur. I am not so sure any longer. Fissures are developing.

[CC1]

PP,

That has been my consistenet position all along. It will not pass.

[DividedThigh]

The conservative base is much more energized.

I HAD felt that there was no way a true split would occur. I am not so sure any longer. Fissures are developing.

i think you are right pp, my connections are well rooted in a wide spectrum in the upc , i am hearing what you are saying, dt:noidea

[revrandy]

The conservative base is much more energized.

I HAD felt that there was no way a true split would occur. I am not so sure any longer. Fissures are developing.

:D....

Sorry Man... I just thought this funny...

I heard there was a fissure somewhere in the heartland.. :D

[Barb]

I have neither insider info or stake, as far as licensing and all goes, but I do have an opinion...

In my inner beings I feel a shift coming...wouldn't necessarily call it a 'split', but I do feel a change, and it won't be over television.

It will be over doctrine...

[Nahum]

I have neither insider info or stake, as far as licensing and all goes, but I do have an opinion...

In my inner beings I feel a shift coming...wouldn't necessarily call it a 'split', but I do feel a change, and it won't be over television.

It will be over doctrine...

I can't say I disagree, but I wish I could.

[CC1]

I think Suber leaving the UPC while he was at his peak in it may encourage some other major or medium / major mods or libs to go ahead and leave when it does not pass.

[Malvaro]

I have neither insider info or stake, as far as licensing and all goes, but I do have an opinion...

In my inner beings I feel a shift coming...wouldn't necessarily call it a 'split', but I do feel a change, and it won't be over television.

It will be over doctrine...

interesting, what do you base that speculation over???

[Malvaro]

I think Suber leaving the UPC while he was at his peak in it may encourage some other major or medium / major mods or libs to go ahead and leave when it does not pass.

do you suspect most will go independant, join up with ALJC, or that some other new organization will be formed??

[tbpew]

Disclaimer: This is just my opinion, and I have no insider information.

On September 28th, 2007, resolution four will go down in flames. Conservatives will win the battle in convincing fashion and tighten their hold on the org.

In the days leading up to this vote, and those immediately following, stories of lib/mod defections will become commonplace. They see the handwriting on the wall.

Again, this is just my opinion.
If there is bona fide alternatives like NCO emerging as a new construct of a fellowship network rather than an organization with fidelity statements, all parties could be well served by the timing of things.

I am hoping your 'spidey senses' are accurate. Whatever is needed to move away from the silliness of human engagement defined by UL-Lib-Mod-Con-UC would serve unity among the membership within God's anointed body.

[Felicity]

I keep hearing about shifts and changes. They're inevitable really.

[DividedThigh]

I keep hearing about shifts and changes. They're inevitable really.

that is true sis, and sometimes for the better, dt:noidea

[Malvaro]

wouldnt be surprised at all, the head in the sand crowd has ruled for many years my brother, dt

thats quite a slam on many pioneer preachers who have poured their lives into building what we currently have now.... its also unfair to say that anyone who opposes TV has their "head in the sand"....

[Barb]

interesting, what do you base that speculation over???I have no proof of this other than my own feelings, Mal...

I was speaking with an elderly Saint this morning, and I said that I wondered how many there are in the UPCI who do not believe one must speak in tongues to be rapture ready.

When pinned down for a definitive answer, I wonder what the response would be?!

[Barb]

I keep hearing about shifts and changes. They're inevitable really.

You are probably right...

[Amos]

I keep hearing about shifts and changes. They're inevitable really.

You don't have to have the Gifts in operation to know that.:)

It is, like you said, inevitable.

[Ferd]

thats quite a slam on many pioneer preachers who have poured their lives into building what we currently have now.... its also unfair to say that anyone who opposes TV has their "head in the sand"....

I think it would be more accurate to say these men you speak of had a part in building what we have now. lets not forget that the UPCI was also helped to be what it is by famlies like the Yadons.

[Felicity]

I'd like to know how we get "label free"? Labels are inevitable. What's needed is 'respect' regardless of where one sits on the UL - UC spectrum.

[Amos]

I'd like to know how we get "label free"? Labels are inevitable. What's needed is 'respect' regardless of where one sits on the UL - UC spectrum.


My "inner beings" are telling me that you are a woman of uncommon common sense.:)

[Malvaro]

I have no proof of this other than my own feelings, Mal...

I was speaking with an elderly Saint this morning, and I said that I wondered how many there are in the UPCI who do not believe one must speak in tongues to be rapture ready.
When pinned down for a definitive answer, I wonder what the response would be?!

God help us all, if the majority believe that....

they need to get back in the Word and stop heeding the "Just accept the Lord as your personal Savior" preachers on the radio & TV....

jmho....

[Felicity]

God help us all, if the majority believe that....

they need to get back in the Word and stop heeding the "Just accept the Lord as your personal Savior" preachers on the radio & TV....

jmho....Oh for goodness sake!

[Felicity]

My "inner beings" are telling me that you are a woman of uncommon common sense.:) Really? Why?

[Nahum]

If there is bona fide alternatives like NCO emerging as a new construct of a fellowship network rather than an organization with fidelity statements, all parties could be well served by the timing of things.

I am hoping your 'spidey senses' are accurate. Whatever is needed to move away from the silliness of human engagement defined by UL-Lib-Mod-Con-UC would serve unity among the membership within God's anointed body.

Daniel's insight into the NCO and AWCF developments is incredibly instructive.

I personally know that the NCO is being very, very aggressive currently.

[Barb]

My "inner beings" are telling me that you are a woman of uncommon common sense.:)

Making fun of me?! :angelsad;)

[Nahum]

God help us all, if the majority believe that....

they need to get back in the Word and stop heeding the "Just accept the Lord as your personal Savior" preachers on the radio & TV....

jmho....

Amen, we are missing the forest for the trees.

[Barb]

I'd like to know how we get "label free"? Labels are inevitable. What's needed is 'respect' regardless of where one sits on the UL - UC spectrum.

That is the key...

[Amos]

Making fun of me?! :angelsad;)

What are your inner beings telling you I'm doing?;)

[tbpew]

Daniel's insight into the NCO and AWCF developments is incredibly instructive.

I personally know that the NCO is being very, very aggressive currently.

maybe so, but if it emerges as another version of a strictly fidelity-based ministerial alliance it will follow the same arc pattern over a much shorter time period.

Networks do not equate to organizations.

[Barb]

God help us all, if the majority believe that....

they need to get back in the Word and stop heeding the "Just accept the Lord as your personal Savior" preachers on the radio & TV....

jmho....

Not meaning to beat that poor dead horse, but the UPCI was built on men of different views working together...

[Barb]

What are your inner beings telling you I'm doing?;)

Teasing me...:sos

[Malvaro]

Oh for goodness sake!

what part don't you agree with? :D

[SDG]

The worst thing that ever happened to the UPCI was not TV but the internet.

By allowing it ... they not opened the door to an inconsistent argument over allowing a "dangerous and worldly" medium in the home ... but also in allowing a medium that will result in it's long awaited rift.

Men, women, and teens have been bombarded with information that not only challenges the tenets of their faith but has heightened the ideological debate within the fellowship to a hysterical frenzy.

Email, websites, chat, IMs, blogs, forums, youtube, streaming video and audio .... have replaced the snail mail, newsletters, and other forms of print that were used to propagandize the dueling views within the fellowship and the divergent opinions among the people.

Some ministers have said that no matter what they do ... in almost every fellowship they partake of ... the issues dividing the fellowship inevitably come up ... and the difference today ... is everyone seems to know more than they ever did about the arguments being presented on all sides.

[Felicity]

My "inner beings" are telling me that you are a woman of uncommon common sense.:)I'm an uncommon woman. True. ;) :)

[Ferd]

The worst thing that ever happened to the UPCI was not TV but the internet.

By allowing it ... they not opened the door to an inconsistent argument over allowing a "dangerous and worldly" medium in the home ... but also in allowing a medium that will result in it's long awaited rift.

Men, women, and teens have been bombarded with information that not only challenges the tenets of their faith but has heightened the ideological debate within the fellowship to a hysterical frenzy.

Email, websites, chat, IMs, blogs, forums, youtube, streaming video and audio .... have replaced the snail mail, newsletters, and other forms of print that were used to propagandize the dueling views within the fellowship and the divergent opinions among the people.

Some ministers have said that now matter what they do ... in almost every fellowship they partake of ... the issues dividing the fellowship inevitably come up ... and the difference today ... is everyone seems to know more than they ever did about the arguments being presented on all sides.

THAT is a VERY preceptive post bro. you are dead on.

[SDG]

In 1992 ... pre the information age ...only a handful knew what was really going on and what the real meaning behind the AS was ... the bulk simply bought the official explanation as explained by the GS letter to the fellowship.

Today... in this age .... that ain't going to happen after this GC.

[Charlie Brown]

I wonder why none of these folks that are leaving the UPC are going to the ALJC? You would think they would want a Org that at least holds a similar doctrinal position.

This is telling to me, as if you consider it, most of them are leaving standards as well as the UPC, and can easily be accepted by NCO and AWCF. The ALJC, though not aggressive, still has a semblance of holiness within its constituency. The other issue I see is that they (NCO) are embracing trinitarians, or at least having them minister in their pulpits. The dividing line is becoming increasingly blurred as to what is Truth. I predict that in the future the division between the NCO folks, and trinitarians will be erased completely.

[Nahum]

I on the other hand think it will pass.

May I ask what has led you to think that?





Maybe my circle is too limited?

[Felicity]

If the UPC keeps bleeding licensed and ordained ministers I'm wondering how they're going to stay afloat considering the fact that fewer younger men are getting on board.

[Twisp]

The worst thing that ever happened to the UPCI was not TV but the internet.

By allowing it ... they not opened the door to an inconsistent argument over allowing a "dangerous and worldly" medium in the home ... but also in allowing a medium that will result in it's long awaited rift.

Men, women, and teens have been bombarded with information that not only challenges the tenets of their faith but has heightened the ideological debate within the fellowship to a hysterical frenzy.

Email, websites, chat, IMs, blogs, forums, youtube, streaming video and audio .... have replaced the snail mail, newsletters, and other forms of print that were used to propagandize the dueling views within the fellowship and the divergent opinions among the people.

Some ministers have said that now matter what they do ... in almost every fellowship they partake of ... the issues dividing the fellowship inevitably come up ... and the difference today ... is everyone seems to know more than they ever did about the arguments being presented on all sides.
But, but, but...you can put filters on the internet! You can't do that on the TV! You can't control what you see on your TV!! The internet is only used for informational purposes!!! The personal responsiblity I claim to have when it comes to the internet does not work on the filthy TV!!!!


Just trying to get the arguments out of the way.

[Felicity]

what part don't you agree with? :DYou have to ask Mal?

[Barb]

I wonder why none of these folks that are leaving the UPC are going to the ALJC? You would think they would want a Org that at least holds a similar doctrinal position.

This is telling to me, as if you consider it, most of them are leaving standards as well as the UPC, and can easily be accepted by NCO and AWCF. The ALJC, though not aggressive, still has a semblance of holiness within its constituency. The other issue I see is that they (NCO) are embracing trinitarians, or at least having them minister in their pulpits. The dividing line is becoming increasingly blurred as to what is Truth. I predict that in the future the division between the NCO folks, and trinitarians will be erased completely.

I have family who are ALJC and have been told that some from that org are leaving as well...some are aligning with the UPCI...

[Felicity]

Love love love the internet.

[DividedThigh]

thats quite a slam on many pioneer preachers who have poured their lives into building what we currently have now.... its also unfair to say that anyone who opposes TV has their "head in the sand"....

that is your opinion, i view it as practical, when you have been in the church for almost 40 years like i have, you will see things differently maybe and no one has more respect for the pioneers than me, i knew a lot of them and my grandfather was one of them, i think like he did, dt

[Nahum]

I have family who are ALJC and have been told that some from that org are leaving as well...some are aligning with the UPCI...

So much upheaval! We rarely discuss the rumors of a UPC/ALJC merger if it passes. September 28th will be an historic day for all of Oneness Pentecostalism in my opinion.

I'm only 39, but I've never seen the like!

[Nahum]

If the UPC keeps bleeding licensed and ordained ministers I'm wondering how they're going to stay afloat considering the fact that fewer younger men are getting on board.

Again, less than 5% of our ministers are under 30.

[revrandy]

I could understand the advent of the Internet changing the church..

Is it God's Hand bringing about change that is what I want to know..

Everybody has an answer or opinion concerning Change but where is the Hand of God?

Is it the Will of God this process needs to happen?

Will it bring about a greater revival?

If it doesn't pass and folks leave
The Ultra Conservitives consider it a purging of the Lord of worldliness ...
The Liberals Consider it Control and Divisive

If it does pass..
The Ultra Conservative consider it a time to go and let the UPC go it's worldly ways to it's destruction..

The Liberals consider it a sign from the Lord that they will bring Revival to the Land..

So interesting... one way or the other... :hmmm

[Twisp]

I wonder why none of these folks that are leaving the UPC are going to the ALJC? You would think they would want a Org that at least holds a similar doctrinal position.

This is telling to me, as if you consider it, most of them are leaving standards as well as the UPC, and can easily be accepted by NCO and AWCF. The ALJC, though not aggressive, still has a semblance of holiness within its constituency. The other issue I see is that they (NCO) are embracing trinitarians, or at least having them minister in their pulpits. The dividing line is becoming increasingly blurred as to what is Truth. I predict that in the future the division between the NCO folks, and trinitarians will be erased completely.

Pretty sure the ALJC is just as "holy" as the UPC.

[tbpew]

Again, less than 5% of our ministers are under 30.

maybe that's a tribute to the fact that those who desire the office of a bishop or a deacon should not be novices?


just a "cup half full" thought....

[Nahum]

maybe that's a tribute to the fact that those who desire the office of a bishop or a deacon should not be novices?


just a "cup half full" thought....

Well when the ruling body of men believe that anyone under age 40 is a novice? Some 40 year olds have been in active ministry (though not licensed) for two decades.

Novices?

[Ferd]

I could understand the advent of the Internet changing the church..

Is it God's Hand bringing about change that is what I want to know..

Everybody has an answer or opinion concerning Change but where is the Hand of God?

Is it the Will of God this process needs to happen?

Will it bring about a greater revival?

If it doesn't pass and folks leave
The Ultra Conservitives consider it a purging of the Lord of worldliness ...
The Liberals Consider it Control and Divisive

If it does pass..
The Ultra Conservative consider it a time to go and let the UPC go it's worldly ways to it's destruction..

The Liberals consider it a sign from the Lord that they will bring Revival to the Land..

So interesting... one way or the other... :hmmm


and I am left wondering if either group is even in the balpark of the truth of the matter.

[Nahum]

and I am left wondering if either group is even in the ballpark of the truth of the matter.

I think we may know the answer. What once was muddied and unclear is now as easily discernible as size sixty font. Extreme fringes of both religious political parties need to pray through.

[Malvaro]

I think it would be more accurate to say these men you speak of had a part in building what we have now. lets not forget that the UPCI was also helped to be what it is by famlies like the Yadons.

most certainly, but to say that the leadership that "has ruled for many years" had their "head in the sand" because they voted to stand against TV is quite a bold statement....

Daniel perhaps made the most insightful comment on this thread thus far.... the internet has really pushed the envelope so-to-speak, especially with the two technologies of TV & Internet already beginning to blend together.... add cell-phones with 3G technology to that list as well for that matter; a person can stream TV to their phone now days.... should we get rid of them too???

[DividedThigh]

most certainly, but to say that the leadership that "has ruled for many years" had their "head in the sand" because they voted to stand against TV is quite a bold statement....

Daniel perhaps made the most insightful comment on this thread thus far.... the internet has really pushed the envelope so-to-speak, especially with the two technologies of TV & Internet already beginning to blend together.... add cell-phones with 3G technology to that list as well for that matter; a person can stream TV to their phone now days.... should we get rid of them too???

that is the whole point we live in the information age, get used to it, and dont try to act like if we ignore it , it will dissappear, i was at gc when bro tenny took the mike and said dont worry about tv , the telephone had caused more trouble than any thing he had seen, the whole place laughed, it was true, then, lol,dt

[Malvaro]

If the UPC keeps bleeding licensed and ordained ministers I'm wondering how they're going to stay afloat considering the fact that fewer younger men are getting on board.

Its a gaping wound that the UPC has been ignoring for years.... it might be a bit late to turn that boat around....

[tbpew]

Its a gaping wound that the UPC has been ignoring for years.... it might be a bit late to turn that boat around....
OK, Plan:Be = merger

[Truly Blessed]

Has anyone noticed the discontent that permeates the church? No matter what church or organization there seems to be a constant complaining and criticizing going on. Is this simply indicative of the last days and the unthankfulness that would characterize the last days? In the world everyone is in pursuit of more, or something different. I think the spirit of the world in the church is contributing to the disunity within the church. Everyone seems to want something more dazzling, or change for the sake of change it seems. This is leading people away from the simplicity of the gospel and faith based worship into "power in hair doctrines" and emotion driven worship that is more like the hype one would experience at a rock concert than in a deep faith expressive worship service.

[SDG]

Its a gaping wound that the UPC has been ignoring for years.... it might be a bit late to turn that boat around....

The most telling stat I think would be a study of the net gain of ministers and churches with the last 10 years ... we only hear how many have been added but never is there a light to net gain ...

Last I heard was 10 years ago there were something like 8800 ministers ... today there is about 9200 [?] ... only 400-500 ministers added in a decade???

[SDG]

With moderates pulling out some of the most established and larger churches in the org ... what are the economic consequences?

[DividedThigh]

With moderates pulling out some of the most established and larger churches in the org ... what are the economic consequences?

huggggggggge,dt

[Malvaro]

So much upheaval! We rarely discuss the rumors of a UPC/ALJC merger if it passes. September 28th will be an historic day for all of Oneness Pentecostalism in my opinion.

I'm only 39, but I've never seen the like!

no possible chance of UPC/ALJC merger, unless TV does pass.... which contradicts your own prediction that TV won't pass....

[philjones]

Has anyone noticed the discontent that permeates the church? No matter what church or organization there seems to be a constant complaining and criticizing going on. Is this simply indicative of the last days and the unthankfulness that would characterize the last days? In the world everyone is in pursuit of more, or something different. I think the spirit of the world in the church is contributing to the disunity within the church. Everyone seems to want something more dazzling, or change for the sake of change it seems. This is leading people away from the simplicity of the gospel and faith based worship into "power in hair doctrines" and emotion driven worship that is more like the hype one would experience at a rock concert than in a deep faith expressive worship service.

TB,

Good post!

I have felt for some time that one of the most dangerous spirits, if not THE most dangerous spirit, that wars against the church is the spirit of discontent coupled with carnal selfishness. It is revealed in a broad array of symptoms that are often singled out and identified as unique spirits when the root is actually selfish discontent! It destroys homes and marriages and church families. At times, it ruins preachers reputations and destroys ethical behavior among the ministry and the saints. It leads to those things you expressed. Discontent is vewy vewy dangerous to the souls of men and the church!

[Felicity]

Its a gaping wound that the UPC has been ignoring for years.... it might be a bit late to turn that boat around....How many years would you say?

[Charlie Brown]

Has anyone noticed the discontent that permeates the church? No matter what church or organization there seems to be a constant complaining and criticizing going on. Is this simply indicative of the last days and the unthankfulness that would characterize the last days? In the world everyone is in pursuit of more, or something different. I think the spirit of the world in the church is contributing to the disunity within the church. Everyone seems to want something more dazzling, or change for the sake of change it seems. This is leading people away from the simplicity of the gospel and faith based worship into "power in hair doctrines" and emotion driven worship that is more like the hype one would experience at a rock concert than in a deep faith expressive worship service.

I was just speaking about this with my wife yesterday. It seems we have complicated "religion" so much that we can no longer say we preach the "simplicity of the gospel". Don't get me wrong, I am a standards keeper. But we have so complicated and politicized everything that I grow sick of all of it.

[Charlie Brown]

Pretty sure the ALJC is just as "holy" as the UPC.

I didn't mean that the way it came out. There are great men and women within the ALJC. My point was supposed to be that they are not as dogmatic about standards and such as the UPCI bunch.

[Felicity]

I was just speaking about this with my wife yesterday. It seems we have complicated "religion" so much that we can no longer say we preach the "simplicity of the gospel". Don't get me wrong, I am a standards keeper. But we have so complicated and politicized everything that I grow sick of all of it.Try pastoring these days CB! Or maybe not. LOL.

[Nahum]

no possible chance of UPC/ALJC merger, unless TV does pass.... which contradicts your own prediction that TV won't pass....

I was speaking hypothetically.

I don't feel it will pass.

[Nahum]

TB,

Good post!

I have felt for some time that one of the most dangerous spirits, if not THE most dangerous spirit, that wars against the church is the spirit of discontent coupled with carnal selfishness. It is revealed in a broad array of symptoms that are often singled out and identified as unique spirits when the root is actually selfish discontent! It destroys homes and marriages and church families. At times, it ruins preachers reputations and destroys ethical behavior among the ministry and the saints. It leads to those things you expressed. Discontent is vewy vewy dangerous to the souls of men and the church!


So true Phil.

[Felicity]

With moderates pulling out some of the most established and larger churches in the org ... what are the economic consequences?Yeah, I was thinking in terms of $$$ too. Haven't there already been some minor crises? I think there have.

[Felicity]

I was just speaking about this with my wife yesterday. It seems we have complicated "religion" so much that we can no longer say we preach the "simplicity of the gospel". Don't get me wrong, I am a standards keeper. But we have so complicated and politicized everything that I grow sick of all of it.Thanks for the reassurance. We'd hate to think you might be slipping in that regard. ;) :D

[Charlie Brown]

Thanks for the reassurance. We'd hate to think you might be slipping in that regard. ;) :D


I didn't want to have you worrying about it. :killinme

[Malvaro]

How many years would you say?

who's to say.... when did younger ministers stop having a voice....

[Felicity]

who's to say.... when did younger ministers stop having a voice....I don't know. In my experience they always did.

[Brother Strange]

PP,

That has been my consistenet position all along. It will not pass.

Mine too.

I predict a defeat of 55 - 60%. Then we will see how well I read the ecclesiastical tea leaves.

[Felicity]

I didn't want to have you worrying about it. :killinme Ha! It's not like we need the reassurance 'round every corner. :thumbsup

But........ I understand. ;)

[DividedThigh]

:noideaI don't know. In my experience they always did.

i remember sitting by my dad at gc general session in st louis about 86 or so, some kid got up and said something dumb, my dad turned to me and said dont ever do that, then bro kilgore got up and said men ought to have some corn in the crib before they start telling others, we all laughed, i never forgot that, i am almost 50 and i am still quiet, good practice i think, dt

[philjones]

:noidea

i remember sitting by my dad at gc general session in st louis about 86 or so, some kid got up and said something dumb, my dad turned to me and said dont ever do that, then bro kilgore got up and said men ought to have some corn in the crib before they start telling others, we all laughed, i never forgot that, i am almost 50 and i am still quiet, good practice i think, dt

I disagree. While the GC floor is probably not the best place to "Practice", we cannot afford a silent generation. Perhaps that is at the root of the UPC's dilemma, silent young men who never gained their voice!

I will never forget the way Elder Carl Blackburn always encouraged me, as a young minister, to sit in and participate in Biblical discussions. He welcomed a challenge and was never offended if one's spirit was right! I always admired that in Br. Blackburn and will always remember him fondly for that very reason!

[Malvaro]

that is the whole point we live in the information age, get used to it, and dont try to act like if we ignore it , it will dissappear, i was at gc when bro tenny took the mike and said dont worry about tv , the telephone had caused more trouble than any thing he had seen, the whole place laughed, it was true, then, lol,dt

trust me, i'm very comfortable living in the information age.... :D

That's the whole point.... is that there have been current leaders who have not addressed this emerging technology as is it began blending together with TV.... perhaps some have been afraid to speak out, feeling that their single voice is but one among many or that there could be possible repercussions....

it doesn't mean that you should bash people and imply they're ignorant because they have a different conviction than yours though.... there have been many old-time preachers that saw TV as a bad influence, long before the internet hit is big with the common people.... it doesn't mean that lacked oversight or leadership capability.... it just means that times have changed....

[Twisp]

I didn't mean that the way it came out. There are great men and women within the ALJC. My point was supposed to be that they are not as dogmatic about standards and such as the UPCI bunch.
Oh, well that makes sense. Cool.

[Felicity]

:noidea

i remember sitting by my dad at gc general session in st louis about 86 or so, some kid got up and said something dumb, my dad turned to me and said dont ever do that, then bro kilgore got up and said men ought to have some corn in the crib before they start telling others, we all laughed, i never forgot that, i am almost 50 and i am still quiet, good practice i think, dt Being young doesn't = DUMB or NO WISDOM either. I know some "elders" who aren't too bright. :heeheehee

[DividedThigh]

trust me, i'm very comfortable living in the information age.... :D

That's the whole point.... is that there have been current leaders who have not addressed this emerging technology as is it began blending together with TV.... perhaps some have been afraid to speak out, feeling that their single voice is but one among many or that there could be possible repercussions....

it doesn't mean that you should bash people and imply they're ignorant because they have a different conviction than yours though.... there have been many old-time preachers that saw TV as a bad influence, long before the internet hit is big with the common people.... it doesn't mean that lacked oversight or leadership capability.... it just means that times have changed....

stop putting words in my mouth, and leave my posts alone mal, dont ever interpret what i say, that is all i have to say, let it go, dt

[Pressing-On]

TB,

Good post!

I have felt for some time that one of the most dangerous spirits, if not THE most dangerous spirit, that wars against the church is the spirit of discontent coupled with carnal selfishness. It is revealed in a broad array of symptoms that are often singled out and identified as unique spirits when the root is actually selfish discontent! It destroys homes and marriages and church families. At times, it ruins preachers reputations and destroys ethical behavior among the ministry and the saints. It leads to those things you expressed. Discontent is very very dangerous to the souls of men and the church!

Excellent post, Phil!

[DividedThigh]

Being young doesn't = DUMB or NO WISDOM either. I know some "elders" who aren't too bright. :heeheehee

i didtn say all were did i, i said he was and he was, even bro kilgore made a comment, enough said, i know all kinds of people who arent very bright, dotn read into what i am saying, just read what i said, my dad was right, dt

[Felicity]

Excellent post TB!

[philjones]

Excellent post, Phil!

Thank you!

[Felicity]

i didtn say all were did i, i said he was and he was, even bro kilgore made a comment, enough said, i know all kinds of people who arent very bright, dotn read into what i am saying, just read what i said, my dad was right, dtI'm not reading into anything. Just saying the truth is all. :)

[Barb]

Has anyone noticed the discontent that permeates the church? No matter what church or organization there seems to be a constant complaining and criticizing going on. Is this simply indicative of the last days and the unthankfulness that would characterize the last days? In the world everyone is in pursuit of more, or something different. I think the spirit of the world in the church is contributing to the disunity within the church. Everyone seems to want something more dazzling, or change for the sake of change it seems. This is leading people away from the simplicity of the gospel and faith based worship into "power in hair doctrines" and emotion driven worship that is more like the hype one would experience at a rock concert than in a deep faith expressive worship service.

I fear you are right, Elder...what do we do at this juncture?!

[DividedThigh]

I'm not reading into anything. Just saying the truth is all. :)

you have every right to say what you want, and all i am saying is most of the time i didnt have enough experience to say much when i was young, and now that i am old, i find silence golden bro phil, dt love you guys

[Malvaro]

stop putting words in my mouth, and leave my posts alone mal, dont ever interpret what i say, that is all i have to say, let it go, dt

Interpretation of posts is, ironically enough, something that takes place on discussion forums.... are you implying you should be immune from any criticism to your posts???

you made a valid point regarding the technology issue not being addressed by the UPC, which I agreed with.... I also stated my disagreement with your "head in sand" comment toward the older-minister "majority" which has periodically voted against the usage of TV....

[DividedThigh]

Interpretation of posts is, ironically enough, something that takes place on discussion forums.... are you implying you should be immune from any criticism to your posts???

you made a valid point regarding the technology issue not being addressed by the UPC, which I agreed with.... I also stated my disagreement with your "head in sand" comment toward the older-minister "majority" which has periodically voted against the usage of TV....

i dont have a prob with that, i never said that older ministers were like that, all were not, but i have just as much right to my opinion, as anyone else does, however i want you to leave my posts alone, there has been problems before, i am requesting that, please do so, dt

[deacon blues]

If Res 4 does not pass, there will be many who will continue to do what they want anyway. What may begin to formulate is the push for "enforcement" of the manual. If that begins to happen, then the defections will start to commence.

[DividedThigh]

If Res 4 does not pass, there will be many who will continue to do what they want anyway. What may begin to formulate is the push for "enforcement" of the manual. If that begins to happen, then the defections will start to commence.

that is so true, my brother, that will make a big deal out of it for sure, if it doesnt pass, dt

[Nahum]

If Res 4 does not pass, there will be many who will continue to do what they want anyway. What may begin to formulate is the push for "enforcement" of the manual. If that begins to happen, then the defections will start to commence.

Exactly.

This is what I meant when I said "they see the handwriting on the wall".

[Charlie Brown]

If Res 4 does not pass, there will be many who will continue to do what they want anyway. What may begin to formulate is the push for "enforcement" of the manual. If that begins to happen, then the defections will start to commence.

that is so true, my brother, that will make a big deal out of it for sure, if it doesnt pass, dt

Exactly.

This is what I meant when I said "they see the handwriting on the wall".

So much for integrity in the ministry. This, to me, speaks of rebellion. A preacher wants his saints to line up with his "platform standards" but will "do what he wants", disregarding the rest of the constituency.

[DividedThigh]

So much for integrity in the ministry. This, to me, speaks of rebellion. A preacher wants his saints to line up with his "platform standards" but will "do what he wants", disregarding the rest of the constituency.

for the record cb i go to a upc church, i do not have a license, and i listen to my pastor, when i had a license i kept the manual, but i knew many who didnt, and still dont, not my problem, dt:noidea

[CC1]

If Res 4 does not pass, there will be many who will continue to do what they want anyway. What may begin to formulate is the push for "enforcement" of the manual. If that begins to happen, then the defections will start to commence.

I would hope that men of conscience would just leave rather than violate the rules until they were forced out.

I know there is a feeling that with the AS and things like TV that the org. is meddling beyond what it should but two wrongs don't make one right.

If men can't abide by the rules of their org. then they should leave.

I happen to think that a very viable PAJC / 3 stepper doctrinally oriented new org. could probably succeed quite well with a very limited agenda.

[Malvaro]

i dont have a prob with that, i never said that older ministers were like that, all were not, but i have just as much right to my opinion, as anyone else does, however i want you to leave my posts alone, there has been problems before, i am requesting that, please do so, dt

you are certainly entitled to your own opinion, as I am mine....

As a poster, I agree and disagree with many topics I see fit, regardless of who posts it.... I might agree with people some topics, I may not regarding others....

anything that may have taken place in the past is not a cloud you'll be able to hang over my head.... if you ever have a problem with my posting or anyone else's for that matter.... just click the "Report Post" button and several AFF staffers will review it....

keep your chin up.... it'll be alright.... :D

[Nahum]

So much for integrity in the ministry. This, to me, speaks of rebellion. A preacher wants his saints to line up with his "platform standards" but will "do what he wants", disregarding the rest of the constituency.

I have come to peace with most of this, and with the men who use words like integrity, hypocrisy and so on when discussing the AS, AOF, and the enforcement of such documents. There are several things you need to know CB.

1. I do not have a tv.
2. I do not have an ad on tv.
3. If I want to advertise I will and I will not feel any guilt or lack of integrity over it.
4. I really don't think the org wants to play enforcer more than what they currently are.


When enforcement of the manual includes ALL of its standards I may change my mind, but right now it seems as most everyone I know is violating at least one of the unholy, frowned-upon, disapproved of activities.

[DividedThigh]

you are certainly entitled to your own opinion, as I am mine....

As a poster, I agree and disagree with many topics I see fit, regardless of who posts it.... I might agree with people some topics, I may not regarding others....

anything that may have taken place in the past is not a cloud you'll be able to hang over my head.... if you ever have a problem with my posting or anyone else's for that matter.... just click the "Report Post" button and several AFF staffers will review it....

keep your chin up.... it'll be alright.... :D

this is exactly what i am talking about, you dont know me, i could care less, you can do whateve you want, but i want you to never address me again, you dont listen, i asked you very nicely to leave me alone, i have good reasons honor that, my chin is fine, it is in Jesus hands, dt

[ChTatum]

I don't care, as I already am a "reject".

[DividedThigh]

I don't care, as I already am a "reject".

i like you chtatum,dt:choir

[SDG]

I don't care, as I already am a "reject".

You are far from being a reject CHT ...

to me you are one of the coolest ministers on this forum ... I'd go to your church any day ....

Chin up .. you too DT.

[HangingOut]

I think you are on to something on this. My opinion is that many who have left and will continue to do so is over doctrine, but rarely ever mentioned. Once out of the org, they implement what they believe keeping most guessing at to wether or not they changed. How many would leave over something like the legalization of TV anyway? It is two and threefold.


I have neither insider info or stake, as far as licensing and all goes, but I do have an opinion...

In my inner beings I feel a shift coming...wouldn't necessarily call it a 'split', but I do feel a change, and it won't be over television.

It will be over doctrine...

[chaotic_resolve]

Disclaimer: This is just my opinion, and I have no insider information.

On September 28th, 2007, resolution four will go down in flames. Conservatives will win the battle in convincing fashion and tighten their hold on the org.

In the days leading up to this vote, and those immediately following, stories of lib/mod defections will become commonplace. They see the handwriting on the wall.

Again, this is just my opinion.
I'm feeling the same way, unfortunately. I have several premier UPC churches that I can see leaving the organization if not allowed the choice to place ads on television.

The conservative base is much more energized.

I HAD felt that there was no way a true split would occur. I am not so sure any longer. Fissures are developing.
I've always thought a split not only would occur, but should occur. By having one fringe group leave, it keeps an organization somewhat united.

You've got the moderates and libs who have been upset since the AS of 1992. They've been pushed down long enough with rules and regulations, now they want the choice to place ads on television . . . that's all they're asking for - the free choice to be able to place ads on tv. They're not asking for HQ to publish and mandate ads for every church. It's about a simple choice.

On the other side, you've got the conservatives and UC's who are dead-set against any free-choice in the matter. They'd rather add more rules and regulations to the manual in order to force the libs and moderates to be more conservative or UC. They hate choice and don't want any part of it. Free choice for them is equal to sin.

Either way, one side is going to lose . . . and if the loser of this resolution really feels strongly either for/against it, they'll most likely leave the organization.

[DividedThigh]

:yourock:highfiveI'm feeling the same way, unfortunately. I have several premier UPC churches that I can see leaving the organization if not allowed the choice to place ads on television.


I've always thought a split not only would occur, but should occur. By having one fringe group leave, it keeps an organization somewhat united.

You've got the moderates and libs who have been upset since the AS of 1992. They've been pushed down long enough with rules and regulations, now they want the choice to place ads on television . . . that's all they're asking for - the free choice to be able to place ads on tv. They're not asking for HQ to publish and mandate ads for every church. It's about a simple choice.

On the other side, you've got the conservatives and UC's who are dead-set against any free-choice in the matter. They'd rather add more rules and regulations to the manual in order to force the libs and moderates to be more conservative or UC. They hate choice and don't want any part of it. Free choice for them is equal to sin.

Either way, one side is going to lose . . . and if the loser of this resolution really feels strongly either for/against it, they'll most likely leave the organization.

good post, amen brother, dt

[Charlie Brown]

I'm feeling the same way, unfortunately. I have several premier UPC churches that I can see leaving the organization if not allowed the choice to place ads on television.


I've always thought a split not only would occur, but should occur. By having one fringe group leave, it keeps an organization somewhat united.

You've got the moderates and libs who have been upset since the AS of 1992. They've been pushed down long enough with rules and regulations, now they want the choice to place ads on television . . . that's all they're asking for - the free choice to be able to place ads on tv. They're not asking for HQ to publish and mandate ads for every church. It's about a simple choice.

On the other side, you've got the conservatives and UC's who are dead-set against any free-choice in the matter. They'd rather add more rules and regulations to the manual in order to force the libs and moderates to be more conservative or UC. They hate choice and don't want any part of it. Free choice for them is equal to sin.

Either way, one side is going to lose . . . and if the loser of this resolution really feels strongly either for/against it, they'll most likely leave the organization.

:yourock:highfive

good post, amen brother, dt

What a skewed view you have. It is all the conservatives fault ain't it??

And advertising is not ALL they are asking for. Remember that the 2004 resolution asked for advertising and programming to be utilized (advertising, tv shows, etc.). This was defeated. It was brought back up again in 2006 for "advertisement only" and was tabled.

It is obvious to see that the liberal mindset is to get something passed that opens a door. At that point all is fair in love and war. We have already had several here state they would do what they wanted to do regardless of what is passed. Why not get on out of the UPC where one can fellowship with likeminded folks that are for the tv.

[Mr. Steinway]

I hope I'm wrong, but this vote could set the UPCI back another generation!

[Brother Strange]

Excellent post TB!

Excellent post TB???

Wow!

What an honest and non-partial critique! Couldn't be any more non-prejudiced than THAT!

:killinme

[tbpew]

Excellent post TB???

Wow!

What an honest and non-partial critique! Couldn't be any more non-prejudiced than THAT!

:killinme
what's good for the gander is good for the goose.

[Felicity]

Excellent post TB???

Wow!

What an honest and non-partial critique! Couldn't be any more non-prejudiced than THAT!

:killinme

what's good for the gander is good for the goose.I post without bias and give a thumbs up wherever it is merited or considered meritable (is that a word?) Especially when it seems it's being given a pass. It might could even be viewed as meant to be encouraging?

:winkgrin

[chaotic_resolve]

What a skewed view you have. It is all the conservatives fault ain't it??

And advertising is not ALL they are asking for. Remember that the 2004 resolution asked for advertising and programming to be utilized (advertising, tv shows, etc.). This was defeated. It was brought back up again in 2006 for "advertisement only" and was tabled.

It is obvious to see that the liberal mindset is to get something passed that opens a door. At that point all is fair in love and war. We have already had several here state they would do what they wanted to do regardless of what is passed. Why not get on out of the UPC where one can fellowship with likeminded folks that are for the tv.
I'm not saying it's the conservatives fault. Yes, I do have a biased view, as do you.

My biased view is that local churches should be able to conduct their business without interference from another church a thousand miles away who may not like how it's being run.

My biased view believes that local churches should have the CHOICE whether or not to place ads on television . . . not be dictated and forced not to because HQ won't allow them to.

My biased view states that the organization would be better unified by preaching the doctrine of salvation and not rules and regulations through force.

Regardless of whether it's advertising or actual programming - that doesn't matter . . . the issue here is the freedom to choose. And like it or not, the UC's are voting against this FREE CHOICE. That's about as simple as you can make it. Am I wrong? You know I'm not wrong here.

A vote yes is to allow the freedom to choose . . . [you can still vote yes and not vote, it does not force one party's belief on everyone.]

A vote no is to restrict that freedom to choose and force one party's beliefs on the whole organization.

If passed, Res 4 does NOT force or attempt to coerce anyone to place ads on television. It does not mean HQ will be creating and sending out commercials - though I concede, if there's a profit to be made, HQ will end up producing commercials.

[OP_Carl]

I'm feeling the same way, unfortunately. I have several premier UPC churches that I can see leaving the organization if not allowed the choice to place ads on television. Ta ta. Let them go.

I've always thought a split not only would occur, but should occur. By having one fringe group leave, it keeps an organization somewhat united. Until next season's set of issues, whatever they might be.

You've got the moderates and libs who have been upset since the AS of 1992. They've been pushed down long enough with rules and regulations, now they want the choice to place ads on television . . . that's all they're asking for - the free choice to be able to place ads on tv. They're not asking for HQ to publish and mandate ads for every church. It's about a simple choice. Yes, the poor little innocent liberals are the victims every time. "All" the liberals want is just one little eensy weensy thing. All the while knowing full well that it would be impossible to ever get all the snakes back into the box, once they're loosed.

On the other side, you've got the conservatives and UC's who are dead-set against any free-choice in the matter. They'd rather add more rules and regulations to the manual in order to force the libs and moderates to be more conservative or UC. And of course, we all know that conservatives are never led to their positions on issues by firm convictions, divine revelation, or God's spirit. It's all bully politics for conservatives, and mostly they just want to meet their quota of people to whom they've been mean.
They hate choice and don't want any part of it. Free choice for them is equal to sin. Wow. This is funny. Until one considers the possibility that you sincerely believe this toad offal. It couldn't possibly be that conservatives see some danger there and want to prevent the organization from jumping off a cliff. And it certainly isn't that the liberals have already planned their next issue for compromise. Nobody has the market cornered on closed-mindedness. I was ready to call you stupid but I think you just did it for me.

Either way, one side is going to lose . . . and if the loser of this resolution really feels strongly either for/against it, they'll most likely leave the organization.
The losers are the ones that die believing they're saved but go to hell anyway. People need fewer distractions from God, not more. This TV thing is all about generating de facto acceptance for everybody to own TV and watch the ungodly filth it emits. Help us Lord, we might miss the next episode of Jackass.

They can have my television-free living room when they pry it from my cold, dead hands! Well, you get the idea.

[chaotic_resolve]

Ta ta. Let them go.
I'm sure the yippy attitude will lose its appeal with you if these churches do end up leaving . . . seeing as they give the most in offerings to keep the UPC going. Hope you're prepared to take up the slack. *grin* The first to go will be Harvestime, since it bloats the budget anyway. Next will not be just a $25 registration fee for GC . . . but possibly up to $100 or more . . . and gone will be the arenas - hello Hotel Convention Center!

Until next season's set of issues, whatever they might be.
This is funny, as though the only one's with issues are moderates/liberals. Let's flip the coin and consider what the C/UC's will try to push once Res 4 goes down to defeat . . . like a resolution of standards to be adopted by all churches in order to make everyone believe/look identical.

Yes, the poor little innocent liberals are the victims every time. "All" the liberals want is just one little eensy weensy thing. All the while knowing full well that it would be impossible to ever get all the snakes back into the box, once they're loosed.
Did I say anything about being a victim. You equate television to snakes . . . tell me what do you equate internet to? And yet you have no problem with that . . . I'd use the word hypocrite here, but I'd rather not have to edit the post later.

And of course, we all know that conservatives are never led to their positions on issues by firm convictions, divine revelation, or God's spirit. It's all bully politics for conservatives, and mostly they just want to meet their quota of people to whom they've been mean.
You speak of conservatives being led by conviction, divine revelation or God's Spirit . . . as though they and only they have a corner on the market. What about AM's comments. Wouldn't you agree that he has firm convictions on the issue. And quite possibly he feels led by God's Spirit to put ads on television.

Oh, I forget . . . only C/UC's have convictions. The moderates and libs have none.

Dumb.

Wow. This is funny. Until one considers the possibility that you sincerely believe this toad offal. [Err . . .WHAT?] It couldn't possibly be that conservatives see some danger there and want to prevent the organization from jumping off a cliff. And it certainly isn't that the liberals have already planned their next issue for compromise. Nobody has the market cornered on closed-mindedness. I was ready to call you stupid but I think you just did it for me.
A lot of words . . . but you didn't say anything to prove my statement wrong. And then you ended the usual UC way . . . with a personal attack. Utterly predictable.

The losers are the ones that die believing they're saved but go to hell anyway. People need fewer distractions from God, not more. This TV thing is all about generating de facto acceptance for everybody to own TV and watch the ungodly filth it emits. Help us Lord, we might miss the next episode of Jackass.
*sigh* Then why you wasting your time on AFF?


They can have my television-free living room when they pry it from my cold, dead hands! Well, you get the idea.
:lol And you wanted to call me stupid!? Again, show me where anyone is trying to force anything on you! Good grief!

[OP_Carl]

I'm sure the yippy attitude will lose its appeal with you if these churches do end up leaving . . . seeing as they give the most in offerings to keep the UPC going. Hope you're prepared to take up the slack. *grin* This is important to me, because religion is about money, right?

Did I say anything about being a victim. Frankly, I was just having some fun with wordplay. You were my unwitting accomplice.

You equate television to snakes . . . tell me what do you equate internet to? Komodo dragons and giant millipedes

And yet you have no problem with that . . . I'd use the word hypocrite here, but I'd rather not have to edit the post later. Go ahead and use it. That wouldn't bother me one bit.

You speak of conservatives being led by conviction, divine revelation or God's Spirit . . . as though they and only they have a corner on the market. What about AM's comments. Wouldn't you agree that he has firm convictions on the issue. And quite possibly he feels led by God's Spirit to put ads on television.There is a literary device known as sarcasm, in widespread employment in my post . . .

Oh, I forget . . . only C/UC's have convictions. The moderates and libs have none. NOW you're getting it!

Dumb.""

A lot of words . . . but you didn't say anything to prove my statement wrong. And then you ended the usual UC way . . . with a personal attack. Utterly predictable.

*sigh* Then why you wasting your time on AFF? Having a little fun . . . . apparently at your expense. I hope you don't mind too awful badly. By the way - nice sigh! Did you get that sigh from Al Gore?

:lol And you wanted to call me stupid!?Yeah. If we turned that one inside out and backwards, so that it made a broad sweeping accusation toward liberals, then suddenly you would find reasons to question its lucidity (you'd thunk it stupid.) :drama

Again, show me where anyone is trying to force anything on you! Good grief!

We all know that the liberals, led by Benny Hinn and Hillary Clinton, want to force communism, candy, and carnality on the UPC. Their program includes mandatory mixed bathing and a list of required TV shows we have to watch. Failure to own a TV results in excommunication! :killinme

I've got that link that proves it around here somewhere . . .:noidea

:slaphappy

[JOYoftheLord]

I think Suber leaving the UPC while he was at his peak in it may encourage some other major or medium / major mods or libs to go ahead and leave when it does not pass.


IMHO....I wish all the like minded folk as Suber, would take his lead and leave.

Just get it over with and begin their own organization and leave the original alone.

[Charlie Brown]

I'm not saying it's the conservatives fault. Yes, I do have a biased view, as do you.

My biased view is that local churches should be able to conduct their business without interference from another church a thousand miles away who may not like how it's being run.

My biased view believes that local churches should have the CHOICE whether or not to place ads on television . . . not be dictated and forced not to because HQ won't allow them to.

My biased view states that the organization would be better unified by preaching the doctrine of salvation and not rules and regulations through force.

Regardless of whether it's advertising or actual programming - that doesn't matter . . . the issue here is the freedom to choose. And like it or not, the UC's are voting against this FREE CHOICE. That's about as simple as you can make it. Am I wrong? You know I'm not wrong here.

A vote yes is to allow the freedom to choose . . . [you can still vote yes and not vote, it does not force one party's belief on everyone.]

A vote no is to restrict that freedom to choose and force one party's beliefs on the whole organization.

If passed, Res 4 does NOT force or attempt to coerce anyone to place ads on television. It does not mean HQ will be creating and sending out commercials - though I concede, if there's a profit to be made, HQ will end up producing commercials.


I would agree that we ALL have a biased view.

I disagree that each church does not have the freedom to choose. The point is that they have the choice to continue in the organization that has specific rules, or move on to other places. So there IS freedom to choose, as no one is making anyone do anything.

If passed, Res 4 would make a lot of conservatives have to choose between staying in the organization they too have worked hard to build, and walking in integrity knowing they in good conscience cannot walk with those that are ok with tv.

[Mr. Steinway]

*Just released*

Ultra-con buttons to be worn to rally the troops at GC!

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r227/Steinwayman/GC4.jpg

[OP_Carl]

*Just released*

Ultra-con buttons to be worn to rally the troops at GC!

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r227/Steinwayman/GC4.jpg

Where does the line form? :killinme

[DividedThigh]

*Just released*

Ultra-con buttons to be worn to rally the troops at GC!

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r227/Steinwayman/GC4.jpg

now that is funny pianoman, lol,dt:killinme:noidea:killinme

[Mr. Steinway]

now that is funny pianoman, lol,dt:killinme:noidea:killinme

Here is the button for the Mods and libs:

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r227/Steinwayman/GC42.jpg

[DividedThigh]

Here is the button for the Mods and libs:

http://i145.photobucket.com/albums/r227/Steinwayman/GC42.jpg

i like that one, does it come in an assortment of tasteful colors for the ladies, lol not red of course, lol,dt:killinme

[Mr. Steinway]

i like that one, does it come in an assortment of tasteful colors for the ladies, lol not red of course, lol,dt:killinme

Additional colors are available for the more liberal sect! :D

[DividedThigh]

Additional colors are available for the more liberal sect! :D

cool, please list the web site when available, i need a couple thou to mail out, lol, dt:noidea:nah

[Bro-Larry]

* BUMP*

OH MY!! How clear the 20/20 hindsight is.