Calling all PAJCers: When does Justification and Remission Happen?

[SDG]

Interestingly, I have come to realize there are at least 3 schools of thought on the relational concepts of justification and remission in the PAJC view.

All believe remission of sins takes place at water baptism ... but there is no consensus on when we experience justification.

Here are the 3 schools of thought -

Some PAJCers believe justification happens before baptism and remission at baptism


Sabellius:
I believe that Justification occurs before any baptism. I believe that Justification refers, naturally, to the declaring of an individual as righteous. God declares us just. How else could the Spirt of God enter Cornelius (c.f. Acts 10:1-46) prior to water baptism?

I believe that baptism requires a synergistic effort and that it means both--symbolic and that genuine spiritual realities are conferred at water baptism. Symbolically, we are buried with Him in the likeness of His death (Colossians 2:12) and are identified with Christ at baptism. Literally, we are now in the "Kingdom of God"; have a record of sin with a penalty of death, remitted or discharged.

Some believe justification happens after water baptism along with remission

Elder Epley:

My friend Sab and I have a major disagreement here rather than justification a measure of sanctification has taken place in that he separated himself to seek God and God sent him a preacher with sayings words that complete the sanctification and declare him justified by giving the the HG and remitting his sins in baptism. I think you have the cart before the horse though we are own the same train. Now Sab you are smarter than I and certainly more wordy but sorry you are wrong on this but we are yet friends before you scald me think it through. The religious world says justified THEN sanctified but actually everything is SET APART unto God and from this world that is repentance BEFORE justification takes place!

“A man is not justified without remission of sins. NOr is his sanctification complete without remission of sins. And God's seal on his life through the HGB is part and parcel of this experience. Not three steps three elements blood-water-Spirit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

… a man that has repented is justified when his sins are remitted at baptism. His record is cleared and through faith his sins are transferred to the sin bearer and His righteousness is imputed to us. Repentance and Baptism completes justification and His infilling completes sanctification initially. I believe sanctification is entire but not complete my nature will need more mortification in my walk with Him.


Some believe justification is not complete until all the 3 steps are completed with remission occurring at baptism

David Bernard, The New Birth

Since justification comes through faith, it occurs when a person fully exercises saving faith, which includes obedience to the gospel Therefore, the full work of justification comes by faith as one repents, is baptized in Jesus' name, and receives the Holy Spirit.
In I Corinthians 6:9-10 Paul listed ten categories of unrighteous people who will not inherit the kingdom of God. He continued: "And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God" (I Corinthians 6:11). In other words, justification occurred when they were baptized in Jesus' name and baptized with the Holy Spirit. Although this verse does not specifically mention the word baptism, Smith's Dictionary of the Bible explains it as referring to baptism: "It is generally believed that here is an allusion to being baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ… [T]he reference to baptism seems unquestionable." [253] A Baptist theologian asserted that, "The voice of scholarship is unanimous in affirming the association with baptism." [254]

Further examination of the purposes of repentance, water baptism, and the Spirit baptism demonstrates that the work of justification takes place in all three. At repentance, man and God begin to form a personal relationship, which lays a foundation for water and Spirit baptism. At water baptism, God remits sin (Acts 2:38), which corresponds to the first element of justification.

The Holy Spirit imparts the righteousness of Christ, for the Spirit is Christ in us: "That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit" (Romans 8:4); "But ye are not in the flesh but in the Spirit if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness" (Romans 8:9-10). The indwelling Spirit enables us to receive future salvation (Romans 8:11). Through the Spirit we qualify for God's blessings and promises (Romans 8:15-17; Galatians 3:14). In short, the baptism of the Spirit corresponds to the second element of justification.

The work of justification begins at initial repentance from sin and is completed at the time of water and Spirit baptism. Therefore, justification is instantaneous at the time of the new birth as a whole. It would be incorrect to identify justification solely with one aspect of the new birth, because the new birth must be regarded as a single whole. In one sense, however, justification is available on a continuing basis for sins committed and repented of after the new birth experience.


_______________________________

The questions that beg to be asked are:

1. What is justification? When does it happen?
2. What is remission? Does it happen at water baptism?
3. What are the underlying reasons for this difference of opinion?

Let's refrain from analogies and let's make our points based on the Word.

[Nahum]

Daniel, if you start one more thread with the letters PAJC or PCI in it, I'm going to do this to you. :beatdeadhorse

ARRRRRGGGGGGGGHHHHHH!!!!! :surrender :vomit :vomit :vomit :crazy :crazy

[SDG]

Daniel, if you start one more thread with the letters PAJC or PCI in it, I'm going to do this to you. :beatdeadhorse

ARRRRRGGGGGGGGHHHHHH!!!!! :surrender :vomit :vomit :vomit :crazy :crazy

I expect your exegesis by morning.

[Ronzo]

Daniel, if you start one more thread with the letters PAJC or PCI in it, I'm going to do this to you. :beatdeadhorse
Me too.


Bad Danny! BAD! BAD!


:killinme

[SDG]

Me too.


Bad Danny! BAD! BAD!


:killinme

Give me a quick answer ... Ronzo ... to the questions because I know your answer will be ....

[RevDWW]

Remission G859
ἄφεσις
aphesis
Thayer Definition:
1) release from bondage or imprisonment
2) forgiveness or pardon, of sins (letting them go as if they had never been committed), remission of the penalty

What did John the Baptist preach about remission?
Mark 1:4 (KJV) 4John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
Luke 3:2 - 3 (KJV) 2Annas and Caiaphas being the high priests, the word of God came unto John the son of Zacharias in the wilderness. 3And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;

What was said of Jesus?
Luke 1:76 - Luke 1:77 (KJV) 76And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways; 77To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,


What did Jesus teach?
Luke 24:47 (KJV) 47And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

What did Peter preach starting at Jerusalem?
Acts 2:38 (KJV) 38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

What did Peter continue to preach even to the Gentiles?
Acts 10:42 - 48 (KJV) 42And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.
43To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
44While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Seems to say that remission comes with Baptism.

[SDG]

and justification ... DW.

[Ronzo]

Give me a quick answer ... Ronzo ... to the questions because I know your answer will be ....

My answer will be what? That you're a troublemaker? lol

[RevDWW]

My answer will be what? That you're a troublemaker? lol

To that I say a big AMEN

[RevDWW]

and justification ... DW.

If you continue to leave out my other W I'm going to ignore you......you must have all three to hear from me.........:killinme :killinme :killinme


J/K. I'll get to the justification in good time.

[J-Roc]

Me too.


Bad Danny! BAD! BAD!


:killinme


If you two thugs so even look his way, I'll have to give you two a smackdown! :drawguns

[SDG]

Thanks J.

[Ronzo]

If you two thugs so even look his way, I'll have to give you two a smackdown! :drawguns

Ju ain'got nuttin, J-Rockhead

[RevDWW]

Where the Isrealites justified by circumcision in the Old Testament?
Justified G1344
δικαιόω
dikaioō
Thayer Definition:
1) to render righteous or such he ought to be
2) to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
3) to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

In the Old Testament was one able to believe he was a Jew and it be so even if he were not circumcised? No he had to have the covenant of circumcision to become a Jew. A Jew was justified by this outward sign.
The outward sign or covenant of circumcision was done away with in the New Testament, but there is still a spiritual one.

Romans 3:20 - 26 (KJV) 20Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
29Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
30Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
31Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Romans 2:25 - Romans 2:29 (KJV) 25For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
26Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
27And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
28For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Colossians 2:9 - Colossians 2:13 (KJV) 9For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 10And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: 11In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: 12Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 13And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

We are made righteous through the remission of sins.

[SDG]

DWW ... then you are an EPLEYIAN PAJCer. Interesting ... so justification happens at step 2.

How would you reconcile your view with

1 Corinthians 12:13-"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit."

Can you be truly be His .... justified... declared righteous.... without the baptism of the Holy Ghost ....?

[RevDWW]

1 Corinthians 6:9 - 1 Corinthians 6:11 (KJV) 9Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
11And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

I found this scripture very interesting. I wonder if the order here was just a random occurance? It appears we need it all.


PS. Thanks for the DWW....but I was just mess'n with yah:laffatu

[SDG]

DWW ... what evidence do you have that physical circumcision justified ... or declared righteous, a Jew?

[Fireside]

DWW ... what evidence do you have that physical circumcision justified ... or declared righteous, a Jew?

However you want to slice it, they had no access to the benefits of the covenant without it. None.

Circumcision was pretty much a cut and dried issue...no pun intended. ;)

[SDG]

1 Corinthians 6:9 - 1 Corinthians 6:11 (KJV) 9Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
11And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

I found this scripture very interesting. I wonder if the order here was just a random occurance? It appears we need it all.


PS. Thanks for the DWW....but I was just mess'n with yah:laffatu

I'm a little confused you first stated justification happens at water baptism but the verse you've provided ... if to be taken that you are a WATER AND SPIRIT adherent ... clearly states that ye are justified in the name of the Lord and by the Spirit of God.

At which step DWW??? 2 or 3?

I appreciate your willingness to share the Word with us.

[Felicity]

DWW ... then you are an EPLEYIAN PAJCer. Interesting ... so justification happens at step 2.

How would you reconcile your view with

1 Corinthians 12:13-"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit."

Can you be truly be His .... justified... declared righteous.... without the baptism of the Holy Ghost ....?Epleyian PAJCer? :eek: Now that's a new one I've never heard before. :toofunny

[SDG]

However you want to slice it, they had no access to the benefits of the covenant without it. None.

Circumcision was pretty much a cut and dried issue...no pun intended. ;)

CS ... we would love to here from you on this topic ... Justified at step 1, 2 or 3?

[stmatthew]

Question..... Is it the death of Jesus that Justifies us, or his resurrection?

[SDG]

Epleyian PAJCer? :eek: Now that's a new one I've never heard before. :toofunny

Actually ... Sabellius shared earlier that those PAJCers that believe justification occurs before baptism subscribe to the soteriological theory of Daniel Seagraves ... making them SEAGRAVIAN PAJCers.

Those that believe that justification is not complete after 3 steps are adherents of Bernard's views .... making them the BERNARDIAN PAJCers.

And well I don't know of any Oneness theologians with the step 2 justification view ... so I could only think of Elder Epley ... therefore ...
they will be forever dubbed EPLEYIAN PAJCers.

[Felicity]

Question..... Is it the death of Jesus that Justifies us, or his resurrection?Are you asking because you don't know? For information? Or is this a trick question? :lol

[Fireside]

Let me throw out these verses...


Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.


Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.


Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Reconciliation alone does not complete salvation.

Justification alone does not complete salvation.

Sanctification alone does not complete salvation.

The attempt to try to isolate a point somewhere in the process where a person is "saved" is pointless.

I guess if you have to label me, I am more in line with Bernard's view.

The full benefits of saving faith are not ours until our obedience is complete.

That includes repentance, baptism in Jesus Name, and receiving the Holy Ghost.

[SDG]

Well ... there you have it ... Coon is a BERNARDIAN PAJCer.

[SDG]

Let me throw out these verses...




Reconciliation alone does not complete salvation.

Justification alone does not complete salvation.

Sanctification alone does not complete salvation.

The attempt to try to isolate a point somewhere in the process where a person is "saved" is pointless.

I guess if you have to label me, I am more in line with Bernard's view.

The full benefits of saving faith are not ours until our obedience is complete.

That includes repentance, baptism in Jesus Name, and receiving the Holy Ghost.

How do you reconcile you 3 step justification model with Romans 5:9??

Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

[Steve Epley]

I vote for me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:tease

When remission of sins are enjoined then I am justified and He lives in me through the HG. Blood-water-Spirit! Is the new birth.

[Fireside]

How do you reconcile you 3 step justification model with Romans 5:9??

Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Elements, not steps.

There is no contradiction.

[RevDWW]

I'm a little confused you first stated justification happens at water baptism but the verse you've provided ... if to be taken that you are a WATER AND SPIRIT adherent ... clearly states that ye are justified in the name of the Lord and by the Spirit of God.

At which step DWW??? 2 or 3?

I appreciate your willingness to share the Word with us.

I appreciate your appreciation.

In this order washed, sanctified, justified and it's all or nut'n honey. It's all one big step of faith!

[RevDWW]

I must leave now. But I shall return.



Man I love you people!!!!!

[SDG]

I appreciate your appreciation.

In this order washed, sanctified, justified and it's all or nut'n honey. It's all one big step of faith!

Am I reading you right now ... because before you said we're justified after remission ....

are you now saying we are justified after all 3 steps are complete?

[SDG]

I vote for me!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:tease

When remission of sins are enjoined then I am justified and He lives in me through the HG. Blood-water-Spirit! Is the new birth.

Let's hear some scriptural support for the EPLEYIAN PAJCer view.

[Steve Epley]

Let's hear some scriptural support for the EPLEYIAN PAJCer view.

I gave it to you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You forget to easy.:highfive

[SDG]

This is for posterity .. some scripture ... Elder.

[stmatthew]

Let me throw out these verses...




Reconciliation alone does not complete salvation.

Justification alone does not complete salvation.

Sanctification alone does not complete salvation.

The attempt to try to isolate a point somewhere in the process where a person is "saved" is pointless.

I guess if you have to label me, I am more in line with Bernard's view.

The full benefits of saving faith are not ours until our obedience is complete.

That includes repentance, baptism in Jesus Name, and receiving the Holy Ghost.

I am the same. Salvation will be complete only at his return. We have an eanest of salvation. We have assurity of that we are his because of that. But we still have free choice to walk away, or become shipwrecked. The only guarantee we have is if we continue to follow the Spirit. I stress the word CONTINUE.

[SDG]

I am the same. Salvation will be complete only at his return. We have an eanest of salvation. We have assurity of that we are his because of that. But we still have free choice to walk away, or become shipwrecked. The only guarantee we have is if we continue to follow the Spirit. I stress the word CONTINUE.

Are we justified at step 1, 2 or 3 ... Matt???

[Fireside]

How do you reconcile you 3 step justification model with Romans 5:9??

Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

"Being justified..." is present tense.

"Shall be saved..." is future tense.

Justified does not equal saved.

Thanks for your support. :)

[Ronzo]

"Being justified..." is present tense.

"Shall be saved..." is future tense.

Justified does not equal saved.

Thanks for your support. :)

"justified"
G1344
δικαιόω
dikaioō
dik-ah-yo'-o
From G1342; to render (that is, show or regard as) just or innocent: - free, justify (-ier), be righteous.

"saved"
G4982
σώζω
sōzō
sode'-zo
From a primary word σῶς sōs̄ (contraction for the obsolete σάος saos, "safe"); to save, that is, deliver or protect (literally or figuratively): - heal, preserve, save (self), do well, be (make) whole.




Will God not accept someone he's made righteous?

[Felicity]

I am the same. Salvation will be complete only at his return. We have an eanest of salvation. We have assurity of that we are his because of that. But we still have free choice to walk away, or become shipwrecked. The only guarantee we have is if we continue to follow the Spirit. I stress the word CONTINUE.Of course - the fact we can walk away, backslide, whatever is a given, but we can also know now - right now - that we are saved!

[SDG]

"Being justified..." is present tense.

"Shall be saved..." is future tense.

Justified does not equal saved.

Thanks for your support. :)

no .... :ty

[SDG]

FOR MATT ...

Are we justified at step 1, 2 or 3 ... Matt???

[Scott Hutchinson]

When one repents,they ask God to forgive them of their sins,baptism is essential for obedience.MARK.16:16
How can someone be regenerated without receiving The Holy Spirit,which is the Spirit of grace?

[stmatthew]

I am the same. Salvation will be complete only at his return. We have an eanest of salvation. We have assurity of that we are his because of that. But we still have free choice to walk away, or become shipwrecked. The only guarantee we have is if we continue to follow the Spirit. I stress the word CONTINUE.

Of course - the fact we can walk away, backslide, whatever is a given, but we can also know now - right now - that we are saved!

I agree 100%. Thats why I said, "We have assurity of that we are his because of that".

[Steve Epley]

One certainity Sab-Benard-myself all teach the new birth is water & Spirit the gospel message of Acts 2:38.

[stmatthew]

FOR MATT ...

Are we justified at step 1, 2 or 3 ... Matt???


I believe we are justified when Jesus becomes our substitute, and his sacrificial blood is applied to our lives. But like CS, I do not believe justification equals salvation, but only prepares ones heart for salvation.




Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

[SDG]

I believe we are justified when Jesus becomes our substitute, and his sacrificial blood is applied to our lives. But like CS, I do not believe justification equals salvation, but only prepares ones heart for salvation.




Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

When does this justification happen ... still unclear ... at repentance, after water baptism ... after the baptism of the HG or beyond???

[ManOfWord]

"Being justified..." is present tense.

"Shall be saved..." is future tense.

Justified does not equal saved.

Thanks for your support. :)

I don't claim to be infallible, but I don't think I know of any other group that believes that "justification" does NOT equal salvation than Oneness Pentecostals.

It is amazing that some groups can change the definition of biblical words.

[SDG]

I don't claim to be infallible, but I don't think I know of any other group that believes that "justification" does NOT equal salvation than Oneness Pentecostals.

It is amazing that some groups can change the definition of biblical words.

You are absolutely right MOW ... but it's because it would have to fit their doctrine of remission at baptism ...that's where their house of cards is weakest.

[J-Roc]

Ju ain'got nuttin, J-Rockhead



Yo, dontchu make me UFC all up over ya, punk! Besides, ju told me ju wuz afraid of trowin down fists. :highfive

[stmatthew]

When does this justification happen ... still unclear ... at repentance, after water baptism ... after the baptism of the HG or beyond???


I personally believe that we are justified at baptism, because this is where sins are remitted.



From Acts 2:38.....

Remission - aphesis {af'-es-is}


1) release from bondage or imprisonment

2) forgiveness or pardon, of sins (letting them go as if they had never been committed), remission of the penalty

[SDG]

I personally believe that we are justified at baptism, because this is where sins are remitted.



From Acts 2:38.....

Remission - aphesis {af'-es-is}


1) release from bondage or imprisonment

2) forgiveness or pardon, of sins (letting them go as if they had never been committed), remission of the penalty

Hey Elder Epley .. you have a disciple ... MATT'S AN EPLEYIAN PAJCer ... congratulations ... Matt ...

[stmatthew]

I don't claim to be infallible, but I don't think I know of any other group that believes that "justification" does NOT equal salvation than Oneness Pentecostals.

It is amazing that some groups can change the definition of biblical words.



Please explain this verse then. It sure does sound like you can be justified, and yet be not saved.


Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

[stmatthew]

Hey Elder Epley .. you have a disciple ... MATT'S AN EPLEYIAN PAJCer ... congratulations ... Matt ...

I just believe what the bible says.

[ManOfWord]

You are absolutely right MOW ... but it's because it would have to fit their doctrine of remission at baptism ...that's where their house of cards is weakest.

I guess it goes to the old:


I have been saved
I am saved
I am being saved


The question is, when is someone "rapture ready?"

This is the most foundational question a sinner can ask. Why is there not an answer we can give them?

[Steve Epley]

I guess it goes to the old:


I have been saved
I am saved
I am being saved


The question is, when is someone "rapture ready?"

This is the most foundational question a sinner can ask. Why is there not an answer we can give them?

I believe that MOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am rapture ready right now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[SDG]

I just believe what the bible says.

Hear that CS ... you don't believe the bible ... cause as a BERNARDIAN PAJCer you don't hold the EPLYIAN VIEW.

[ManOfWord]

Please explain this verse then. It sure does sound like you can be justified, and yet be not saved.


Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.


We are NOW justified by His blood and because of that we will be spared from wrath. At least that's my take.

[SDG]

I believe that MOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I am rapture ready right now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Is someone one rapture ready at repentance ... ie ... they repent ... and the trumpet blows ????

[SDG]

We are NOW justified by His blood and because of that we will be spared from wrath. At least that's my take.

sounds solid to me ... but I think it could be harmonized w/ other scriptures.

[Steve Epley]

Is someone one rapture ready at repentance ... ie ... they repent ... and the trumpet blows ????

NOPE ye MUST be born again. The Holy Ghost is what will quicken or resurrect our mortal bodies. Onlt hose who have the earnest or firstfruits will go in the rapture. Take more than repentance alone to be in the church. And ONLY the church will be raptured.

[SDG]

NOPE ye MUST be born again. The Holy Ghost is what will quicken or resurrect our mortal bodies. Onlt hose who have the earnest or firstfruits will go in the rapture. Take more than repentance alone to be in the church. And ONLY the church will be raptured.

under your view then Elder... being justified after ... baptism ... if someone repented and was baptized ... and had not yet been baptized w/ the HG AND THE TRUMPET SOUNDS ... are they saved?????

[stmatthew]

under you view then ... being justified after ... baptism ... if someone repented and was baptized ... and had not yet been baptized w/ the HG AND THE TRUMPET SOUNDS ... are they saved?????

NO. Because the HG is the promised earnest of our inheritance. IF you do not have it, you do not have eternal life.

See the problem in your senerio is that the only reason a person would not receive the Holy Ghost is if they did not repent, or have unrepented sin in their heart, or they do not have faith.

[SDG]

NO. Because the HG is the promised earnest of our inheritance. IF you do not have it, you do not have eternal life.

See the problem in your senerio is that the only reason a person would not receive the Holy Ghost is if they did not repent, or have unrepented sin in their heart, or they do not have faith.

so they would have been justified, declared righteous, under your view but not caught up in the sky ... interesting ...

[J-Roc]

so they would have been justified, declared righteous, under your view but not caught up in the sky ... interesting ...


So they are acquitted and declared not guilty, but they burn in hell? huh? that doesn't sound like the GOOD news, sounds like terrible news to me! :sad :sad

[stmatthew]

so they would have been justified, declared righteous, under your view but not caught up in the sky ... interesting ...



I can go and wash my friends car, but that does not make it my car. It is when the car is titled in my name that it becomes mine.

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

[Steve Epley]

under your view then Elder... being justified after ... baptism ... if someone repented and was baptized ... and had not yet been baptized w/ the HG AND THE TRUMPET SOUNDS ... are they saved?????

No one will go in the rapture that has NOT been born again of water and The Spirit.

[rgcraig]

Can you have the Holy Ghost living in you (after you have repented and been baptized) if you haven't spoken in tongues?

[ManOfWord]

We're mainly just disagreeing then, as to when the "title" transfers. :D

[J-Roc]

I can go and wash my friends car, but that does not make it my car. It is when the car is titled in my name that it becomes mine.

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

As long as they believe that the Spirit of God is only when they speak in tongues, they will always believe you are hell bound if you dont speak in tongues...that's the issue here.

[SDG]

No one will go in the rapture that has NOT been born again of water and The Spirit.

so .... even if they are declared righteous by God, justified ... having repented and been water baptized ...and they were not water baptized ... God will leave them behind ???

[Steve Epley]

so .... even if they are declared righteous by God, justified ... having repented and been water baptized ...and they were not water baptized ... God will leave them behind ???

Blood-water-Spirit!

[stmatthew]

As long as they believe that the Spirit of God is only when they speak in tongues, they will always believe you are hell bound if you dont speak in tongues...that's the issue here.

Actually, since you quoted my post, the question was

under you view then ... being justified after ... baptism ... if someone repented and was baptized ... and had not yet been baptized w/ the HG AND THE TRUMPET SOUNDS ... are they saved?????

So the question excluded one having received promise the Holy Ghost. It was only one that had repented and been water baptized.

[SDG]

Blood-water-Spirit!

Hence the righteous are not going to heaven???

[Steve Epley]

Righteous for Him to inhabit. The virgins were virgins five did not have the oil when the call was made so they were left behind takes the whole package to go in the rapture. For the cake to be right you need all the ingredients.
Blood-water-Spirit.

[J-Roc]

Actually, since you quoted my post, the question was



So the question excluded one having received promise the Holy Ghost. It was only one that had repented and been water baptized.



Actually, he is referring to speaking in tongues...not the new birth which takes place at repentance when one places their faith/trust in what Jesus did for them at Calvary...trusting that the blood of Jesus washes away their sin and that his righteousness is imputed to us.

[SDG]

Righteous for Him to inhabit. The virgins were virgins five did not have the oil when the call was made so they were left behind takes the whole package to go in the rapture. For the cake to be right you need all the ingredients.
Blood-water-Spirit.

Elder ... do you not see the major flaws in your theology you have asserted this evening that the righteous are not rapture ready.

[rgcraig]

Can you have the Holy Ghost living in you (after you have repented and been baptized) if you haven't spoken in tongues?

??

[stmatthew]

Actually, he is referring to speaking in tongues...not the new birth which takes place at repentance when one places their faith/trust in what Jesus did for them at Calvary...trusting that the blood of Jesus washes away their sin and that his righteousness is imputed to us.

So now we receive the the Holy Ghost 2 times. Once when we repent, and the next time when we receive the GIFT of the SPIRIT which is the PROMISE.

[SDG]

So now we receive the the Holy Ghost 2 times. Once when we repent, and the next time when we receive the GIFT of the SPIRIT which is the PROMISE.

Matt are the righteous not rapture ready????

[Steve Epley]

Elder ... do you not see the major flaws in your theology you have asserted this evening that the righteous are not rapture ready.

Were the 5 foolish VIRGINS????????????????????????

Also Jesus talking about the Devil going out of a person and returning finding the vessel swept, clean and EMPTY and he came back. Clean but empty is NOT enough.

[stmatthew]

Matt are the righteous not rapture ready????

I have already answered you, Only those that have repented of their sins, been water baptized in Jesus name for the remission of those sins (justified), and received the gift of the Holy Ghost are ready to meet the Lord. If you do not have the gift of the Holy Ghost, you are not HIS.

[SDG]

Were the 5 foolish VIRGINS????????????????????????

Also Jesus talking about the Devil going out of a person and returning finding the vessel swept, clean and EMPTY and he came back. Clean but empty is NOT enough.

:ty

[stmatthew]

Daniel, do you believe that everyone receives the gift of the Spirit (the promise) at repentance before baptism?

[SDG]

I have already answered you, Only those that have repented of their sins, been water baptized in Jesus name for the remission of those sins (justified), and received the gift of the Holy Ghost are ready to meet the Lord. If you do not have the gift of the Holy Ghost, you are not HIS.

:ty

[SDG]

Daniel, do you believe that everyone receives the gift of the Spirit (the promise) at repentance before baptism?

Not sure what your real question is ... are you asking if I received the baptism of the Holy Ghost before I was water baptized ... yes ... I was FILLED BUT I GUESS I WASNT CLEAN LIKE MY BROTHER EPLEY SO ELOQUENTLY POINTED OUT when he used the 10 virgins example.

[J-Roc]

So now we receive the the Holy Ghost 2 times. Once when we repent, and the next time when we receive the GIFT of the SPIRIT which is the PROMISE.


You are born again at repentance when you place your faith in Jesus Christ and trust that his sacrifice on the cross is enough to wash away your sins...the baptism is for empowerment among other things...a wonderful experience for the Believer!

[J-Roc]

Were the 5 foolish VIRGINS????????????????????????

Also Jesus talking about the Devil going out of a person and returning finding the vessel swept, clean and EMPTY and he came back. Clean but empty is NOT enough.


That is a distortion of what Jesus is implying....when Jesus spoke about devils going out of a person he was referring to an evil generation...we're talking about Saints of God here, bro.

[stmatthew]

Not sure what your real question is ... are you asking if I received the baptism of the Holy Ghost before I was water baptized ... yes ... I was FILLED BUT I GUESS I WASNT CLEAN LIKE MY BROTHER EPLEY SO ELOQUENTLY POINTED OUT when he used the 10 virgins example.

You are born again at repentance when you place your faith in Jesus Christ and trust that his sacrifice on the cross is enough to wash away your sins...the baptism is for empowerment among other things...a wonderful experience for the Believer!

How do you guys reconcile your thoughts with Acts 2:38 where it says that one repents, is water baptised, and receives the gift (not Baptized as you believe 2 different works) of the Spirit, and then labels this gift the Promise.

Since this scripture conveys the idea that everyone does not receive this gift or promise of the Spirit at repentance, and that most receive this gift after water baptism, would not this mean that everyone is not born again when they repent?

[stmatthew]

I may have confused you with my post, so let me ask this, when does one receive the gift or promise of the Spirit?

[JN Anderson]

Daniel:

I believe the greatest question we need ask (to further clarify the topic) should be something like this, "Is Justification equal to salvation?" Is it the same experience. My answer is no.

[seguidordejesus]

I thought Daniel had a job, but it appears that he's at home all the time, from the posting he's been doing.

[SDG]

Daniel:

I believe the greatest question we need ask (to further clarify the topic) should be something like this, "Is Justification equal to salvation?" Is it the same experience. My answer is no.

Sabellius please present your case ... Explain justification ... remission and how they correlate to salvation. I know you are a SEAGRAVIAN PAJCer.

[SDG]

I thought Daniel had a job, but it appears that he's at home all the time, from the posting he's been doing.

You're lurking and not posting.

[Sam]

However you want to slice it, they had no access to the benefits of the covenant without it. None.

Circumcision was pretty much a cut and dried issue...no pun intended. ;)

Joshua 5:1-8, seems like circumcision was not done during the 40 years of wandering in the wilderness.

[seguidordejesus]

You're lurking and not posting.

My wife's sick with the flu, so I'm busy :)

[JN Anderson]

Sabellius please present your case ... Explain justification ... remission and how they correlate to salvation. I know you are a SEAGRAVIAN PAJCer.

I thought I did, somewhat at least. What, in particular, are you interested in knowing?

[SDG]

Joshua 5:1-8, seems like circumcision was not done during the 40 years of wandering in the wilderness.

Give them Heaven, Sam.

[stmatthew]

Not sure what your real question is ... are you asking if I received the baptism of the Holy Ghost before I was water baptized ... yes ... I was FILLED BUT I GUESS I WASNT CLEAN LIKE MY BROTHER EPLEY SO ELOQUENTLY POINTED OUT when he used the 10 virgins example.

You are born again at repentance when you place your faith in Jesus Christ and trust that his sacrifice on the cross is enough to wash away your sins...the baptism is for empowerment among other things...a wonderful experience for the Believer!

How do you guys reconcile your thoughts with Acts 2:38 where it says that one repents, is water baptised, and receives the gift (not Baptized as you believe 2 different works) of the Spirit, and then labels this gift the Promise.

Since this scripture conveys the idea that everyone does not receive this gift or promise of the Spirit at repentance, and that most receive this gift after water baptism, would not this mean that everyone is not born again when they repent?

I may have confused you with my post, so let me ask this, when does one receive the gift or promise of the Spirit?

Bumpity bump

[stmatthew]

Joshua 5:1-8, seems like circumcision was not done during the 40 years of wandering in the wilderness.

During the time they were dropping like flies?

[Sam]

From the UPC Articles of Faith:
-----------------------------------
REPENTANCE

Pardon and forgiveness of sins is obtained by genuine repentance, a confessing and forsaking of sins. We are justified by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ (Romans 5:1).
John the Baptist preached repentance, Jesus proclaimed it, and the apostles emphasized
it to both Jews and Gentiles (Acts 2:38, 11:18, 17:30).

The word "repentance" means a change of views and purpose, change of heart,
change of mind, change of life, transformation, etc.

Jesus said, "Except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish" (Luke 13:3).

Luke 24:47 says, "And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached
in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem."

-----------------------

Sounds like "officially" justification, pardon, and forgiveness happen at repentance. I don't know how closely the current article of faith on repentance resembles the original one in 1945. The one above is, I think, the way the Manual currently reads. Would one of you who have a current UPC Manual check that out and let us know if that is how the article on repentance currently reads?

[Sam]

During the time they were dropping like flies?

Well, the ones that died were the generation that came out of Egypt and they were circumcised. I think this circumcision here in Joshua 5 applies to all those who were born during the 40 years in the wilderness.

[stmatthew]

Well, the ones that died were the generation that came out of Egypt and they were circumcised. I think this circumcision here in Joshua 5 applies to all those who were born during the 40 years in the wilderness.


The point was that these folks had forsaken the covenant, and even though God continued to provide, they were not able to get the promise.

[Felicity]

Lessee.......

Seagravian Justification

Epleyan Justification

What was the third Dan? :)

[JN Anderson]

From the UPC Articles of Faith:
-----------------------------------
REPENTANCE

Pardon and forgiveness of sins is obtained by genuine repentance, a confessing and forsaking of sins. We are justified by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ (Romans 5:1).
John the Baptist preached repentance, Jesus proclaimed it, and the apostles emphasized
it to both Jews and Gentiles (Acts 2:38, 11:18, 17:30).

The word "repentance" means a change of views and purpose, change of heart,
change of mind, change of life, transformation, etc.

Jesus said, "Except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish" (Luke 13:3).

Luke 24:47 says, "And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached
in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem."

-----------------------

Sounds like "officially" justification, pardon, and forgiveness happen at repentance. I don't know how closely the current article of faith on repentance resembles the original one in 1945. The one above is, I think, the way the Manual currently reads. Would one of you who have a current UPC Manual check that out and let us know if that is how the article on repentance currently reads?

Sam:

The Justification aspect was recently diced around at the 2003 Symposium between David Bernard (author, in large part, of the AOF) and Daniel Seagraves. I believe that it will soon be reworded. Also, the text above does not, IMO, seem to say that Justification occurs at repentance. It explicitly says, as does Scripture, that Justification is by faith.

[JN Anderson]

Lessee.......

Seagravian Justification

Epleyan Justification

What was the third Dan? :)

Bernardian.

[JN Anderson]

Justification:

The doctrine of Justification knows at least two views (both views were presented at the 2003 UGST Symposium) in the UPC. Dr. Bernard holds the most prominent view (Justification after the entire New Birth) and then there is the view of Dr. Segraves (Justification at the point of faith). The latter view is the one I hold. I would caution my friends and enemies, at this point however, that this view does not do violence to what we currently believe about the New Birth--for the most part (some people have some odd ideas).

In Genesis 15:5-6 Abraham’s only response to God’s promise, at this point, was that "he believed in the LORD." The verb translated "believed," indicates that Abraham trusted God to keep His promise. Actually no other response was expected or possible at this point. Although the genuineness of Abraham’s faith was later demonstrated, in a tangible way, as he offered Isaac, it serves Paul’s purpose to focus on the fact that Abraham was justified apart from and prior to works (the same example is given of David in Romans 4:5-8). I believe that, although faith results in obedience to God’s commands, justification occurs at the point of faith.

Genesis 15:6 indicates that because Abraham trusted in the LORD, God imputed or reckoned righteousness to Him. Because Abraham trusted God, he had a relationship with God. Genesis 15:6 says nothing about Abraham’s personal righteousness; it does not suggest that righteousness was imparted to him so that he was regenerated. In fact, according to Paul, just the opposite was the case: God “justifies the ungodly” (Romans 4:5). The only possible meaning for this is that when ungodly persons put their trust in God, their “faith is accounted for righteousness” (Romans 4:5).

[Felicity]

Bernardian.Thank you sir.

What do you think of these 3 new designations Sab? :heeheehee

[JN Anderson]

Justification:

The doctrine of Justification knows at least two views (both views were presented at the 2003 UGST Symposium) in the UPC. Dr. Bernard holds the most prominent view (Justification is the experience of salvation or equal to salvation) and then there is the second--the view of Dr. Segraves (Justification at the point of faith). The latter view is the one I hold. I would caution my friends and enemies, at this point however, that this view does not do violence to what we currently believe about the New Birth--for the most part (some people have some odd ideas).

In Genesis 15:5-6 Abraham’s only response to God’s promise, at that point, was that "he believed in the LORD." The verb translated "believed," indicates that Abraham trusted God to keep His promise. Actually no other response was even expected at that point. Although the genuineness of Abraham’s faith was later demonstrated, in a tangible way, as he offered Isaac, it serves Paul’s purpose to focus on the fact that Abraham was justified apart from and prior to works (the same example is given of David in Romans 4:5-8). I believe that, although faith results in obedience to God’s commands, justification occurs at the point of faith.

Genesis 15:6 indicates that because Abraham trusted in the LORD, God imputed or reckoned righteousness to Him. Because Abraham trusted God, he had a relationship with God. Genesis 15:6 says nothing about Abraham’s personal righteousness; it does not suggest that righteousness was imparted to him so that he was regenerated. In fact, according to Paul, just the opposite was the case: God “justifies the ungodly” (Romans 4:5). The only possible meaning for this is that when ungodly persons put their trust in God, their “faith is accounted for righteousness” (Romans 4:5).

[JN Anderson]

Thank you sir.

What do you think of these 3 new designations Sab? :heeheehee

In the end I believe much of this is semantics. I do not like the designations however because I am of the view that Justification occurs at the point of faith and not, as Bernard feels, at the full demonstration of saving faith (i.e. New Birth fully attained). The bible explicitly says:

Romans 4:3 "For what does the Scripture say? Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." NKJV (c.f. Genesis 15:6)

[stmatthew]

Sabellius,

Given the definition of remission is so close to that of Justification, why do none of the leading scholars believe that justification occurs at remission of sins?

From Acts 2:38.....

Remission - aphesis {af'-es-is}


1) release from bondage or imprisonment

2) forgiveness or pardon, of sins (letting them go as if they had never been committed), remission of the penalty

[JN Anderson]

Sabellius,

Given the definition of remission is so close to that of Justification, why do none of the leading scholars believe that justification occurs at remission of sins?

From Acts 2:38.....

Remission - aphesis {af'-es-is}


1) release from bondage or imprisonment

2) forgiveness or pardon, of sins (letting them go as if they had never been committed), remission of the penalty

STM:

I do not believe that Justification and remission are synonomous. I am a little confused as to how some came to believe this. Remission is, clearly, different than Justification. They are different theological concepts with different meanings and directions, i.e. one is declared to be and the other is declared NOT to be.

Remission involves a pardoning or discharge of a sin debt or penalty. Justification is something that God does at the point of faith. It is his declaration of righteousness although not the impartation of righteousness.

I believe remission can be analogized like this: A prisoner released from prison, or forgiven, has his record of sin or iniquity discharged. The legal record is now withdrawn. Repentance is the visceral, inward turning of man from one direction to another (towards God).

[Felicity]

STM:

I do not believe that Justification and remission are synonomous. I am a little confused as to how some came to believe this. Remission is, clearly, different than Justification. They are different theological concepts with different meanings and directions, i.e. one is declared to be and the other is declared NOT to be.

Remission involves a pardoning or discharge of a sin debt or penalty. Justification is something that God does at the point of faith. It is his declaration of righteousness although not the impartation of righteousness.

I believe remission can be analogized like this: A prisoner released from prison, or forgiven, has his record of sin or iniquity discharged. The legal record is now withdrawn. Repentance is the visceral, inward turning of man from one direction to another (towards God). Good post Sab. I agree 100%.

I'm amazed at some of the misunderstanding and misapplication of these very basic principles and aspects of salvation doctrine.

[Felicity]

In the end I believe much of this is semantics. I do not like the designations however because I am of the view that Justification occurs at the point of faith and not, as Bernard feels, at the full demonstration of saving faith (i.e. New Birth fully attained). The bible explicitly says:

Romans 4:3 "For what does the Scripture say? Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness." NKJV (c.f. Genesis 15:6)And I agree with you!

[Praxeas]

Sam:

The Justification aspect was recently diced around at the 2003 Symposium between David Bernard (author, in large part, of the AOF) and Daniel Seagraves. I believe that it will soon be reworded. Also, the text above does not, IMO, seem to say that Justification occurs at repentance. It explicitly says, as does Scripture, that Justification is by faith.

I agree with you. I pointed this out to Bernie Gillespie in email. He brushed it off

[Truly Blessed]

STM:

I do not believe that Justification and remission are synonomous. I am a little confused as to how some came to believe this. Remission is, clearly, different than Justification. They are different theological concepts with different meanings and directions, i.e. one is declared to be and the other is declared NOT to be.

Remission involves a pardoning or discharge of a sin debt or penalty. Justification is something that God does at the point of faith. It is his declaration of righteousness although not the impartation of righteousness.

I believe remission can be analogized like this: A prisoner released from prison, or forgiven, has his record of sin or iniquity discharged. The legal record is now withdrawn. Repentance is the visceral, inward turning of man from one direction to another (towards God).This issue has to be considered in the light of the atonement. There is a difference between atonement and pardon. The fact is, the atonement did not actually accomplish the forgiveness of sins of a single individual, but simply made possible and justifiable such forgiveness. We were provisionally saved at Calvary, but not actually and personally. The death of Christ was an expiation for all , but an acquittal for none. When each individual comes to Christ for salvation, God, by a free act of His mercy and grace, on the merits of the blood, must pardon that person who asks forgiveness, accomplish their adoption, (to which the Holy Spirit bears witness), and effect by the Spirit the instantaneous change of nature (heart) known as regeneration.

Understanding this we know that a person is justified so that they can be sanctified. IMO Paul makes it clear when he writes in Romans 3:24 , "Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:" that justification is rooted in the atonement and is represented in that initial free act of mercy and grace.

"Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:" (Romans 5:1)

It is this peace with God, along with the witness of the Spirit with our spirit, that truly assures us of this new life we have entered into by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

[SDG]

This issue has to be considered in the light of the atonement. There is a difference between atonement and pardon. The fact is, the atonement did not actually accomplish the forgiveness of sins of a single individual, but simply made possible and justifiable such forgiveness. We were provisionally saved at Calvary, but not actually and personally. The death of Christ was an expiation for all , but an acquittal for none. When each individual comes to Christ for salvation, God, by a free act of His mercy and grace, on the merits of the blood, must pardon that person who asks forgiveness, accomplish their adoption, (to which the Holy Spirit bears witness), and effect by the Spirit the instantaneous change of nature (heart) known as regeneration.

Understanding this we know that a person is justified so that they can be sanctified. IMO Paul makes it clear when he writes in Romans 3:24 , "Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:" that justification is rooted in the atonement and is represented in that initial free act of mercy and grace.

"Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:" (Romans 5:1)

It is this peace with God, along with the witness of the Spirit with our spirit, that truly assures us of this new life we have entered into by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

Oustanding as always Bishop. Are we to believe then if a person comes to Christ for salvation not only are they justified ... there sins are remitted?

[SDG]

STM:

I do not believe that Justification and remission are synonomous. I am a little confused as to how some came to believe this. Remission is, clearly, different than Justification. They are different theological concepts with different meanings and directions, i.e. one is declared to be and the other is declared NOT to be.

Remission involves a pardoning or discharge of a sin debt or penalty. Justification is something that God does at the point of faith. It is his declaration of righteousness although not the impartation of righteousness.

I believe remission can be analogized like this: A prisoner released from prison, or forgiven, has his record of sin or iniquity discharged. The legal record is now withdrawn. Repentance is the visceral, inward turning of man from one direction to another (towards God).


I too agree with you Sabellius ... however if we are justified are we now not acquitted. Doesn't redemption pay the price for our sin record?

[Steve Epley]

This issue has to be considered in the light of the atonement. There is a difference between atonement and pardon. The fact is, the atonement did not actually accomplish the forgiveness of sins of a single individual, but simply made possible and justifiable such forgiveness. We were provisionally saved at Calvary, but not actually and personally. The death of Christ was an expiation for all , but an acquittal for none. When each individual comes to Christ for salvation, God, by a free act of His mercy and grace, on the merits of the blood, must pardon that person who asks forgiveness, accomplish their adoption, (to which the Holy Spirit bears witness), and effect by the Spirit the instantaneous change of nature (heart) known as regeneration.

Understanding this we know that a person is justified so that they can be sanctified. IMO Paul makes it clear when he writes in Romans 3:24 , "Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:" that justification is rooted in the atonement and is represented in that initial free act of mercy and grace.

"Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:" (Romans 5:1)

It is this peace with God, along with the witness of the Spirit with our spirit, that truly assures us of this new life we have entered into by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.

TB surprizingly I am certainly in accord with nearly every word you have written here with the exception of remission of sins I believe it is there man is justified and declared righteous. Repentance and remission of sin imputes our sins to the sin bearer and His righteousness is imputed to us.

[SDG]

Great quotes from Crakjak and Felicty ....

I don't see anything added to faith in Romans 5.1, to be justified and to have peace with God. This is the gate, friends everything else proceeds because one has entered the gate, JESUS CHRIST.

We should not burden new believers with more than is necessary to get started, faith establishes right relationship with God. Like a new born child let them grow, TRUST the comforter to lead and to guide, as they are nurtured by the Word and the love of the body of Christ.

Sanctification is an ongoing process. It starts with repentance.

Justification also takes place at repentance. It takes place by faith ... by appropriating what Christ did for us at Calvary.

[SDG]

Sabellius,

Given the definition of remission is so close to that of Justification, why do none of the leading scholars believe that justification occurs at remission of sins?

From Acts 2:38.....

Remission - aphesis {af'-es-is}


1) release from bondage or imprisonment

2) forgiveness or pardon, of sins (letting them go as if they had never been committed), remission of the penalty

Leading scholars?? ... or do you mean the one's you subscribe to ... Seagraves holds a position somewhat similar to most Protestant theologians

[SDG]

bump ...

[Praxeas]

Interestingly, I have come to realize there are at least 3 schools of thought on the relational concepts of justification and remission in the PAJC view.

All believe remission of sins takes place at water baptism ... but there is no consensus on when we experience justification.

Here are the 3 schools of thought -

Some PAJCers believe justification happens before baptism and remission at baptism


Sabellius:


Some believe justification happens after water baptism along with remission

Elder Epley:








Some believe justification is not complete until all the 3 steps are completed with remission occurring at baptism

David Bernard, The New Birth



_______________________________

The questions that beg to be asked are:

1. What is justification? When does it happen?
2. What is remission? Does it happen at water baptism?
3. What are the underlying reasons for this difference of opinion?

Let's refrain from analogies and let's make our points based on the Word.
Justification occurs at faith...if it did not then you could not repent and receive forgiveness. Justification puts you positionally in the right place to receive the blessings of God and what follows with regeneration

[Praxeas]

Note. Abraham was justified in believing God but he would never have received the promise land if he did not act on that belief

[SDG]

Note. Abraham was justified in believing God but he would never have received the promise land if he did not act on that belief

so regeneration does not come from above but from our works of obedience????

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by mizpeh
Dan, your response to my question is "oh boy."

MOW says we are justified by faith and saved. Sabellius says we are justified by faith and not yet saved. Which is it? Is justification the same as salvation?

Dan, what do you say? or even better what do you think the Bible says?

[ManOfWord]

The problem with a "graded/progressive" 3 step plan is that it disqualifies the vast majority of Christians who have EVER lived including those who have been martyred for Him without exception.

It "forces" God to reject, revoke and seemingly disavow a person's relationship with Him for decades or whatever length of time they walked with Him on a technicality.

[SDG]

Chan posted on this subject

Where does the Bible say we are declared innocent? Notice Romans 3:9-19 (KJV):

"What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: Their feet are swift to shed blood: Destruction and misery are in their ways: And the way of peace have they not known: There is no fear of God before their eyes. Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God."

Yes, justification is a legal term but not one that means we are declared innocent.

[Truly Blessed]

We are justified by faith. Anything that man does such as repentance and baptism is the justification of our faith. Romans 8:7-9 makes an important statement that we cannot overlook in discussing the process of salvation. Paul wrote, "The sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God. You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ."

If the sinful mind is hostile to God and does not submit to God's law, furthermore it can't do so, then something has to happen to the sinful nature of man that causes a person to acknowledge Jesus Christ as Saviour and Lord, and his own sinfulness, and produces a willingness to submit to the command of God to repent and be baptized.

You tell me! Who is right? Scripture or those who want us to believe that man changes his own mind and acts against his own sinful nature and contrary to the hostility of his sinful nature that opposes God, repents and is baptized?

If the Scripture says that it can't happen then that settles it for me! The answer then is that regeneration has to take place that transforms the nature of that person before they can submit to God.

"The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned." (1Cor.2:14)

Therefore if someone does accept the things of the Spirit, and does understand them, then the logical conclusion is that the Spirit has worked regeneration in that person's life.

"For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God." (1Cor.1:18)

Notice what Paul says here. We can preach the gospel to the sinner, but it is foolishness to them that perish. However, to them who are saved it is the power of God. Through regeneration they to whom the preaching of the cross was foolishness, now having been transformed by the Spirit see it as the power of God.

This my friends, is what Jesus was talking about when He told Nicodemus, "Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." (Jn.3:3)


And this is why that a sinner can come to Jesus Christ and in one moment experience new life! It is this regeneration that causes him to suddenly be filled with a love for God, to want to worship and serve God, and desire to do whatever the Word of God requires of him in order to walk with God. His desires for sin and the world are replaced with a desire for the things of God. No matter what some folks here want sinners to believe, they don't have to wait until they speak in tongues to experience this new life! Praise the Lord!

[SDG]

We are justified by faith. Anything that man does such as repentance and baptism is the justification of our faith. Romans 8:7-9 makes an important statement that we cannot overlook in discussing the process of salvation. Paul wrote, "The sinful mind is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God. You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ."

If the sinful mind is hostile to God and does not submit to God's law, furthermore it can't do so, then something has to happen to the sinful nature of man that causes a person to acknowledge Jesus Christ as Saviour and Lord, and his own sinfulness, and produces a willingness to submit to the command of God to repent and be baptized.

You tell me! Who is right? Scripture or those who want us to believe that man changes his own mind and acts against his own sinful nature and contrary to the hostility of his sinful nature that opposes God, repents and is baptized?

If the Scripture says that it can't happen then that settles it for me! The answer then is that regeneration has to take place that transforms the nature of that person before they can submit to God.

"The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned." (1Cor.2:14)

Therefore if someone does accept the things of the Spirit, and does understand them, then the logical conclusion is that the Spirit has worked regeneration in that person's life.

"For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God." (1Cor.1:18)

Notice what Paul says here. We can preach the gospel to the sinner, but it is foolishness to them that perish. However, to them who are saved it is the power of God. Through regeneration they to whom the preaching of the cross was foolishness, now having been transformed by the Spirit see it as the power of God.

This my friends, is what Jesus was talking about when He told Nicodemus, "Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God." (Jn.3:3)


And this is why that a sinner can come to Jesus Christ and in one moment experience new life! It is this regeneration that causes him to suddenly be filled with a love for God, to want to worship and serve God, and desire to do whatever the Word of God requires of him in order to walk with God. His desires for sin and the world are replaced with a desire for the things of God. No matter what some folks here want sinners to believe, they don't have to wait until they speak in tongues to experience this new life! Praise the Lord!

Dan's your greatest fan ... What is the correlation between justification, remission and salvation TB???

[JN Anderson]

Originally Posted by mizpeh
Dan, your response to my question is "oh boy."

MOW says we are justified by faith and saved. Sabellius says we are justified by faith and not yet saved. Which is it? Is justification the same as salvation?

Dan, what do you say? or even better what do you think the Bible says?

Where do we find, in the scriptures of course, that Justification is the "experience of salvation" (Bernardian view)?

[JN Anderson]

The problem with a "graded/progressive" 3 step plan is that it disqualifies the vast majority of Christians who have EVER lived including those who have been martyred for Him without exception.

It "forces" God to reject, revoke and seemingly disavow a person's relationship with Him for decades or whatever length of time they walked with Him on a technicality.

There are those who still hold to a varied view of Seymour's Light Doctrine.

[stmatthew]

Leading scholars?? ... or do you mean the one's you subscribe to ... Seagraves holds a position somewhat similar to most Protestant theologians

I was just being kind. I do subscribe to anyone.

[stmatthew]

Sabellius,

Given the definition of remission is so close to that of Justification, why do none of the leading scholars believe that justification occurs at remission of sins?

From Acts 2:38.....

Remission - aphesis {af'-es-is}


1) release from bondage or imprisonment

2) forgiveness or pardon, of sins (letting them go as if they had never been committed), remission of the penalty

STM:

I do not believe that Justification and remission are synonomous. I am a little confused as to how some came to believe this. Remission is, clearly, different than Justification. They are different theological concepts with different meanings and directions, i.e. one is declared to be and the other is declared NOT to be.

Remission involves a pardoning or discharge of a sin debt or penalty. Justification is something that God does at the point of faith. It is his declaration of righteousness although not the impartation of righteousness.

I believe remission can be analogized like this: A prisoner released from prison, or forgiven, has his record of sin or iniquity discharged. The legal record is now withdrawn. Repentance is the visceral, inward turning of man from one direction to another (towards God).

By no means to I claim any scholarly insight into this. And I agree that the 2 are no exactly the same thing. But can one be justified and yet still have their sins upon them? Can on have their sins remitted and not be justified?

I have always heard that the term justified basically means, just as if I had never sinned. The Sins of the past are taken away and cast as far as the east is from the west. I just do not see where one can be justified, and still be in need of remission of sins.

Again, I claim to only be a student on this subject.

[rrford]

By no means to I claim any scholarly insight into this. And I agree that the 2 are no exactly the same thing. But can one be justified and yet still have their sins upon them? Can on have their sins remitted and not be justified?

I have always heard that the term justified basically means, just as if I had never sinned. The Sins of the past are taken away and cast as far as the east is from the west. I just do not see where one can be justified, and still be in need of remission of sins.

Again, I claim to only be a student on this subject.

Was Abraham justified and yet his sin(s) remained?

[SDG]

By no means to I claim any scholarly insight into this. And I agree that the 2 are no exactly the same thing. But can one be justified and yet still have their sins upon them? Can on have their sins remitted and not be justified?

I have always heard that the term justified basically means, just as if I had never sinned. The Sins of the past are taken away and cast as far as the east is from the west. I just do not see where one can be justified, and still be in need of remission of sins.

Again, I claim to only be a student on this subject.

I too agree with you, Matt ..

they, justification and remission, must work together simultaneously... it only makes sense ... if I were a water and spirit adherent ... the only view that makes sense to me is the Epleyian view ....

when one is declared righteous your penalty is cleared ... no two ways about it ...

I know some will respond with a clever analogy about paperwork that needs to filled out ...or something along the lines ... but that's just fluff....

of course, I believe this happens at the point of faith and subsequent repentance ...

but you already know that's what makes me a PCIer and you an EPLYIAN PAJCer

[rrford]

I too agree with you, Matt ..

they, justification and remission, must work together simultaneously... it only makes sense ... if I were a water and spirit adherent ... the only view that makes sense to me is the Epleyian view ....

when one is declared righteous your penalty is cleared ... no two ways about it ...

I know some will respond with a clever analogy about paperwork that needs to filled out ...or something along the lines ... but that's just fluff....

of course, I believe this happens at the point of faith and subsequent repentance ...

but you already know that's what makes me a PCIer and you an EPLYIAN PAJCer
I think some questions arise when we consider Abraham. He was justified but were his sins actually cleared? Or, for that matter, what about all of OT ISrael?

[SDG]

I think some questions arise when we consider Abraham. He was justified but were his sins actually cleared? Or, for that matter, what about all of OT ISrael?

so when were their sins remitted, RR? If ever?

[Scott Hutchinson]

I'm not interested in casting people to eternal destruction or damnation,but I do feel it is God's will for all people to repent , be baptized in Jesus Name and be Spirit filled.

That's what I believe I try to add to people's faith like Paul in Acts 19.

[rrford]

so when were their sins remitted, RR? If ever?

Good question. Have an opinion?

[SDG]

Good question. Have an opinion?

I asked you ... RR ... you're a better theologian than I.

[Felicity]

God promised forgiveness in the OT and that their sins would be as far from Him as east is from west.

Sounds like remittance to me.

[stmatthew]

I think some questions arise when we consider Abraham. He was justified but were his sins actually cleared? Or, for that matter, what about all of OT ISrael?

so when were their sins remitted, RR? If ever?

Good question. Have an opinion?

I asked you ... RR ... you're a better theologian than I.

I personally have always thought that all of the old testament sins were pushed forward to Calvary. This is where the school master was taking Israel.

We on the other hand, reach back to Calvary, but because the new covenant is better than the first, we not only have a sacrifice, but we have the completion of Gods redemption plan.

[SDG]

Hebrews 9

The Blood of Christ
11When Christ came as high priest of the good things that are already here, he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not man-made, that is to say, not a part of this creation. 12He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption. 13The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. 14How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death,[c] so that we may serve the living God!

[B]15For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

16In the case of a will,[d] it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, 17because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while the one who made it is living. 18This is why even the first covenant was not put into effect without blood. 19When Moses had proclaimed every commandment of the law to all the people, he took the blood of calves, together with water, scarlet wool and branches of hyssop, and sprinkled the scroll and all the people. 20He said, "This is the blood of the covenant, which God has commanded you to keep."[e] 21In the same way, he sprinkled with the blood both the tabernacle and everything used in its ceremonies. 22In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

23It was necessary, then, for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24For Christ did not enter a man-made sanctuary that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God's presence. 25Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. 26Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

The Bible itself is its own best commentary. Hebrews 9:15 reaffirms the truth that the death of Christ was the legal basis for God having forgiven the sins of the Old Testament saints - "And for this cause he (Jesus Christ) is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance."

God very definitely FORGAVE sins many times in the Old Testament, and He certainly PUNISHED His people for their sins; but the legal basis for His having forgiven,,or remitted the sins of His people in the Old Testament times was the future and predicted death of Christ on the cross of Calvary; He is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8). The death of Christ satisfies the legal requirements of His having remitted and forgiven the sins of the O.T. saints. The blood of Christ declares the righteousness of God in forgiving sins, both in Old Testament times and now in the New.

So why then does the New Covenant ... as taught in the NT .. used aphesis, almost exclusively, including in Acts 2:38, to describe forgiveness/remission???

because .... aphesis/forgiveness/remission is found in the Lamb of God ... the work of Jesus Christ on the cross ... along with our propitiation ... expiation ... atonement... redemption... reconciliation ... and our future justification. ... [you name it ... He did it]

[Truly Blessed]

Dan's your greatest fan ... What is the correlation between justification, remission and salvation TB???Romans 3:23-28 in the Amplified Bible gives a pretty good explanation of what happens when we place our faith in Jesus Christ for salvation.

"Since all have sinned and are falling short of the honor and glory which God bestows and receives.

[All] are justified and made upright and in right standing with God, freely and gratuitously by His grace (His unmerited favor and mercy), through the redemption which is [provided] in Christ Jesus,

Whom God put forward [before the eyes of all] as a mercy seat and propitiation by His blood [the cleansing and life-giving sacrifice of atonement and reconciliation, to be received] through faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in His divine forbearance He had passed over and ignored former sins without punishment.

It was to demonstrate and prove at the present time (in the now season) that He Himself is righteous and that He justifies and accepts as righteous him who has [true] faith in Jesus.

Then what becomes of [our] pride and [our] boasting? It is excluded (banished, ruled out entirely). On what principle? [On the principle] of doing good deeds? No, but on the principle of faith."

Three-steppers miss so much of the amazing dynamic that is present in the conversion/regeneration aspect of the sinner's encounter with God through faith. How anyone can minimalize the impact of faith in Jesus Christ after reading Scriptures like these is beyond me.

My understanding of Scripture leads me to believe that we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. I am justified by faith based on the atonement that is a finished work already provided for me while I was yet a sinner and appropriated the moment I believed the gospel. Remission is forgiveness granted through the act of repentance which is a change of mind that has been produced by a change of heart and evidenced by my obedience in identifying with Christ in water baptism.

There's not much boasting on the part of the repentent sinner when he realizes what God freely provided for Him right up front. It's when man, (wanting to feel he has something to contribute and thus boast in), pushes himself forward as having accomplished something that he gets messed up and suddenly gifts become requirements that sets him above others because he has met a requirement that others haven't met.

[Scott Hutchinson]

TB I do read what you say , and I respect you.

[rrford]

Romans 3:23-28 in the Amplified Bible gives a pretty good explanation of what happens when we place our faith in Jesus Christ for salvation.

"Since all have sinned and are falling short of the honor and glory which God bestows and receives.

[All] are justified and made upright and in right standing with God, freely and gratuitously by His grace (His unmerited favor and mercy), through the redemption which is [provided] in Christ Jesus,

Whom God put forward [before the eyes of all] as a mercy seat and propitiation by His blood [the cleansing and life-giving sacrifice of atonement and reconciliation, to be received] through faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in His divine forbearance He had passed over and ignored former sins without punishment.

It was to demonstrate and prove at the present time (in the now season) that He Himself is righteous and that He justifies and accepts as righteous him who has [true] faith in Jesus.

Then what becomes of [our] pride and [our] boasting? It is excluded (banished, ruled out entirely). On what principle? [On the principle] of doing good deeds? No, but on the principle of faith."

Three-steppers miss so much of the amazing dynamic that is present in the conversion/regeneration aspect of the sinner's encounter with God through faith. How anyone can minimalize the impact of faith in Jesus Christ after reading Scriptures like these is beyond me.

My understanding of Scripture leads me to believe that we are saved by grace through faith in Jesus Christ. I am justified by faith based on the atonement that is a finished work already provided for me while I was yet a sinner and appropriated the moment I believed the gospel. Remission is forgiveness granted through the act of repentance which is a change of mind that has been produced by a change of heart and evidenced by my obedience in identifying with Christ in water baptism.

There's not much boasting on the part of the repentent sinner when he realizes what God freely provided for Him right up front. It's when man, (wanting to feel he has something to contribute and thus boast in), pushes himself forward as having accomplished something that he gets messed up and suddenly gifts become requirements that sets him above others because he has met a requirement that others haven't met.

3 steppers don't miss as much as you would liketo imply. The real question becomes whether faith and repentance can be separated. Does one believe and then repent? Does one repent and then believe? Is one justified when they believe but have not repented?

[stmatthew]

Hebrews 9

The Blood of Christ
11When Christ came as high priest of the good things that are already here, he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not man-made, that is to say, not a part of this creation. 12He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption. 13The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. 14How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death,[c] so that we may serve the living God!

[B]15For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

16In the case of a will,[d] it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, 17because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while the one who made it is living. 18This is why even the first covenant was not put into effect without blood. 19When Moses had proclaimed every commandment of the law to all the people, he took the blood of calves, together with water, scarlet wool and branches of hyssop, and sprinkled the scroll and all the people. 20He said, "This is the blood of the covenant, which God has commanded you to keep."[e] 21In the same way, he sprinkled with the blood both the tabernacle and everything used in its ceremonies. 22In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

23It was necessary, then, for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24For Christ did not enter a man-made sanctuary that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God's presence. 25Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. 26Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

The Bible itself is its own best commentary. Hebrews 9:15 reaffirms the truth that the death of Christ was the legal basis for God having forgiven the sins of the Old Testament saints - "And for this cause he (Jesus Christ) is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance."

God very definitely FORGAVE sins many times in the Old Testament, and He certainly PUNISHED His people for their sins; but the legal basis for His having forgiven,,or remitted the sins of His people in the Old Testament times was the future and predicted death of Christ on the cross of Calvary; He is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8). The death of Christ satisfies the legal requirements of His having remitted and forgiven the sins of the O.T. saints. The blood of Christ declares the righteousness of God in forgiving sins, both in Old Testament times and now in the New.

So why then does the New Covenant ... as taught in the NT .. used aphesis, almost exclusively, including in Acts 2:38, to describe forgiveness/remission???

because .... aphesis/forgiveness/remission is found in the Lamb of God ... the work of Jesus Christ on the cross ... along with our propitiation ... expiation ... atonement... redemption... reconciliation ... and our future justification. ... [you name it ... He did it]

Let me throw this in here Dan, was it only the work of the cross that brought atonement? Would the Israelites have been atoned on the day of atonement,if the high priest had just killed the lamb, and did nothing else?

[stmatthew]

How do you guys reconcile your thoughts with Acts 2:38 where it says that one repents, is water baptised, and receives the gift (not Baptized as you believe 2 different works) of the Spirit, and then labels this gift the Promise.

Since this scripture conveys the idea that everyone does not receive this gift or promise of the Spirit at repentance, and that most receive this gift after water baptism, would not this mean that everyone is not born again when they repent?

I may have confused you with my post, so let me ask this, when does one receive the gift or promise of the Spirit?

Bump for Danny Boy

[Truly Blessed]

3 steppers don't miss as much as you would liketo imply. The real question becomes whether faith and repentance can be separated. Does one believe and then repent? Does one repent and then believe? Is one justified when they believe but have not repented?Isn't the answer obvious? Can one truly believe without a change of heart and mind that constitutes repentance? This is the dynamic I am talking about. It's so amazing to me that a sinner can hear the gospel and immediately experience such a profound transformation. It has to be the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit! It's the only explanation!

[SDG]

Isn't the answer obvious? Can one truly believe without a change of heart and mind that constitutes repentance? This is the dynamic I am talking about. It's so amazing to me that a sinner can hear the gospel and immediately experience such a profound transformation. It has to be the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit! It's the only explanation!

I'm still waiting for RR to answer when the OT saints had their sins remitted?

[SDG]

Let me throw this in here Dan, was it only the work of the cross that brought atonement? Would the Israelites have been atoned on the day of atonement,if the high priest had just killed the lamb, and did nothing else?

Wikipedia ....

The atonement is a doctrine found within both Christianity and Judaism. It describes how sin can be forgiven by God. In Judaism, Atonement is said to be the process of forgiving or pardoning a transgression. This was originally accomplished through rituals performed by a High Priest on the holiest day of the Jewish year: Yom Kippur (Day of Atonement). In Christian theology, the atonement refers to the forgiving or pardoning of sin through the crucifixion of Jesus Christ, which made possible a reconciliation between God and creation.

Question one ... UHHHHH ....Yes.

Or do you think something else brought us atonement .... or must we re-enact the work of the the Lamb to attain atonement?

Question two ... so we are the Hight Priest, now???

I hold the judicial view ... like most of the Protestant world ... Matt.

:ty

[stmatthew]

Wikipedia ....

The atonement is a doctrine found within both Christianity and Judaism. It describes how sin can be forgiven by God. In Judaism, Atonement is said to be the process of forgiving or pardoning a transgression. This was originally accomplished through rituals performed by a High Priest on the holiest day of the Jewish year: Yom Kippur (Day of Atonement). In Christian theology, the atonement refers to the forgiving or pardoning of sin through the crucifixion of Jesus Christ, which made possible a reconciliation between God and creation.

Question one ... UHHHHH ....Yes.

Or do you think something else brought us atonement .... or must we re-enact the work of the the Lamb to attain atonement?

Question two ... so we are the Hight Priest, now???

I hold the judicial view ... like most of the Protestant world ... Matt.

:ty


You missed it.

If the High Priest had not taken the shed blood into the holiest of all and sprinkled it as an offering to God, and if God had not come down and accepted the blood offering, then there would have been no atonement for Israel. This is why the Laws were so meticulously followed concerning the offering. Their lives were counting on Gods acceptance of the offering.


The same with Jesus. IF he has not risen, and took the role of our High Priest, and offered his own blood in the holiest of all in the heavenlies, there would not have been salvation as we know it.


It took not only the death of Christ upon the cross, but his burial , and his resurrection (he could not have ascended into heaven to offer the sacrifice upon the Mercy Seat otherwise). No friend, the cross is not enough to save. It takes the whole gospel to do so. Death, Burial, and Resurrection.

[stmatthew]

BTW - you do know that Wikipedia is not a reliable source for information, because anyone can place info there, whether it it true or not.

[SDG]

You missed it.

If the High Priest had not taken the shed blood into the holiest of all and sprinkled it as an offering to God, and if God had not come down and accepted the blood offering, then there would have been no atonement for Israel. This is why the Laws were so meticulously followed concerning the offering. Their lives were counting on Gods acceptance of the offering.


The same with Jesus. IF he has not risen, and took the role of our High Priest, and offered his own blood in the holiest of all in the heavenlies, there would not have been salvation as we know it.


It took not only the death of Christ upon the cross, but his burial , and his resurrection (he could not have ascended into heaven to offer the sacrifice upon the Mercy Seat otherwise). No friend, the cross is not enough to save. It takes the whole gospel to do so. Death, Burial, and Resurrection.

I would agree that it takes the "whole" gospel for us to be forgiven and to enter into new life, Matt ... that is a mischaracterization ...

but to think we have to re-enact it for it to be 'activated' is tantamount to a works-based theology ... sorry ... :ty :ty :ty :ty

[Theophilus]

You missed it.

If the High Priest had not taken the shed blood into the holiest of all and sprinkled it as an offering to God, and if God had not come down and accepted the blood offering, then there would have been no atonement for Israel. This is why the Laws were so meticulously followed concerning the offering. Their lives were counting on Gods acceptance of the offering.


The same with Jesus. IF he has not risen, and took the role of our High Priest, and offered his own blood in the holiest of all in the heavenlies, there would not have been salvation as we know it.


It took not only the death of Christ upon the cross, but his burial , and his resurrection (he could not have ascended into heaven to offer the sacrifice upon the Mercy Seat otherwise). No friend, the cross is not enough to save. It takes the whole gospel to do so. Death, Burial, and Resurrection.

Excellent post!

[Theophilus]

I would agree that it takes the "whole" gospel for us to be forgiven and to enter into new life, Matt ... that is a mischaracterization ...

but to think we have to re-enact it for it to 'activate' it is tantamount to a works-based theology ... sorry ... :ty :ty :ty :ty

Works based, or works inclusive?

[SDG]

BTW - you do know that Wikipedia is not a reliable source for information, because anyone can place info there, whether it it true or not.

OK .. Matt ... and you disagree with the description given I gather .... :killinme :killinme :killinme

[SDG]

Works based, or works inclusive?

Theo ... stay w/ your works based theology ... and call it works inclusive if it satisfies your view.

[Steve Epley]

You missed it.

If the High Priest had not taken the shed blood into the holiest of all and sprinkled it as an offering to God, and if God had not come down and accepted the blood offering, then there would have been no atonement for Israel. This is why the Laws were so meticulously followed concerning the offering. Their lives were counting on Gods acceptance of the offering.


The same with Jesus. IF he has not risen, and took the role of our High Priest, and offered his own blood in the holiest of all in the heavenlies, there would not have been salvation as we know it.


It took not only the death of Christ upon the cross, but his burial , and his resurrection (he could not have ascended into heaven to offer the sacrifice upon the Mercy Seat otherwise). No friend, the cross is not enough to save. It takes the whole gospel to do so. Death, Burial, and Resurrection.

Amen!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It took 2 goats to complete atonement one dead and one live. Died for my sins buried and raised for my justification.

[Steve Epley]

I'm still waiting for RR to answer when the OT saints had their sins remitted?

NOT RR but OT saint's sins were NOT remitted but forgiven. Thise sacrifices could NEVER take away sins. Only Calvary's blood could remit sins.

[SDG]

NOT RR but OT saint's sins were NOT remitted but forgiven. Thise sacrifices could NEVER take away sins. Only Calvary's blood could remit sins.

He's one of your disciples ... Sir Epley ... you've done well in indoctrinating him w/ the EPLEYIAN VIEW.

[stmatthew]

NOT RR but OT saint's sins were NOT remitted but forgiven. Thise sacrifices could NEVER take away sins. Only Calvary's blood could remit sins.

Elder, for the life of me, I cannot understand why he can't see that Isreal of the old testament had their sins pushed forward over and over again until the final sacrifice took place.

[SDG]

Elder, for the life of me, I cannot understand why he can't see that Isreal of the old testament had their sins pushed forward over and over again until the final sacrifice took place.

Really ... Matt .. for the life of me ... why can't someone tell my why their sins were remitted at Calvary and mine weren't .... LOL.

[stmatthew]

I would agree that it takes the "whole" gospel for us to be forgiven and to enter into new life, Matt ... that is a mischaracterization ...

but to think we have to re-enact it for it to be 'activated' is tantamount to a works-based theology ... sorry ... :ty :ty :ty :ty

Funny how you want to stop at the cross and expect to receive life when all Jesus found at the cross was death.

Oh well. Call me a re-enactmentist, because I do not believe a man can be saved without going to the cross of death at repentance, burying the old man of sin in water baptism (buried with Jesus), and resurrecting in the power of the spirit.

The gospel being espoused that states that one receives salvation at belief only is another gospel, and is a lie from the Father of lies to steal, kill, and destroy the souls of men. And he is doing just that as many follow this lie of deception.

[SDG]

Funny how you want to stop at the cross and expect to receive life when all Jesus found at the cross was death.

Oh well. Call me a re-enactmentist, because I do not believe a man can be saved without going to the cross of death at repentance, burying the old man of sin in water baptism (buried with Jesus), and resurrecting in the power of the spirit.

The gospel being espoused that states that one receives salvation at belief only is another gospel, and is a lie from the Father of lies to steal, kill, and destroy the souls of men. And he is doing just that as many follow this lie of deception.

Oh boy ....

[stmatthew]

Really ... Matt .. for the life of me ... why can't someone tell my why their sins were remitted at Calvary and mine weren't .... LOL.

Old Covenant - New Covenant

[SDG]

Old Covenant - New Covenant

New Covenant = not better?????

[stmatthew]

New Covenant = not better?????

Only to those that receive it.

[SDG]

I love you Matt ... that's why I torture you with truth.

[Steve Epley]

Really ... Matt .. for the life of me ... why can't someone tell my why their sins were remitted at Calvary and mine weren't .... LOL.

THis must be TIC YOU know we believe sins were remitted at Calvary.

[SDG]

THis must be TIC YOU know we believe sins were remitted at Calvary.

Elder look up aphesis ... call me in the morning.

[stmatthew]

Daniel.................................I'm more born again than you!! :D

[SDG]

Daniel.................................I'm more born again than you!! :D

I'm more righteous than you are ......

[Steve Epley]

Elder look up aphesis ... call me in the morning.

I have already looked it up and UNDERSTAND it. Stay around and I will explain it to you.:tease

[SDG]

I have already looked it up and UNDERSTAND it. Stay around and I will explain it to you.:tease

nah ... it's Greek to me.....

[SDG]

Are there any hard line PAJCers that believe justification is not complete until all the 3 steps are completed with remission occurring at baptism??

We haven't head from any Bernadian PAJCers ... any takers???

David Bernard, The New Birth

Since justification comes through faith, it occurs when a person fully exercises saving faith, which includes obedience to the gospel Therefore, the full work of justification comes by faith as one repents, is baptized in Jesus' name, and receives the Holy Spirit.
In I Corinthians 6:9-10 Paul listed ten categories of unrighteous people who will not inherit the kingdom of God. He continued: "And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God" (I Corinthians 6:11). In other words, justification occurred when they were baptized in Jesus' name and baptized with the Holy Spirit. Although this verse does not specifically mention the word baptism, Smith's Dictionary of the Bible explains it as referring to baptism: "It is generally believed that here is an allusion to being baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ… [T]he reference to baptism seems unquestionable." [253] A Baptist theologian asserted that, "The voice of scholarship is unanimous in affirming the association with baptism." [254]

Further examination of the purposes of repentance, water baptism, and the Spirit baptism demonstrates that the work of justification takes place in all three. At repentance, man and God begin to form a personal relationship, which lays a foundation for water and Spirit baptism. At water baptism, God remits sin (Acts 2:38), which corresponds to the first element of justification.

The Holy Spirit imparts the righteousness of Christ, for the Spirit is Christ in us: "That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit" (Romans 8:4); "But ye are not in the flesh but in the Spirit if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness" (Romans 8:9-10). The indwelling Spirit enables us to receive future salvation (Romans 8:11). Through the Spirit we qualify for God's blessings and promises (Romans 8:15-17; Galatians 3:14). In short, the baptism of the Spirit corresponds to the second element of justification.

The work of justification begins at initial repentance from sin and is completed at the time of water and Spirit baptism. Therefore, justification is instantaneous at the time of the new birth as a whole. It would be incorrect to identify justification solely with one aspect of the new birth, because the new birth must be regarded as a single whole. In one sense, however, justification is available on a continuing basis for sins committed and repented of after the new birth experience.

[TRIPLE E]

We all know that Elder Epley is right!

[TRIPLE E]

Are there any hard line PAJCers that believe justification is not complete until all the 3 steps are completed with remission occurring at baptism??

We haven't head from any Bernadian PAJCers ... any takers???

Never heard tell of a Bernadian PAJCer heard of Canadian PAJC'ers though.

[rgcraig]

We all know that Elder Epley is right!

That avatar is down right scary!

[TRIPLE E]

That avatar is down right scary!

Thanks it was just taken recently with a couple minor adjustments. You should have seen it before the adjustments.

[SDG]

Never heard tell of a Bernadian PAJCer heard of Canadian PAJC'ers though.

The 3 PAJCer views are outlined in post 1.

[Steve Epley]

The 3 PAJCer views are outlined in post 1.

The MAIN thing is we ALL agree NO one has NT salvation outside of obeying Acts 2:38.

[RevDWW]

The MAIN thing is we ALL agree NO one has NT salvation outside of obeying Acts 2:38.

Yeah, what he said!!!! :highfive

[SDG]

The MAIN thing is we ALL agree NO one has NT salvation outside of obeying Acts 2:38.

If you can't agree on when Justification takes place then I'm not sure if you on the same page at all. IMHO

[mizpeh]

Are there any hard line PAJCers that believe justification is not complete until all the 3 steps are completed with remission occurring at baptism??

We haven't head from any Bernadian PAJCers ... any takers???

In I Corinthians 6:9-10 Paul listed ten categories of unrighteous people who will not inherit the kingdom of God. He continued: "And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God" (I Corinthians 6:11).

I don't know if I'm a hard-line PAJCer but all scripture has to fit together. Are we justified by faith alone or are we justified by the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God? I don't think it is either or the other. The quote from Bernard's book left out the verses on justification by faith and I haven't read his book so I don't know his view on those verses, but it doesn't matter.

Honestly, I think a harmony of the verses on justification will bring us to the truth. IMO

[Truthseeker]

If remission of sins is at baptism, how did the gentiles in acts10 get the infilling of the Spirit before baptism???

[Fireside]

If you can't agree on when Justification takes place then I'm not sure if you on the same page at all. IMHO

Justification in and of itself is not salvation.

[stmatthew]

Justification in and of itself is not salvation.

This really is the dividing point. Some see justification equaling salvation, while others do not.

[SDG]

Justification in and of itself is not salvation.

I agree ... our salvation is not complete until each of us hear “'Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your Lord”

[SDG]

This really is the dividing point. Some see justification equaling salvation, while others do not.

For who???

[Fireside]

This really is the dividing point. Some see justification equaling salvation, while others do not.

Exactly.

This is why I zeroed in on it.

The erroneous idea that justification is tantamount to salvation is responsible for a lot of doctrinal error.

[SDG]

I agree w/ both of you ... our salvation is not complete until each of us hear “'Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your Lord”

[Truthseeker]

I agree ... our salvation is not complete until each of us hear “'Well done, good and faithful servant. You have been faithful over a little; I will set you over much. Enter into the joy of your Lord”

Are we not saved now?

[Truthseeker]

Exactly.

This is why I zeroed in on it.

The erroneous idea that justification is tantamount to salvation is responsible for a lot of doctrinal error.


Don't they kinda of go hand and hand?

[SDG]

Are we not saved now?

With out a doubt we are ... blessed assurance...

[Truthseeker]

If remission of sins is at baptism, how did the gentiles in acts10 get the infilling of the Spirit before baptism???


bump

[SDG]

Don't they kinda of go hand and hand?

If we are not first declared righteous we can't approach him ... CS.

[Fireside]

Don't they kinda of go hand and hand?

Yes, in a manner of speaking.

The intent of some, however, is to try and isolate a point somewhere before full obedience to Acts 2:38 and say that justification is already in place, so that they can say folks are saved without the rest of it.

[SDG]

You are either missing the point, or once again skating the issue.

No sir ... I think you are making a point for me ...putting words in my mouth.

[stmatthew]

If we are not first declared righteous we can't approach him ... CS.


Back to Grade School 101

Repentance = death to the old man of sin

Water baptism = burial and putting off of old man sin

Holy Ghost = resurrection to new life

[SDG]

Yes, in a manner of speaking.

The intent of some, however, is to try and isolate a point somewhere before full obedience to Acts 2:38 and say that justification is already in place, so that they can say folks are saved without the rest of it.

I think several in this thread have isolated that point of justification ... For example Elder and Matt think we are justified after we are baptized in water ... before receiving the baptism of the Holy Ghost ... Sabellius and other Seagravian PAJCers have isolated justification at repentance prior to baptisms.

[SDG]

Back to Grade School 101

Repentance = death to the old man of sin

Water baptism = burial and putting off of old man sin

Holy Ghost = resurrection to new life

Back to Renactment 101? He did those things ...

[Truthseeker]

Back to Grade School 101

Repentance = death to the old man of sin

Water baptism = burial and putting off of old man sin

Holy Ghost = resurrection to new life


So can one be filled with newness of life if they have not put off the old man in buriel???

In acts 10 they were filled before baptized.

[SDG]

So can one be filled with newness of life if they have not put off the old man in buriel???

In acts 10 they were filled before baptized.

I was filled with baptism of the HG before being water baptized .....

[stmatthew]

So can one be filled with newness of life if they have not put off the old man in buriel???

In acts 10 they were filled before baptized.

Yes, but the spirit will lead them to dispose of the old man in water baptism.

[stmatthew]

Back to Renactment 101? He did those things ...

One mans re-enactment is another mans obedience.

[SDG]

Yes, but the spirit will lead them to dispose of the old man in water baptism.

The Word commands us to be baptized Matt.

[Truthseeker]

Yes, but the spirit will lead them to dispose of the old man in water baptism.



So one can have the newness of life and still have the old man not buried.
interesting

[SDG]

One mans re-enactment is another mans obedience.

If we love Him we will obey all of His commandments ....does a living tree ever stop growing???

[stmatthew]

If we love Him we will obey all of His commandments ....does a living tree ever stop growing???

So you believe in re-enacting too??

[SDG]

So you believe in re-enacting too??

No .. you do.

[stmatthew]

No .. you do.

But you just said you believe in "obey all of His commandments". IF you believe this, then you believe in re-enacting what Jesus did (i.e death, burial, resurrection)

[J-Roc]

No, he is simply rehearsing...

[Truthseeker]

Matt

do you agree remission of sins ia at baptism?

[stmatthew]

Matt

do you agree remission of sins ia at baptism?

Yes, I do.

[Truthseeker]

Yes, I do.


So how did those folks get the Spirit with no remssions of sin yet?

[J-Roc]

But you just said you believe in "obey all of His commandments". IF you believe this, then you believe in re-enacting what Jesus did (i.e death, burial, resurrection)


We do not reenact Jesus’ death, burial or resurrection. We, on an individual level, simply trust in, confess and rehearse it. We rehearse it in water baptism. We rehearse it in the Lord’s Supper. We rehearse it in the preaching of the Gospel every week. We rehearse it in worship by exalting the work of Christ rather than focusing on our own actions or experiences. We rehearse it in living lives dead to sin, but alive to God through Jesus Christ. In repentance we turn from what we could not do, to accept and claim what God has done for us. Water baptism is not an application of the death of Jesus but a recital that shows forth the death, burial and resurrection of our Lord. It was done for us two thousand years ago. We cannot distort or pervert holy baptism by making it a way to qualify people for salvation. Water baptism is the telling of the Gospel of Jesus in visual, tangible language, not the means of obtaining salvation. Our salvation was obtained by Jesus on that Cross long ago.

The means of salvation is humble faith IN Christ, not obedience TO baptism. We do not baptize out of fear of falling short of salvation. We baptize, not to recreate or reenact Christ’s work, but to symbolically show what He has done. Christians go wrong when they turn from reciting the Gospel to reenacting the Gospel through baptism. This is where “salvation is not said to be by God’s act outside us in Christ, but by its reenactment in us.” We are commanded to baptize because, it shows that we fell far short by our sin, but Jesus saves us to the uttermost through his freely taking away our sins on the Cross. He ever lives to make intercession for us!

Receiving the Holy Spirit is not something that we do to get saved. It is a gift, given to those who trust in the finished work of Christ alone. Instead of laboring in prayer at an altar for days and weeks trying to “get the Holy Ghost” so that one can know they are saved, the Bible teaches that we are given the Holy Spirit when we trust in Christ. We “get” the Spirit when we “get” Christ (Ephesians 1:13). How could it be otherwise? It is impossible to have Christ and still be missing something essential to our salvation. The “fulness” is in Christ. :highfive

[stmatthew]

So how did those folks get the Spirit with no remssions of sin yet?

I do not claim to be a theological giant, or even a good theological student for that matter.But I will try to answer to the best of my abilities.

I believe when a person repents, they die to the old man. I believe they are forgiven, but the sins have not been "put off" as of yet. I come very close to seeing justification at repentance. But I am not sure I can balance it when remission according to scripture does not occur until water baptism.

Anyway, the old sinful man is dead, though still being carried by the believer (Pauls "body of Death"). Since the sinful man is dead, by faith, the believe can receive the Holy Ghost prior to burying the old man. This does not negate the fact that the old man still must be put off.

[SDG]

But you just said you believe in "obey all of His commandments". IF you believe this, then you believe in re-enacting what Jesus did (i.e death, burial, resurrection)

No sir ... I believe in identifying with His death, burial and resurrection in many ways ....

___________________________________________

1. The Lord's Supper

Luk 22:19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake [it], and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.

Luk 22:20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup [is] the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

Now does this we are to believe in transubstantiation?? ... or that the Lord's Supper must be done for salvation????

No, of course not ... Yet we participate, because we love Him and appreciate the salvation He afforded.

__________________________________________________ ___

2. Water Baptism

Romans 6:3-5. In it is a strong comparison between our baptism and Christ's death, burial, and resurrection.

"3Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, in order that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. 5For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall be also in the likeness of His resurrection,"

In baptism we see imagery of his death, burial and resurrection ... but He did these things once and for all ... I identified with these things and made a public proclamation of faith through obedience when I was baptized ....

The same writer of Romans tells us that we are saved through faith and not by our works so that we may boast ....

He also writes in Romans 3

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Again we are baptized because we are saved through faith ... evident by obedience.

________________________________________________

3. I also identify with his death, burial and resurrection EVERYDAY

Paul says:

I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.
1 Corinthians 15:31

I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.
Galatians 2:20


Now .... Matt does this mean that Paul was water baptized everyday of his Christian life???

Paul identifies with Christ death, burial and resurrection ... as we do .. daily in KNOWING HIM more and more each day ...

In Phillipians he states:

3:7 However, what things were gain to me, these have I counted loss for Christ.

3:8 Yes most assuredly, and I count all things to be loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus, my Lord, for whom I suffered the loss of all things, and count them nothing but refuse, that I may gain Christ

3:9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own, that which is of the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith;

3:10 that I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, becoming conformed to his death;

3:11 if by any means I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.



Paul is relating his experience of the unsurpassed value of knowing Christ, not based upon his own effort but based upon the righteousness that comes through faith in Christ ....

Paul has gone down the road of trying to impress God, and has seen that it has failed and it is worthless. He is seeking to know God’s righteousness now and in the resurrection.

Again, we obey all of his commandments through our faith in the sacrifice and resurrection of Jesus Christ ...

[stmatthew]

We do not reenact Jesus’ death, burial or resurrection. We, on an individual level, simply trust in, confess and rehearse it. We rehearse it in water baptism. We rehearse it in the Lord’s Supper. We rehearse it in the preaching of the Gospel every week. We rehearse it in worship by exalting the work of Christ rather than focusing on our own actions or experiences. We rehearse it in living lives dead to sin, but alive to God through Jesus Christ. In repentance we turn from what we could not do, to accept and claim what God has done for us. Water baptism is not an application of the death of Jesus but a recital that shows forth the death, burial and resurrection of our Lord. It was done for us two thousand years ago. We cannot distort or pervert holy baptism by making it a way to qualify people for salvation. Water baptism is the telling of the Gospel of Jesus in visual, tangible language, not the means of obtaining salvation. Our salvation was obtained by Jesus on that Cross long ago.

The means of salvation is humble faith IN Christ, not obedience TO baptism. We do not baptize out of fear of falling short of salvation. We baptize, not to recreate or reenact Christ’s work, but to symbolically show what He has done. Christians go wrong when they turn from reciting the Gospel to reenacting the Gospel through baptism. This is where “salvation is not said to be by God’s act outside us in Christ, but by its reenactment in us.” We are commanded to baptize because, it shows that we fell far short by our sin, but Jesus saves us to the uttermost through his freely taking away our sins on the Cross. He ever lives to make intercession for us!

Receiving the Holy Spirit is not something that we do to get saved. It is a gift, given to those who trust in the finished work of Christ alone. Instead of laboring in prayer at an altar for days and weeks trying to “get the Holy Ghost” so that one can know they are saved, the Bible teaches that we are given the Holy Spirit when we trust in Christ. We “get” the Spirit when we “get” Christ (Ephesians 1:13). How could it be otherwise? It is impossible to have Christ and still be missing something essential to our salvation. The “fulness” is in Christ. :highfive

So are you saying that everyone receives the holy ghost when they "trust Christ"? They get it when they believe the gospel?

[stmatthew]

Good ole hit and run J-Roc. Throw a post out there, and then leave.

[SDG]

Good ole hit and run J-Roc. Throw a post out there, and then leave.

I await your comments .... Matt .. see my post on page 22. Jeff ... ain't running... trust me.

[stmatthew]

No sir ... I believe in identifying with His death, burial and resurrection in many ways ....

___________________________________________

1. The Lord's Supper

Luk 22:19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake [it], and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.

Luk 22:20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup [is] the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.

Now does this we are to believe in transubstantiation?? ... or that the Lord's Supper must be done for salvation????

No, of course not ... Yet we participate, because we love Him and appreciate the salvation He afforded.

__________________________________________________ ___

2. Water Baptism

Romans 6:3-5. In it is a strong comparison between our baptism and Christ's death, burial, and resurrection.

"3Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, in order that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. 5For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall be also in the likeness of His resurrection,"

In baptism we see imagery of his death, burial and resurrection ... but He did these things once and for all ... I identified with these things and made a public proclamation of faith through obedience when I was baptized ....

The same writer of Romans tells us that we are saved through faith and not by our works so that we may boast ....

He also writes in Romans 3

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Again we are baptized because we are saved through faith ... evident by obedience.

________________________________________________

3. I also identify with his death, burial and resurrection EVERYDAY

Paul says:

I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.
1 Corinthians 15:31

I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.
Galatians 2:20


Now .... Matt does this mean that Paul was water baptized everyday of his Christian life???

Paul identifies with Christ death, burial and resurrection ... as we do .. daily in KNOWING HIM more and more each day ...

In Phillipians he states:

3:7 However, what things were gain to me, these have I counted loss for Christ.

3:8 Yes most assuredly, and I count all things to be loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus, my Lord, for whom I suffered the loss of all things, and count them nothing but refuse, that I may gain Christ

3:9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own, that which is of the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith;

3:10 that I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, becoming conformed to his death;

3:11 if by any means I may attain to the resurrection from the dead.



Paul is relating his experience of the unsurpassed value of knowing Christ, not based upon his own effort but based upon the righteousness that comes through faith in Christ ....

Paul has gone down the road of trying to impress God, and has seen that it has failed and it is worthless. He is seeking to know God’s righteousness now and in the resurrection.

Again, we obey all of his commandments through our faith in the sacrifice and resurrection of Jesus Christ ...

Paul taught very plainly that baptism was our burial WITH CHRIST.

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

But, I grow weary of our drawn out back and forths. It is obvious you will continue to believe what you believe, and I will continue to believe what I believe.

[SDG]

Paul taught very plainly that baptism was our burial WITH CHRIST.

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

But, I grow weary of our drawn out back and forths. It is obvious you will continue to believe what you believe, and I will continue to believe what I believe.

If we are to take him literally Matt in this verse ... then we are to die literally also ...

and the last half of verse 4 says ...that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. does baptism also bring a literal resurrection??? ... which YOU only attribute to Spirit baptism ... it's imagery ...Matt ... for what he literally did ... we simply place our faith in the work of the Lamb .....

There are some inherent contradictions in your theology that you may want to examine.

[stmatthew]

If we are to take him literally Matt in this verse ... then we are to die literally also ...

and the last half of verse 4 says ...that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. does baptism also bring a literal resurrection??? ... which YOU only attribute to Spirit baptism ... it's imagery ...Matt ... for what he literally did ... we simply place our faith in the work of the Lamb .....

There are some inherent contradictions in your theology that you may want to examine.

There are no contradictions Bro. You just see it from your perspective, and I see it from mine.

[J-Roc]

Good ole hit and run J-Roc. Throw a post out there, and then leave.

Sorry Bro. Matt for not responding right away...I am at work tonight and so it is hard for me to engage at the same pace...this forum is very very very active and I find it hard to keep up with so many missles flying from all directions. So please understand if I don't respond soon enough, it is not with the intention of hiding...and I'll do my best to get back as soon as I can.

Having said that, in response to your question, I believe the new birth takes place at the moment of genuine faith (which is why I also believe ministers should be diligent about explaining all the intricacies pertaining to the gospel-good news- message and that the Book of Romans is an excellent launching pad for one to explain this expediently). If the intricacies are dealt with, the hearer of the Word won't go away with a notion of "easy believism".

So when we explain this wonderful gospel message those who believe and accept this message as true will be convicted in their heart and will fully trust that Jesus is sufficient, that his righteousness is imputed to us, that his blood washes away our sin, that we in our own righteousness always miserably fall short, that not one of us is righteous enough to deserve pardon, but that His perfect and unblemished life and precious blood on the cross is what we can turn to. Our greatest act of obedience, I think, is believing and trusting Jesus and what he did for us is sufficient...and everything good and appropriate thing we do afterwards we do in obedience and to bring glory to God.

And that my friends, is real GOOD NEWS for us!

[stmatthew]

Sorry Bro. Matt for not responding right away...I am at work tonight and so it is hard for me to engage at the same pace...this forum is very very very active and I find it hard to keep up with so many missles flying from all directions. So please understand if I don't respond soon enough, it is not with the intention of hiding...and I'll do my best to get back as soon as I can.

Having said that, in response to your question, I believe the new birth takes place at the moment of genuine faith (which is why I also believe ministers should be diligent about explaining all the intricacies pertaining to the gospel-good news- message and that the Book of Romans is an excellent launching pad for one to explain this expediently). If the intricacies are dealt with, the hearer of the Word won't go away with a notion of "easy believism".

So when we explain this wonderful gospel message those who believe and accept this message as true will be convicted in their heart and will fully trust that Jesus is sufficient, that his righteousness is imputed to us, that his blood washes away our sin, that we in our own righteousness always miserably fall short, that not one of us is righteous enough to deserve pardon, but that His perfect and unblemished life and precious blood on the cross is what we can turn to. Our greatest act of obedience, I think, is believing and trusting Jesus and what he did for us is sufficient...and everything good and appropriate thing we do afterwards we do in obedience and to bring glory to God.

And that my friends, is real GOOD NEWS for us!

I should have added a smilie, as I was not being serious.

[Sam]

Are we not saved now?

We have been saved from the penalty of sin.
We are being saved from the power of sin.
We shall be saved from the presence of sin.

[crakjak]

Sorry Bro. Matt for not responding right away...I am at work tonight and so it is hard for me to engage at the same pace...this forum is very very very active and I find it hard to keep up with so many missles flying from all directions. So please understand if I don't respond soon enough, it is not with the intention of hiding...and I'll do my best to get back as soon as I can.

Having said that, in response to your question, I believe the new birth takes place at the moment of genuine faith (which is why I also believe ministers should be diligent about explaining all the intricacies pertaining to the gospel-good news- message and that the Book of Romans is an excellent launching pad for one to explain this expediently). If the intricacies are dealt with, the hearer of the Word won't go away with a notion of "easy believism".

So when we explain this wonderful gospel message those who believe and accept this message as true will be convicted in their heart and will fully trust that Jesus is sufficient, that his righteousness is imputed to us, that his blood washes away our sin, that we in our own righteousness always miserably fall short, that not one of us is righteous enough to deserve pardon, but that His perfect and unblemished life and precious blood on the cross is what we can turn to. Our greatest act of obedience, I think, is believing and trusting Jesus and what he did for us is sufficient...and everything good and appropriate thing we do afterwards we do in obedience and to bring glory to God.

And that my friends, is real GOOD NEWS for us!

This is a great post, I agree completely. Thanks J-Roc!!!

[Steve Epley]

NO one will be saved in this dispensation outside of Acts 2:38.

[commonsense]

I was filled with baptism of the HG before being water baptized .....

I was filled with the Holy Ghost July 22, 1960. I was baptized in Jesus Name July 23, 1960.
My mother received the Holy Ghost about a year before she was baptized.
My husband also received the Holy Ghost before he was baptized.

Several years ago I heard a minister question the HG baptism B 4 water baptism; not sure what he did with Acts 10. No one can take away your experience, no matter how others may see it.

[Steve Epley]

I was filled with the Holy Ghost July 22, 1960. I was baptized in Jesus Name July 23, 1960.
My mother received the Holy Ghost about a year before she was baptized.
My husband also received the Holy Ghost before he was baptized.

Several years ago I heard a minister question the HG baptism B 4 water baptism; not sure what he did with Acts 10. No one can take away your experience, no matter how others may see it.

I was filled with the HG a month before I was baptized but I have not tired to rewrite the Bible. Thank God you were filled but you also was baptized in Jesus Name so you got both water & the Spirit!:bliss :bliss

[SDG]

I was filled with the HG a month before I was baptized but I have not tired to rewrite the Bible. Thank God you were filled but you also was baptized in Jesus Name so you got both water & the Spirit!:bliss :bliss

Resurrection before burial ...????? Can't have it both ways.

[Steve Epley]

Resurrection before burial ...????? Can't have it both ways.

Dan we have 2 NT examples where they recieved the HGB before baptism thus we are yet in the book. Argue with the historian that wrote Acts and God who filled them. However the PROOF they really got it they were baptized. And that in Jesus Name.

[SDG]

Dan we have 2 NT examples where they recieved the HGB before baptism thus we are yet in the book. Argue with the historian that wrote Acts and God who filled them. However the PROOF they really got it they were baptized. And that in Jesus Name.

Not arguing the sequence ... Bishop .. sorry ... I know what the Bible says ... can't squirm out of this one ... sorry ...you're the one hung up on the death, burial and resurrection sequence ...

[Steve Epley]

Not arguing the sequence ... Bishop .. sorry ... I know what the Bible says ... can't squirm out of this one ... sorry ...you're the one hung up on the death, burial and resurrection sequence ...

We believe in death-burial-resurrection, also blood-water-Spirit however the Book of Acts gives the pattern not I and He God himself did this. And as Peter said who am I to argue with God?

[SDG]

We believe in death-burial-resurrection, also blood-water-Spirit however the Book of Acts gives the pattern not I and He God himself did this. And as Peter said who am I to argue with God?

You've just admitted that there is no set pattern ??? I'm confused ....

[Steve Epley]

You've just admitted that there is no set pattern ??? I'm confused ....

You have read the record and you are not serious you know exactly what we believe so quit playing.

[freeatlast]

Sorry Bro. Matt for not responding right away...I am at work tonight and so it is hard for me to engage at the same pace...this forum is very very very active and I find it hard to keep up with so many missles flying from all directions. So please understand if I don't respond soon enough, it is not with the intention of hiding...and I'll do my best to get back as soon as I can.

Having said that, in response to your question, I believe the new birth takes place at the moment of genuine faith (which is why I also believe ministers should be diligent about explaining all the intricacies pertaining to the gospel-good news- message and that the Book of Romans is an excellent launching pad for one to explain this expediently). If the intricacies are dealt with, the hearer of the Word won't go away with a notion of "easy believism".

So when we explain this wonderful gospel message those who believe and accept this message as true will be convicted in their heart and will fully trust that Jesus is sufficient, that his righteousness is imputed to us, that his blood washes away our sin, that we in our own righteousness always miserably fall short, that not one of us is righteous enough to deserve pardon, but that His perfect and unblemished life and precious blood on the cross is what we can turn to. Our greatest act of obedience, I think, is believing and trusting Jesus and what he did for us is sufficient...and everything good and appropriate thing we do afterwards we do in obedience and to bring glory to God.

And that my friends, is real GOOD NEWS for us!

Ohhhh the beauty of the simplicity of the gospel. I weep for the times that we have sent people away from a night of prayer in the altar, saying, you almost got it.

Good post..and good doctrine J-Roc

[ManOfWord]

Justification takes place the moment a person sincerely and seriously gives their life to Jesus Christ. I believe they are as saved as they can be at this point. This person should move right to water baptism right away. No need to wait. If they don't want baptized, I don't think they have been justified. The baptism of the HG is for EVERYONE!

[Steve Epley]

Justification takes place the moment a person sincerely and seriously gives their life to Jesus Christ. I believe they are as saved as they can be at this point. This person should move right to water baptism right away. No need to wait. If they don't want baptized, I don't think they have been justified. The baptism of the HG is for EVERYONE!

Nope Justification occurs when remission of sins are procured by baptism in Jesus Name after one has genuinely repented.

[SDG]

Nope Justification occurs when remission of sins are procured by baptism in Jesus Name after one has genuinely repented.

Remission and forgiveness are synonyms Elder, in the NT. There's no way you can get around that Elder.

[freeatlast]

Nope Justification occurs when remission of sins are procured by baptism in Jesus Name after one has genuinely repented.

Could we see your scriptural references to justification being procured only at Baptism?

I gotta run off to work for a bit. I'll be back , so take your time.

[tbpew]

Justification takes place the moment a person sincerely and seriously gives their life to Jesus Christ. I believe they are as saved as they can be at this point. This person should move right to water baptism right away. No need to wait. If they don't want baptized, I don't think they have been justified. The baptism of the HG is for EVERYONE!
MOW,
can you consider how your position on this alters the purposes of water baptism and sends them into the category of "an outward sign of inward change".

MOW,
as I read you posted view, I am hearing, "water baptism has no role in our justification" except to indicate that justification has already happened.


Why would God invite us to participate in things that are only for demonstration purposes AND the audience is man-to-man?

The witness of the deliverance at the Red Sea was a vivid type and shadow of "a separation process at work". Separation from the bondage of sin is fully pre-requiste for receiving the righteousness of our savior's substitutionary atonement.

In my understanding of the scriptural witness, there is no mistaking Israel passing through the sea and our deliverance through the waters of baptism.

[SDG]

Let us examine this term REMISSION OF SINS

re-mish'-un (aphesis, paresis): The first term is the most commonly used and is translated synonymously with forgiveness throughout the NT. The two Greek words, of which the latter occurs only in Rom 3:25 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Rom+3%3A25), were translated by the same English word in the King James Version. In the Revised Version (British and American), paresis is translation "passing over."

It is contrasted with the other term as pretermission with remission. Remission is exemption from the consequences of an offense, forgiveness; pretermission is the suspension of the penalty (Philippi, Ellicott, Trench (Synonyms, XXXIII), Weiss; compare Acts 17:30 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Acts+17%3A30)).

Cremer (Lexicon of N T Gr) regards the meaning of the two words as identical, except that the one refers to the Old Testament and the other to the New Testament. Sins are remitted when the offender is treated as though the offense had never been committed. Remission is restricted to the penalty, while forgiveness refers more particularly to the person, although it may be used also of the sin itself. Remission also is used of offenses against God's law; forgiveness, against either divine or human law.
See ABSOLUTION; FORGIVENESS.
H. E. Jacobs

______________________________________

Why are some trying to continue to insist that the New Covenant demands two separate actions ... with forgiveness coming first and remission occurring subsequently ...

The only reason PAJCers will not let go of this theory is because it would take out a brick in their brick-wall theology ...

repentance would no longer be just for forgiveness sins and baptism would no longer be necessary for remission.

However ... the following has not been addressed by those sticking to their PAJC guns:

There is no argument that forgiveness and remission were distinct conceptually under the old covenant ... no argument from me ... or TB for that matter ....

but even my brother Epley has admitted that in the New Covenant they are interwoven .... and that both terms are synonymous in the NT.

The Bible itself is its own best commentary. Hebrews 9:15 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Hebrews+9%3A15) reaffirms the truth that the death of Christ was the legal basis for God having forgiven the sins of the Old Testament saints - "And for this cause he (Jesus Christ) is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance."

God very definitely FORGAVE sins many times in the Old Testament, and He certainly PUNISHED His people for their sins; but the legal basis for His having forgiven,,or remitted the sins of His people in the Old Testament times was the future and predicted death of Christ on the cross of Calvary; He is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Revelation+13%3A8)). The death of Christ satisfies the legal requirements of His having remitted and forgiven the sins of the O.T. saints. The blood of Christ declares the righteousness of God in forgiving sins, both in Old Testament times and now in the New.

So why then does the New Covenant ... as taught in the NT .. used aphesis most commonly, including in Acts 2:38 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Acts+2%3A38), to describe forgiveness/remission???

because .... aphesis/forgiveness/remission is found in the Lamb of God ... the work of Jesus Christ on the cross ... along with our propitiation ... expiation ... atonement... redemption... reconciliation ... and justification. ... [you name it ... He did it]

Gentleman, this attempt to separate forgiveness and remission in the new covenant is to fit it into a faulty theology.

Hebrews holds many keys to understanding the work of Lamb of God who has become our High priest. Read it and realize what He did.
__________________________________________________ _________

Hebrews 9 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Hebrews+9)

The Blood of Christ
11When Christ came as high priest of the good things that are already here, he went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not man-made, that is to say, not a part of this creation. 12He did not enter by means of the blood of goats and calves; but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption. 13The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a heifer sprinkled on those who are ceremonially unclean sanctify them so that they are outwardly clean. 1[B]4How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death,[c] so that we may serve the living God!

15For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.

16In the case of a will,[d] it is necessary to prove the death of the one who made it, 17because a will is in force only when somebody has died; it never takes effect while the one who made it is living. 18This is why even the first covenant was not put into effect without blood. 19When Moses had proclaimed every commandment of the law to all the people, he took the blood of calves, together with water, scarlet wool and branches of hyssop, and sprinkled the scroll and all the people. 20He said, "This is the blood of the covenant, which God has commanded you to keep."[e] 21In the same way, he sprinkled with the blood both the tabernacle and everything used in its ceremonies. 22In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

23It was necessary, then, for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these sacrifices, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24For Christ did not enter a man-made sanctuary that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself, now to appear for us in God's presence. 25Nor did he enter heaven to offer himself again and again, the way the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood that is not his own. 26Then Christ would have had to suffer many times since the creation of the world. But now he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of himself. 27Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment, 28so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

[mizpeh]

Daniel,

Is justification the same as remission?

Why is remission linked with water baptism?

[SDG]

Daniel,

Is justification the same as remission?

Why is remission linked with water baptism?

Justification and forgiveness/remission conceptually are different .... Yet if we believe God has forgiven/remitted our sins with true repentance ... would he not also have justified us, or "declared us righteous" also, simultaneously.

Remission [aphesis]is used synonymously in the NT with forgiveness [aphesis] ... except for one example in the book of Romans ... The English KJV usage of both words has thrown many off ... from it's original intent and distorting sound doctrine.

... which is to say that other translations use forgiveness and remission using the same word ... i.e. Spanish Reina Valera ... simply uses one word "perdon" for both ... making no semantical distinction.

[Ferd]

Is there no difference between Peters call to the sinners to repent (aphesis) and be baptized; and Gods act of remission (aphesis)?

[SDG]

Is there no difference between Peters call to the sinners to repent (aphesis) and be baptized; and Gods act of remission (aphesis)?

repentance, or repent is not translated as aphesis, Ferd.