View Full Version : Are we Modalist or Unitarian?
Praxeas
02-28-2007, 01:34 AM
Modalists believe there is a definite distinction between Father, Son and Holy Ghost, but not a personal distinction. There is One unipersonal God who is all three, Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
Trinitarians believe there are three Persons...God is a Tripersonal being. Father, Son and Holy Ghost are three distinct persons. One being and three persons, where as Modalism is One being, One person, three modes. Thus in Modalism God is the Son.
Unitarianism on the other hand God is unipersonal. One being and one person but He is ONLY the Father and the Spirit is just his essence and the Son is just a human person...someone OTHER than the Father. So they have two persons in view. One is God and one is the Son.
I say Oneness are Modalist in nature, though Modalism may not be the best term it fits closest to what OPs have historically held in opposition to the Trinity.
Lately though there have arisen those that have a sort of Unitarian viewpoint, claiming only the Father is God and the Son is infact someone (person) other than God. Two persons...a God person and a human person. Though they deny they are Unitarians because they say Jesus is God, they still have a Unitarian model where there are two persons. A divine person and a human person who are separate.
BTW I still don't see how one can say Father and Son are two separate persons and yet say Jesus is God
Digging4Truth
02-28-2007, 08:14 AM
Here are some scriptures to consider in discussing this question. These scriptures appear to demonstrate that the apostles saw a difference between the father and the son. Many times things are said such as.... from/to God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Any thoughts?
Jhn 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rom 1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called [to be] saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rom 15:6 That ye may with one mind [and] one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1Cr 1:3 Grace [be] unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and [from] the Lord Jesus Christ.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1Cr 8:6 But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2Cr 1:2 Grace [be] to you and peace from God our Father, and [from] the Lord Jesus Christ.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2Cr 1:3 Blessed [be] God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2Cr 11:31 The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gal 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gal 1:3 Grace [be] to you and peace from God the Father, and [from] our Lord Jesus Christ,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eph 1:2 Grace [be] to you, and peace, from God our Father, and [from] the Lord Jesus Christ.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eph 1:3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eph 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eph 3:14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eph 5:20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eph 6:23 Peace [be] to the brethren, and love with faith, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Phl 1:2 Grace [be] unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and [from] the Lord Jesus Christ.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Phl 2:11 And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Col 1:2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace [be] unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Col 1:3 We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Col 3:17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, [do] all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1Th 1:1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians [which is] in God the Father and [in] the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace [be] unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1Th 1:3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1Th 3:11 Now God himself and our Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, direct our way unto you.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1Th 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2Th 1:1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2Th 1:2 Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2Th 2:16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given [us] everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1Ti 1:2 Unto Timothy, [my] own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, [and] peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2Ti 1:2 To Timothy, [my] dearly beloved son: Grace, mercy, [and] peace, from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tts 1:4 To Titus, [mine] own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, [and] peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Phm 1:3 Grace to you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1Pe 1:3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1Jo 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship [is] with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1Jo 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1Jo 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2Jo 1:3 Grace be with you, mercy, [and] peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jud 1:1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, [and] called:
Scott Hutchinson
02-28-2007, 08:46 AM
There is a dictinction in the manifestations of God,but not a plurality of Divine beings.The God of the OT is The Jesus Christ of the NT.But God is plural in attributes but not in essence or being,God is indivisible in being.
I can't believe in eternal sonship like the Trintarians do see GAL.4:4
But the manifestations of God serve differing functions.
I believe in The Father in creation.
I believe in The Son in redemption.
I believe in The Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost in emanitation or regeneration.
I believe all of the fullness of divinity is in Jesus Christ.
I believe in One God who has revealed Himself,as Father,Son,Holy Ghost.
crakjak
02-28-2007, 09:38 AM
Here are some scriptures to consider in discussing this question. These scriptures appear to demonstrate that the apostles saw a difference between the father and the son. Many times things are said such as.... from/to God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Any thoughts?
You might want to consider also 1 Cor. 8.6, "yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are are all things, and through whom we live."
There is certainly distinction, and is understandable that there is varying opinions and views. I don't think to completely define God in human terms will ever fully work, about the time we think we have Him in a box He pops out. He is uncontainable!!
JN Anderson
02-28-2007, 09:42 AM
I'm not a modalist nor do I plan to be. I am also Oneness.
Digging4Truth
02-28-2007, 09:44 AM
You might want to consider also 1 Cor. 8.6, "yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are are all things, and through whom we live."
There is certainly distinction, and is understandable that there is varying opinions and views. I don't think to completely define God is human terms will ever fully work, about the time we think we have Him in a box He pops out. He is uncontainable!!
I have that scripture up there... what translation have you quoted above?
I agree too... that there definitely appears to have been a distinction in the minds of the apostles.
crakjak
02-28-2007, 10:17 AM
I have that scripture up there... what translation have you quoted above?
I agree too... that there definitely appears to have been a distinction in the minds of the apostles.
So you do, I overlooked it the first time. New King James Version:highfive
Digging4Truth
02-28-2007, 10:20 AM
So you do, I overlooked it the first time. New King James Version:highfive
Thanks...
I could have found out myself on http://www.blueletterbible.org but I found myself a tad lazy. :)
crakjak
02-28-2007, 10:22 AM
There is a distinction in the manifestations of God,but not a plurality of Divine beings.The God of the OT is The Jesus Christ of the NT.But God is plural in attributes but not in essence or being,God is indivisible in being.
I can't believe in eternal sonship like the Trinitarians do see GAL.4:4
But the manifestations of God serve differing functions.
I believe in The Father in creation.
I believe in The Son in redemption.
I believe in The Holy Spirit or Holy Ghost in emanation or regeneration.
I believe all of the fullness of divinity is in Jesus Christ.
I believe in One God who has revealed Himself,as Father,Son,Holy Ghost.
Heard it said that Jesus is the light bulb, the Father is the light. Same light distinct presentation. I guess we will never stop trying to define the infinite God, he is still more when we have said all we can say.
Praxeas
02-28-2007, 01:35 PM
Here are some scriptures to consider in discussing this question. These scriptures appear to demonstrate that the apostles saw a difference between the father and the son. Many times things are said such as.... from/to God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Any thoughts?
Yes....BUT, are we modalists or Unitarians? Both Modalists and Unitarians saw a diffference between Father and Son, so this post does not really get to the heart of the matter :ty
Praxeas
02-28-2007, 01:36 PM
I'm not a modalist nor do I plan to be. I am also Oneness.
I would say of the two, Traditional Oneness is more modalist than Unitarian. And by that I mean they see a distinction between Father and Son but not a personal distinction and that Father and Son are in fact the same Hypostasis in different forms or modes of being
Praxeas
02-28-2007, 01:42 PM
Are Father and Son two different persons, one is God and the other is just human
Or Are Father and Son two different forms or modes of being of the same Personal Deity...they are distinct but not as persons. They are the same in Person and Divine nature, but distinct in form and being according to the human nature of the Son?
Or, if you are a Trinitarian, you have one Divine Being that exists in three different persons, Father, Son and Holy Ghost
Yes....BUT, are we modalists or Unitarians? Both Modalists and Unitarians saw a diffference between Father and Son, so this post does not really get to the heart of the matter :tyIsn't the real difference between modalism and unitarianism nothing more than belief regarding the divinity of Christ? Of course, there are modern Trinitarians (John Ankerberg in his book on cults, for example) that confuse modalism, oneness and unitarianism - labeling all of them "unitarian."
sola gratia
02-28-2007, 03:55 PM
modalism is the most common form of oneness pentecostals - typically this view is not synonymous with acknowledging distinctions in the "Godhead" But equates the various titles Father, Son, Holy Ghost as modes of operation - scarcly even accepting words like "manifestation" particularly in any type of "coequal" - co -eternal" wording ala TD Jakes
sola gratia
02-28-2007, 03:56 PM
I also agree that modalism and unitarianism are not the same
Praxeas
02-28-2007, 08:35 PM
Isn't the real difference between modalism and unitarianism nothing more than belief regarding the divinity of Christ? Of course, there are modern Trinitarians (John Ankerberg in his book on cults, for example) that confuse modalism, oneness and unitarianism - labeling all of them "unitarian."
That the Son is not God and that the Son is infact someone other than God...not just another mode nor just another nature
That the Son is not God and that the Son is infact someone other than God...not just another mode nor just another natureYes, the unitarians claim that Jesus is not divine.
Michael The Disciple
03-01-2007, 11:59 AM
You might want to consider also 1 Cor. 8.6, "yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are are all things, and through whom we live."
There is certainly distinction, and is understandable that there is varying opinions and views. I don't think to completely define God in human terms will ever fully work, about the time we think we have Him in a box He pops out. He is uncontainable!!
For the Church there is ONLY one God, even the Father.
For the Church there is ONLY one Lord, even Jesus.
If we can hold to that the truth of Oneness can come forth.
Apostle Thomas:
28: And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. John 20:28
If Jesus was Thomas's Lord he was also his God. Jesus was BOTH to Thomas.
And if he was God to Thomas he was God the Father. He shared a common Apostolic faith in Messiah.
Paul said to US there is One God even the Father. So if Jesus is God he is God the Father.
The answer to 1 Cor. 8:6 is that rather than separating the One God and the One Lord Paul is simply identifying the one who is both.
The Greek word KAI means EVEN as much as it means and.
When read in this manner the thought of 2 god beings vanishes.
"yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; EVEN one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are are all things, and through whom we live."
That goes right along with Hear O Israel The Lord our God is ONE.
Praxeas
03-01-2007, 01:26 PM
Yes, the unitarians claim that Jesus is not divine.
But they would also make two individuals out of the Son and the Father...two persons as it were
But they would also make two individuals out of the Son and the Father...two persons as it were
More so than Trinitarians even.
crakjak
03-01-2007, 06:29 PM
For the Church there is ONLY one God, even the Father.
For the Church there is ONLY one Lord, even Jesus.
If we can hold to that the truth of Oneness can come forth.
Apostle Thomas:
28: And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. John 20:28
If Jesus was Thomas's Lord he was also his God. Jesus was BOTH to Thomas.
And if he was God to Thomas he was God the Father. He shared a common Apostolic faith in Messiah.
Paul said to US there is One God even the Father. So if Jesus is God he is God the Father.
The answer to 1 Cor. 8:6 is that rather than separating the One God and the One Lord Paul is simply identifying the one who is both.
The Greek word KAI means EVEN as much as it means and.
When read in this manner the thought of 2 god beings vanishes.
"yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; EVEN one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are are all things, and through whom we live."
That goes right along with Hear O Israel The Lord our God is ONE.
I know you can shade it all to what you want it to say because it fits the separatation that the op position affirms.
I believe in one God, but I am not afraid of the fact that God is not a man, nor can He be contained with human definition.
Further I don't believe that God rejects the majority of confessing Christians today and thoughout history because they see and define the Godhead in a little different manner.
This is not God's purpose, he sent His Son into the world to seek and to save, not to hide the truth behind some difficult understanding of ALL that He is man has always divided and separated, Jesus calls sinners to faith and repentance and a changed life. JMHO
Praxeas
03-01-2007, 11:09 PM
More so than Trinitarians even.
Right, separate individuals, not sharing the same essence of being
Michael The Disciple
03-01-2007, 11:43 PM
I know you can shade it all to what you want it to say because it fits the separatation that the op position affirms.
I believe in one God, but I am not afraid of the fact that God is not a man, nor can He be contained with human definition.
Further I don't believe that God rejects the majority of confessing Christians today and thoughout history because they see and define the Godhead in a little different manner.
This is not God's purpose, he sent His Son into the world to seek and to save, not to hide the truth behind some difficult understanding of ALL that He is man has always divided and separated, Jesus calls sinners to faith and repentance and a changed life. JMHO
Shade it? You explain it then. If there is only one God and he is the Father and Jesus is God why does that not make him the Father?
And if the same one who is Thomas Lord (Jesus) is his God how could Jesus NOT be both?
You teach me.
mizpeh
03-02-2007, 07:44 AM
I'm modalist in the sense that God can manifest Himself as Father, Son, Holy Spirit at the same time.
Digging4Truth
03-02-2007, 07:57 AM
I have posted the scriptures below in this thread once before. Just one simple question about them.
Per these scriptures below.... in your opinion... does it seem that the apostles drew a very real distinction between the father and the son?
Read through them all. Very often they will say "God the Father AND the Lord Jesus Christ"
The also would give thanks (& probably pray) TO the father IN THE NAME of Jesus Christ. We are instructed in the word to pray TO the father and to do all we do in word or deed IN THE NAME of Jesus Christ.
Do you feel, from these scriptures, that the apostles drew a distinction between the father (even referred to as God) and the son (referred to as Lord)
Jhn 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rom 1:7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called [to be] saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rom 15:6 That ye may with one mind [and] one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1Cr 1:3 Grace [be] unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and [from] the Lord Jesus Christ.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1Cr 8:6 But to us [there is but] one God, the Father, of whom [are] all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom [are] all things, and we by him.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2Cr 1:2 Grace [be] to you and peace from God our Father, and [from] the Lord Jesus Christ.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2Cr 1:3 Blessed [be] God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2Cr 11:31 The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which is blessed for evermore, knoweth that I lie not.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gal 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Gal 1:3 Grace [be] to you and peace from God the Father, and [from] our Lord Jesus Christ,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eph 1:2 Grace [be] to you, and peace, from God our Father, and [from] the Lord Jesus Christ.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eph 1:3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly [places] in Christ:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eph 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eph 3:14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eph 5:20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eph 6:23 Peace [be] to the brethren, and love with faith, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Phl 1:2 Grace [be] unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and [from] the Lord Jesus Christ.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Phl 2:11 And [that] every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ [is] Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Col 1:2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace [be] unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Col 1:3 We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Col 3:17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, [do] all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1Th 1:1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians [which is] in God the Father and [in] the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace [be] unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1Th 1:3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1Th 3:11 Now God himself and our Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, direct our way unto you.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1Th 3:13 To the end he may stablish your hearts unblameable in holiness before God, even our Father, at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all his saints.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2Th 1:1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2Th 1:2 Grace unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2Th 2:16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given [us] everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1Ti 1:2 Unto Timothy, [my] own son in the faith: Grace, mercy, [and] peace, from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2Ti 1:2 To Timothy, [my] dearly beloved son: Grace, mercy, [and] peace, from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tts 1:4 To Titus, [mine] own son after the common faith: Grace, mercy, [and] peace, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Phm 1:3 Grace to you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1Pe 1:3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1Jo 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship [is] with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1Jo 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1Jo 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2Jo 1:3 Grace be with you, mercy, [and] peace, from God the Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jud 1:1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, [and] called:
Shade it? You explain it then. If there is only one God and he is the Father and Jesus is God why does that not make him the Father?
And if the same one who is Thomas Lord (Jesus) is his God how could Jesus NOT be both?
You teach me.Because "Jesus" is the name given to God's only begotten Son. It is not the name of God. "Jesus" refers only to God's only begotten Son and not to God Himself.
Nahum
03-02-2007, 09:18 AM
We're Oneness
We're OnenessAnd your point?
Nahum
03-02-2007, 09:22 AM
We're not modalist ot unitarian - we're Oneness.
crakjak
03-02-2007, 09:32 AM
Shade it? You explain it then. If there is only one God and he is the Father and Jesus is God why does that not make him the Father?
And if the same one who is Thomas Lord (Jesus) is his God how could Jesus NOT be both?
You teach me.
I said as OP's we have been afraid of scripture and actually intellectually dishonest. Afraid to be honest about scriptural distinction between Father and Son.
I Corinthians 15.28, "Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all."
With scripture like this I accept there is distinction, and it cannot simply be explained by saying "flesh and spirit", this verse clearly declares two distinct entities interacting with each other.
You can call this manifestations or whatever you want, some simply call it persons, even though I don't like the use of persons I will not discard my Christians brothers and sisters just b/c that is the way they have been taught to define how God presents Himself to man.
To separate believers because they process information differently would be similar to you rejecting one of your children because of different temperament. Does this mean we should not teach what we believe doctrinally, of course not. But in the attaining of knowledge, we must get wisdom and that requires the whole council of God.
I said as OP's we have been afraid of scripture and actually intellectually dishonest. Afraid to be honest about scriptural distinction between Father and Son.
I Corinthians 15.28, "Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all."
With scripture like this I accept there is distinction, and it cannot simply be explained by saying "flesh and spirit", this verse clearly declares two distinct entities interacting with each other.
You can call this manifestations or whatever you want, some simply call it persons, even though I don't like the use of persons I will not discard my Christians brothers and sisters just b/c that is the way they have been taught to define how God presents Himself to man.
To separate believers because they process information differently would be similar to you rejecting one of your children because of different temperament. Does this mean we should not teach what we believe doctrinally, of course not. But in the attaining of knowledge, we must get wisdom and that requires the whole council of God.There is also the distinction between the logos (by which God spoke creation into existence, the logos that "became flesh and dwelt among us") and God
crakjak
03-02-2007, 10:26 AM
There is also the distinction between the logos (by which God spoke creation into existence, the logos that "became flesh and dwelt among us") and God
I am reading you book, so I would have gotten to that part.:killinme
I am reading you book, so I would have gotten to that part.:killinmeYou would eventually. Where are you at now in the book?
Digging4Truth
03-02-2007, 11:12 AM
You would eventually. Where are you at now in the book?
What book do you have out?
What does it cover?
What book do you have out?
What does it cover?
http://www.amazon.com/Three-Examination-Persons-Trinity-Doctrine/dp/1424143713/ref=sr_1_1/104-3136044-6215112?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1172856043&sr=8-1
Michael The Disciple
03-02-2007, 11:37 AM
I said as OP's we have been afraid of scripture and actually intellectually dishonest. Afraid to be honest about scriptural distinction between Father and Son.
I Corinthians 15.28, "Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all."
With scripture like this I accept there is distinction, and it cannot simply be explained by saying "flesh and spirit", this verse clearly declares two distinct entities interacting with each other.
You can call this manifestations or whatever you want, some simply call it persons, even though I don't like the use of persons I will not discard my Christians brothers and sisters just b/c that is the way they have been taught to define how God presents Himself to man.
To separate believers because they process information differently would be similar to you rejecting one of your children because of different temperament. Does this mean we should not teach what we believe doctrinally, of course not. But in the attaining of knowledge, we must get wisdom and that requires the whole council of God.
For myself I fully accept distinctions between the Father and Son. At the same time I accept that they are both the same. Two levels of truth are at work here. On one level the Father (deity) is greater than and distinct from the Son.
On another level scripture presents Father and Son as being the same. To teach this is not to separate from other believers. To teach it UNITES the believers together as it makes them of one mind. Only those who reject truth wind up being separated.
I accept the concept of modalism when rightly defined that Father and Son exist similtaneously as opposed to the teaching that one could not exist while the other exists.
BTW you have not attempted addressing what I said about 1 Cor. 8:6. Saying I an intellectually dishonest is a far cry from addressing what I said concerning that scripture.
Praxeas
03-02-2007, 01:05 PM
I have posted the scriptures below in this thread once before. Just one simple question about them.
Per these scriptures below.... in your opinion... does it seem that the apostles drew a very real distinction between the father and the son?
Read through them all. Very often they will say "God the Father AND the Lord Jesus Christ"
The also would give thanks (& probably pray) TO the father IN THE NAME of Jesus Christ. We are instructed in the word to pray TO the father and to do all we do in word or deed IN THE NAME of Jesus Christ.
Do you feel, from these scriptures, that the apostles drew a distinction between the father (even referred to as God) and the son (referred to as Lord)
This is the second time I mentioned this, but the topic is modalism and Unitarianism and as a side issue Trinitarianism and each of those systems recognizes a distinction between Father and Son. At issue is what are those distintions.
Oneness Pentecostals in my area has always taught a distinction between Father and Son.
Praxeas
03-02-2007, 01:07 PM
I said as OP's we have been afraid of scripture and actually intellectually dishonest. Afraid to be honest about scriptural distinction between Father and Son.
Speak for yourself please. As a OP I have always recognized a distinction between Father and Son and so do the Oneness authors I read of. I've never known any OP that was afraid to recognize that distinction. At issue has always been though WHAT is that distinction consisting of? Is it distinct persons? Or is it distinct Modes or Forms of being?
Praxeas
03-02-2007, 01:08 PM
We're not modalist ot unitarian - we're Oneness.
Mind explaining what Oneness is and how it differs from Modalism and Unitarianism?
crakjak
03-03-2007, 12:14 AM
You would eventually. Where are you at now in the book?
In The Beginning, God.
I am still in the first chapter, I like the path that you've chosen to approach the subject. Seems that many supposed Trinitarians have strayed.
May engage discussion as I get more into it. I think you are very courageous to take on the subject.
crakjak
03-03-2007, 12:23 AM
Speak for yourself please. As a OP I have always recognized a distinction between Father and Son and so do the Oneness authors I read of. I've never known any OP that was afraid to recognize that distinction. At issue has always been though WHAT is that distinction consisting of? Is it distinct persons? Or is it distinct Modes or Forms of being?
Bro, I know the distinctions allowed by OP doctrine, as in "I'm a father, son and husband. That is very little distinction. Why does scripture present the Father and Son relationship if it does not exist in reality.
crakjak
03-03-2007, 12:50 AM
For myself I fully accept distinctions between the Father and Son. At the same time I accept that they are both the same. Two levels of truth are at work here. On one level the Father (deity) is greater than and distinct from the Son.
On another level scripture presents Father and Son as being the same. To teach this is not to separate from other believers. To teach it UNITES the believers together as it makes them of one mind. Only those who reject truth wind up being separated.
I accept the concept of modalism when rightly defined that Father and Son exist similtaneously as opposed to the teaching that one could not exist while the other exists.
BTW you have not attempted addressing what I said about 1 Cor. 8:6. Saying I an intellectually dishonest is a far cry from addressing what I said concerning that scripture.
1 Cor. 8.6, shows very clearly the there is a distinction of Father (God) and Jesus (Lord) just a 1 Cor. 15.28 further establishes this fact. And you acknowledge this fact in accepting that Father and Son exist simultaneously. I do not believe in two/three persons, Jesus is the only "person" in the godhead, "the fullness of God bodily. The Father is a spirit entity.
BTW I was not directing the "intellectual dishonesty" at you, it was a rhetorical statement. I am sorry if it appeared directed at you. I do find it difficult to separate believers on the basis of this discussion. If we are honest, we should admit this is a very difficult subject because God is complex, and it is therefore unrealistic to believe one necessarily has Him fully and completely defined. Though I believe I have a good understanding, I am just as sure that I am not perfect in that understanding.
Praxeas
03-03-2007, 04:53 PM
Bro, I know the distinctions allowed by OP doctrine, as in "I'm a father, son and husband. That is very little distinction. Why does scripture present the Father and Son relationship if it does not exist in reality.
I repeat, speak for your self! The distinction in Oneness is more than a differnece in titles. Good grief.
There is a very REAL distinction...btw in case someone does not understand the word distinction it means difference. That's all. Oneness has always taught a very real DIFFERENCE between the Father and Son and it is not that the word or title Father has more letters than the word or title Son.
crakjak
03-03-2007, 07:44 PM
I repeat, speak for your self! The distinction in Oneness is more than a differnece in titles. Good grief.
There is a very REAL distinction...btw in case someone does not understand the word distinction it means difference. That's all. Oneness has always taught a very real DIFFERENCE between the Father and Son and it is not that the word or title Father has more letters than the word or title Son.
Please share the distinction, and I am speaking for myself I have not observed this distinction and I was raised in the largest UPC district in the country. I know teaching varied in different areas of the country.
Praxeas
03-03-2007, 08:41 PM
Please share the distinction, and I am speaking for myself I have not observed this distinction and I was raised in the largest UPC district in the country. I know teaching varied in different areas of the country.
The distiction is that the Father is God transcendent, as God continues to exist without the Human nature...He wills exclusively through the Divine will and nature.
The Son is God incarnate. God existing as a man, with a complete human nature/mind/psyche.
The Son wills exclusively through the Human nature and is someone other than God on a funtional/psychological level, not ontologically nor hypostatically.
They Son Does possess the Divine nature in him but willingly "empties" himself of the Divine perogatives (Kenosis)
Thus the distinction is real. It has to do with manner of being and nature, not about hypostatic persons.
Thus Father and Son actually exist. Those words are not mere titles. Father and Son are psychologically and existentially different.
Father and Son are NOT distinct as it pertains to hypostasis or the individual ego or self. But due to mode of existing and the human nature the Son is on a functional level someone other than God (I usually say "acts as though", but then someone inevitably thinks I mean acting like an actor and not acting as function0
crakjak
03-03-2007, 11:35 PM
The distiction is that the Father is God transcendent, as God continues to exist without the Human nature...He wills exclusively through the Divine will and nature.
The Son is God incarnate. God existing as a man, with a complete human nature/mind/psyche.
The Son wills exclusively through the Human nature and is someone other than God on a funtional/psychological level, not ontologically nor hypostatically.
They Son Does possess the Divine nature in him but willingly "empties" himself of the Divine perogatives (Kenosis)
Thus the distinction is real. It has to do with manner of being and nature, not about hypostatic persons.
Thus Father and Son actually exist. Those words are not mere titles. Father and Son are psychologically and existentially different.
Father and Son are NOT distinct as it pertains to hypostasis or the individual ego or self. But due to mode of existing and the human nature the Son is on a functional level someone other than God (I usually say "acts as though", but then someone inevitably thinks I mean acting like an actor and not acting as function0
So in reality there is three, and the fuss really is three what? Modes, manifestations, persona, entities?
Are you saying that the Son is not God but possesses divinity? That He processes divinity but is not the essence of God?
I fail to see the need to dis-fellowship those that confess Christ yet take one of these other views of the Godhead. Maybe you don't?
Praxeas
03-03-2007, 11:41 PM
So in reality there is three, and the fuss really is three what? Modes, manifestations, persona, entities?
Since you are making a blanket statement to everything I said, I really have no idea what your point is here....what do you mean "in reality there is three"? where did you get three?
No, there is no fuss. The disagreement is that Father and Son are two different divine persons, or one is a Divine person and the other is a Human person or both are the same personal deity in different modes or forms of being
Are you saying that the Son is not God but possesses divinity?
Never said the Son is not God. As I stated Father and Son are the same Person...the same self or Divine hypostasis in different modes of being. What we were supposed to be discussing was what the distinction is.
That He processes divinity but is not the essence of God?
Huh? Im sorry but I have no idea what you are saying. I never said anything like that.
I fail to see the need to dis-fellowship those that confess Christ yet take one of these other views of the Godhead. Maybe you don't?
We are discussing the distinctions as OPs see them. This topic is not about disfellowshipping nor have I said one iota about disfellowshipping. This topic is about what OPs believe
crakjak
03-04-2007, 12:11 AM
"..... or one is a Divine person and the other is a Human person or both are the same personal deity in different modes or forms of being"
I am currently working on where I stand concerning these two positions. I don't consider "three persons" as a reasonable view.
In reality there is three: Father, Son and Holy Spirit, the question is what are these three. Modes, persons etc, etc.
I was stating the disfellowship because these issues have been separation issues for most OP's. And I truly wish there was no fuss among believers.
In The Beginning, God.
I am still in the first chapter, I like the path that you've chosen to approach the subject. Seems that many supposed Trinitarians have strayed.It was the only approach that seemed to make sense - to start where God's word starts.
May engage discussion as I get more into it. I think you are very courageous to take on the subject.How do you want to do it? E-mail, PM, a separate thread?
The distiction is that the Father is God transcendent, as God continues to exist without the Human nature...He wills exclusively through the Divine will and nature.
The Son is God incarnate. God existing as a man, with a complete human nature/mind/psyche.
The Son wills exclusively through the Human nature and is someone other than God on a funtional/psychological level, not ontologically nor hypostatically.
They Son Does possess the Divine nature in him but willingly "empties" himself of the Divine perogatives (Kenosis)
Thus the distinction is real. It has to do with manner of being and nature, not about hypostatic persons.Well, perhaps not hypostatic divine persons but I Jesus' humanity was fully human, i.e. He was a fully human person.
Thus Father and Son actually exist. Those words are not mere titles. Father and Son are psychologically and existentially different.
Father and Son are NOT distinct as it pertains to hypostasis or the individual ego or self. But due to mode of existing and the human nature the Son is on a functional level someone other than God (I usually say "acts as though", but then someone inevitably thinks I mean acting like an actor and not acting as function).I think Jesus' humanity was fully human and, thus, it did have a distinct individual ego or self. Otherwise, we must say that Jesus was not fully human but, instead, was a divine-human hybrid.
So in reality there is three, and the fuss really is three what? Modes, manifestations, persona, entities?
Are you saying that the Son is not God but possesses divinity? That He processes divinity but is not the essence of God?
I fail to see the need to dis-fellowship those that confess Christ yet take one of these other views of the Godhead. Maybe you don't?God is God. That one God became "the Father" when He fathered (whether figuratively as in the creation of the angels and of Adam and Eve, whether literally as in impregnating Mary or whether by adoption as in the adoption of Christians). Jesus is God's "only begotten Son" because He was begotten (fathered) by God and what was begotten is limited to Jesus' humanity (unless you want to argue that the logos was figuratively begotten when God first spoke Creation into existence, since the logos is the word that God spoke, as well as the power behind that word; thus, it is said that "by Him" (the logos) "all things were made"; I'm not inclined to argue that way but some people who want to apply Jesus' status as the Son to His divinity might).
Praxeas
03-05-2007, 01:11 PM
Well, perhaps not hypostatic divine persons but I Jesus' humanity was fully human, i.e. He was a fully human person.
I think Jesus' humanity was fully human and, thus, it did have a distinct individual ego or self. Otherwise, we must say that Jesus was not fully human but, instead, was a divine-human hybrid.
I believe it was the Divine ego that personalized the human Jesus. In other words God united to himself a complete human nature. If that makes Him a human person then so be it, however that would really be a case of dividing the Divine hypostasis into a human and divine hypostasis....two of them, Two persons.
To say that Jesus was a human person, distinct from the Divine person...is a lot more like Unitarianism
I believe it was the Divine ego that personalized the human Jesus. In other words God united to himself a complete human nature. If that makes Him a human person then so be it, however that would really be a case of dividing the Divine hypostasis into a human and divine hypostasis....two of them, Two persons.
To say that Jesus was a human person, distinct from the Divine person...is a lot more like UnitarianismBut to say that Jesus did not have a human "ego" is to say that Jesus was not fully human. I don't have a problem with Jesus having the divine hypostasis (such as He would have as the logos of John 1:1) along with a fully human hypostasis. In order to be the second Adam, He would necessarily have the same characteristics that Adam had prior to the fall and this would include a human hypostasis (actually, it is Jesus' humanity itself that is the human hypostasis).
mizpeh
03-05-2007, 03:20 PM
But to say that Jesus did not have a human "ego" is to say that Jesus was not fully human. I don't have a problem with Jesus having the divine hypostasis (such as He would have as the logos of John 1:1) along with a fully human hypostasis. In order to be the second Adam, He would necessarily have the same characteristics that Adam had prior to the fall and this would include a human hypostasis (actually, it is Jesus' humanity itself that is the human hypostasis).
Chan, What is the human ego? What part of a human says "I"?
Chan, What is the human ego? What part of a human says "I"?You might ask Praxeas that one, since "ego" was the term he used. It is simply the self.
mizpeh
03-05-2007, 03:31 PM
You might ask Praxeas that one, since "ego" was the term he used. It is simply the self.
I know what Praxeas will say. I wanted to know what you thought. Does the self exist apart from the human nature? ie: the soul, spirit, body?
I know what Praxeas will say. I wanted to know what you thought. Does the self exist apart from the human nature? ie: the soul, spirit, body?The self comprises all of it: body, spirit, psyche (your use of "soul" in this context is not consistent with the way it is used in Genesis), nature, etc.
mizpeh
03-05-2007, 04:51 PM
The self comprises all of it: body, spirit, psyche (your use of "soul" in this context is not consistent with the way it is used in Genesis), nature, etc.
So you consider the "self" to be the inner and outer man which is the whole human person?
But my use of soul is consistent with the Paul's and Jesus' use of the word.
So you consider the "self" to be the inner and outer man which is the whole human person?Yes.
But my use of soul is consistent with the Paul's and Jesus' use of the word.Neither Jesus nor Paul used the ENGLISH word "soul." You need to look at the words that they did use.
Praxeas
03-13-2007, 02:55 PM
It seems to me anytime someone has a Divine "person" and a Human "Person" as their Christology (God and Jesus) then they have essentially historic Unitarianism.
It seems to me anytime someone has a Divine "person" and a Human "Person" as their Christology (God and Jesus) then they have essentially historic Unitarianism.Here is some information about Unitarianism:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unitarian
Also...
Unitarianism (http://www.religionfacts.com/christianity/beliefs/trinity.htm)
"Unitarianism" is the doctrine of the oneness of God, with the resultant denial of the Trinity. Today, the doctrine of unitarianism is expressed by the Unitarian Universalist Association and similar groups, which have their historical roots in sixteenth-century eastern Europe. Historically, Unitarian Universalists are defined by their rejection of the Trinity and their belief in the ultimate salvation of all humanity.
Today, however, Unitarians draw from a variety of religious traditions and do not focus on doctrine and creeds as much as love and justice between human beings. Because of this de-emphasis on doctrine, modern Unitarian Universalist arguments against the Trinity are scarce. However, the official Web site of the Unitarian Univeralist Association describes the early history of their beliefs this way: "During the first three centuries of the Christian church, believers could choose from a variety of tenets about Jesus. Among these was a belief that Jesus was an entity sent by God on a divine mission. Thus the word "Unitarian" developed, meaning the oneness of God. Another religious choice in the first three centuries of the Common Era (CE) was universal salvation. This was the belief that no person would be condemned by God to eternal damnation in a fiery pit. Thus a Universalist believed that all people will be saved. Christianity lost its element of choice in 325 CE when the Nicene Creed established the Trinity as dogma. For centuries thereafter, people who professed Unitarian or Universalist beliefs were persecuted."Also... http://mb-soft.com/believe/txc/unitaria.htm
vBulletin® v3.8.0, Copyright ©2000-2010, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.