Is There Any Power To Transform In Standards?

[Digging4Truth]

Is There Any Power To Transform In Standards?

If one lives every standard preached...
If the sleeves are down to there...
If the neck is up to there...
If the hair is just so...


If every standard is followed...

Has there been a tranformation of the mind?
Has there been a renewing of the mind?

I just see it as so much more effective and true to the mission to teach people to know and seek the Spirit of Christ.

To seek out what modesty is and live it.
To understand that to live according to God's wisdom returns peace, love, joy and all of these things.

If we seek, learn to love, hunger for & desire to live the very Spirit and nature of our God it would seem that every Godly "standard" would manifest itself because of that search and we will have then truly tranformed the heart.

The parable talks about the sower & the seed. There is no seed sowing in laying out standards. Nothing is planted, watered and allowed to grow.

Laying out standards is akin to just simply coming in and popping full grown plants out of the 5 gallon containers and planting them where there was no plant or a wild one there before.

The time invested in cleaning out the rubble, cultivating the soil and planting a seed is what creates relationship and love for one another. It also gives a true test of the soil.

If you bring in a 5 gallon container and pop the plant out and plant it in the soil then the plant will last for a while because you brought soil from another place with you. But... if the soil is not good enough to sustain life then the plant will eventually die... and we call them a backslider and cut the plant down.

I see no inate ability to transform the heart in the laying out of standards for people to obey.

I see no true measure of the soil (heart) in the laying out of standards for people to obey.

I see no investment of working out the rubble from the soil and help it to become able to sustain life in the laying out of standards for people to obey.

To learn, love, know and follow the Spirit and nature of our God... That accomplishes all of these things.

[philjones]

Short answer is NO! there is no power to transform in the standard keeping...

Rather it is the power that transforms that causes one to be a standard keeper! :)

[Digging4Truth]

Short answer is NO! there is no power to transform in the standard keeping...

Rather it is the power that transforms that causes one to be a standard keeper! :)

Ahhhhhhhhhhh... I see you have your horse before your cart. :)

Wouldn't want to do away with a good godly standard... I just think we should try to keep the horse in front of the cart.

[Malvaro]

Is There Any Power To Transform In Standards?

I've always thought of "standards" as kinda like guard-rails on a road....

they don't improve a person's driving ability, they just keep the driver from swerving off into a dangerous, and perhaps, deadly place.... they are only put in place to protect the driver from whats nearby....

I could willingly choose to smash through a safety guard-rail, but I would end up in a hopeless mess on the bottom of a ravine somewhere.... likewise, I could choose to smash through any "standards" that the scriptures and my pastor have placed in my life, but I would be entering an area that could possibly hurt or destroy me....

[Digging4Truth]

I've always thought of "standards" as kinda like guard-rails on a road....

they don't improve a person's driving ability, they just keep the driver from swerving off into a dangerous, and perhaps, deadly place.... they are only put in place to protect the driver from whats nearby....

I could willingly choose to smash through a safety guard-rail, but I would end up in a hopeless mess on the bottom of a ravine somewhere.... likewise, I could choose to smash through any "standards" that the scriptures and my pastor have placed for my life, but I would be entering an area that could possibly hurt or destroy me....

I look at them the same way I do all of God's other laws.

If I crawl out on a limb then I am going to hit the ground. It is a law. It is called gravity.

If I live my life after the wisdom of God then... just as gravity is a law... it is a law of God that this will return peace, contentment, strength etc into my life.

If I live my life after my own wisdom (the wisdom of man) then... just as gravity is a law... it is a law of God that this will eventually return to me family problems, marriage problems, pain, turmoil etc.

I live my life, I drive my car, I do all things in this life in recognition of my belief in the law of gravity and how it affects me.

I live my life and do all things in life with the recognition of my belief in the other laws of God and how it affects me.

God is wiser than I and any of His ways I can learn and live will return unto me results reserved for one much wiser than myself.

[Steve Epley]

Is There Any Power To Transform In Standards?

If one lives every standard preached...
If the sleeves are down to there...
If the neck is up to there...
If the hair is just so...


If every standard is followed...

Has there been a tranformation of the mind?
Has there been a renewing of the mind?

I just see it as so much more effective and true to the mission to teach people to know and seek the Spirit of Christ.

To seek out what modesty is and live it.
To understand that to live according to God's wisdom returns peace, love, joy and all of these things.

If we seek, learn to love, hunger for & desire to live the very Spirit and nature of our God it would seem that every Godly "standard" would manifest itself because of that search and we will have then truly tranformed the heart.

The parable talks about the sower & the seed. There is no seed sowing in laying out standards. Nothing is planted, watered and allowed to grow.

Laying out standards is akin to just simply coming in and popping full grown plants out of the 5 gallon containers and planting them where there was no plant or a wild one there before.

The time invested in cleaning out the rubble, cultivating the soil and planting a seed is what creates relationship and love for one another. It also gives a true test of the soil.

If you bring in a 5 gallon container and pop the plant out and plant it in the soil then the plant will last for a while because you brought soil from another place with you. But... if the soil is not good enough to sustain life then the plant will eventually die... and we call them a backslider and cut the plant down.

I see no inate ability to transform the heart in the laying out of standards for people to obey.

I see no true measure of the soil (heart) in the laying out of standards for people to obey.

I see no investment of working out the rubble from the soil and help it to become able to sustain life in the laying out of standards for people to obey.

To learn, love, know and follow the Spirit and nature of our God... That accomplishes all of these things.

NO the power is in the New Birth!!!!!!!!!!!! We have folks of Weslyan extraction around us to toe the line in every outward standard but are lost.
However our lifestyle does show His work in our lives. Standards like fences are safety barriers that remind us who we belong to. The 'ribbon of blue' on the fringe of the garment were to remind the Jew they were God's people thus different from those they sojourned with. It was blue because they belonged to Heaven not the Earth and they were to be distinct in the earth they lived. Their distinction has kept them a people through every dispersing since Babylon. So standards serve their purpose it reminds me I belong to Heaven and I am NOT of this world. My habits, appearance, entertainment, lifestyle in general tell me YOU are a child of the Most High God a peculiar people.

[The Kid]

I've always thought of "standards" as kinda like guard-rails on a road....

they don't improve a person's driving ability, they just keep the driver from swerving off into a dangerous, and perhaps, deadly place.... they are only put in place to protect the driver from whats nearby....

I could willingly choose to smash through a safety guard-rail, but I would end up in a hopeless mess on the bottom of a ravine somewhere.... likewise, I could choose to smash through any "standards" that the scriptures and my pastor have placed in my life, but I would be entering an area that could possibly hurt or destroy me....

Guardrails don't keep drivers from swerving off into a dangerous place, good and attentive driving does! Your car and the guardrails would be in pretty bad shape if that were the case, and not every winding mountain highway even has a guardrail.

The guardrail people have you fooled. :killinme

[Malvaro]

Guardrails don't keep drivers from swerving off into a dangerous place, good and attentive driving does! Your car and the guardrails would be in pretty bad shape if that were the case, and not every winding mountain highway even has a guardrail.

The guardrail people have you fooled. :killinme

ummmm, thats the point I was making -- standards do not transform a person's life....

I've seen some who insist on keep banging into the "guard-rail" and wonder why their life went crashing into a fiery disaster.... they insisted on being "free" to go anywhere and do anything they wanted without any potential consequences....

[The Kid]

ummmm, thats the point I was making -- standards do not transform a person's life....

I've seen who insist on keep banging into the "guard-rail" and wonder why their life went crashing into a fiery disaster.... they insisted on being "free" to go anywhere and do anything they wanted without any potential consequences....

Well, I took your comments to mean that unless there are guardrails, we have a difficult time driving.

[Chan]

If following outward "standards" could do anything to transform our lives, there would be no need for the Holy Ghost and the Pharisees would have been saved.

[Digging4Truth]

I believe in standards. I live standards.

But I don't believe in the laying out of do's & dont's for people. Wear this... do that...

I believe in teaching biblical principles such as modest, holiness, meekness, respect etc coupled with instruction on how to search the mind of God for these things and allowing people to work out their own salvation with fear & trembling.

A thought came to me while typing this and I not only found the though to be interesting but one particular portion really stood out.

First the point...

It is like animals that are raised in captivity. Their meals are prepared for them...they are caged up... they never have an opportunity to learn to eek a living out on their own and are, therefore, unable to cope in the real world they were meant to live in.

The second thing I found intersting...

In the example above... living where standards are laid out for you rather than searching it out on your own....is tantamount to being raised in..... captivity.

Go figure.

[Newman]

I believe in standards. I live standards.

But I don't believe in the laying out of do's & dont's for people. Wear this... do that...

I believe in teaching biblical principles such as modest, holiness, meekness, respect etc coupled with instruction on how to search the mind of God for these things and allowing people to work out their own salvation with fear & trembling.

A thought came to me while typing this and I not only found the though to be interesting but one particular portion really stood out.

First the point...

It is like animals that are raised in captivity. Their meals are prepared for them...they are caged up... they never have an opportunity to learn to eek a living out on their own and are, therefore, unable to cope in the real world they were meant to live in.

The second thing I found intersting...

In the example above... living where standards are laid out for you rather than searching it out on your own....is tantamount to being raised in..... captivity.

Go figure.


Playing devil's advocate....

Standards may not have tranformation power but perhaps they create an environment/hedge that precludes one from mixing with with others who don't have the same standards.

This probably works out very well for new saints coming in from extremely dysfunctional lifestyles. It could be argued that the standards keep them in an environment that is conducive to growing closer to God rather than being drawn back out into the world and their previous lifestyle.

Alternatively, standards may be a stumbling block to those whose initial lifestyle wasn't dysfunctional to start with. It may create issues for people where there doesn't have to be issues.

Just other points of view to ponder... ;)

[rrford]

Guardrails don't keep drivers from swerving off into a dangerous place, good and attentive driving does! Your car and the guardrails would be in pretty bad shape if that were the case, and not every winding mountain highway even has a guardrail.

The guardrail people have you fooled. :killinme

But the guardrail people are smart enough to know that the placement of a guardrail lets one of know of a possible danger.

The guardrail still lets people drive however they want to drive.

[rrford]

Playing devil's advocate....

Standards may not have tranformation power but perhaps they create an environment/hedge that precludes one from mixing with with others who don't have the same standards.

This probably works out very well for new saints coming in from extremely dysfunctional lifestyles. It could be argued that the standards keep them in an environment that is conducive to growing closer to God rather than being drawn back out into the world and their previous lifestyle.

Alternatively, standards may be a stumbling block to those whose initial lifestyle wasn't dysfunctional to start with. It may create issues for people where there doesn't have to be issues.

Just other points of view to ponder... ;)

And good points they are...

[HeavenlyOne]

I've always thought of "standards" as kinda like guard-rails on a road....

they don't improve a person's driving ability, they just keep the driver from swerving off into a dangerous, and perhaps, deadly place.... they are only put in place to protect the driver from whats nearby....

I could willingly choose to smash through a safety guard-rail, but I would end up in a hopeless mess on the bottom of a ravine somewhere.... likewise, I could choose to smash through any "standards" that the scriptures and my pastor have placed in my life, but I would be entering an area that could possibly hurt or destroy me....

What if the guardrails were placed so your car could barely get through? Wouldn't that be a hazard also?

How about guardrails in the middle of the road? Ones that are unevenly placed, depending on where the person in charge of placing them thought they should be?

The latter statement is how I view most standards teachings.

[rrford]

What if the guardrails were placed so your car could barely get through? Wouldn't that be a hazard also?

How about guardrails in the middle of the road? Ones that are unevenly placed, depending on where the person in charge of placing them thought they should be?

The latter statement is how I view most standards teachings.

That is indeed sad. And indicative that you were not blessed to have ministers in your life who correctly taught standards.

[Scott Hutchinson]

External things do not transform us,The Holy Ghost and the blood of The Lamb does, however the Holy Ghost works from the inside out.It is seen as well as heard.

[HeavenlyOne]

That is indeed sad. And indicative that you were not blessed to have ministers in your life who correctly taught standards.


No no. I'm talking about anyone who teaches them, not just pastors I've had.

For instance, there are things you allow that Epley swears will send people to hell and he preaches against them. There are things some allow that you preach against.

That's what I mean by the guardrails being unevenly placed according to where the person placing them thinks they need to be. You place yours in one place, Epley places his in another place, other pastors place theirs in another place.

So, who's right? Everyone thinks they are right and everyone who doesn't believe as they do is wrong....so how is it determined?

[HeavenlyOne]

External things do not transform us,The Holy Ghost and the blood of The Lamb does, however the Holy Ghost works from the inside out.It is seen as well as heard.


Great post.

[Malvaro]

What if the guardrails were placed so your car could barely get through? Wouldn't that be a hazard also?

How about guardrails in the middle of the road? Ones that are unevenly placed, depending on where the person in charge of placing them thought they should be?

You must live in the North.... do you live in WI by chance? That sounds like something they'd do up there....

[Scott Hutchinson]

Great post.

Thank you at least you don't consider me a compromiser and yes I do believe in outward modesty.

[HeavenlyOne]

You must live in the North.... do you live in WI by chance? That sounds like something they'd do up there....

LOL!

They do it in Illinois too, cause that's where I've lived my entire life before moving here.

[HeavenlyOne]

Thank you at least you don't consider me a compromiser and yes I do believe in outward modesty.


As do I, bro. As do I.

[Scott Hutchinson]

As do I, bro. As do I.

I'm not as strict as some here but I believe the church should stay with modesty.
Hey HO how is your job and family doing?

[HeavenlyOne]

I'm not as strict as some here but I believe the church should stay with modesty.
Hey HO how is your job and family doing?

I believe everyone, whether in church or not, should practice modesty.

I'm not currently working often as I'm in school. Kids are doing well and looking forward to having a snow day tomorrow.....LOL!

How are you doing with your oldest girl? I think about you all often. Especially when we are having cold weather....LOL!

[Scott Hutchinson]

I believe everyone, whether in church or not, should practice modesty.

I'm not currently working often as I'm in school. Kids are doing well and looking forward to having a snow day tomorrow.....LOL!

How are you doing with your oldest girl? I think about you all often. Especially when we are having cold weather....LOL!

My oldest daughter needs God in her life of course I tell her this every day.
She's a ornery 14 yrs. old girl.She's in a awkward time of life.
Our church is very small and there's hardly any young people in the church for her to mingle with.
I have failings as a parent but I'm trying.

[HeavenlyOne]

My oldest daughter needs God in her life of course I tell her this every day.
She's a ornery 14 yrs. old girl.She's in a awkward time of life.
Our church is very small and there's hardly any young people in the church for her to mingle with.
I have failings as a parent but I'm trying.

There will come a day when she will appreciate your efforts. Don't ever give up on her, and when her life crumbles, help her pick up the pieces and move on.

Lord knows we were all young and dumb once. More than once for me.....LOL!

Someday I might share with you the story of my life. I will make your girl look angelic, I promise.

[Neck]

Here is a blanket statement. No matter who refutes it, they are wrong. Most standard issues cause a couple of things.

Saints always feeling guilty because they go to a movie etc.

They feel guilty for cutting their hair.

They get skilled at living a lie....

I have seen it a million times.

The girls in the choir where thier hair is so straight in the back.

It's like the military in so many cases, Don't ask-Don't tell.

The honest saints who tell folks what they are doing....

[rrford]

Here is a blanket statement. No matter who refutes it, they are wrong. Most standard issues cause a couple of things.

Saints always feeling guilty because they go to a movie etc.

They feel guilty for cutting their hair.

They get skilled at living a lie....

I have seen it a million times.

The girls in the choir where thier hair is so straight in the back.

It's like the military in so many cases, Don't ask-Don't tell.

The honest saints who tell folks what they are doing....

Here is an honest statement and anyone who refutes it is wrong.

Neckstadt has not seen this a million times.

[seguidordejesus]

I'm going to take Neckstadt's posts to our local university writing center and get him some professional help :)

[Neck]

Here is an honest statement and anyone who refutes it is wrong.

Neckstadt has not seen this a million times.

I attended a church of 1500 UPCI. I counted one service how many women noticable cut their hair, but only in the front or the back.

Oh it looked long.

I counted so many I laughed out loud.

My wife asked me lated what I was laughing about.

[Neck]

I'm going to take Neckstadt's posts to our local university writing center and get him some professional help :)

I could write more clearly, but I am tired. As for what I stated. When the honest folks tell the pastor they cut their hair etc.

They are sat down.

While you can notice others cut their hair but will never utter a word.

[rrford]

I attended a church of 1500 UPCI. I counted one service how many women noticable cut their hair, but only in the front or the back.

Oh it looked long.

I counted so many I laughed out loud.

My wife asked me lated what I was laughing about.

But a million???? Come on now!

[Digging4Truth]

Brother Eckstadt...

You must be right on the mark or something...

When they have to go all the way to picking at a well understood statement of "a million times" which simply means lots and lots of times you must be on to something.

Click here (http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/search.php?searchid=19973) to see the many times that "million times" has been typed in the short life of this forum and yet it appears that you may be required to provide a list of all 1 million times.

I think what you are saying is exactly true... and apparently... so do others.

It reminds me of an old joke from days gone by... "I've told you a million times never to exaggerate" :)

[Rhoni]

Here is a blanket statement. No matter who refutes it, they are wrong. Most standard issues cause a couple of things.

Saints always feeling guilty because they go to a movie etc.

They feel guilty for cutting their hair.

They get skilled at living a lie....

I have seen it a million times.

The girls in the choir where thier hair is so straight in the back.

It's like the military in so many cases, Don't ask-Don't tell.

The honest saints who tell folks what they are doing....

:highfive This is the truth, and if you have been to many General Conferences...the million thing could be about right;)

:heeheehee

Blessings, Rhoni

[drummerboy_dave]

Good thread, folks. :)

[Digging4Truth]

Playing devil's advocate....

Okay... sounds good... I will volley back and we will see where it leads us.

Standards may not have tranformation power but perhaps they create an environment/hedge that precludes one from mixing with with others who don't have the same standards.

And also preclude us from mixing with others who need salvation.

This salvation, when experience in its fulness, is enough to give us strength to go ahead and be in the world while no longer being of the world.

Also... which standards would keep us from mixing with others?

This probably works out very well for new saints coming in from extremely dysfunctional lifestyles. It could be argued that the standards keep them in an environment that is conducive to growing closer to God rather than being drawn back out into the world and their previous lifestyle.

I would think that the last thing someone from a dysfunctional lifestyle needs is another set of blind rules to follow without good reason. Remember... I am not saying get rid of standards. I am saying that standards have no power to transform. It is the word of God, the way of God, the mind of God that transforms us as we strive to be more like Him. And this is all done due to the power we receive after that the Holy Ghost has come upon us.

I think that someone from a dysfunctional lifestyle needs, maybe more than anyone, someone to take them and show them what thus saith the word of God with great patience and begin to teach this dear one to see for themselves. In most cases a dysfuncation lifestyle will have come from someone in their lives who have forced them to do things that they could not reconcile in their brains.

It would seem to me that when they are saved that this is the time to begin the healing... not continue the dysfunction.

Alternatively, standards may be a stumbling block to those whose initial lifestyle wasn't dysfunctional to start with. It may create issues for people where there doesn't have to be issues.

I believe it does sometimes.

Like I have been saying... I don't think that there is any substitute for teaching what the Bible says.... not my interpretation of what the Bible says... but what the Bible says... and let them work out their own salvation with fear and trembling.

There is also some teaching that has to go on with HOW to search out ones own salvation with fear and trembling.

Teaching them that as you read the word you need to be in prayer that God would speak to you the things he would have you to do.

God DOES lead people. Especially when given the opportunity.

Teaching them to be open to hearing from God and that our own carnal reasoning is not what is going to lead us to God.

Teaching them that His ways are high above our ways like the heavens are above the earth.

Teaching them that He is a rewarder of those who will diligently seek Him.

Teaching them that if they will seek His face He will move His hand.

Basically... teaching them how to forge a relationship with their creator and redeemer.

Then... when that process is done... I am only a fellow brother and their God is their leader, guide, lover, friend, saviour, redeemer... HE is their all in all and THEY are healed.

[Neck]

But a million???? Come on now!

I suggest with a Million a very large percentage...

[Neck]

Brother Eckstadt...

You must be right on the mark or something...

When they have to go all the way to picking at a well understood statement of "a million times" which simply means lots and lots of times you must be on to something.

Click here (http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/search.php?searchid=19973) to see the many times that "million times" has been typed in the short life of this forum and yet it appears that you may be required to provide a list of all 1 million times.

I think what you are saying is exactly true... and apparently... so do others.

It reminds me of an old joke from days gone by... "I've told you a million times never to exaggerate" :)

If the UPCI is 2.4 Million and 65% are Women. It could be a million after thinking about it. You are right I was just using a common statement meant to say a large number.....