Nehemiah & Malachi

[Digging4Truth]

I would like to take some time to put together a better representation of my question but I really don't have the time.

So, for now, I am going to quote a post I made on another forum.

The issue I was dealing with was someones comment that the writings of Nehemiah concerning Tobiah were about "laymen" running the church.

The issue I am really presenting here is how the knowledge that Nehemiah and Malachi were contemporaries affects the message that was being put forth in Malachi 3:8 etc.

Here is a portion of the post.

The issue wasn't that Tobiah was a "layman" (Wherever that term comes from)

The issue was that Tobiah was an Ammonite and when the word was read in the midst of the congregation the congregation heard from the word "that the Ammonite and the Moabite should not come into the congregation of God for ever"

Not only were ammonites & moabites in the congregation but Tobiah (an Ammonite) was living in the storehouse that was supposed to hold the meat offerings, the frankincense, and the vessels, and the tithes of the corn, the new wine, and the oil.

The priests were not supposed to be receiving the tithe. The Levites were. The Levites were supposed to be giving the priests their portion but the priests had taken over the distribution of the tithe and there had been a total departure from God's law concerning the handling of the tithe. (Now that would preach all day all by itself.)

There was another OT writer that lived in the time of Nehemiah. You know him as Malachi.

In Malachi 2:1 he begins a scathing chastisement of the priests which continues through the end of the book and also includes Malachi 3:8.

Malachi 3:8 was written about the actions of the priests during the time of Malachi.

Mal 3:7 Even from the days of your fathers ye are gone away from mine ordinances, and have not kept [them]. Return unto me, and I will return unto you, saith the LORD of hosts. But ye said, Wherein shall we return?
Mal 3:8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.
Mal 3:9 Ye [are] cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, [even] this whole nation.

He says here that they have gone away from God's ordinances and Nehemiah certainly did confirm that during this same space in time there was a great departure from God's law of the tithe by the priesthood.

He went on to say that they had robbed God... even the whole nation.


Mal 3:10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that [there shall] not [be room] enough [to receive it].

Remember what was in the storehouse in Nehemiah? An Ammonite and there were no meat offerings, no corn, no oil. Malachi is challenging them to bring the tithe into the storehouse. I have no idea where the tithe had been kept but during the time that Tobiah's occupation of the storehouse (The time of Nehemiah and Malachi) the tithes were not kept there.

Nehemiah's comments on Tobiah are not about a church that had begun to be ruled by the "laymen". It is, instead, about a priesthood who had ceased to obey the laws of God and had blatantly disobeyed commands given them by God.

[Ron]

I would like to take some time to put together a better representation of my question but I really don't have the time.

So, for now, I am going to quote a post I made on another forum.

The issue I was dealing with was someones comment that the writings of Nehemiah concerning Tobiah were about "laymen" running the church.

The issue I am really presenting here is how the knowledge that Nehemiah and Malachi were contemporaries affects the message that was being put forth in Malachi 3:8 etc.

Here is a portion of the post.

The issue wasn't that Tobiah was a "layman" (Wherever that term comes from)

The issue was that Tobiah was an Ammonite and when the word was read in the midst of the congregation the congregation heard from the word "that the Ammonite and the Moabite should not come into the congregation of God for ever"

Not only were ammonites & moabites in the congregation but Tobiah (an Ammonite) was living in the storehouse that was supposed to hold the meat offerings, the frankincense, and the vessels, and the tithes of the corn, the new wine, and the oil.

The priests were not supposed to be receiving the tithe. The Levites were. The Levites were supposed to be giving the priests their portion but the priests had taken over the distribution of the tithe and there had been a total departure from God's law concerning the handling of the tithe. (Now that would preach all day all by itself.)

There was another OT writer that lived in the time of Nehemiah. You know him as Malachi.

In Malachi 2:1 he begins a scathing chastisement of the priests which continues through the end of the book and also includes Malachi 3:8.

Malachi 3:8 was written about the actions of the priests during the time of Malachi.



He says here that they have gone away from God's ordinances and Nehemiah certainly did confirm that during this same space in time there was a great departure from God's law of the tithe by the priesthood.

He went on to say that they had robbed God... even the whole nation.



Remember what was in the storehouse in Nehemiah? An Ammonite and there were no meat offerings, no corn, no oil. Malachi is challenging them to bring the tithe into the storehouse. I have no idea where the tithe had been kept but during the time that Tobiah's occupation of the storehouse (The time of Nehemiah and Malachi) the tithes were not kept there.

Nehemiah's comments on Tobiah are not about a church that had begun to be ruled by the "laymen". It is, instead, about a priesthood who had ceased to obey the laws of God and had blatantly disobeyed commands given them by God.

Interesting D4T.
One question, where did you get this background info?

[Digging4Truth]

Interesting D4T.
One question, where did you get this background info?

Sorry.. drawing a blank here...

What background info?

I don't remember getting any from anywhere other than reading Malachi & Nehemiah as well as a few other OT books.

Let me know what portion you are speaking of and I will take a look.

[crakjak]

I would like to take some time to put together a better representation of my question but I really don't have the time.

So, for now, I am going to quote a post I made on another forum.

The issue I was dealing with was someones comment that the writings of Nehemiah concerning Tobiah were about "laymen" running the church.

The issue I am really presenting here is how the knowledge that Nehemiah and Malachi were contemporaries affects the message that was being put forth in Malachi 3:8 etc.

Here is a portion of the post.

The issue wasn't that Tobiah was a "layman" (Wherever that term comes from)

The issue was that Tobiah was an Ammonite and when the word was read in the midst of the congregation the congregation heard from the word "that the Ammonite and the Moabite should not come into the congregation of God for ever"

Not only were ammonites & moabites in the congregation but Tobiah (an Ammonite) was living in the storehouse that was supposed to hold the meat offerings, the frankincense, and the vessels, and the tithes of the corn, the new wine, and the oil.

The priests were not supposed to be receiving the tithe. The Levites were. The Levites were supposed to be giving the priests their portion but the priests had taken over the distribution of the tithe and there had been a total departure from God's law concerning the handling of the tithe. (Now that would preach all day all by itself.)

There was another OT writer that lived in the time of Nehemiah. You know him as Malachi.

In Malachi 2:1 he begins a scathing chastisement of the priests which continues through the end of the book and also includes Malachi 3:8.

Malachi 3:8 was written about the actions of the priests during the time of Malachi.



He says here that they have gone away from God's ordinances and Nehemiah certainly did confirm that during this same space in time there was a great departure from God's law of the tithe by the priesthood.

He went on to say that they had robbed God... even the whole nation.



Remember what was in the storehouse in Nehemiah? An Ammonite and there were no meat offerings, no corn, no oil. Malachi is challenging them to bring the tithe into the storehouse. I have no idea where the tithe had been kept but during the time that Tobiah's occupation of the storehouse (The time of Nehemiah and Malachi) the tithes were not kept there.

Nehemiah's comments on Tobiah are not about a church that had begun to be ruled by the "laymen". It is, instead, about a priesthood who had ceased to obey the laws of God and had blatantly disobeyed commands given them by God.


Wow, this shines some light on the idea that many have that the tithe BELONG to the priest/pastor? Sounds like the Levities were to hold the priest accountable, but to make sure they received their portion, yeah that could preach. Oh, but who is able to preach it?

[Digging4Truth]

Wow, this shines some light on the idea that many have that the tithe BELONG to the priest/pastor? Sounds like the Levities were to hold the priest accountable, but to make sure they received their portion, yeah that could preach. Oh, but who is able to preach it?

Someone without fear of man perhaps? :)

Oh... I see... you do have a point. :)

[Ron]

Sorry.. drawing a blank here...

What background info?

I don't remember getting any from anywhere other than reading Malachi & Nehemiah

Let me know what portion you are speaking of and I will take a look.

I don't remember (not that it isn't there) reading about Tobias, and how the Priests distributed the tithe.

Pardon my ignorance Bro.

[Digging4Truth]

I don't remember (not that it isn't there) reading about Tobias, and how the Priests distributed the tithe.

Pardon my ignorance Bro.

Not a problem...

it is in there...

Give me a bit and I will pull all of that together for you.

[Ron]

Not a problem...

it is in there...

Give me a bit and I will pull all of that together for you.

Thanks Bro.
It ain't a sin to be ignorant-it's just a sin to stay that way!:rolleyes:

[Digging4Truth]

Neh 13:1 On that day they read in the book of Moses in the audience of the people; and therein was found written, that the Ammonite and the Moabite should not come into the congregation of God for ever;
Neh 13:2 Because they met not the children of Israel with bread and with water, but hired Balaam against them, that he should curse them: howbeit our God turned the curse into a blessing.

I quoted this because it is important in that Tobiah was an Amomonite. (See Neh 4:3 Now Tobiah the Ammonite [was] by him, and he said, Even that which they build, if a fox go up, he shall even break down their stone wall.


Neh 13:3 Now it came to pass, when they had heard the law, that they separated from Israel all the mixed multitude.
Neh 13:4 And before this, Eliashib the priest, having the oversight of the chamber of the house of our God, [was] allied unto Tobiah:
Neh 13:5 And he had prepared for him a great chamber, where aforetime they laid the meat offerings, the frankincense, and the vessels, and the tithes of the corn, the new wine, and the oil, which was commanded [to be given] to the Levites, and the singers, and the porters; and the offerings of the priests.

Then we see later on in the same chapter that the portion of the Levites had not been distributed to them. Since the Levites were the ones who were supposed to be doing the distributing it is clear that the tithe was no longer going through the proper channels that God had commanded.

Neh 13:10 And I perceived that the portions of the Levites had not been given [them]: for the Levites and the singers, that did the work, were fled every one to his field.

Let me know if that doesn't answer your questions.

[Digging4Truth]

Thanks Bro.
It ain't a sin to be ignorant-it's just a sin to stay that way!:rolleyes:

LOL... aint that the truth... and I am SO thankful it isn't a sin to be ignorant. I wouldn't have a chance. :)

[Ron]

I quoted this because it is important in that Tobiah was an Amomonite. (See Neh 4:3 Now Tobiah the Ammonite [was] by him, and he said, Even that which they build, if a fox go up, he shall even break down their stone wall.




Then we see later on in the same chapter that the portion of the Levites had not been distributed to them. Since the Levites were the ones who were supposed to be doing the distributing it is clear that the tithe was no longer going through the proper channels that God had commanded.



Let me know if that doesn't answer your questions.

Very Interesting. It does cause me to rethink things.
Worth pondering on.
Thanks for posting.

[Ron]

LOL... aint that the truth... and I am SO thankful it isn't a sin to be ignorant. I wouldn't have a chance. :)

Well a man full of pride "thinks" he knows everything. One who has grown a bit realizes that he "doesn't" know everything, and can be benefited by learning from others!;)

[Digging4Truth]

Very Interesting. It does cause me to rethink things.
Worth pondering on.
Thanks for posting.

No problem.,...

Thanks for reading with an open mind.

If you have any further thoughts on the subject I would be glad to hear them. I am always open to learn, re-learn, unlearn... whatever it takes to be true to the word.

[Digging4Truth]

I would like to hear what the take of some of the preachers & pastors on the forum is.

Would any of you care to comment on the scriptures being presented?

[Chan]

I would like to take some time to put together a better representation of my question but I really don't have the time.

So, for now, I am going to quote a post I made on another forum.

The issue I was dealing with was someones comment that the writings of Nehemiah concerning Tobiah were about "laymen" running the church.

The issue I am really presenting here is how the knowledge that Nehemiah and Malachi were contemporaries affects the message that was being put forth in Malachi 3:8 etc.

Here is a portion of the post.

The issue wasn't that Tobiah was a "layman" (Wherever that term comes from)

The issue was that Tobiah was an Ammonite and when the word was read in the midst of the congregation the congregation heard from the word "that the Ammonite and the Moabite should not come into the congregation of God for ever"

Not only were ammonites & moabites in the congregation but Tobiah (an Ammonite) was living in the storehouse that was supposed to hold the meat offerings, the frankincense, and the vessels, and the tithes of the corn, the new wine, and the oil.

The priests were not supposed to be receiving the tithe. The Levites were. The Levites were supposed to be giving the priests their portion but the priests had taken over the distribution of the tithe and there had been a total departure from God's law concerning the handling of the tithe. (Now that would preach all day all by itself.)

There was another OT writer that lived in the time of Nehemiah. You know him as Malachi.

In Malachi 2:1 he begins a scathing chastisement of the priests which continues through the end of the book and also includes Malachi 3:8.

Malachi 3:8 was written about the actions of the priests during the time of Malachi.



He says here that they have gone away from God's ordinances and Nehemiah certainly did confirm that during this same space in time there was a great departure from God's law of the tithe by the priesthood.

He went on to say that they had robbed God... even the whole nation.



Remember what was in the storehouse in Nehemiah? An Ammonite and there were no meat offerings, no corn, no oil. Malachi is challenging them to bring the tithe into the storehouse. I have no idea where the tithe had been kept but during the time that Tobiah's occupation of the storehouse (The time of Nehemiah and Malachi) the tithes were not kept there.Ezra was another contemporary and in his book it talks about all those - from the princes and priests on down - that had taken foreign wives (contrary to the Law of Moses).

Nehemiah's comments on Tobiah are not about a church that had begun to be ruled by the "laymen". It is, instead, about a priesthood who had ceased to obey the laws of God and had blatantly disobeyed commands given them by God.
Beware those who would try to spiritualize literal events and try to make them apply to the Church!

[Digging4Truth]

Ezra was another contemporary and in his book it talks about all those - from the princes and priests on down - that had taken foreign wives (contrary to the Law of Moses).


Beware those who would try to spiritualize literal events and try to make them apply to the Church!

I have been awaiting your comments on this thread.

It is a hard thing to pass your muster sometimes and I was anxious to see what your thoughts were.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

I was aware that Ezra was a contemporary of Nehemiah & Malachi but, while doing the study, I didn't look into anything Ezra may have had to say along these lines.

I will look into it and increase my knowledge of this area.

Thanks again.

[Chan]

I have been awaiting your comments on this thread.

It is a hard thing to pass your muster sometimes and I was anxious to see what your thoughts were.What was that well-worn expression from the 1980s? Not! :)

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

I was aware that Ezra was a contemporary of Nehemiah & Malachi but, while doing the study, I didn't look into anything Ezra may have had to say along these lines.

I will look into it and increase my knowledge of this area.

Thanks again.Well, I don't know of too many people who would have thought to bring together Nehemiah and Malachi and what you posted is the first thing I've ever seen bringing the two together. It's interesting to see just how far the Jews had gone in letting themselves be corrupted by the Gentiles around them. Goodness! There was a Gentile (someone who was outside of God's covenant) living in the storehouse of the temple (the temple being the place where God had chosen to put His name). Why those who decided the order in which to put the OT books in English translations of the Bible didn't put Malachi with Ezra and Nehemiah, I don't know.

[Digging4Truth]

What was that well-worn expression from the 1980s? Not! :)

Well, I don't know of too many people who would have thought to bring together Nehemiah and Malachi and what you posted is the first thing I've ever seen bringing the two together. It's interesting to see just how far the Jews had gone in letting themselves be corrupted by the Gentiles around them. Goodness! There was a Gentile (someone who was outside of God's covenant) living in the storehouse of the temple (the temple being the place where God had chosen to put His name). Why those who decided the order in which to put the OT books in English translations of the Bible didn't put Malachi with Ezra and Nehemiah, I don't know.

Yes sir... it was discussion with those who disagreed with me that finally helped me put all of this together. (That's how it goes... I learn very little when everyone agrees... I learn so much more when discussing in a civil manner with someone who disagrees... as I sometimes say... Iron sharpens iron... but only when moving in opposite directions)

Have you ever used http://www.blueletterbible.org ?

It is a great resource. When doing this study I used the timeline a lot.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/study/parallel/timeline/

They have lots of different study tools here.... http://www.blueletterbible.org/study/

[crakjak]

I would like to take some time to put together a better representation of my question but I really don't have the time.

So, for now, I am going to quote a post I made on another forum.

The issue I was dealing with was someones comment that the writings of Nehemiah concerning Tobiah were about "laymen" running the church.

The issue I am really presenting here is how the knowledge that Nehemiah and Malachi were contemporaries affects the message that was being put forth in Malachi 3:8 etc.

Here is a portion of the post.

The issue wasn't that Tobiah was a "layman" (Wherever that term comes from)

The issue was that Tobiah was an Ammonite and when the word was read in the midst of the congregation the congregation heard from the word "that the Ammonite and the Moabite should not come into the congregation of God for ever"

Not only were ammonites & moabites in the congregation but Tobiah (an Ammonite) was living in the storehouse that was supposed to hold the meat offerings, the frankincense, and the vessels, and the tithes of the corn, the new wine, and the oil.

The priests were not supposed to be receiving the tithe. The Levites were. The Levites were supposed to be giving the priests their portion but the priests had taken over the distribution of the tithe and there had been a total departure from God's law concerning the handling of the tithe. (Now that would preach all day all by itself.)

There was another OT writer that lived in the time of Nehemiah. You know him as Malachi.

In Malachi 2:1 he begins a scathing chastisement of the priests which continues through the end of the book and also includes Malachi 3:8.

Malachi 3:8 was written about the actions of the priests during the time of Malachi.



He says here that they have gone away from God's ordinances and Nehemiah certainly did confirm that during this same space in time there was a great departure from God's law of the tithe by the priesthood.

He went on to say that they had robbed God... even the whole nation.



Remember what was in the storehouse in Nehemiah? An Ammonite and there were no meat offerings, no corn, no oil. Malachi is challenging them to bring the tithe into the storehouse. I have no idea where the tithe had been kept but during the time that Tobiah's occupation of the storehouse (The time of Nehemiah and Malachi) the tithes were not kept there.

Nehemiah's comments on Tobiah are not about a church that had begun to be ruled by the "laymen". It is, instead, about a priesthood who had ceased to obey the laws of God and had blatantly disobeyed commands given them by God.


How often it is that we simply accept the interpretation of men and tradition without in serious study, that would clearly reveal the lack of support for the traditions of men. This post clearly shows the misuse of these scriptures to support the current tradition.

[Pressing-On]

Excellent thread, Digging.

On a side note, I've always viewed Malachi as a "changing of the guard" type of thing. I believe the Lord was warning them and then telling them why he was doing away with the Old Covenant.

Malachi 4:5-6, pretty much, seals the deal, IMO. This is what I am going to do next, preview.

I've never viewed Mal 3:8 as anything other than the final warning. I certainly wouldn't carry that into the NT church and use it for a threat.

[Digging4Truth]

Excellent thread, Digging.

On a side note, I've always viewed Malachi as a "changing of the guard" type of thing. I believe the Lord was warning them and then telling them why he was doing away with the Old Covenant.

Malachi 4:5-6, pretty much, seals the deal, IMO. This is what I am going to do next, preview.

I've never viewed Mal 3:8 as anything other than the final warning. I certainly wouldn't carry that into the NT church and use it for a threat.

I look forward to your study.

I agree with your feelings on Malachi 3:8.

And the thing is that...

once the discussion is said and done....

once we can agree on things such as the tithe not carrying over into the NT..

Once we can agree that these verses are being misused and twisted from their original message and intent when used as a "threat" of sorts about tithing...

Then... we all agree that a tenth is a great rule of thumb.

We could really accomplish something in these discussions if we could ever get past the constant having to answer for things we are not trying to accomplish.

We aren't against giving... we are against the misuse and misapplication of scripture. We are against a lie and we are for the truth.

[Pressing-On]

I look forward to your study.

I agree with your feelings on Malachi 3:8.

And the thing is that...

once the discussion is said and done....

once we can agree on things such as the tithe not carrying over into the NT..

Once we can agree that these verses are being misused and twisted from their original message and intent when used as a "threat" of sorts about tithing...

Then... we all agree that a tenth is a great rule of thumb.

We could really accomplish something in these discussions if we could ever get past the constant having to answer for things we are not trying to accomplish.

We aren't against giving... we are against the misuse and misapplication of scripture. We are against a lie and we are for the truth.
I look forward to your studies also, Digging!

I agree with your whole post here. And, YES - 10% is a great rule of thumb.

We aren't against giving... we are against the misuse and misapplication of scripture. We are against a lie and we are for the truth.

Right!!!!!! Well said, but who believes that? :D

[Sam]

Ezra, Haggai, Zechariah, Esther, Nehemiah, and Malachi cover the time from when the Jews returned from exile in Babylon until a little over 400 years before the birth of Jesus. Esther takes place in Persia but the other books record the return to Judah, rebuilding the Temple, rebuilding the city of Jerusalem, and reinstating the Temple rituals. Remember, these folks were under the covenant of the Law. They were trying to re-establish things in their land according to the law.

Tobiah having control over a portion of the Temple and the administration of the food/tithes is not an example of a layperson having control but an example of an unsaved person or a person outside the covenant having control of Temple business.

All Scripture is written for us but not all Scripture is written to us. We can learn from examples under the law but we are not required to obey those rules and observe those rituals.