Strike While The Iron Is Hot?

[Scott Hutchinson]

Suppose someone comes to an altar and repents in a church service or revival meeting. And they request baptism ,should you go on and immediately baptism them burying them with Him in the name of The Lord or you should instruct them about baptism and then take them to a watery grave?
Or should one strike while the iron is hot so to speak?

[stmatthew]

As far as I can see, we should never put off the baptizing of a freshly repented person. If you aint got the tub filled, you likely aint walking in faith for souls.

[Theophilus]

As far as I can see, we should never put off the baptizing of a freshly repented person. If you aint got the tub filled, you likely aint walking in faith for souls.

Agreed. You will not find any hesitation in the Word.

[Scott Hutchinson]

So in other words ST.MATT. baptize them wheter they really understand what they are doing?

[stmatthew]

So in other words ST.MATT. baptize them wheter they really understand what they are doing?

Does a corpse understand why he is being buried??

[Digging4Truth]

You ever hear the phrase... "there's always room for Jello"? :)

Man... there's always time for teaching.

I think too much is done in the heat of the moment these days. It is almost like... hey lets dunk them before they change their mind. Well if you only have a few minutes window of time before they change their mind then how deep is this conversion?

I don't mean a 3 week bible study before you baptize them. I don't even mean wait until another night. But I think people need (and they even appreciate) someone taking the time to sit down for a few minutes and explain what all this is that is going on here.

We once had an evangelist come in who, when he would go and pray for people, would stop them and ask if they had repented. He explained what repentance was, what it was for, why we needed to do it, and all that... They would then repent (if they hadn't done so before) and he would continue praying for them.

I don't remember any of the numbers from the revival.... sorry.

But these people then actually understood more about what was going on.

Quite often people feel something VERY real but are confused as all get out because they don't know what's going on.

Whew... a few minutes can make a world of difference.

What's the hurry? Fear? Whatever is not of faith is sin.

It is the word that is going to change their lives. It is the spirit that is going to give them the power to accomplish it.

Don't let them walk off into that water... don't let them be put under that water calling on that name... don't let them do this... without first making sure that they, at least in some measure, comprehend the unbelievable, merciful, powerful, life changing thing that is about to happen.

There are several things in life too beautiful to just fly off in a mad rush into... this is certainly one of them.

[SDG]

Does a corpse understand why he is being buried??

Isn't there an obstacle course from the altar to the tank that they've got to complete in order to qualify??? :killinme

[Scott Hutchinson]

Does a corpse understand why he is being buried??

No he doesn't but with children parental consent must be obtained.
I would go ahead and baptize someone in Jesus Name before someone talks them out of it.

[stmatthew]

You ever hear the phrase... "there's always room for Jello"? :)

Man... there's always time for teaching.

I think too much is done in the heat of the moment these days. It is almost like... hey lets dunk them before they change their mind. Well if you only have a few minutes window of time before they change their mind then how deep is this conversion?

I don't mean a 3 week bible study before you baptize them. I don't even mean wait until another night. But I think people need (and they even appreciate) someone taking the time to sit down for a few minutes and explain what all this is that is going on here.

We once had an evangelist come in who, when he would go and pray for people, would stop them and ask if they had repented. He explained what repentance was, what it was for, why we needed to do it, and all that... They would then repent (if they hadn't done so before) and he would continue praying for them.

I don't remember any of the numbers from the revival.... sorry.

But these people then actually understood more about what was going on.

Quite often people feel something VERY real but are confused as all get out because they don't know what's going on.

Whew... a few minutes can make a world of difference.

What's the hurry? Fear? Whatever is not of faith is sin.

It is the word that is going to change their lives. It is the spirit that is going to give them the power to accomplish it.

Don't let them walk off into that water... don't let them be put under that water calling on that name... don't let them do this... without first making sure that they, at least in some measure, comprehend the unbelievable, merciful, powerful, life changing thing that is about to happen.

There are several things in life too beautiful to just fly off in a mad rush into... this is certainly one of them.

No he doesn't but with children parental consent must be obtained.
I would go ahead and baptize someone in Jesus Name before someone talks them out of it.

I agree that things should be done in proper order. But I sometimes wonder why we want to teach someone that does not have spiritual eye's to see into the kingdom. If we go ahead and bury the dead, and let them come forth resurrected in the holy ghost, they are then ready to understand what has taken place.

We don't but a microphone on a mothers womb and explain to the baby what is fixen to happen to them when they come out of the womb. We do not talk to dead folks and let them know that we are getting ready to bury them in the earth. Why spend time trying to teach someone something they cannot see with spiritual eyes. Why not wait until they are born again, and then they will be able to see it with spiritual eyes.

[SDG]

I agree that things should be done in proper order. But I sometimes wonder why we want to teach someone that does not have spiritual eye's to see into the kingdom. If we go ahead and bury the dead, and let them come forth resurrected in the holy ghost, they are then ready to understand what has taken place.

We don't but a microphone on a mothers womb and explain to the baby what is fixen to happen to them when they come out of the womb. We do not talk to dead folks and let them know that we are getting ready to bury them in the earth. Why spend time trying to teach someone something they cannot see with spiritual eyes. Why not wait until they are born again, and then they will be able to see it with spiritual eyes.

Do you see how this sounds like re-enactment Matt????

[Praxeas]

Suppose someone comes to an altar and repents in a church service or revival meeting. And they request baptism ,should you go on and immediately baptism them burying them with Him in the name of The Lord or you should instruct them about baptism and then take them to a watery grave?
Or should one strike while the iron is hot so to speak?
If they have repented and understand what repentance means baptism immediately

[Praxeas]

So in other words ST.MATT. baptize them wheter they really understand what they are doing?
Why does understanding why have to do with anything? Can't you obey the Lord out of faith without understanding why yet? Are we supposed to be like little kids "why? Why? Why?"?

No where in the bible did they ask for a bible lesson first on why baptism...they just obeyed

[Truly Blessed]

I agree that things should be done in proper order. But I sometimes wonder why we want to teach someone that does not have spiritual eye's to see into the kingdom. If we go ahead and bury the dead, and let them come forth resurrected in the holy ghost, they are then ready to understand what has taken place.

We don't but a microphone on a mothers womb and explain to the baby what is fixen to happen to them when they come out of the womb. We do not talk to dead folks and let them know that we are getting ready to bury them in the earth. Why spend time trying to teach someone something they cannot see with spiritual eyes. Why not wait until they are born again, and then they will be able to see it with spiritual eyes.I can't believe I have just read what I have read here. I am glad that I understood why I was being baptized. I feel you rob believers of something very special by not making sure that they fully appreciate the full significance of baptism. I have had far too many people who have expressed that they wished they could be rebaptized once they heard me explain the full significance of it during a message, to not take the time to share with someone what baptism means.

[Praxeas]

1sam 15:22 So Samuel said:

“Has the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, As in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, And to heed than the fat of rams.

[Praxeas]

I can't believe I have just read what I have read here. I am glad that I understood why I was being baptized. I feel you rob believers of something very special by not making sure that they fully appreciate the full significance of baptism. I have had far too many people who have expressed that they wished they could be rebaptized once they heard me explain the full significance of it during a message, to not take the time to share with someone what baptism means.
It doesn't take long to explain the significance of baptism. You can do it in a minute or so. If they are obedient they will not be debating with you

[SDG]

I can't believe I have just read what I have read here. I am glad that I understood why I was being baptized. I feel you rob believers of something very special by not making sure that they fully appreciate the full significance of baptism. I have had far too many people who have expressed that they wished they could be rebaptized once they heard me explain the full significance of it during a message, to not take the time to share with someone what baptism means.

TB ... the re-nactment is only at step 1 ... the water is about to break ... quick ... stat .... call a doctor ...

[Arphaxad]

Here's what I was taught about baptism, "Does anyone want to be baptized tonight? ( I was already repented) and I felt it was the thing to do so I went up. Heres what I was taught about the Holy Ghost, before I went under the water I was told " when you come up out of the water, lift your hands and start praising and thanking Jesus, and if you start saying words you dont understand just keep on speaking them, that means you are recieving the gift of the Holy Ghost." I knew nothing about Holy Ghost, or why to be baptized in Jesus' name, or speaking in tongues, but I came out of the water filled with the Holy Ghost, speaking in tongues. I learned afterwards what it all meant, and praised God all the more.
So I say if someone feels they are ready to be baptized, than do it. It's really between him or her and God.

[Truly Blessed]

1sam 15:22 So Samuel said:

“Has the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, As in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, And to heed than the fat of rams.Your out of context on this one!

[SDG]

Prax ... u ready for this????

[Praxeas]

Your out of context on this one!
how am I out of context on this one?

[SDG]

You are not ready .. r u????

[SDG]

The Oneness Ninja vs. the Bishop

[Truly Blessed]

BTW, In this concept of the baby in the womb, when does the baby die and get buried prior to being born?

[SDG]

BTW, In this concept of the baby in the womb, when does the baby die and get buried prior to being born?

oh my God ... that's horrible .... can't the guy keep his analogy ....:killinme :killinme

[Arphaxad]

BTW, In this concept of the baby in the womb, when does the baby die and get buried prior to being born?

That aint cool. One of the sisters in church just had a baby die in the womb, right before delivery time.

[Praxeas]

That aint cool. One of the sisters in church just had a baby die in the womb, right before delivery time.
Wow, that's tragic.

[Truly Blessed]

That aint cool. One of the sisters in church just had a baby die in the womb, right before delivery time.Sorry to hear this, but I keep hearing this analogy of the new birth compared to a baby in the womb having life, but not yet born, which we know is true in the natural. However, it doesn't stand up to their doctrinal position that repentance is death, and baptism burial, which must happen before being born of the Spirit.

[Praxeas]

Sorry to hear this, but I keep hearing this analogy of the new birth compared to a baby in the womb having life, but not yet born, which we know is true in the natural. However, it doesn't stand up to their doctrinal position that repentance is death, and baptism burial, which must happen before being born of the Spirit.
You gonna tell me how what I said is out of context?

[Truly Blessed]

You gonna tell me how what I said is out of context?Faith isn't blind! I don't believe that we can use that scripture to justify baptizing someone without them understanding why they need to be baptized. Even John the Baptist expected those coming to him for baptism to bring forth fruit that indicated they had truly repented. (Mt.3:8)

On the Day of Pentecost, Peter, after telling the multitude to repent and be baptized, didn't immediately baptize them. Acts2:40 informs us that with many other words he warned them and pleaded with them. Then verse 41 says, "Those who accepted his message were baptized."

Early on in my ministry I tended to baptize immediately, but after finding that some people got caught up in the moment and got baptized, but then didn't continue on to walk with the Lord, I began to be more careful. To me baptism is too important to make it a light matter. I like to know the Word has taken root beyond the first time they have responded to it. Jesus says we're to first count the cost and then follow Him.

[Digging4Truth]

I agree that things should be done in proper order. But I sometimes wonder why we want to teach someone that does not have spiritual eye's to see into the kingdom. If we go ahead and bury the dead, and let them come forth resurrected in the holy ghost, they are then ready to understand what has taken place.

We don't but a microphone on a mothers womb and explain to the baby what is fixen to happen to them when they come out of the womb. We do not talk to dead folks and let them know that we are getting ready to bury them in the earth. Why spend time trying to teach someone something they cannot see with spiritual eyes. Why not wait until they are born again, and then they will be able to see it with spiritual eyes.

To me... this analogy is way off.

First... the word IS the seed. Without the word there is no conception. Without conception there is no birth.

Secondly... why would God give us a plan of salvation that we were unable to comprehend until after we were saved?

In other posts the concept of blind faith is mentioned. First... the faith is already there or we wouldn't be discussing when to baptize them. They have expressed the faith. What a monumentally wrong foot would it be to start on if we begin their birth process on a "accept this because I said it" basis.

I understand the sentiment of how important believing God is but why were the Berreans more noble because they searched whether these things be true?

I think that we should believe God just because he said something. Because... after all... he is God.

But.... now this might be a shocker to some of you... but I am NOT God so no one is compelled to believe me just because I said it.

Now this might be a double shocker but... you are not God either. So it would behoove someone to indeed believe God simply because he is God... If one were to believe God (and the writings of His word) then they would also search out what any of us men say whether these things be true.

It is often said that the Catholics are wrong for baptizing infants because you baptize believers and an infant can't believe.

Faith comes by hearing... and hearing by the word of God.

Faith without the word is not faith.

The word is necessary for their to be faith.

This scripture keeps coming up to me here lately on things like this... but... whatsoever is not of faith.. is sin.

Let us build everything we do.. from the new birth on... on faith. There is no faith outside the dissemination of the word of God. Well.. no faith in God at least. Without the word being planted all we have accomplished is faith in men. And that... my friend... is a sinking ship from the beginning.

[SDG]

Sorry to hear this, but I keep hearing this analogy of the new birth compared to a baby in the womb having life, but not yet born, which we know is true in the natural. However, it doesn't stand up to their doctrinal position that repentance is death, and baptism burial, which must happen before being born of the Spirit.

Bishop ... I am more convinced every day that their position is flawed at best .... we fall into trouble when we must create such analogies to fit our doctrine ... absolutely no coherency or harmony with the ultimate source ... God's Word.

Please continue to be a purveyor of truth, as you of a great blessing. Seriously. :ty

[freeatlast]

Analogies do not equal doctrine.

Analogies often are used to "shore up" a faulty position.

[Digging4Truth]

As far as my previous post goes... I did use an analogy of birth and the word but it was only one sentence.

I say 2 things.

1. I don't think the analogy is so far fetched.

1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

When we are born the first time... it is of a corruptible seed. (Seed of man) when we are born again... it is of an incorruptible seed...What is that seed? The word of God. It would seem that birth by seed requires conception.

2. Nevertheless... having said that... I will receive your disagreement and ask that my post be weighed on the other dozen or so sentences and not that one.

[Digging4Truth]

Analogies do not equal doctrine.

Analogies often are used to "shore up" a faulty position.

Analogies are a type of parable. So I think that we have precedent for analogies/parables to be used to demonstrate good doctrine (which I have always been real impressed with that Jesus Christ fellow) and, of course, it can also be used to demonstrate false doctrine.

Could be used either way.

[Digging4Truth]

Bishop ... I am more convinced every day that their position is flawed at best .... we fall into trouble when we must create such analogies to fit our doctrine ... absolutely no coherency or harmony with the ultimate source ... God's Word.

Please continue to be a purveyor of truth, as you of a great blessing. Seriously. :ty

Do you feel that 1 Peter 1:23 bears any basis at all for the analogy of the word being the seed for the 2nd birth?

1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

[SDG]

Do you feel that 1 Peter 1:23 bears any basis at all for the analogy of the word being the seed for the 2nd birth?

Please don't misinterpret me, Dig ... I am not anti-analogies ... however I am realizing that 3 steppers spew them like there doctrine, inordinately and confidently...

and what's more fascinating is that often the same analogies contradict their own positions.

As long as the analogy is sound doctrinally then yes, use them.

I agree with yours.

[Digging4Truth]

Please don't misinterpret me, Dig ... I am not anti-analogies ... however I am realizing that 3 steppers spew them like there doctrine, inordinately and confidently...

and what's more fascinating is that often the same analogies contradict their own positions.

As long as the analogy is sound doctrinally then yes, use them.

I agree with yours.

Thank you sir for taking time to reply.

I have seen the things you speak of. I have to admit that I used the analogy "off the cuff" and your post forced me to go to the word and see what basis I may have for using the analogy.

I now know a scripture that appears to bear out this analogy but I also know that, so far, there is only one so it is an analogy that I will use sparingly.

Thanks for sending me to the word yet again.

[Chan]

Suppose someone comes to an altar and repents in a church service or revival meeting. And they request baptism ,should you go on and immediately baptism them burying them with Him in the name of The Lord or you should instruct them about baptism and then take them to a watery grave?
Or should one strike while the iron is hot so to speak?
Baptize them immediately!

[Steve Epley]

All penitent folks were immediately baptized in Acts. We keep the baptistry filled and clothes ready. We want them to get justified before they leave.:highfive

[SDG]

All penitent folks were immediately baptized in Acts. We keep the baptistry filled and clothes ready. We want them to get justified before they leave.:highfive

Justified and, even remitted ... Righteous but not rapture ready.

Right, Elder????

[crakjak]

Faith isn't blind! I don't believe that we can use that scripture to justify baptizing someone without them understanding why they need to be baptized. Even John the Baptist expected those coming to him for baptism to bring forth fruit that indicated they had truly repented. (Mt.3:8)

On the Day of Pentecost, Peter, after telling the multitude to repent and be baptized, didn't immediately baptize them. Acts2:40 informs us that with many other words he warned them and pleaded with them. Then verse 41 says, "Those who accepted his message were baptized."

Early on in my ministry I tended to baptize immediately, but after finding that some people got caught up in the moment and got baptized, but then didn't continue on to walk with the Lord, I began to be more careful. To me baptism is too important to make it a light matter. I like to know the Word has taken root beyond the first time they have responded to it. Jesus says we're to first count the cost and then follow Him.

I understand the desire to move quickly, but totally agree with this post. Over the years, I have seen many come and respond in the moment and then when the emotion wears off they fall away.

[Praxeas]

Faith isn't blind! I don't believe that we can use that scripture to justify baptizing someone without them understanding why they need to be baptized. Even John the Baptist expected those coming to him for baptism to bring forth fruit that indicated they had truly repented. (Mt.3:8)

First of all I did not say I was justifying anything other than the importance of obedience. John expected fruit of repentance...he did not sit down with them and give a 2 day bible study on what baptism means.

On the Day of Pentecost, Peter, after telling the multitude to repent and be baptized, didn't immediately baptize them. Acts2:40 informs us that with many other words he warned them and pleaded with them. Then verse 41 says, "Those who accepted his message were baptized."
Yes but where does it say he gave them a bible study on what the meaning of baptism was before they could be baptized? I mean, the truth is they WERE baptized immediately. There is no indication hours and days went by between verse 38 and verse 41.

In fact verse 40 is just Peter still trying to convince them people they needed to be saved

And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

Not ONE word about a bible study on the the WHYs of baptism

Early on in my ministry I tended to baptize immediately, but after finding that some people got caught up in the moment and got baptized, but then didn't continue on to walk with the Lord, I began to be more careful. To me baptism is too important to make it a light matter. I like to know the Word has taken root beyond the first time they have responded to it. Jesus says we're to first count the cost and then follow Him.
It doesn't take hours or days to instruct someone why they are being baptized. Immediate is sadly here is being subjective. You can instruct that person in a matter of minutes and let them know what is the importance of water baptism.

And for the record I found out a LOT more about water baptism than just that I needed to be baptized, after I was baptized, and I never regretted my baptism and wanted to be re-baptized.

Now, I still don't see you showing me how what I said is out of context. Usually when someone does that they show you the context and show how you used it has nothing to do with how you used it. And How I used it was to show how important obedience was....care to show me ?

[Praxeas]

Bishop ... I am more convinced every day that their position is flawed at best .... we fall into trouble when we must create such analogies to fit our doctrine ... absolutely no coherency or harmony with the ultimate source ... God's Word.

Please continue to be a purveyor of truth, as you of a great blessing. Seriously. :ty
Could you be more specific when you say "their position", because I never used an analogy. I don't want you to be putting all of us in that position. That would be dishonest

[Steve Epley]

Faith isn't blind! I don't believe that we can use that scripture to justify baptizing someone without them understanding why they need to be baptized. Even John the Baptist expected those coming to him for baptism to bring forth fruit that indicated they had truly repented. (Mt.3:8)

On the Day of Pentecost, Peter, after telling the multitude to repent and be baptized, didn't immediately baptize them. Acts2:40 informs us that with many other words he warned them and pleaded with them. Then verse 41 says, "Those who accepted his message were baptized."

Early on in my ministry I tended to baptize immediately, but after finding that some people got caught up in the moment and got baptized, but then didn't continue on to walk with the Lord, I began to be more careful. To me baptism is too important to make it a light matter. I like to know the Word has taken root beyond the first time they have responded to it. Jesus says we're to first count the cost and then follow Him.

And ADDED to the church!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You must be baptized to be ADDED to the church.

[Steve Epley]

Sorry to hear this, but I keep hearing this analogy of the new birth compared to a baby in the womb having life, but not yet born, which we know is true in the natural. However, it doesn't stand up to their doctrinal position that repentance is death, and baptism burial, which must happen before being born of the Spirit.

Flawed????????????????? Jesus, Peter, James, Paul , John, used this analogy of the new birth but what did they know????????????

[SDG]

Flawed????????????????? Jesus, Peter, James, Paul , John, used this analogy of the new birth but what did they know????????????

Yeah .. they did and they knew when it started ... kudos for your tenacity.

[The Dean]

And ADDED to the church!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You must be baptized to be ADDED to the church.

Epley,

I love your tenacity. I love the fact you don't bend to fit popular molds.

I'm glad you're here.

[Chan]

Flawed????????????????? Jesus, Peter, James, Paul , John, used this analogy of the new birth but what did they know????????????They used the new birth analogy but they didn't use the baby in the womb analogy.

[Bryan]

John the Baptist said to "...Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance..."

[OneAccord]

You ever hear the phrase... "there's always room for Jello"? :)

Man... there's always time for teaching.

I think too much is done in the heat of the moment these days. It is almost like... hey lets dunk them before they change their mind. Well if you only have a few minutes window of time before they change their mind then how deep is this conversion?

I don't mean a 3 week bible study before you baptize them. I don't even mean wait until another night. But I think people need (and they even appreciate) someone taking the time to sit down for a few minutes and explain what all this is that is going on here.

We once had an evangelist come in who, when he would go and pray for people, would stop them and ask if they had repented. He explained what repentance was, what it was for, why we needed to do it, and all that... They would then repent (if they hadn't done so before) and he would continue praying for them.

I don't remember any of the numbers from the revival.... sorry.

But these people then actually understood more about what was going on.

Quite often people feel something VERY real but are confused as all get out because they don't know what's going on.

Whew... a few minutes can make a world of difference.

What's the hurry? Fear? Whatever is not of faith is sin.

It is the word that is going to change their lives. It is the spirit that is going to give them the power to accomplish it.

Don't let them walk off into that water... don't let them be put under that water calling on that name... don't let them do this... without first making sure that they, at least in some measure, comprehend the unbelievable, merciful, powerful, life changing thing that is about to happen.

There are several things in life too beautiful to just fly off in a mad rush into... this is certainly one of them.


I agree. Before Phillip baptized the Ethiopian, he taught him about baptism. Before Peter baptized on the day of Pentecost, the converts were instructed about baptism. Before Paul baptized the 12 Ephesian brothers, he instructed them about baptism. I think the phrase "strike when the iron is hot" is misapplied here. New converts are usually caught up in enthusiam and express a desire to be baptized without understanding the purpose and significance of baptism. Usually, those who are baptized without some very basic instruction don't last very long. I think they should be instructed as to the purpose of baptism and what is expected of them once they are baptized.
'Course that might cut down on the number we baptize, but with some basic instuction, those who are baptized are likely to last.

[Digging4Truth]

I agree. Before Phillip baptized the Ethiopian, he taught him about baptism. Before Peter baptized on the day of Pentecost, the converts were instructed about baptism. Before Paul baptized the 12 Ephesian brothers, he instructed them about baptism. I think the phrase "strike when the iron is hot" is misapplied here. New converts are usually caught up in enthusiam and express a desire to be baptized without understanding the purpose and significance of baptism. Usually, those who are baptized without some very basic instruction don't last very long. I think they should be instructed as to the purpose of baptism and what is expected of them once they are baptized.
'Course that might cut down on the number we baptize, but with some basic instuction, those who are baptized are likely to last.

Some great points here.

And truthfully, I don't even really see that there would be any fewer being baptized. What's a few minutes instruction going to cost?

Are they going to walk out while we take a few moments to explain the significance of what is about to happen?

To want to baptized them so quickly that you can't afford a few minutes to open the word to them and explain what is about to occur seems to built on fear rather than faith... to me at least.

[OneAccord]

All penitent folks were immediately baptized in Acts. We keep the baptistry filled and clothes ready. We want them to get justified before they leave.:highfive

I respectfully disagree. I find very basic instruction in every virtually biblical example of baptism in the Book of Acts. Peter preached the Gospel (which included Acts 2:38) before people were baptized. In Acts 8, Phillip preached Jesus to the Ethiopian (which, no doubt, included teaching on water baptism). Paul was instructed to call on the name of the Lord and be baptized. Cornelius household were taught about baptism before they were baptized. And Paul instructed the Ephesain brethren in the Word before they were baptized. It would seem that it is more scriptural that converts be instructed in the matter of water baptism before they are baptized. But thats just my thoughts.

[RevDWW]

I respectfully disagree. I find very basic instruction in every virtually biblical example of baptism in the Book of Acts. Peter preached the Gospel (which included Acts 2:38) before people were baptized. In Acts 8, Phillip preached Jesus to the Ethiopian (which, no doubt, included teaching on water baptism). Paul was instructed to call on the name of the Lord and be baptized. Cornelius household were taught about baptism before they were baptized. And Paul instructed the Ephesain brethren in the Word before they were baptized. It would seem that it is more scriptural that converts be instructed in the matter of water baptism before they are baptized. But thats just my thoughts.

How much inistruction does it take? If the message or bible study they responded too, has the Gospel included wouldn't you baptize them after they repented? Who is going to get Baptized without being told what baptism is?

[OneAccord]

How much inistruction does it take? If the message or bible study they responded too, has the Gospel included wouldn't you baptize them after they repented? Who is going to get Baptized without being told what baptism is?

Why yes, I would baptize them after they had repented. However, I would take a few minutes of "one on one time" to ensure they understand the significance of water baptism before I baptize them. Because this is the biblical example. And, lets say the sermon or Bible Study was on, say, healing, and there was no mention of baptism. In our church, baptism is not the main meassage. We don't mention baptism in every breath. It may not even be mentioned in the service. So, a little instruction is in order, just like the Bible teaches.

I forgot to mention... We have an on-going "New Converts Class" in our church. New Converts are invited to attend to recieve instruction on living the Christian Life. We require new converts to attend one class (where they are taught about baptism) before they are baptized. The class only lasts 20 to 30 minutes.

[RevDWW]

Why yes, I would baptize them after they had repented. However, I would take a few minutes of "one on one time" to ensure they understand the significance of water baptism before I baptize them. Because this is the biblical example. And, lets say the sermon or Bible Study was on, say, healing, and there was no mention of baptism. In our church, baptism is not the main meassage. We don't mention baptism in every breath. It may not even be mentioned in the service. So, a little instruction is in order, just like the Bible teaches.

I agree, the baptizee should know reason for being the baptizee.....:thumbsup

[Rhoni]

Suppose someone comes to an altar and repents in a church service or revival meeting. And they request baptism ,should you go on and immediately baptism them burying them with Him in the name of The Lord or you should instruct them about baptism and then take them to a watery grave?
Or should one strike while the iron is hot so to speak?

You should sit down with them, usually an altar worker can do this, and show them the need for baptism and the method, then allowing them to make their own decision about it. If they don't fully understand offer them a Bible Study with one of your altar leaders who is also a discipler who teaches from the word.

Blessings, Rhoni

[RevDWW]

The Gospel is simple. It's not rocket science. What does it take to explain that with repentance you die to your sins, with baptism the dead is buried, and coming out of the water is a representation of the resurrection. Jesus dies, was buried , and arose. And so should all that have faith in Him.


That's not hard to understand.

[SDG]

The Gospel is simple. It's not rocket science. What does it take to explain that with repentance you die to your sins, with baptism the dead is buried, and coming out of the water is a representation of the resurrection. Jesus dies, was buried , and arose. And so should all that have faith in Him.


That's not hard to understand.

But ... nah.

[RevDWW]

But ... nah.

Obey are perish. It's that simple is it not? :tease

[SDG]

Obey or perish. It's that simple is it not? :tease

No gray area????

[OneAccord]

The Gospel is simple. It's not rocket science. What does it take to explain that with repentance you die to your sins, with baptism the dead is buried, and coming out of the water is a representation of the resurrection. Jesus dies, was buried , and arose. And so should all that have faith in Him.


That's not hard to understand.


To you, the Gospel is simple. To me (now) the Gospel is simple. To people who grew up in the Apostolic Truth, the Gospel is simple. But to the new convert, it may not be so simple. You see, when I came to the Lord, I had never heard the word "baptism". I didn't know what "speaking in tongues" was. I didn't know who Jesus was, except the He was a good man who helped the needy. I didn't know the difference between Jesus and Buddha. I didn't know how to pray, didn't know what prayer was. Read my prayers from a Catholic prayer book. I was as dumb as a box of rocks. Thank God for a pastor who sat me down and "expounded unto [me] the way of God more perfectly". Thank God, he had enough wisdom to sit me down and teach me the ABC's of living for God. The people of that church were use to algebra. I needed the ABC's of living for the Lord.

No, you're right, brother. Its not that hard to understand. But, like the Ethiopian, many young converts, who want to understand, are saying, "How can I, except some man should guide me? Act 8:31

[Praxeas]

John the Baptist said to "...Bring forth therefore fruits worthy of repentance..."
One of which was to submit to baptism...John didn't give them 10 lessons on why :heeheehee

[Praxeas]

How much inistruction does it take? If the message or bible study they responded too, has the Gospel included wouldn't you baptize them after they repented? Who is going to get Baptized without being told what baptism is?

It doesn't take much. You never see anyone in Acts stopping everything and saying "We need to have a bible study first"....nope

My suspicious are they they understood enough of what was necessary to obey.....then they learned more later on.. Else why did Paul teach in the Epistles on what baptism was to churchs already converted?

[Praxeas]

Why yes, I would baptize them after they had repented. However, I would take a few minutes of "one on one time" to ensure they understand the significance of water baptism before I baptize them. Because this is the biblical example. And, lets say the sermon or Bible Study was on, say, healing, and there was no mention of baptism. In our church, baptism is not the main meassage. We don't mention baptism in every breath. It may not even be mentioned in the service. So, a little instruction is in order, just like the Bible teaches.

I forgot to mention... We have an on-going "New Converts Class" in our church. New Converts are invited to attend to recieve instruction on living the Christian Life. We require new converts to attend one class (where they are taught about baptism) before they are baptized. The class only lasts 20 to 30 minutes.
And that's fine, but for all appearencies all that was necessary was faith and a willingness to obey. If they have real faith obedience will be inherit in their heart. YOu don't have to tell them every little facet about what baptism is for or about. They will just obey. You just never see anyone in the bible going "Uh...Peter do I why do I need to be baptized" and Peter going "well let's have a bible study"...

Rather you have
Act 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
Act 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
Act 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

There is no biblical mandate to make sure they know every little detail about what baptism isin order for the baptism to be valid.

[Praxeas]

You should sit down with them, usually an altar worker can do this, and show them the need for baptism and the method, then allowing them to make their own decision about it. If they don't fully understand offer them a Bible Study with one of your altar leaders who is also a discipler who teaches from the word.

Blessings, Rhoni
Now here I really agree. They should know the method. I hate seeing the shock on someone's face after being dunked when they thought you were gonna pour :killinme

[mizpeh]

To you, the Gospel is simple. To me (now) the Gospel is simple. To people who grew up in the Apostolic Truth, the Gospel is simple. But to the new convert, it may not be so simple. You see, when I came to the Lord, I had never heard the word "baptism". I didn't know what "speaking in tongues" was. I didn't know who Jesus was, except the He was a good man who helped the needy. I didn't know the difference between Jesus and Buddha. I didn't know how to pray, didn't know what prayer was. Read my prayers from a Catholic prayer book. I was as dumb as a box of rocks. Thank God for a pastor who sat me down and "expounded unto [me] the way of God more perfectly". Thank God, he had enough wisdom to sit me down and teach me the ABC's of living for God. The people of that church were use to algebra. I needed the ABC's of living for the Lord.

No, you're right, brother. Its not that hard to understand. But, like the Ethiopian, many young converts, who want to understand, are saying, "How can I, except some man should guide me? Act 8:31


Your right, to someone not brought up in church or not having a knowledge of the Bible, it is all Greek! I was totally lost when reading the gospels and the demon spoke through the possessed man to Jesus and then was cast in the herd of swine. I needed someone to tell me who was talking and what was going on.

[OneAccord]

It doesn't take much. You never see anyone in Acts stopping everything and saying "We need to have a bible study first"....nope

My suspicious are they they understood enough of what was necessary to obey.....then they learned more later on.. Else why did Paul teach in the Epistles on what baptism was to churchs already converted?


Suspicion. Assumption. The fact is, in every instance of water baptism in the Book of Acts, the "baptizee" was instructed about baptism BEFORE they were baptized. Snatch 'em up from the altar and baptize them with absoultely no clue as to why they are being baptized? Oh... assuming they had enough of what was necessary to obey. Obey what? What is expected of them? The people on the day of Pentecost asked, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?". Peter then explained to them then and there what God requires of them. This is the "ABC's of living the Christian life". Yes, later Paul did teach in the Epistles about baptism. But this... this was Algebra. In every baptismal instance in the NT, I find, that, yes, they absolutely did stop everything to have a "bible study" on water baptism. Peter did at Pentecost(and again with Cornelius' household), Phillip did, as did Paul in Acts 19. I agree, it wasn't 10 lessons and wasn't in depth, but it was the ABC's.

[Praxeas]

Suspicion. Assumption. The fact is, in every instance of water baptism in the Book of Acts, the "baptizee" was instructed about baptism BEFORE they were baptized
If this is a fact, then you won't mind providing the scriptural proof in every baptismal instance. On the other hand I don't deny they might have had some quick instructions on how and maybe even why, but not a bible study. Not where they had to stop everything and sit down and do a study. Let's remember the NT has not even been written yet. Most likely the disciples of John and the jewish converts understood baptism and most likely those Gentiles like Cornelius that understood Jewish religion already understood baptism. It was not a new thing.

Snatch 'em up from the altar and baptize them with absoultely no clue as to why they are being baptized?
Nobody said "with no clue as to why"...let's this logially, not based on emotions and knee jerk reactions

Oh... assuming they had enough of what was necessary to obey. Obey what? What is expected of them? The people on the day of Pentecost asked, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?". Peter then explained to them then and there what God requires of them.
That's MY point. Peter explained real quick what they had to do. We dont' see him giving a 10 minute bible study lesson on Baptism and what it means and does and all the types and shadows etc etc. It does not take much for someone with faith to obey what they were told they need to do. There is no requirement to sit down and do a bible study on the topic of baptism anymore than there was on repentance. If they have faith you can tell them real quick what repentance means and what baptism means etc etc

Yes, later Paul did teach in the Epistles about baptism. But this... this was Algebra.
I think you are agreeing with me but you don't even realize it. It does not take a bible study to inform them every thing and every reason about baptism.

In every baptismal instance in the NT, I find, that, yes, they absolutely did stop everything to have a "bible study" on water baptism. Peter did at Pentecost(and again with Cornelius' household), Phillip did, as did Paul in Acts 19. I agree, it wasn't 10 lessons and wasn't in depth, but it was the ABC's.
Please post the verses in context that show Peter giving a bible study on baptism after the hearers having already had faith to believe and submit to baptism and repent. I don't see it. Peter said "repent and be baptized" and the only thing added after that was his contininuing to preach that they needed to be saved...not a bible study on what baptism was.

Same with Cornelious...he is preaching to them and they get the Holy Ghost during his preaching...Peter does not stop it all and say "Ok goyims let's have a bible study on baptism because you guys need to know what it's all about before I can baptize you"...sorry...you won't find that in scriptures.

All you have is Peter saying
Act 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
Act 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Where is the bible study on baptism? The NT didn't even exist at this point. They just had the OT.

[OneAccord]

Rather you have
Act 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

Act 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
Act 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.


Actually, (and with respect) what we have is....

Act 10:34-43 ¶ Then Peter opened [his] mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted wiThe word which [God] sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:)th him.

That word, [I say], ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;

How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:
Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;
Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, [even] to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.
And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God [to be] the Judge of quick and dead.
To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Act 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

A little more in depth when we look at the whole picture.

[Praxeas]

Your right, to someone not brought up in church or not having a knowledge of the Bible, it is all Greek! I was totally lost when reading the gospels and the demon spoke through the possessed man to Jesus and then was cast in the herd of swine. I needed someone to tell me who was talking and what was going on.

I was not raised in the church. I accepted Jesus as my savior but never went to church. I never learned about what baptism was or for. The only thing I knew is I saw someone else being baptized. I knew other Christians were baptized...I did not care nor need to know every little detail about the topic of baptism. Then a friend showed me John 3:5...that was enough for me. I learned more about water baptism in Jesus name and the significance of it later on and never regretted not learning it till later nor wanted to be rebaptized. My faith in Him is enough.

[Praxeas]

Rather you have
Act 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

Act 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
Act 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.


Actually, (and with respect) what we have is....

Act 10:34-43 ¶ Then Peter opened [his] mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:

But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted wiThe word which [God] sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all:)th him.

That word, [I say], ye know, which was published throughout all Judaea, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;

How God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him.

And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:
Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;
Not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, [even] to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead.
And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God [to be] the Judge of quick and dead.
To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Act 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

A little more in depth when we look at the whole picture.
Right...do you realize that I am talking about AFTER someone hears the gospel message and has faith in Christ. Im not saying we should never preach the truth.

However we don't know that Peter taught every little aspect ABOUT baptism...in fact we don't even know he taught about baptism. He preached Jesus Christ. Peter also preached Jesus Christ on the Day of Pentecost. It is not until AFTER they are convinced that he tells them about being baptized BUT it is not some long drawn out bible study to discover every little facet of baptism and it's significance BEFORE they can be baptized. It was not necessary. What Peter said was enough and they obeyed.

[OneAccord]

Brother, we are chasing each other around the bush. I never said anything about having a Bible study (if you'll go back to my earlier posts). I said people should be instructed about baptism before they are baptized. I don't think they have to enroll in the Apostolic Bible College or take an exhaustive study. I said exactly what you are saying. That people should at least be informed on the very basics of baptism before they are baptized. I posted examples from the Bible where these converts entered into baptism only after they were instucted about baptism. Peters words at Pentecost were just that... instructions. No, he didn't pull out the charts and concordances, but he did instruct them to Repent, and be baptized, and recieve the Holy Ghost. That is instruction... and that is what I have been saying. Read the question put forth at the beginning of this thread. That explains the whole point I am making here. I don't think people who have just repented should be baptized without knowing a little something about it. I used the term "Bible Study" a little TIC there. I never mentioned "Bible Study" until after it was mentioned in Post #63. And it wasn't I who used it there! We do have a Young Converts Class and our pastor requires one to attend once before they are baptized. Is that a Scriptural mandate ? No, never said it was... but it sure works!

[Praxeas]

Brother, we are chasing each other around the bush. I never said anything about having a Bible study (if you'll go back to my earlier posts
yes I know....did you read my post where I said it seems we are in agreement? I think you are misunderstanding my point. Maybe you can go back to my earlier posts too? :heeheehee

[Bryan]

One of which was to submit to baptism...John didn't give them 10 lessons on why :heeheehee
No! John asked for fruits worthy of repentance before he would baptize those Pharisees!! :tease

[Praxeas]

No! John asked for fruits worthy of repentance before he would baptize those Pharisees!! :tease
Where was the 10 lessons on the significance of baptism?

[Bryan]

Where was the 10 lessons on the significance of baptism?Who said anything about 10 lessons. All he said was "...show me that you've repented.."

[stmatthew]

I agree that things should be done in proper order. But I sometimes wonder why we want to teach someone that does not have spiritual eye's to see into the kingdom. If we go ahead and bury the dead, and let them come forth resurrected in the holy ghost, they are then ready to understand what has taken place.

We don't but a microphone on a mothers womb and explain to the baby what is fixen to happen to them when they come out of the womb. We do not talk to dead folks and let them know that we are getting ready to bury them in the earth. Why spend time trying to teach someone something they cannot see with spiritual eyes. Why not wait until they are born again, and then they will be able to see it with spiritual eyes.

I can't believe I have just read what I have read here. I am glad that I understood why I was being baptized. I feel you rob believers of something very special by not making sure that they fully appreciate the full significance of baptism. I have had far too many people who have expressed that they wished they could be rebaptized once they heard me explain the full significance of it during a message, to not take the time to share with someone what baptism means.

How much teaching does it take to tell someone that water baptism is for remission of their sins??

I find no where where Peter preached a long extended service on water baptism on the day of Pentecost. He outlined the gospel, which is the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, and when the Jews there became convinced of their need, and asked Peter, "What must we do", he simply gave them the proper response to the gospel message he had just preached. "Repent, be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the holy ghost. For the promise (of the holy ghost) unto you......". I do not find where he extended his time talking about the theology of water baptism. But I do see where all that received his words were baptized. Do you have baptism was delayed until the candidate was taught water baptism theology?

Now having stated the bible example, I can also say that I am not against a quick study to let a believer know what baptism is all about. But I am against putting off baptism until another day when it is convenient, and giving place for the devil to discourage or sow discord into the picture.

Of course, I place a great importance on water baptism, because I see it as being part of the new birth, so I would be more importune in their being baptized immediately after repentance

[Praxeas]

Who said anything about 10 lessons. All he said was "...show me that you've repented.."
That's my point....wanna get back to the topic here berk? :killinme

[Bryan]

That's my point....wanna get back to the topic here berk? :killinme
Ya lost me, doc.

[Praxeas]

How much teaching does it take to tell someone that water baptism is for remission of their sins??

I find no where where Peter preached a long extended service on water baptism on the day of Pentecost. He outlined the gospel, which is the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, and when the Jews there became convinced of their need, and asked Peter, "What must we do", he simply gave them the proper response to the gospel message he had just preached. "Repent, be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the holy ghost. For the promise (of the holy ghost) unto you......". I do not find where he extended his time talking about the theology of water baptism. But I do see where all that received his words were baptized. Do you have baptism was delayed until the candidate was taught water baptism theology?

Now having stated the bible example, I can also say that I am not against a quick study to let a believer know what baptism is all about. But I am against putting off baptism until another day when it is convenient, and giving place for the devil to discourage or sow discord into the picture.

Of course, I place a great importance on water baptism, because I see it as being part of the new birth, so I would be more importune in their being baptized immediately after repentance
The thing is, there is so much more to water baptism than "it remits sins"...there is HOW....there is the symbology. There is typology. I don't think we should put off someone's baptism to do an indepth bible study. There is no record of people putting off baptism till a later time

[Praxeas]

Ya lost me, doc.
The topic is baptism, not repentance

[Bryan]

The topic is baptism, not repentance
oh, right!:bliss

[stmatthew]

The thing is, there is so much more to water baptism than "it remits sins"...there is HOW....there is the symbology. There is typology. I don't think we should put off someone's baptism to do an indepth bible study. There is no record of people putting off baptism till a later time

I agree that there is more to baptism. The point is, is the gospel and the faith involved in responding to the Gospel response enough to save?

Do I have to know that Naaman obediently dipped in water and was cleansed of Leprosy, and that this is a type or symbol of water baptism in the old testament before I get baptized?

Someone who believes that new birth is complete prior to the water - Spirit doctrine will have no problem putting off baptism, because it is not a life and death soul situation to them. But to us that believe this way, we do not want to put off the very things that saves.

[SDG]

I agree that there is more to baptism. The point is, is the gospel and the faith involved in responding to the Gospel response enough to save?

Do I have to know that Naaman obediently dipped in water and was cleansed of Leprosy, and that this is a type or symbol of water baptism in the old testament before I get baptized?

Someone who believes that new birth is complete prior to the water - Spirit doctrine will have no problem putting off baptism, because it is not a life and death soul situation to them. But to us that believe this way, we do not want to put off the very things that saves.

so much for Jesus saving ....

[RevDWW]

so much for Jesus saving ....

You make the craziest statements. Who said "He that believes and is baptized shall be saved." ? Wasn't that Jesus or am I mistaken?

[Felicity]

You make the craziest statements. Who said "He that believes and is baptized shall be saved." ? Wasn't that Jesus or am I mistaken?Jesus. Another scriptural reason for my belief that baptism is essential. NOT an option.

[Bryan]

Jesus. Another scriptural reason for my belief that baptism is essential. NOT an option.
:highfive

[stmatthew]

so much for Jesus saving ....

Danny boy, You are spreading false witness against me everytime you put words in my mouth like this statement. I do not like it. It is offensive to me, and to many others as well.

[RevDWW]

Jesus. Another scriptural reason for my belief that baptism is essential. NOT an option.

One thing that strikes me is, when Jesus went to be baptized by John in Jordan, John said he needed to be baptized of Jesus, but Jesus answered "Suffer it to be so to fulfill all righteousness". If baptism fulfilled all righteousness in Jesus, what would make me think that I don't need it? Especially when my righteousness is like a filthy rag.

[Steve Epley]

One thing that strikes me is, when Jesus went to be baptized by John in Jordan, John said he needed to be baptized of Jesus, but Jesus answered "Suffer it to be so to fulfill all righteousness". If baptism fulfilled all righteousness in Jesus, what would make me think that I don't need it? Especially when my righteousness is like a filthy rag.

Good thought!

How is this John put the Name in the water when Jesus was baptized and the Name has been in the water since!!!! If you get the name you must go into the water.

[Ronzo]

Jesus was fulfilling the commandment for the High Priest to be washed before taking office. (Exodus 29:4, 40:12)

That's what he meant when he said he was fulfilling all righteousness. He was assuming the role of High Priest of the new covenant.


After washing, the High Priest was also anointed.... notice the Holy Ghost descending upon him in the form of a dove immediately after Christ came up out of the water.

[Praxeas]

Jesus was fulfilling the commandment for the High Priest to be washed before taking office. (Exodus 29:4, 40:12)

That's what he meant when he said he was fulfilling all righteousness. He was assuming the role of High Priest of the new covenant.


After washing, the High Priest was also anointed.... notice the Holy Ghost descending upon him in the form of a dove immediately after Christ came up out of the water.
Right and had he been disobedient to that......He would not have been fulfilling all righteousness...