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samp
03-02-2007, 08:49 AM
Are there any Pentecostals who do not believe that speaking in tongues is the inititial physical evidence of the baptism in the Holy Spirit?

Digging4Truth
03-02-2007, 08:59 AM
I do believe that the word bears out that tongues is often a physical evidence of receiving the Holy Ghost.

If you don't mind me asking.

Do you feel that the word demonstrates that tongues is absolutely the physical evidence required to be seen before it is known that one has received the Holy Ghost?

Steve Epley
03-02-2007, 09:02 AM
Are there any Pentecostals who do not believe that speaking in tongues is the inititial physical evidence of the baptism in the Holy Spirit?

I do not think the ACOP believes in the initial evidence?????????? The Bethel folks from Evansville started teaching this in the early 50's it led them away from the Pentecostal movement.

Nahum
03-02-2007, 09:23 AM
There are a lot of folks that believe that.

rgcraig
03-02-2007, 09:38 AM
I do believe that the word bears out that tongues is often a physical evidence of receiving the Holy Ghost.If you don't mind me asking.

Do you feel that the word demonstrates that tongues is absolutely the physical evidence required to be seen before it is known that one has received the Holy Ghost?

This is how I see it - which would mean the Holy Ghost can dwell in you before you speak in tongues. Tongues is just the evidence.

samp
03-02-2007, 09:42 AM
I do not think the ACOP believes in the initial evidence?????????? The Bethel folks from Evansville started teaching this in the early 50's it led them away from the Pentecostal movement.

Who are the ACOP?

Digging4truth, my goal isn't to discuss whether there is or isn't an initial physical evidence. I'm just wondering if there is a significant portion of pentecostals who do not embrace the doctrine.

crakjak
03-02-2007, 09:59 AM
Are there any Pentecostals who do not believe that speaking in tongues is the inititial physical evidence of the baptism in the Holy Spirit?

Is there any evidence that scripture places the same importance on "initial physical evidence" as do many Pentecostals? I have evidenced folks who spoke in tongues experience immediate and dramatic strength for a changed life.

I have evidenced the same drama in the lives of folks who "accepted" Jesus and immediately had startling strength for a changed life.

And have also observed both without any immediate change, at least observable.

So I really don't focus on "initial evidence", present the Word and let the Holy Spirit do what He does better than I could ever do, lead and guide into all truth. If they come to Jesus in faith they are in a great position.

An individual can be perfect at any stage in the process of moving into the "image of Jesus". You can yell at a plant, "Grow, you gotta GROW! But the plant will only grow as it is watered and nurtured and given lotsa time.

Steve Epley
03-02-2007, 10:01 AM
Who are the ACOP?

Digging4truth, my goal isn't to discuss whether there is or isn't an initial physical evidence. I'm just wondering if there is a significant portion of pentecostals who do not embrace the doctrine.

Apostolic Church of Pentecost, Small's group from Canada. TB is a member of this group. I do not think TB believes this however?

samp
03-02-2007, 10:39 AM
Is TB someone on this forum?

Does anyone know any other Pentecostals who do not embrace the doctrine of initial physical evidence?

MrsMcD
03-02-2007, 10:41 AM
I was taught that you do not have the holy spirit unless you have spoken in tongues. Anybody else?

Felicity
03-02-2007, 10:43 AM
ACOP's Official Statement of Faith

We believe in:

1) The verbal inspiration of the Holy Scriptures.

2) The eternal existence of one true God who is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

3) The Saviour of men, the Lord Jesus Christ, conceived of the Holy Spirit, born
of the Virgin Mary, very God and very man.

4) The creation, test and fall of man, as recorded in Genesis; His total spiritual
depravity and inability to attain to divine righteousness.

5) The Gospel of the Grace of God, how that Christ died for our sins, was buried,
and rose again the third day for our justification.

6) The salvation of sinners by Grace, through faith alone in the perfect and sufficient
work of Christ on our behalf upon the cross of Calvary excluding all human merit.

7) Water baptism of believers by immersion in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

8) The baptism of the Holy Spirit as an experience subsequent to salvation, with the
scriptural evidence, namely, speaking in tongues.

9) The gifts of the Spirit as enumerated in I Corinthians, being exercised and practiced
as manifest in the early Church.

10) The Lord’s Supper, as a memorial for believers.

11) The healing of the body by Divine Power, or Divine Healing in many aspects as
manifested in the early Church.

12) The eternal life of the believer and the eternal punishment of the unbeliever.

13) The Spirit-filled life of separation from the world, and the perfecting of holiness
in the fear of God as an expression of Christian faith.

14) The reality and personality of Satan and demons.

15) The reality and ministry of holy angels.

16) The personal return of the Lord Jesus Christ for His Church.

17) In the sanctity of marriage, as a life long exclusive commitment between one man
and one woman.

Digging4Truth
03-02-2007, 10:47 AM
I was taught that you do not have the holy spirit unless you have spoken in tongues. Anybody else?

Yes... I was taught that.

mizpeh
03-02-2007, 10:47 AM
Is TB someone on this forum?

Does anyone know any other Pentecostals who do not embrace the doctrine of initial physical evidence?


Most Trinitarian pentecostals.

mizpeh
03-02-2007, 10:50 AM
ACOP's Official Statement of Faith

We believe in:

8) The baptism of the Holy Spirit as an experience subsequent to salvation, with the
scriptural evidence, namely, speaking in tongues.



Felicity,

If the baptism of the Holy Spirit is evidenced by speaking in tongues what do you call the type of infilling a person would have when they have the Spirit of Christ in them at initial faith and repentance? bedauce without the Spirit of Christ we do not belong to him. So if the baptism of the Holy Spirit is subsequent to salvation then somehow one must have the Spirit prior, I'm just not sure there is scripture to prove that.

samp
03-02-2007, 10:50 AM
mizpeh, the Assemblies of God believe in tongues as the initial physical evidence.

Felicity
03-02-2007, 10:56 AM
Felicity,

If the baptism of the Holy Spirit is evidenced by speaking in tongues what do you call the type of infilling a person would have when they have the Spirit of Christ in them at initial faith and repentance? I explain this by the fact there are different operations of the Spirit of God. One Spirit but different operations of the Spirit. He moves in and on us in a whole number of ways and not all at the same time..

He draws us.

He convicts us.

He forgives us.

He regenerates us.

He fills us.

He heals us

He chastises us.

He anoints us.

He calls us.

He leads us.

He teaches us.

He molds us.

He quickens us.

He comforts us

Encourages us.

Strengthens us.

Baptizes us.

Etc.

Chan
03-02-2007, 10:59 AM
I do believe that the word bears out that tongues is often a physical evidence of receiving the Holy Ghost.

If you don't mind me asking.

Do you feel that the word demonstrates that tongues is absolutely the physical evidence required to be seen before it is known that one has received the Holy Ghost?Tongues as "the initial physical evidence" is nothing more than an assumption being made based mainly on the event in Acts 2. It is not an actual doctrine in scripture. While I do believe that tongues are the initial evidence, it is nothing more than an assumption, i.e. that just because this appears to have been what happened in Acts 2 that this is to be considered the norm. THERE IS NO PASSAGE OF SCRIPTURE THAT SAYS TONGUES IS THE INITIAL EVIDENCE OF THE BAPTISM OF THE HOLY GHOST.

Chan
03-02-2007, 11:01 AM
Most Trinitarian pentecostals.
And your evidence of this is what?

mizpeh
03-02-2007, 11:03 AM
mizpeh, the Assemblies of God believe in tongues as the initial physical evidence.

I had read that in their articles of faith, but is that a different experience from being filled with the Spirit?
I'm in a discussion with someone by email that is questioning this very thing and he claims the infilling is different from baptism and that the disciples received the Spirit when Christ breathed on them after his resurrection.

I disagree with both statements and have shown why by scripture. He finds it difficult to believe someone must speak in tongues as the definite sign of receiving the Holy Ghost for a few reasons: the scriptures that teach we are saved by grace through faith in Rom and Gal and there are people who seek and seek and never seemed to speak in tongues, and this teaching is not found in the epistles.

What do you think?

Digging4Truth
03-02-2007, 11:03 AM
Tongues as "the initial physical evidence" is nothing more than an assumption being made based mainly on the event in Acts 2. It is not an actual doctrine in scripture. While I do believe that tongues are the initial evidence, it is nothing more than an assumption, i.e. that just because this appears to have been what happened in Acts 2 that this is to be considered the norm. THERE IS NO PASSAGE OF SCRIPTURE THAT SAYS TONGUES IS THE INITIAL EVIDENCE OF THE BAPTISM OF THE HOLY GHOST.

This is exactly the way I feel.

mizpeh
03-02-2007, 11:04 AM
And your evidence of this is what?

Everyone Trintarian I've spoken to on CARM for one who don't think tongues are of the devil.

Felicity
03-02-2007, 11:04 AM
What is CARM?

Chan
03-02-2007, 11:15 AM
Everyone Trintarian I've spoken to on CARM for one who don't think tongues are of the devil.Just so we're clear, there are trinitarian Pentecostals on this CARM thing and the ones with whom you've communicated do not believe tongues are the initial evidence? Are there trinitarians on CARM that are not Pentecostal, e.g. Southern Baptists (who often believe tongues are of the devil because they believe the gifts of the Spirit ceased with the death of the Apostles)?

samp
03-02-2007, 11:18 AM
I had read that in their articles of faith, but is that a different experience from being filled with the Spirit?
I'm in a discussion with someone by email that is questioning this very thing and he claims the infilling is different from baptism and that the disciples received the Spirit when Christ breathed on them after his resurrection.


Yes, I think you're right. The Assemblies of God distinguish between being filled with the Holy Spirit and "baptized in the Holy Spirit." It is the baptism in the Holy Spirit which must be immediately followed by tongues.

Chan
03-02-2007, 11:18 AM
I had read that in their articles of faith, but is that a different experience from being filled with the Spirit?
I'm in a discussion with someone by email that is questioning this very thing and he claims the infilling is different from baptism and that the disciples received the Spirit when Christ breathed on them after his resurrection.

I disagree with both statements and have shown why by scripture. He finds it difficult to believe someone must speak in tongues as the definite sign of receiving the Holy Ghost for a few reasons: the scriptures that teach we are saved by grace through faith in Rom and Gal and there are people who seek and seek and never seemed to speak in tongues, and this teaching is not found in the epistles.

What do you think?The AOG and many other trinitarian Pentecostal organizations teach that there is a second work of grace they call the baptism of the Holy Spirit. It occurs subsequent to salvation and the "initial evidence" of it is speaking in tongues. It is believed to be the promise given in Acts 1:8.

mizpeh
03-02-2007, 11:30 AM
What is CARM?

It's a Trinitarian Evangelical Apologetics site that has a huge discussion board. One forum is esp for Oneness Pentecostals.

http://www.carm.org/

mizpeh
03-02-2007, 11:31 AM
Just so we're clear, there are trinitarian Pentecostals on this CARM thing and the ones with whom you've communicated do not believe tongues are the initial evidence? Are there trinitarians on CARM that are not Pentecostal, e.g. Southern Baptists (who often believe tongues are of the devil because they believe the gifts of the Spirit ceased with the death of the Apostles)?

yes, to both of your questions. I have been told by a couple Trinitarians there that I ( all OP's) have a spirit of antichrist because I don't believe in an eternal Son. Then they quote verses from 1John.

samp
03-02-2007, 11:51 AM
I have been told by a couple Trinitarians there that I ( all OP's) have a spirit of antichrist because I don't believe in an eternal Son.

What does that mean, eternal son? What do you believe that they feel is wrong?

Sam
03-02-2007, 01:12 PM
"filled" with the Spirit is a pretty broad term.

Folks in the Old Testament were "filled" with the Spirit or "full" of the Spirit like Joshua (Deut 34:9) and Gideon (Judges 6:34) and Bezalel (Ex 31:1-5).
John the Baptist was "filled" with the Holy Spirit before birth (Luke 1:15, 41-44) and so were his parents Elizabeth and Zechariah (Luke 1:41, 67). The Apostle Peter said that the Spirit of Christ was in the OT prophets (1 Peter 1:11).

Jesus told His disciples to wait in Jerusalem until they were baptized in the Spirit. This Spirit baptism is similar to water baptism i.e. an immersion, saturation, overwhelming, soaking, etc). On the Day of Pentecost it says they were filled (Acts 2:4). Then later it is said that Peter was "filled" while addressing the Jewish leaders (Acts 4:8) and still later a whole group of them were filled as they prayed (Acts 4:31). Filling can and does happen many times. In Ephesians 1:13 it says the Ephesian believers had been sealed with the Holy Spirit but Paul exhorts them to "be filled" or "keep getting filled" or "be ongoingly filled" with the Spirit in Eph 5:18.

As someone else has pointed out there are many operations of the Holy Spirit on us like
regeneration or birthing
filling and refilling
baptism in the Spirit
etc

Many folks have been saved/regenerated (born of the Spirit) before they were baptized in the Spirit.

Sam
03-02-2007, 01:22 PM
A journey through the Book of Acts shows several times people were
filled with the Spirit
received the Spirit
Spirit came upon them
Spirit fell upon them
baptized in the Spirit.

Some times speaking with tongues is mentioned and some times not.
Because speaking with tongues is mentioned some times, some folks have deduced that tongues should happen every time and if a person has not spoken in tongues he has not been baptized in the Spirit.

Some folks believe that when the Spirit comes upon, or overwhelms, or baptizes/immrses a person, the gifts are released and speaking with tongues and/or prophecy will "follow," perhaps immediately or maybe later. Some use Mark 16 for this where it says that tongues is one of the signs that will "follow" believers.

Most of us who consider ourselves Apostolic/Pentecostal/Charismatic believe that speaking or praying with tongues indicates that a person has been baptized in the Spirit. I don't know how large a percentage that would be.

Sam
03-02-2007, 01:31 PM
Someone has described some of the different terms like this

Filled is a quantitative term to indicate the person has received as much Holy Spirit as it can contain

baptism means that the recipient has been immersed, saturated, overwhelmed in the Holy Spirit

gift refers to the nature of the transaction, it is a gift, not a reward

receive refers to making room for or formally accepting

Chan
03-02-2007, 01:36 PM
yes, to both of your questions. I have been told by a couple Trinitarians there that I ( all OP's) have a spirit of antichrist because I don't believe in an eternal Son. Then they quote verses from 1John.I'm a trinitarian and I don't believe in the doctrine of an eternal Son. The Bible makes it clear that the Son was begotten. That, in itself, necessitates a beginning. Thus, "eternally begotten" in the corrupted (Roman Catholic and Protestant) version of the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed is an oxymoron. Jesus' divinity is eternal because it is homoousion - the same substance - with the Father; but His status as God's "only begotten Son" (John 3:16) is not. For that matter, God's fatherhood (His status as the Father) is not eternal because He was not a father until He fathered (whether figuratively as with the angels or the creation of humans, whether literally as in the begetting of Jesus or whether by adoption as in the adoption of the Christian).

Felicity
03-02-2007, 02:33 PM
Someone has described some of the different terms like this

Filled is a quantitative term to indicate the person has received as much Holy Spirit as it can contain

baptism means that the recipient has been immersed, saturated, overwhelmed in the Holy Spirit

gift refers to the nature of the transaction, it is a gift, not a reward

receive refers to making room for or formally acceptingThis is very good Sam.

freeatlast
03-02-2007, 03:00 PM
where does the scripture tell us that we should seek "the baptism of the holy ghost"

The baptism of the Holy Ghost fullfilled Joels prophecy in 2:28 that God will pour out his spirit on ALL flesh.

God's spirit was poured out on pentecost, the earth and all humanity is what was batized, making God's indwelling spirit avaiable to all who would, as Peter proclaimed in Act's 2:21, call upon the name of the Lord.

Initial evidence is not in the bible.. speaking in tongues is.

On two ocassions it was an evidence to the UNBELIEVING Jews who did not think anybody but them could be saved.

Because we have seen these two inagural events in church history with the Samaritans and the Gentiles being addded to the church and them speaking in tongues, it is a far stretch to say that ALL that recieve the spirit will always speak in tongues.

It's a doctrine built on many false assumptions.

Now, I thank God that I speak in tongues, but i thank God even more that I know that my salvation is in no way dependant on my speaking in tongues.

Chan
03-02-2007, 04:25 PM
where does the scripture tell us that we should seek "the baptism of the holy ghost"

The baptism of the Holy Ghost fullfilled Joels prophecy in 2:28 that God will pour out his spirit on ALL flesh.

God's spirit was poured out on pentecost, the earth and all humanity is what was batized, making God's indwelling spirit avaiable to all who would, as Peter proclaimed in Act's 2:21, call upon the name of the Lord.

Initial evidence is not in the bible.. speaking in tongues is.

On two ocassions it was an evidence to the UNBELIEVING Jews who did not think anybody but them could be saved.

Because we have seen these two inagural events in church history with the Samaritans and the Gentiles being addded to the church and them speaking in tongues, it is a far stretch to say that ALL that recieve the spirit will always speak in tongues.

It's a doctrine built on many false assumptions.

Now, I thank God that I speak in tongues, but i thank God even more that I know that my salvation is in no way dependant on my speaking in tongues.
Tongues as "the initial physical evidence" is nothing more than an assumption being made based mainly on the event in Acts 2. It is not an actual doctrine in scripture. While I do believe that tongues are the initial evidence, it is nothing more than an assumption, i.e. that just because this appears to have been what happened in Acts 2 that this is to be considered the norm.

Assumptions, yes. Not necessarily false assumptions, though.

freeatlast
03-02-2007, 04:29 PM
Tongues as "the initial physical evidence" is nothing more than an assumption being made based mainly on the event in Acts 2. It is not an actual doctrine in scripture. While I do believe that tongues are the initial evidence, it is nothing more than an assumption, i.e. that just because this appears to have been what happened in Acts 2 that this is to be considered the norm.

Assumptions, yes. Not necessarily false assumptions, though.

When the assumption is that ALL will aLWAYS speak in tongues as the Samaritans and the household of Cornelius did, the ASSUPTION is indeed a false one.

Falla39
03-02-2007, 04:57 PM
I was taught that you do not have the holy spirit unless you have spoken in tongues. Anybody else?

Just some thoughts:

Conception means a seed has been planted and under the proper

or right conditions, in time there will be a birth. The mother should

be careful to nurture this seed by taking proper care of herself and

this "burden" that is growing inside her. In the fulness of time there

will be "labour pains" and as this progresses, travail (groanings) and

perhaps weeping. About the time the mother feels she cannot bear

anymore pain, suddenly there is a bursting forth of water and blood,

and sweet deliverance. What a refreshing!! But wait, the mother waits!!

My baby is out but is it alive! I want to hear that cry!!! Did something

go wrong in my carrying my child. Is it still-born. Did it not form properly.

Please let me hear my baby's cry so I will know it is ALIVE!!!! Then a

cry bursts forth and the mother knows her child has been born ALIVE!!!

She has heard a certain sound, a SIGN which tells her her baby is ALIVE!

Now, in the spiritual, "seed" is planted by faith in the Word of God. It is

conceived and nurtured and as this "burden" is carried, in the fulness of

time, there should be a point of travail, perhaps weeping, groanings and

in time there is sweet deliverance! As the "mother, church" that is giving

birth to this "child" realizes this child has been delivered, she listens for a

certain "sound". She wants to know that this is a LIVE birth. Suddenly there

is a sound that lets her (church, mother) know that it is indeed a LIVE

birth. No, it is not the cry of a natural birth, but it is the cry of a spiritual,

because that cry is the language of the Spirit!! The mother (church) knows

by that certain sound that this "child" has been "born again" because this

"man-child" is speaking their Father's language!!

Jesus said in John 3, that except a MAN be born of water and

and of the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. Is not the

water (water baptism) and the Spirit (spirit baptism). And would he not

began to speak the language of the Spirit when he enters into the

kingdom of God (Spirit). God is a Spirit! If you come into this world,

you would expect to speak the language of that family or father!

These thoughts are not to offend or be in agreement or disagreement

with anyone. They are for sincere dialogue.

Blessings,

Falla39

mizpeh
03-02-2007, 07:39 PM
When the assumption is that ALL will aLWAYS speak in tongues as the Samaritans and the household of Cornelius did, the ASSUPTION is indeed a false one.

I don't think the Bible states that the Samaritans spoke in tongues when the apostles laid hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit. But it was obvious that something happened because Simon understood they were filled with the Spirit by some outward manifestation.

How do you explain away the sound that is heard in John 3.

Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

and this verse in 1 Corinthians 14 and Isaiah 28?

Isaiah 28:11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

or the most compelling verses found in Acts 10 and 11:

44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?

15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.
17 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

mizpeh
03-02-2007, 07:44 PM
where does the scripture tell us that we should seek "the baptism of the holy ghost"


14 Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
15 Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)
17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,

The Samaritans sent for the apostles to pray for them to receive the Holy Ghost. They were evidently seeking God for the gift.

mizpeh
03-02-2007, 07:49 PM
Many folks have been saved/regenerated (born of the Spirit) before they were baptized in the Spirit.

Please, where can I find this teaching in the Bible?

mizpeh
03-02-2007, 07:52 PM
What does that mean, eternal son? What do you believe that they feel is wrong?

Nicene Creed
(fourth century)

We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one Being with the Father. Through him all things were made. For us and for our salvation he came down from heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary, and was made man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered death and was buried. On the third day he rose again in accordance with the Scriptures; he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father. With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets. We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

Trinitarians believe the Son of God existed as the Son (second person of the Trinity) prior to his birth in Bethlehem. OP's believe Jesus is the Son of God because He was conceived of the Holy Spirit in the womb of the virgin, Mary. And the Holy Spirit is God not an agent of God. Luke 1:35.

Sam
03-02-2007, 07:59 PM
I don't think the Bible states that the Samaritans spoke in tongues when the apostles laid hands on them and they received the Holy Spirit. But it was obvious that something happened because Simon understood they were filled with the Spirit by some outward manifestation.
...


Simon had seen "...miracles... unclean spirits crying with a loud voice came out of many that were demonized...many taken with palsies and that were lame were healed...there was great joy..." Acts 8:6-8. Simon had seen all that when those folks were saved, healed, delivered but he didn't offer money for it. Then he "saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given" (Acts 8:18) and whatever he saw, he wanted that power more than he had wanted power to perform the acts he had seen before. When he offered money to buy the gift of ministering the Holy Ghost Baptism, Peter said, "To hell with your money! and you along with it, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money. You have no part or share in this utterance or speaking" (Acts 8:20-21).

Sam
03-02-2007, 08:43 PM
Please, where can I find this teaching in the Bible?

I think most folks believe that the followers of Jesus were saved. He appeared to over 500 believers after his resurrection. Paul still referred to them as "brethren" twenty-five years later when he wrote the letters we call 1 Corinthians in our NT (1 Cor 15:6). Jesus commissioned His disciples to preach the Gospel but told them to wait in Jerusalem until they were empowered by the Holy Spirit. He compared this empowerment to a baptism similar to the water baptism they had experienced either under John or under His ministry. About 120 of them were filled with or baptized in the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:4).

On the day of Pentecost in response to Peter's preaching about 3000 folks received Jesus and were baptized (Acts 2:41).

In Acts 8 the folks in Samaria believed the message of Philip and were baptized in water. Later the Apostles John and Peter laid hands on them and ministered the HGB (Holy Ghost Baptism) to these believers.

In Acts 8, Philip preached to an Ethiopian Eunuch who then asked to be baptised in water. Philip made sure that he was a believer before he agreed to baptize him. He said, "If you believe with all your heart you may (be baptized)" The Eunuch said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God." The record continues by saying that he gave orders that the chariot stop, then both Philip and the Eunuch went down into the water "and he baptized him, and when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord fell upon the Eunuch and the angel of the Lord snatched Philip away." Acts 8:35-39.

In Acts 9, Saul was on his way to Damascus to persecute the saints. Jesus appeared to him and Saul hit the ground. When he asked, Who are you, Lord?" the Lord (YHWH) said "I am Jesus." Saul believed in the resurrection and confessed Him as Lord. He said, "Lord, what do you want me to do?" Three days after this conversion experience, a disciple name Ananias came in to him and said, "Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus who appeared to you on the road as you came has sent me that you might receive your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit." Acts 9:1-18. Afterwards, Saul was baptized in water.

In Acts 10 (approximately A.D. 38) we read about Peter preaching to several Gentiles. As Peter preached the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus, those Gentiles believed and as a result of their belief/conversion the Holy Spirit fell upon them (Acts 10:37-48). Peter then commanded water baptism. The experience that happened to Cornelius and his household is referred to by Peter as "the same gift as He (God) gave us" (Acts 11:17) and also as a baptism in the Spirit (Acts 11:16). The Jewish brethren rejoiced because the Gentiles had received life through their repentance (Acts 11:18) . About 11 years later, Peter told about that incident and said that God had purified the hearts of the Gentiles by faith (Acts 15:8-9).

In Acts 19:1-6, approximately 23 years after Pentecost Paul found disciples in Ephesus who did not know about the NT message. He preached Jesus to them. As a result of their conversion/salvation/regeneration experience they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then Paul laid his hands on them and ministered the HGB. It is recorded that those 12 or so folks spoke with tongues and prophesied when the Holy Spirit came upon them. We don't know if all of them spoke with tongues and prophesied or if some spoke with tongues and some prophesied.

These are the standard places where we Apostolics/Pentecostals/Charismatics go to illustrate the HGB. In each case it seems (at least to me) that there is a work of God in the hearts of the people (some would call it salvation or regeneration or conversion) before the HGB experience. There are other cases such as in Philippi (approximately summer of A.D. 50) where it is recorded that God opened a person's heart and she and her household were baptized (Acts 16:14-15) and where the jailer and his family believe (Acts 16:31-34) and were baptized. There is no record as to whether these folks later received the HGB or whether they did not. In Corinth (fall of A.D. 51) it says that many of them heard, believed, and were baptized (Acts 18:8, 1 Cor 1:11-17).

I'm not saying there is no such experience as a baptism in the Holy Spirit, nor am I saying that speaking with tongues is not associated with that HGB. All I'm saying is that (in my opinion) there was a conversion or salvation experience and it was followed by a water baptism experience and a HGB experience. (and thusly they fulfilled Acts 2;38)

mizpeh
03-03-2007, 05:07 AM
I explain this by the fact there are different operations of the Spirit of God. One Spirit but different operations of the Spirit. He moves in and on us in a whole number of ways and not all at the same time..

He draws us.

He convicts us.

He forgives us.

He regenerates us.

He fills us.

He heals us

He chastises us.

He anoints us.

He calls us.

He leads us.

He teaches us.

He molds us.

He quickens us.

He comforts us

Encourages us.

Strengthens us.

Baptizes us.

Etc.


Thanks Felicity, for sure the Spirit of God does all these things, but I'm don't think this answered my question.

mizpeh
03-03-2007, 05:11 AM
"To hell with your money! and you along with it, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money. You have no part or share in this utterance or speaking" (Acts 8:20-21).

Sam, what translation are you using? I had to look in the greek to find "logos" for the word "matter" which is used in the KJV. Thanks for bringing that out. :ty

Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.

Falla39
03-03-2007, 08:16 AM
When the assumption is that ALL will aLWAYS speak in tongues as the Samaritans and the household of Cornelius did, the ASSUPTION is indeed a false one.

Bro. FreeAtLast,

Do all natural babies cry at birth! What does that cry tell you!

This baby is alive. It is not still-born! Babies may be born but that

doesn't mean they are alive. If there is no cry, no certain sound,

that silence is speaking. The Spirit giveth LIFE!! The sound of LIFE!

This is just some thoughts from where I stand!:bliss :bliss :bliss

Blessings, Brother, In Jesus Name! :highfive

Falla39

freeatlast
03-03-2007, 09:10 AM
Bro. FreeAtLast,

Do all natural babies cry at birth! What does that cry tell you!

This baby is alive. It is not still-born! Babies may be born but that

doesn't mean they are alive. If there is no cry, no certain sound,

that silence is speaking. The Spirit giveth LIFE!! The sound of LIFE!

This is just some thoughts from where I stand!:bliss :bliss :bliss

Blessings, Brother, In Jesus Name! :highfive

Falla39

Nice analogy Sis. Falla...but nice analogies do not a doctrine make.

Felicity
03-03-2007, 09:34 AM
Thanks Felicity, for sure the Spirit of God does all these things, but I'm don't think this answered my question. Yes, He does. You apparently edited your question after I answered the original one.

Falla39
03-03-2007, 09:55 AM
Nice analogy Sis. Falla...but nice analogies do not a doctrine make.

Bro, FreeAtLast,

And what doctrine (teaching) would that be?

Blessings,

Falla39

freeatlast
03-03-2007, 11:08 AM
Bro, FreeAtLast,

And what doctrine (teaching) would that be?

Blessings,

Falla39

The "doctrine" that all but us tongue talkers are lost.

That if you have not talked the talk, you have not begun the walk.

Rhoni
03-03-2007, 12:49 PM
Just some thoughts:

Conception means a seed has been planted and under the proper

or right conditions, in time there will be a birth. The mother should

be careful to nurture this seed by taking proper care of herself and

this "burden" that is growing inside her. In the fulness of time there

will be "labour pains" and as this progresses, travail (groanings) and

perhaps weeping. About the time the mother feels she cannot bear

anymore pain, suddenly there is a bursting forth of water and blood,

and sweet deliverance. What a refreshing!! But wait, the mother waits!!

My baby is out but is it alive! I want to hear that cry!!! Did something

go wrong in my carrying my child. Is it still-born. Did it not form properly.

Please let me hear my baby's cry so I will know it is ALIVE!!!! Then a

cry bursts forth and the mother knows her child has been born ALIVE!!!

She has heard a certain sound, a SIGN which tells her her baby is ALIVE!

Now, in the spiritual, "seed" is planted by faith in the Word of God. It is

conceived and nurtured and as this "burden" is carried, in the fulness of

time, there should be a point of travail, perhaps weeping, groanings and

in time there is sweet deliverance! As the "mother, church" that is giving

birth to this "child" realizes this child has been delivered, she listens for a

certain "sound". She wants to know that this is a LIVE birth. Suddenly there

is a sound that lets her (church, mother) know that it is indeed a LIVE

birth. No, it is not the cry of a natural birth, but it is the cry of a spiritual,

because that cry is the language of the Spirit!! The mother (church) knows

by that certain sound that this "child" has been "born again" because this

"man-child" is speaking their Father's language!!

Jesus said in John 3, that except a MAN be born of water and

and of the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. Is not the

water (water baptism) and the Spirit (spirit baptism). And would he not

began to speak the language of the Spirit when he enters into the

kingdom of God (Spirit). God is a Spirit! If you come into this world,

you would expect to speak the language of that family or father!

These thoughts are not to offend or be in agreement or disagreement

with anyone. They are for sincere dialogue.

Blessings,

Falla39

Awesome analogy!:ty I've never heard it explained better!:highfive

Blessings, Rhoni

SDG
03-03-2007, 12:53 PM
You guys ... Freeatlast and Rhoni ... really catch on quick.

Falla39
03-03-2007, 01:14 PM
You guys ... Freeatlast and Rhoni ... really catch on quick.

Thank you,

Blessings to all my brothers and sisters,

Falla39

mizpeh
03-03-2007, 01:43 PM
Someone has described some of the different terms like this

Filled is a quantitative term to indicate the person has received as much Holy Spirit as it can contain

baptism means that the recipient has been immersed, saturated, overwhelmed in the Holy Spirit

gift refers to the nature of the transaction, it is a gift, not a reward

receive refers to making room for or formally accepting

Sam, thank you for these definitions. All of these terms, received, filled, baptism, gift are scripturally used to describe the outpouring of God's Spirit upon the disciples on the day of Pentecost. They describe exactly the same experience.

mizpeh
03-03-2007, 08:39 PM
I think most folks believe that the followers of Jesus were saved. He appeared to over 500 believers after his resurrection. Paul still referred to them as "brethren" twenty-five years later when he wrote the letters we call 1 Corinthians in our NT (1 Cor 15:6). Jesus commissioned His disciples to preach the Gospel but told them to wait in Jerusalem until they were empowered by the Holy Spirit. He compared this empowerment to a baptism similar to the water baptism they had experienced either under John or under His ministry. About 120 of them were filled with or baptized in the Holy Spirit (Acts 2:4).

Sam, I appreciate your response. I wouldn't say the disciples were saved according to the new birth prior to Christ being taken up for a couple of reasons.

1)They did not have the Spirit of God within them. Joh 14:16-17, Joh 7:39, Ac 1:4, Ro 8:9, Joh 3:5 Why would the disciples need further power if the Spirit of God was within them already by faith?

2)Paul calling the believers brethren in Corinthians is not a surprise if we assume they were all born again of the water and the Spirit. The question is what does it mean to be born again?

3)As for anyone who was baptized under John's baptism, I would think they were rebaptized just as in Acts 19.

On the day of Pentecost in response to Peter's preaching about 3000 folks received Jesus and were baptized (Acts 2:41).

In Acts 8 the folks in Samaria believed the message of Philip and were baptized in water. Later the Apostles John and Peter laid hands on them and ministered the HGB (Holy Ghost Baptism) to these believers.

In Acts 8, Philip preached to an Ethiopian Eunuch who then asked to be baptised in water. Philip made sure that he was a believer before he agreed to baptize him. He said, "If you believe with all your heart you may (be baptized)" The Eunuch said, "I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God." The record continues by saying that he gave orders that the chariot stop, then both Philip and the Eunuch went down into the water "and he baptized him, and when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord fell upon the Eunuch and the angel of the Lord snatched Philip away." Acts 8:35-39.

37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.

Sam, what translation are you reading from? Where does it say the Spirit of the Lord fell upon the Eunuch?

In Acts 9, Saul was on his way to Damascus to persecute the saints. Jesus appeared to him and Saul hit the ground. When he asked, Who are you, Lord?" the Lord (YHWH) said "I am Jesus." Saul believed in the resurrection and confessed Him as Lord. He said, "Lord, what do you want me to do?" Three days after this conversion experience, a disciple name Ananias came in to him and said, "Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus who appeared to you on the road as you came has sent me that you might receive your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit." Acts 9:1-18. Afterwards, Saul was baptized in water.

I agree with you that Paul believed and confessed Jesus Christ on the Damascus road, but he didn't receive the Spirit at that time and without being born of the Spirit or having the Spirit of Christ in us, we are none of His. Without drinking of that one Spirit we aren't part of the body of Christ, His church. Saul waited 3 days to receive the Spirit and be baptized in water to have his sins washed away.Ac 22:16

In Acts 10 (approximately A.D. 38) we read about Peter preaching to several Gentiles. As Peter preached the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus, those Gentiles believed and as a result of their belief/conversion the Holy Spirit fell upon them (Acts 10:37-48). Peter then commanded water baptism. The experience that happened to Cornelius and his household is referred to by Peter as "the same gift as He (God) gave us" (Acts 11:17) and also as a baptism in the Spirit (Acts 11:16). The Jewish brethren rejoiced because the Gentiles had received life through their repentance (Acts 11:18) . About 11 years later, Peter told about that incident and said that God had purified the hearts of the Gentiles by faith (Acts 15:8-9).

The Jews with Peter knew Cornelius and His household were filled or baptized with the Spirit because they heard them speak in tongues as the apostles did on the day of Pentecost. If they had not spoken in tongues, Peter would never have known the Gentiles were filled with the Spirit. Tongues is a sign and a sound given by God when He fills someone with his Spirit.

Sam, the verse "And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith" has me stumped. If our sins are remitted/forgiven and washed away by the blood of the lamb 1Jo 1:7, Re 1:5, Tit 3:5, 1Pe 1:22, Heb 9:22, Acts 2:38 then how does faith purify our hearts? I would think it would be faith and the blood or faith in the blood purified their hearts, but it doesn't say either of those things. Is purifying the heart different from the washing/ cleansing of sin we experience when we call on the name of the Lord in water baptism?

In Acts 19:1-6, approximately 23 years after Pentecost Paul found disciples in Ephesus who did not know about the NT message. He preached Jesus to them. As a result of their conversion/salvation/regeneration experience they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then Paul laid his hands on them and ministered the HGB. It is recorded that those 12 or so folks spoke with tongues and prophesied when the Holy Spirit came upon them. We don't know if all of them spoke with tongues and prophesied or if some spoke with tongues and some prophesied.

I agree they were converted, but saved and regenerated, not so sure. How could they be saved and regenerated without the Spirit of God in them which comes through Spirit baptism?

These are the standard places where we Apostolics/Pentecostals/Charismatics go to illustrate the HGB. In each case it seems (at least to me) that there is a work of God in the hearts of the people (some would call it salvation or regeneration or conversion) before the HGB experience. There are other cases such as in Philippi (approximately summer of A.D. 50) where it is recorded that God opened a person's heart and she and her household were baptized (Acts 16:14-15) and where the jailer and his family believe (Acts 16:31-34) and were baptized. There is no record as to whether these folks later received the HGB or whether they did not. In Corinth (fall of A.D. 51) it says that many of them heard, believed, and were baptized (Acts 18:8, 1 Cor 1:11-17).

I'm not saying there is no such experience as a baptism in the Holy Spirit, nor am I saying that speaking with tongues is not associated with that HGB. All I'm saying is that (in my opinion) there was a conversion or salvation experience and it was followed by a water baptism experience and a HGB experience. (and thusly they fulfilled Acts 2;38)

I respectfully disagree with your opinion. To be saved, a person must be indwelled with the Spirit of God. For me to believe as you do, I would need someone to show me in the word of God that a believer receives the Holy Ghost when they believe without any visible or audible sign. Going through the conversions, you have not proved this. And though some conversion examples in Acts only mention faith and water baptism, you cannot exclude or include that that person has the Spirit if the scripture was silent.

Why do you think in Acts 19:2 Paul asked the disciples this question, He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? If it is understood that all who believe on Christ have the Spirit of Christ automatically upon faith then this question is not necessary. It is redundant. If someone had asked you after you believed and made a confession of faith if you had received the Holy Ghost since you believed, what would that lead you to think?

Michael The Disciple
03-05-2007, 12:51 AM
I dont think people just automatically receive the Spirit with no witness. Looking again at this portion of scripture:

8:14 Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, 8:15 who, when they had come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Spirit; 8:16 for as yet he had fallen on none of them. Acts 8:14-16

Here is the BIG question.

How was it known the Samaritans had NOT received the Holy Ghost?

Please answer?

Michael The Disciple
03-05-2007, 01:14 AM
Concerning Acts 2:4 Acts 8:14-17 Acts 10:45-46 Acts 19:2-6 Acts 9:17

One Pentecostal writer proclaims:

These are the five recorded cases of persons actually receiving the Baptism of the Holy Ghost in the New Testament Church. There are no other cases recorded -- these are all! We will learn from these, or not at all. There are no others to which we can appeal.

This is pretty strong proof of the initial evidence doctrine.

mizpeh
03-05-2007, 07:59 AM
I dont think people just automatically receive the Spirit with no witness. Looking again at this portion of scripture:

8:14 Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, 8:15 who, when they had come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Spirit; 8:16 for as yet he had fallen on none of them. Acts 8:14-16

Here is the BIG question.

How was it known the Samaritans had NOT received the Holy Ghost?

Please answer?

The BIG question seems to be when does justification happen and is justification the same as salvation? Many here question how it can be possible that if remission of sins occurs at water baptism, how can someone be baptized in the HG if they are still in their sins. No one from the PAJC camp has answered this question.(as far as I know)

On the other hand no one from the PCI camp has adequately from scripture answered when does a person receive the indwelling of the HG? I can't find any verses that say it is at initial faith and repentence or even that remission of sins is at initial faith and repentance except one. Ac 15:9 Which underwhelmingly scant compared to the verses on being cleansed at baptism, baptism saving us, and Acts 2:38.

Sabellius is the only one I have read who believes justification is at faith but it is not the same as salvation. I may have missed it but he hasn't expounded on why he believes this. I'd like to know his reasons

Looks like I have some studying and praying to do. :praying

davidkc
03-07-2007, 07:45 AM
Can I post what I have just put onto a similar thread at GNC?

The way I see it, there are two fundamentally different views.

View One: Tongues are necessary for salvation
One view takes the 'default' position as the doctrine that tongues are necessary for one to have the Spirit and be saved.

This view takes as normative for all Christians the events in Acts 2, 8, 10, 19, interpreted in a certain way. Acts 8 and 19 are used as proof that ‘belief alone’ is insufficient, because the people had to have hands laid on them before they received the Spirit. Acts 2 and 10 are thought of as normative in the sense that all believers today are expected to have that kind of experience, a ‘filling’ accompanied by tongues, when they receive the Spirit.

This view then reads into all the occurences in Acts where it is not described that people spoke in tongues, and say 'they must have spoken in tongues, but the scripture does not record it'.

This view says that Paul et al assumed when writing the epistles that the readers knew and believed the doctrine, hence no need to mention it.
This view asks for hard evidence to disprove the doctrine.

It is assumed that the doctrine is true, unless there is real, definitive, cast iron scriptural proof to the contrary.

I would assume that most apostolics would take this line.
This is what I believed when I became an apostolic (from an Anglican background).

View Two: Salvation does not necessarily require tongues
The other view takes the 'default' position that biblical salvation need not require a person to have spoken in tongues. Obviously there are then the questions about ‘when’ salvation occurs, whether at faith, repentance, baptism or a combination of these. But just for the moment leave those questions aside.

This view looks for evidence to prove the doctrine, not to disprove it.
According to this view, such a doctrine, which seemingly condemns many millions of confessing Christians to hell because they never spoke in tongues, must have cast iron proof from scripture if we are to accept it.

This view looks in vain for explicit teaching of the doctrine in the epistles or in the gospels. Mark 16:17 is often cited, but as I said earlier, it only cites tongues as one of the signs that follow a believer. Jesus says nothing about tongues being necessary.


My position
I have reluctantly come round to the second view. After 3 years in the UPC and accepting everything I was told, I began to question the basis of the doctrine. I saw that there were saints who had been in church for many years, faithfully serving the Lord, and who still had not spoken in tongues. They believed that they had not received the Holy Ghost and that they were not saved. Every altar call, they went forward.

I searched the Bible, and found that it said nothing about two classes of believer, or two classes of salvation (‘first class’ for those who have spoken in tongues and ‘second class’ for those who have not). According to the Bible, you are either in the Book of Life or you are not. There is no ‘in between’.

I found that nobody in the UPC could answer my questions. Rather there seemed to a tendency to read the doctrine into scripture. Nobody seemed prepared to answer my questions about the status of those saints who had not spoken in tongues. The subject seemed embarrassing to many.

When I asked about the many millions of non-apostolic Christians, living or dead, who had never spoken in tongues, there was often an attempt to skate around the issue. Very few people seemed to be prepared to come out and say ‘If they have not spoken in tongues, they are not saved’.

I thought to myself that this is completely wrong. If this is our doctrine, why are we afraid to preach it? Why are we unwilling to think through what it means? Do we really believe that only we apostolics, and only those of us who have spoken in tongues, are going to heaven and the rest to hell.

But I have feel I have accepted the second view reluctantly. I do not claim to have the answers to the obvious questions such as 'OK, when is the Spirit received?’ I cannot answer definitively about the place of baptism, the Jesus Name formula.

It just seems to me that the doctrine that you have to speak in tongues to be saved seems to have a weak scriptural foundation.

I see the only evidence for the doctrine lies in Acts 8 and 19, because those passages show believers receiving the Spirit some time after belief, and so tend to contradict the main alternative to the doctrine which is that the Spirit is received at conversion.

Acts 2 and 10 only show speaking in tongues accompanying the receiving of the Spirit. As it see it now, they do not provide evidence that tongues must accompany receiving the Spirit.

freeatlast
03-07-2007, 08:33 AM
The BIG question seems to be when does justification happen and is justification the same as salvation? Many here question how it can be possible that if remission of sins occurs at water baptism, how can someone be baptized in the HG if they are still in their sins. No one from the PAJC camp has answered this question.(as far as I know)

On the other hand no one from the PCI camp has adequately from scripture answered when does a person receive the indwelling of the HG? I can't find any verses that say it is at initial faith and repentence or even that remission of sins is at initial faith and repentance except one. Ac 15:9 Which underwhelmingly scant compared to the verses on being cleansed at baptism, baptism saving us, and Acts 2:38.

Sabellius is the only one I have read who believes justification is at faith but it is not the same as salvation. I may have missed it but he hasn't expounded on why he believes this. I'd like to know his reasons

Looks like I have some studying and praying to do. :praying

Gal. 3:2 The apostle Paul was grieved with those who thought they earned the spirit. Let me paraphrase. "Galatians, please let me know, just how did you got the Holy Ghost? Did you recieve it by any good thing you did, OR BY HEARING THE GOSPEL AND HAVING FAITH?"

Now I know you'll say that all he was speaking to had spoke in tongues. That is an assumption that has no proof in scripture.

Rememeber Faith cometh by hearing. The galatians were reminded that they had heard the gospel, believed the gospel and had thereby received the spirit by faith.

Falla39
03-07-2007, 10:59 AM
Gal. 3:2 The apostle Paul was grieved with those who thought they earned the spirit. Let me paraphrase. "Galatians, please let me know, just how did you got the Holy Ghost? Did you recieve it by any good thing you did, OR BY HEARING THE GOSPEL AND HAVING FAITH?"

Now I know you'll say that all he was speaking to had spoke in tongues. That is an assumption that has no proof in scripture.

Rememeber Faith cometh by hearing. The galatians were reminded that they had heard the gospel, believed the gospel and had thereby received the spirit by faith.

Yes, faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God! Just suppose

you are sitting in your living room, reading your newspaper. etc. and your

neighbor knocks on your door and says, dear neighbor, not to alarm you,

but your house is on fire. Please get out! If you really believed what your

neighbor said, you would do something. You would get out. There would be

some action. You might say, Thank you, I believe, but you went back over

to your easy chair and continued reading your newspaper and disregarded

the warning, you didn't believe, you just said you did!! Your actions showed

you did not truly believe!!! True faith will cause action! You'll want to do

what the Word of God says. There is a waiting period between the time a

child is conceived and the time to be born. Go out into your garden, plant

some seeds into the soil. Get up the next week and go out there and look

for some veggies. It isn't going to happen. After the seed is sown, then...

first the blade, then the corn, etc., and then the full ear in the corn., etc.

It is a process! Those Galatians had heard (seed sown) and believed (faith)

and had received! A husband sows seed and by faith, the Father (GOD) and

mother (church) know that in the fullness of time, there will be a birth,

unless there is an interference to terminate this process. It could be a

spontaneous miscarrige/abortion due to something that didn't take or etc.

But if everythings goes well, there will be signs along the way that indicate

this faith-child will be born. Movement, also signs will become evident on the

outside that there is indeed growth going on in the inside.

In the fullness of time (full-term) there will be some signs also that the seed

planted on the inside will be coming out to the outside because seed sown in

faith, grows and produces!!

Paul said. My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be

formed in you. Sounds much like a mother (church) that keeps having trouble

carrying the children to term/birth. Something keeps going wrong!! But Paul,

a true spiritual father, keeps trying again, sowing the Word of God, until this

Faith/Child be fully carried to term and birthed! Begotten by the Gospel!!

Just some more thoughts!! Not to be argumentive or offensive!

Blessings,

Falla39

Falla39
03-07-2007, 03:14 PM
:highfive Yes, faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God! Just suppose

you are sitting in your living room, reading your newspaper. etc. and your

neighbor knocks on your door and says, dear neighbor, not to alarm you,

but your house is on fire. Please get out! If you really believed what your

neighbor said, you would do something. You would get out. There would be

some action. You might say, Thank you, I believe, but you went back over

to your easy chair and continued reading your newspaper and disregarded

the warning, you didn't believe, you just said you did!! Your actions showed

you did not truly believe!!! True faith will cause action! You'll want to do

what the Word of God says. There is a waiting period between the time a

child is conceived and the time to be born. Go out into your garden, plant

some seeds into the soil. Get up the next week and go out there and look

for some veggies. It isn't going to happen. After the seed is sown, then...

first the blade, then the corn, etc., and then the full ear in the corn., etc.

It is a process! Those Galatians had heard (seed sown) and believed (faith)

and had received! A husband sows seed and by faith, the Father (GOD) and

mother (church) know that in the fullness of time, there will be a birth,

unless there is an interference to terminate this process. It could be a

spontaneous miscarrige/abortion due to something that didn't take or etc.

But if everythings goes well, there will be signs along the way that indicate

this faith-child will be born. Movement, also signs will become evident on the

outside that there is indeed growth going on in the inside.

In the fullness of time (full-term) there will be some signs also that the seed

planted on the inside will be coming out to the outside because seed sown in

faith, grows and produces!!

Paul said. My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be

formed in you. Sounds much like a mother (church) that keeps having trouble

carrying the children to term/birth. Something keeps going wrong!! But Paul,

a true spiritual father, keeps trying again, sowing the Word of God, until this

Faith/Child be fully carried to term and birthed! Begotten by the Gospel!!

Just some more thoughts!! Not to be argumentive or offensive!

Blessings,

Falla39

BUMP, BUMP, BUMPITY, BUMP, BUMP:highfive

freeatlast
03-07-2007, 03:23 PM
Very nice analogies Falla, but once again Falla, let me remind you that analogies do not establish nor prove doctrines, only scripture does that.

Falla39
03-07-2007, 04:59 PM
Very nice analogies Falla, but once again Falla, let me remind you that analogies do not establish nor prove doctrines, only scripture does that.

Bro. FreeAtLast,

Let's dialogue! What is to be refuted about my post! Perhaps

we can both learn something new! I am a very open person and

am open for sincere discussion! I certainly don't claim to know

everything. But I do know about some things. As you do also!!!:highfive

Blessings,

Falla39

freeatlast
03-07-2007, 06:27 PM
Bro. FreeAtLast,

Let's dialogue! What is to be refuted about my post! Perhaps

we can both learn something new! I am a very open person and

am open for sincere discussion! I certainly don't claim to know

everything. But I do know about some things. As you do also!!!:highfive

Blessings,

Falla39


Your analogy seems to me to bear out that the church has so much to do with birthing new folks.

With much travail and pain and effort, WE bring these new ones to life.

Other than us planting the seed of faith, we have very little to do with a souls new birth. That's between the sinner and the Holt Spirit.

Our planting and watering is all God needs us to do. He has done the rest on Calvary.

The sinners part is to hear in faith. Confess with his mouth. Believe with all his/her heart and accept, take hold of the promise of the Father of Eternal life to those who believe and trust in Christ.

Dear Sis Falla you and i have both been baptized in the name of the Lord.
You feel it was "for" the remission of your sins,
I feel it was "because" of the remission of my sins.

We've both spoke in a heavenly language. You may believe that when you did, you recieved the Holy Spirit.

I feel that I spoke in tongues because the Spirit "fell on me/ came on me or filled me. The gift of Eternal life had allready been sealed for me. This gift of tongues was for my edification in prayer.

We believe different things about the same thing's

I speak in tongues often, but do not feel it has anything to do with my salvation or anyone elses for that matter.

There are many here that believe until you speak in tongues you got didly squat.

Been there/ done that/ believed that/ got the T shirt...but found it just plain did not fit. :beatdeadhorse

Theophilus
03-07-2007, 07:06 PM
Your analogy seems to me to bear out that the church has so much to do with birthing new folks.

With much travail and pain and effort, WE bring these new ones to life.

Other than us planting the seed of faith, we have very little to do with a souls new birth. That's between the sinner and the Holt Spirit.

Our planting and watering is all God needs us to do. He has done the rest on Calvary.

The sinners part is to hear in faith. Confess with his mouth. Believe with all his/her heart and accept, take hold of the promise of the Father of Eternal life to those who believe and trust in Christ.

Dear Sis Falla you and i have both been baptized in the name of the Lord.
You feel it was "for" the remission of your sins,
I feel it was "because" of the remission of my sins.

We've both spoke in a heavenly language. You may believe that when you did, you recieved the Holy Spirit.

I feel that I spoke in tongues because the Spirit "fell on me/ came on me or filled me. The gift of Eternal life had allready been sealed for me. This gift of tongues was for my edification in prayer.

We believe different things about the same thing's

I speak in tongues often, but do not feel it has anything to do with my salvation or anyone elses for that matter.

There are many here that believe until you speak in tongues you got didly squat.

Been there/ done that/ believed that/ got the T shirt...but found it just plain did not fit. :beatdeadhorse

I disagree. I believe many here understand that until someone has spoken in tongues as the Spirit gives the utterance, that they have not received the Spirit. However, I don't believe that anyone here with this doctrine believes that someone has nothing until then, just that it's an important part of the new birth that cannot be sidelined as optional.

freeatlast
03-07-2007, 09:52 PM
I disagree. I believe many here understand that until someone has spoken in tongues as the Spirit gives the utterance, that they have not received the Spirit. However, I don't believe that anyone here with this doctrine believes that someone has nothing until then, just that it's an important part of the new birth that cannot be sidelined as optional.

You said received. Excuse for not going to refence books, but from memory i think there are over 18 DIFFERENT hebrew and greek words that get translated into our one inadequate english word "recieved".

Because of the slight difference meaning each one of these words held to the the people they were adressed to, we fail to understand some of the subtle difference implied in the original script.

The word, Lambano used in acts 8 for recieved indicative of a falling on of the spirit. The spirit came upon them or they were filled with the spirit.

Just as John's mother Elizabeth was "filled witht the Holy Ghost" before Pentecost, and she manifested
So was Zacharias , his father "filled" with the holy ghost before Pentecost and the manifestion was prophcy.

It is the receiving "manifestion" of the holy ghost that Paul said in 1 Cor 12:7
" but the manifestion of the Spirit is given to every man to profit."
vs 8 thru 11 name manifestions that God gives to everone to profit. The word of wisdom/word of knowledge/faith/healing/working of miracles/prophecy/discernmet of spirits/ tongues/ interpretation of tongues.

Verse 11 is so overlooked in this passage. "The Spirit dividing to everyman severally as HE WILL. (we force it to be only tongues)

Verse 18,19 states again. " God set members, everyone of them, in the body, AS IT PLEASED HIM. And if they were all one member, where were the body.
Again God does as He pleases, with us though, we are only pleased with tongues as the manifestation.

The only thing that Please us is tongues.

God is clear, He manifests thru us , his church , as He see fit.

Because we have an historical account of a few differnet ethnic groups that were NOT ACCEPTED amongst the Jew's, God let the unbelieving Jew's hear a manifestion of his Spirit to be a reminder to them that God had "Fallen upon" them just as he had them, in the begining at Pentecost.


I know we say Acts only has tongues in it only when salvation occurs.

Please read it and note all the chapters that speak the language of people coming to faith by hearing and accepting the word with out any mention of tongues. There are far more of these accounts than the accounts that a manifestion of tongues was a witness of the Spirit coming upon a believer.

Michael The Disciple
03-07-2007, 11:02 PM
You said received. Excuse for not going to refence books, but from memory i think there are over 18 DIFFERENT hebrew and greek words that get translated into our one inadequate english word "recieved".

Because of the slight difference meaning each one of these words held to the the people they were adressed to, we fail to understand some of the subtle difference implied in the original script.

The word, Lambano used in acts 8 for recieved indicative of a falling on of the spirit. The spirit came upon them or they were filled with the spirit.

Just as John's mother Elizabeth was "filled witht the Holy Ghost" before Pentecost, and she manifested
So was Zacharias , his father "filled" with the holy ghost before Pentecost and the manifestion was prophcy.

It is the receiving "manifestion" of the holy ghost that Paul said in 1 Cor 12:7
" but the manifestion of the Spirit is given to every man to profit."
vs 8 thru 11 name manifestions that God gives to everone to profit. The word of wisdom/word of knowledge/faith/healing/working of miracles/prophecy/discernmet of spirits/ tongues/ interpretation of tongues.

Verse 11 is so overlooked in this passage. "The Spirit dividing to everyman severally as HE WILL. (we force it to be only tongues)

Verse 18,19 states again. " God set members, everyone of them, in the body, AS IT PLEASED HIM. And if they were all one member, where were the body.
Again God does as He pleases, with us though, we are only pleased with tongues as the manifestation.

The only thing that Please us is tongues.

God is clear, He manifests thru us , his church , as He see fit.

Because we have an historical account of a few differnet ethnic groups that were NOT ACCEPTED amongst the Jew's, God let the unbelieving Jew's hear a manifestion of his Spirit to be a reminder to them that God had "Fallen upon" them just as he had them, in the begining at Pentecost.


I know we say Acts only has tongues in it only when salvation occurs.

Please read it and note all the chapters that speak the language of people coming to faith by hearing and accepting the word with out any mention of tongues. There are far more of these accounts than the accounts that a manifestion of tongues was a witness of the Spirit coming upon a believer.

How did the Apostles know the Samaritans had NOT received the Holy Ghost?

Felicity
03-07-2007, 11:11 PM
I disagree. I believe many here understand that until someone has spoken in tongues as the Spirit gives the utterance, that they have not received the Spirit. However, I don't believe that anyone here with this doctrine believes that someone has nothing until then, just that it's an important part of the new birth that cannot be sidelined as optional. Okay, so they have something. Just what is it then that they have?

J-Roc
03-07-2007, 11:23 PM
Verse 11 is so overlooked in this passage. "The Spirit dividing to everyman severally as HE WILL. (we force it to be only tongues)


FAL, have you noticed that a common scripture that is used is Joel 2 and yet they seemingly ignore all the manifestations that are described in the passage they quote:


"And afterward,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your old men will dream dreams,
your young men will see visions.
Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days.

I will show wonders in the heavens
and on the earth,
blood and fire and billows of smoke."

stmatthew
03-07-2007, 11:29 PM
The fact is that the initial evidence doctrine became a main part of the 20th century teaching because some college folks in Topeka, KS began studying on the Holy Ghost, and found that one of the common denominators listed in many of the receptions was that the recipient's spoke in tongues as the Spirit gave the utterance.

I for one would wonder why anyone would accept anything less for proof when the church was born with tongues being spoken

Felicity
03-07-2007, 11:31 PM
The fact is that the initial evidence doctrine became a main part of the 20th century teaching because some college folks in Topeka, KS began studying on the Holy Ghost, and found that one of the common denominators listed in many of the receptions was that the recipient's spoke in tongues as the Spirit gave the utterance.

I for one would wonder why anyone would accept anything less for proof when the church was born with tongues being spoken But they never considered themselves to be unregenerate before they received the Holy Ghost experience/tongues.

They were hungry for what they saw recorded in Acts and wanted the same thing. They weren't praying or seeking or waiting on God to get born again or "saved". They already were.

stmatthew
03-07-2007, 11:34 PM
But they never considered themselves to be unregenerate before they received the Holy Ghost experience/tongues.

They were hungry for what they saw recorded in Acts and wanted the same thing. They weren't praying or seeking or waiting on God to get born again or "saved". They already were.

Well......thats for another thread. hehehe!


I was just pointing out that this was probably the reason we stress tongues so much. Because these folks that received it at the turn of the century stressed that it came with it.

J-Roc
03-07-2007, 11:35 PM
I for one would wonder why anyone would accept anything less for proof when the church was born with tongues being spoken


What does this prove? That you are accepted by God and that until then you are in salvation limbo? :dunno

stmatthew
03-07-2007, 11:36 PM
What does this prove? That you are accepted by God and that until then you are in salvation limbo? :dunno

Just my opinion.

Felicity
03-07-2007, 11:37 PM
What does this prove? That you are accepted by God and that until then you are in salvation limbo? :dunnoYou're in the birth canal I think. :heeheehee

J-Roc
03-07-2007, 11:38 PM
Just my opinion.


Fair enough, my brother! :highfive

Felicity
03-07-2007, 11:40 PM
Well......thats for another thread. hehehe!


I was just pointing out that this was probably the reason we stress tongues so much. Because these folks that received it at the turn of the century stressed that it came with it.Matthew........

Nobody here is questioning the Holy Ghost-tongue talking experience. We all accept that it's real and authentic. But the fact is......... those Bible School students weren't seeking the baptism of the Spirit to get saved. They already were. They wanted the "power" they read about in Acts. They were hungry for what happened there in regard to power, anointing, miracles, etc.

They never claimed "salvation" after they received tongues or lack of it before they did.

stmatthew
03-07-2007, 11:44 PM
Matthew........

Nobody here is questioning the Holy Ghost-tongue talking experience. We all accept that it's real and authentic. But the fact is......... those Bible School students weren't seeking the baptism of the Spirit to get saved. They already were. They wanted the "power" they read about in Acts. They were hungry for what happened there in regard to power, anointing, miracles, etc.

They never claimed "salvation" after they received tongues or lack of it before they did.

Oh, this is what I get for skimming a thread. I thought this thread was just about the initial evidence doctrine. I didn't know we were discussing whether receiving the Holy Ghost is part of the born again experience.

Felicity
03-07-2007, 11:45 PM
Oh, this is what I get for skimming a thread. I thought this thread was just about the initial evidence doctrine. I didn't know we were discussing whether receiving the Holy Ghost is part of the born again experience.I was just responding to the point you were making about the Topeka Bible School crowd. It's a good one to make (my point) so thought I'd better do that. ;) :)

J-Roc
03-07-2007, 11:48 PM
Oh, this is what I get for skimming a thread. I thought this thread was just about the initial evidence doctrine. I didn't know we were discussing whether receiving the Holy Ghost is part of the born again experience.


The HG is is part of the born again experience, it's just that the born again experience is not limited to tongues. That is what is being debated...

J-Roc
03-07-2007, 11:53 PM
Anyway, I just wish these matters could always be discussed in a civil manner as we three have tonight...and spread love to one another...I love you Matt!!!

Felicity
03-07-2007, 11:54 PM
God certainly works in people's lives before they receive the baptism of the Spirit. They're spiritually reborn, set free from all kinds of addiction, forgiven, cleansed, sometimes healed both physically and emotionally.

Lots of good things happens to a person before he ever speaks in tongues that demonstrates God has already done a work in their life by His Spirit.

How can the natural man and mind receive the things of the Spirit? It's impossible according to the Scripture.

How can the natural unregenerate man's heart be turned toward God, His Word, desiring to do God's will and receive all that God has for him if he's still in a carnal regenerate state? It's impossible. It doesn't even make sense.

stmatthew
03-07-2007, 11:55 PM
The HG is is part of the born again experience, it's just that the born again experience is not limited to tongues. That is what is being debated...

Question: if the holy ghost is part of the born again experience, and the Apostles did not receive the Holy Ghost until Pentecost, where they not born again until Pentecost?

stmatthew
03-07-2007, 11:56 PM
Anyway, I just wish these matters could always be discussed in a civil manner as we three have tonight...and spread love to one another...I love you Matt!!!

Hey I love you all too. I even love Daniel, even if he does get me stirred up at times. :drawguns

Felicity
03-08-2007, 12:02 AM
Question: if the holy ghost is part of the born again experience, and the Apostles did not receive the Holy Ghost until Pentecost, where they not born again until Pentecost?They couldn't receive the Spirit in the same way we do today because Jesus was still with them, but it's plain their faith, belief and obedience made them believers and Jesus told them that their names were written down in heaven.

They never testified after Acts 2:4 that they were now "saved". They were told to wait for an enduement of power and that's what they received and that's what they testified to receiving after it happened. Not that they were now ready for heaven and hadn't been previously.

J-Roc
03-08-2007, 12:03 AM
Question: if the holy ghost is part of the born again experience, and the Apostles did not receive the Holy Ghost until Pentecost, where they not born again until Pentecost?


I'll answer that with this: if Peter addressed the crowd after the Pentecost experience and related it to Joel 2 scripture and if Joel 2 scripture reveals different manifestations of the pouring out of God's Spirit...are we to limit the pouring out of the Spirit to mean only tongue talking in spite of what Peter quoted and explained?



"And afterward,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your old men will dream dreams,
your young men will see visions.
Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days.

I will show wonders in the heavens
and on the earth,
blood and fire and billows of smoke."

stmatthew
03-08-2007, 12:10 AM
They couldn't receive the Spirit in the same way we do today because Jesus was still with them, but it's plain their faith, belief and obedience made them believers and Jesus told them that their names were written down in heaven.

They never testified after Acts 2:4 that they were now "saved". They were told to wait for an enduement of power and that's what they received and that's what they testified to receiving after it happened. Not that they were now ready for heaven and hadn't been previously.

Was Peter saved while he was denying Jesus, and cursing him? I think it needs to be addressed that salvation of the new testament began at Pentecost. This was when Christ came to abide IN his church. New Laws were written in the hearts of these men. They were forever changed.

Felicity
03-08-2007, 12:12 AM
Was Peter saved while he was denying Jesus, and cursing him? I think it needs to be addressed that salvation of the new testament began at Pentecost. This was when Christ came to abide IN his church. New Laws were written in the hearts of these men. They were forever changed.Peter repented and was restored long before Acts 2:4.

stmatthew
03-08-2007, 12:14 AM
I'll answer that with this: if Peter addressed the crowd after the Pentecost experience and related it to Joel 2 scripture and if Joel 2 scripture reveals different manifestations of the pouring out of God's Spirit...are we to limit the pouring out of the Spirit to mean only tongue talking in spite of what Peter quoted and explained?



"And afterward,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your old men will dream dreams,
your young men will see visions.
Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days.

I will show wonders in the heavens
and on the earth,
blood and fire and billows of smoke."

I do not think we are limited to anything. But I have seen over and over folks who knew nothing of Pentecost come and without any coaching, receive the Holy Ghost. And you know what, every one of them spoke in tongues.


How many of you non-tongues believers are there that would be willing to give up tongues since they are not necessary??

stmatthew
03-08-2007, 12:16 AM
Peter repented and was restored long before Acts 2:4.

Peter went fishing. After Jesus resurrected, he had to go into an upper room and pray until the Promise came.

What in the world do you folks think the Promise is?? just some optional gadget that you can zap folks with. It is the Life of Jesus Christ coming into your heart. It is the earnest payment. It is eternal life. It is the quickening to life of a new and living way.

Felicity
03-08-2007, 12:19 AM
I do not think we are limited to anything. But I have seen over and over folks who knew nothing of Pentecost come and without any coaching, receive the Holy Ghost. And you know what, every one of them spoke in tongues.


How many of you non-tongues believers are there that would be willing to give up tongues since they are not necessary??Wait up there Matt! Who said they aren't necessary? Certainly not I!

Jesus told His disciples to wait for this enduement of power so that they would be equipped to carry out their ministry and His command to them to go and preach the Gospel. We need this enduement of power and anointing for the same reason.

Felicity
03-08-2007, 12:20 AM
Anyhow...... I'm taking a popcorn break :) and a break from this.

God bless you Matt. You are appreciated.

stmatthew
03-08-2007, 12:24 AM
Wait up there Matt! Who said they aren't necessary? Certainly not I!

Jesus told His disciples to wait for this enduement of power so that they would be equipped to carry out their ministry and His command to them to go and preach the Gospel. We need this enduement of power and anointing for the same reason.

So you believe everyone will speak in tongues, just not initially??

stmatthew
03-08-2007, 12:25 AM
Anyhow...... I'm taking a popcorn break :) and a break from this.

God bless you Matt. You are appreciated.

Bless you too Sis. It is about my bedtime here. It is 12:25am

J-Roc
03-08-2007, 12:30 AM
I do not think we are limited to anything. But I have seen over and over folks who knew nothing of Pentecost come and without any coaching, receive the Holy Ghost. And you know what, every one of them spoke in tongues.


How many of you non-tongues believers are there that would be willing to give up tongues since they are not necessary??

The discussion at hand with regards to tongues has to do with whether it is a matter of salvation...that it is not a salvific experience does not minimize one's desire for this wonderful experience and even Paul stressed how glad he was that he spoke in more tongues than any of the corinthians...was your desire for experiencing tongues solely based on wishing to escape the flames of hell? And that's what too many OP circles are doing to the believers...they are scaring the living daylights out of people telling them they are going to hell w/o this experience....they will tell them, "come let's go to the altar and pray you through"...the person goes, nothing happens, they get the usual back rub and sympathy hug and say "Don't worry, Sport will try again next Sunday"...meanwhile it's okay that you go home and live Monday through Friday scared out of your wits hoping a car wont run you over because although you have given your life over to Christ and trust that his blood covers sin, you are being told that your soul is headed for fiery flames. Sure, it's easy for the one praying them through for they already received their laminated Pearly Gates entrance card and are high-fiving each other :highfive and meanwhile the believing soul goes home week after week with their head down wondering what the deal is and feeling rejected by God...but they are told..."Come on, be of good cheer"....

If this were to be the gospel of Jesus Christ....this would be HORRIBLE NEWS and certainly not GOOD NEWS!!!

stmatthew
03-08-2007, 12:38 AM
The discussion at hand with regards to tongues has to do with whether it is a matter of salvation...that it is not a salvific experience does not minimize one's desire for this wonderful experience and even Paul stressed how glad he was that he spoke in more tongues than any of the corinthians...was your desire for experiencing tongues solely based on wishing to escape the flames of hell? And that's what too many OP circles are doing to the believers...they are scaring the living daylights out of people telling them they are going to hell w/o this experience....they will tell them, "come let's go to the altar and pray you through"...the person goes, nothing happens, they get the usual back rub and sympathy hug and say "Don't worry, Sport will try again next Sunday"...meanwhile it's okay that you go home and live Monday through Friday scared out of your wits hoping a car wont run you over because although you have given your life over to Christ and trust that his blood covers sin, you are being told that your soul is headed for fiery flames. Sure, it's easy for the one praying them through for they already received their laminated Pearly Gates entrance card and are high-fiving each other :highfive and meanwhile the believing soul goes home week after week with their head down wondering what the deal is and feeling rejected by God...but they are told..."Come on, be of good cheer"....

If this were to be the gospel of Jesus Christ....this would be HORRIBLE NEWS and certainly not GOOD NEWS!!!

The simple fact is, your story above does not line up with scripture. I find nowhere in scripture where folks had to go through the ritual of becoming a chronic seeker. The Holy Ghost is a gift to be received, not something you beg for. But again, that does not change the fact the the Holy Ghost is where Christ, the Spirit of truth, comes into a persons life.

And again, while I have seen the chronic seekers, I have also seen those that knew nothing of the holy Ghost come forward and after tears of repentance, just simply receive it and stat talking in tongues. No one told them they had to talk in tongues. It just came with the package.

stmatthew
03-08-2007, 12:40 AM
So you believe everyone will speak in tongues, just not initially??

Can you answer this question??

Will everyone speak in holy ghost tongues at some point in their life, or is it just for a select group?

Theophilus
03-08-2007, 12:41 AM
You said received. Excuse for not going to refence books, but from memory i think there are over 18 DIFFERENT hebrew and greek words that get translated into our one inadequate english word "recieved".

What do you do with a gift that is given?

Because of the slight difference meaning each one of these words held to the the people they were adressed to, we fail to understand some of the subtle difference implied in the original script.

The word, Lambano used in acts 8 for recieved indicative of a falling on of the spirit. The spirit came upon them or they were filled with the spirit.

Nonsense, the word is simple in its definitions and usage. Investigate the usage, there is nothing obscured by variation.

Just as John's mother Elizabeth was "filled with the Holy Ghost" before Pentecost, and she manifested
So was Zacharias , his father "filled" with the holy ghost before Pentecost and the manifestion was prophcy.

So was John, from the womb, however this is immaterial to this issue as this was prior to, Jesus' teachings per the new birth, the cross, resurrection, eludings to the outpouring of His Spirit, the ascension, the promise of the new covenant given. The Spirit did all sorts of things in the Old Testament prior to the New Covenant.

It is the receiving "manifestion" of the holy ghost that Paul said in 1 Cor 12:7
" but the manifestion of the Spirit is given to every man to profit."
vs 8 thru 11 name manifestions that God gives to everone to profit. The word of wisdom/word of knowledge/faith/healing/working of miracles/prophecy/discernmet of spirits/ tongues/ interpretation of tongues.

Verse 11 is so overlooked in this passage. "The Spirit dividing to everyman severally as HE WILL. (we force it to be only tongues)

Surely you jest, this passage concerns the gifts of the Spirit, not the initial evidence as we see in Word and countless examples.

Verse 18,19 states again. " God set members, everyone of them, in the body, AS IT PLEASED HIM. And if they were all one member, where were the body.
Again God does as He pleases, with us though, we are only pleased with tongues as the manifestation.

More of the same misnomer, The topic of the thread is Initial Physical Evidence. See Acts 2:33

The only thing that Please us is tongues.

God is clear, He manifests thru us , his church , as He see fit.

Because we have an historical account of a few differnet ethnic groups that were NOT ACCEPTED amongst the Jew's, God let the unbelieving Jew's hear a manifestion of his Spirit to be a reminder to them that God had "Fallen upon" them just as he had them, in the begining at Pentecost.

More of the same repetition. To attempt a parallel, you're trying to compare one's birth with one's abilities endowed. That is why you are confused.

One of the most important Studies you could do would surround John 3:8. Jesus describes the birth of everyone that is born of the Spirit. You like the Greek, so I'll let you break it down. Pay attention to the context, the Greek words and their predominant usages. It's a spot on illustration of tongues. Notice Jesus explains that everyone is Spiritually born as a result of this particular action.

I know we say Acts only has tongues in it only when salvation occurs.

Please read it and note all the chapters that speak the language of people coming to faith by hearing and accepting the word with out any mention of tongues. There are far more of these accounts than the accounts that a manifestion of tongues was a witness of the Spirit coming upon a believer.


I can read Acts in an hour and a half, I listen to it on audio for fun, and I've studied it extensively. I've thoroughly enjoyed M.D. Treece's works as well.

The doctrine of tongues as initial is so extensive and comprehensive that it doesn't have to be mentioned every single time as the book progresses. Acts is an historical account with no need or desire to be redundant with the simplicity of the New Birth message that was both experienced and consequently taught throughout by the Apostles.

To illustrate my point as simple as possible for you with the little time I have left I share the following.

Say we are pen pals, and I write you a letter to let you know how my summer visit to my uncle Bill's went. Uncle Bill is a mechanic and he taught me how to change the oil in cars and truck to help him out. I might share how you put the vehicle up on jacks, grab a pan, unfasten the plug, drain the oil (into the pan, man), pull the filter. Then I might share how to install the new filter properly, fasten the plug (don't cross thread it), fill the oil to the proper level, start the car, check for leaks, set the vehicle down and you're done.

The process is the same for every vehicle! (Think John 3)

Now then, as I continue to tell you of my summer adventures I might mention an oil change here and there, but I don't have to break it down to the details because I assume you got the picture the first time and understand when I mention oil changes you envision the process. Therefore, when I tell you I did 20 oil changes on a Friday you can be impressed and have pity because I worked too hard for a Friday, and also because you already understand all that is involved. The End.

The Book of Acts goes further with the multiple detailed accounts of initial New Birth experiences, so when later you read of salvatory situations you get the picture.

When Jesus teaches, foretells, and foreshadows the New Birth Experience, and when the Apostles report of the fulfillment on multiple detailed accounts, and take part in the process, after awhile it's understood what is meant by an infilling of the Holy Ghost. No more road map needed, we know the way.

Why tongues? Should it surprise us that Jesus would choose to control the most unruly member of the body to show us, and others, that if he is in control of the tongue, He's in total control as long as we are in a state of yielding?


At any rate, don't forget, when studying the Spiritual New Birth, it is imperative that we look into Jesus' teachings on the matter. (John 3:8) He is discussing an event that takes place for everyone, and we know that the Spirit gives the utterence. God Bless and Good Night..er uh Morning, Theo.

J-Roc
03-08-2007, 12:46 AM
Can you answer this question??

Will everyone speak in holy ghost tongues at some point in their life, or is it just for a select group?


If you are asking me...I dont think everyone that is saved speaks in tongues (perfect example - Carpenter's grandfather..I think it was Carp who shared this)...and by saying this I am not implying one should not desire tongues or that it is unimportant.

Theophilus
03-08-2007, 12:46 AM
Peter went fishing. After Jesus resurrected, he had to go into an upper room and pray until the Promise came.

What in the world do you folks think the Promise is?? just some optional gadget that you can zap folks with. It is the Life of Jesus Christ coming into your heart. It is the earnest payment. It is eternal life. It is the quickening to life of a new and living way.

The error of Simon The Sorcerer comes to mind.

stmatthew
03-08-2007, 12:51 AM
If you are asking me...I dont think everyone that is saved speaks in tongues (perfect example - Carpenter's grandfather..I think it was Carp who shared this)...and by saying this I am not implying one should not desire tongues or that it is unimportant.

So there are those that will never know this powerful act of praying in the Holy Ghost?? God will withhold from them the powerful release of praying in tongues?

J-Roc
03-08-2007, 12:55 AM
So there are those that will never know this powerful act of praying in the Holy Ghost?? God will withhold from them the powerful release of praying in tongues?

Aren't you happy that their name is written in the book of life? Jesus saves! God distributes gifts of the HG as he determines.

Felicity
03-08-2007, 01:00 AM
The error of Simon The Sorcerer comes to mind.Simon wanted to buy the anointing and miracle working power of the Holy Ghost that Jesus told His disciples to wait for. And why were they told to wait there in Jerusalem for it? Because it would give them power to accomplish ministry .... the evidence of which Simon saw and desired, but for selfish ambition.

Theophilus
03-08-2007, 01:04 AM
Simon wanted to buy the anointing and miracle working power of the Holy Ghost that Jesus told His disciples to wait for. And why were they told to wait there in Jerusalem for it? Because it would give them power to accomplish ministry .... the evidence of which Simon saw and desired, but for selfish ambition.

That is why he saw it as a gizmo. Perhaps he had made a habit of collecting "gizmos" prior to.

Felicity
03-08-2007, 01:18 AM
That is why he saw it as a gizmo. Perhaps he had made a habit of collecting "gizmos" prior to."Gizmo" .... that's funny. :)

Well possibly you're right but I never saw it as a gizmo. I simply wanted everything that God had for me and of course we were taught that Spirit infilling/baptism was essential. It was never taught as an option.

I sought long and hard and when I finally received my life changed spiritually but I didn't feel as if I was now saved and regenerated and hadn't been previous. what happened is that I began to be useful to the kingdom of God and to the church in a way I hadn't previous.

My prayer life took off. I began to pray intercessorily (is that a word? not sure. :)) and the gifts of the Spirit began to work in my life. My spiritual life deepened; consecration and commitment did too.

I read something the other day that a pastor wrote that has impacted me in regard to Spirit baptism and the kingdom of God. I gained perspective in a way I hadn't ever before. It was almost revelatory. I'm still thinking on it .... weighing it.

Truly Blessed
03-08-2007, 02:00 AM
Can you answer this question??

Will everyone speak in holy ghost tongues at some point in their life, or is it just for a select group?"tongues" will always be an interesting and controversial subject. In answer to this specific question, while I preach strongly, as I did to over 1000 people here in Cairo, Egypt last night that God wants them to be filled with the Holy Ghost and speak with other tongues, I have to admit there have been folks in churches I have pastored that never spoke in tongues, but they certainly loved God, and showed by the fruit of their lives that the Spirit was present.

How DO you explain folks who don't speak in tongues yet produce the same fruit and sometimes even more fruit of the Spirit than some who do?

The Bible does teach that by their fruits you shall know them and that it is in the producing of much fruit that the Father is glorified.

Barb
03-08-2007, 02:08 AM
"tongues" will always be an interesting and controversial subject. In answer to this specific question, while I preach strongly, as I did to over 1000 people here in Cairo, Egypt last night that God wants them to be filled with the Holy Ghost and speak with other tongues, I have to admit there have been folks in churches I have pastored that never spoke in tongues, but they certainly loved God, and showed by the fruit of their lives that the Spirit was present.

How DO you explain folks who don't speak in tongues yet produce the same fruit and sometimes even more fruit of the Spirit than some who do?

The Bible does teach that by their fruits you shall know them and that it is in the producing of much fruit that the Father is glorified.
I can't explain it, Elder, but I believe one MUST be filled with the Holy Ghost and speak with tongues.

Joelel
03-08-2007, 03:12 AM
Are there any Pentecostals who do not believe that speaking in tongues is the inititial physical evidence of the baptism in the Holy Spirit?


[B][There are two kind of gifts of tongues as Paul wrote,)1Cor.13[1] Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.(They spoke in tongues of men on the day of Pentecost when filled with the Holy Ghost,Tongues of angels is when you speak to God)

./B]On the day of Pentecost they were prophesying in tongues and it was being interpreted in 17 different tongues from the mouths of the speakers to the ears of the hearers because the writers said this.THIS IS THAT,this is that what you now hear.God said they would prophecy,not speak in tongues when filled with the Holy Ghost.Acts.2:16: But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel.17: And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams.

(Ways tongues is interpreted,)1 Cor.14: 6. Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?

(On the day of Pentecost it was interpreted because all the hearers understood in their own language.So there was the gift of tongues and the interpretation of tongues and prophecy.Three gifts on the day of Pentecost.)Acts2:[8] And how hear we every man in our own tongue, wherein we were born?

This is what's going on in the church today,1 Cor.14:23: If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?(crazy)

This is what should be taking place in the church,1 Cor.14:24: But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:25: And thus are the secrets of his heart made manifest; and so falling down on his face he will worship God, and report that God is in you of a truth

On the day of pentecost when they spoke in tongues it was understood. Today when people speaks in tongues 99% of the time it is not understood.

On the day of Pentecost tongues was understood.What did Paul say about tongues that were not understood?Paul wrote in Cor. 14: 1: Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.
2: For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue (tongues of angels)speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.3: But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort
3: But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.4: He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.5: I would that ye all spake with tongues, but rather that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church may receive edifying
18: I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:19: Yet in the church I had rather speak five words with my understanding, that by my voice I might teach others also, than ten thousand words in an unknown tongue.20: Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men


Most will agree what Isa.wrote was talking about the pouring out of the Holy Ghost.Isa.28:11: For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.12: To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
Then Paul writting about the gift of tongues referred to Isa.1 Cor. 14:21:In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.22: Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
Paul said here very clearly, with the lips of believers who speak other tongues God will speak to unbelievers and it is a sign to the unbeliever and after all of that they still will not hear God, says the Lord. This is what took place on the Day of Pentecost. Therefore the tongues they spoke in on the day of Pentecost was the gift of tongues

Joelel
03-08-2007, 03:36 AM
This is how I see it - which would mean the Holy Ghost can dwell in you before you speak in tongues. Tongues is just the evidence.

Where does the bible say it's the evidence ?

Joelel
03-08-2007, 03:47 AM
Is TB someone on this forum?

Does anyone know any other Pentecostals who do not embrace the doctrine of initial physical evidence?

The Church of God don't believe it's the evidence but they don't baptize in Jesus name either.Jesus name baptism is the correct way.

Joelel
03-08-2007, 03:50 AM
I was taught that you do not have the holy spirit unless you have spoken in tongues. Anybody else?

Yes many of us were taught that and i was but the word don't teach it.

Joelel
03-08-2007, 04:06 AM
Felicity,

If the baptism of the Holy Spirit is evidenced by speaking in tongues what do you call the type of infilling a person would have when they have the Spirit of Christ in them at initial faith and repentance? bedauce without the Spirit of Christ we do not belong to him. So if the baptism of the Holy Spirit is subsequent to salvation then somehow one must have the Spirit prior, I'm just not sure there is scripture to prove that.

The Holy Spirit and the Spirit of Christ is the same.The word Christ means anointed and we are anointed by the Holy Spirit (Ghost)

Joelel
03-08-2007, 04:30 AM
ACOP's Official Statement of Faith

We believe in:

1) The verbal inspiration of the Holy Scriptures.

2) The eternal existence of one true God who is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

3) The Saviour of men, the Lord Jesus Christ, conceived of the Holy Spirit, born
of the Virgin Mary, very God and very man.

4) The creation, test and fall of man, as recorded in Genesis; His total spiritual
depravity and inability to attain to divine righteousness.

5) The Gospel of the Grace of God, how that Christ died for our sins, was buried,
and rose again the third day for our justification.

6) The salvation of sinners by Grace, through faith alone in the perfect and sufficient
work of Christ on our behalf upon the cross of Calvary excluding all human merit.

7) Water baptism of believers by immersion in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ.

8) The baptism of the Holy Spirit as an experience subsequent to salvation, with the
scriptural evidence, namely, speaking in tongues.

9) The gifts of the Spirit as enumerated in I Corinthians, being exercised and practiced
as manifest in the early Church.

10) The Lord’s Supper, as a memorial for believers.

11) The healing of the body by Divine Power, or Divine Healing in many aspects as
manifested in the early Church.

12) The eternal life of the believer and the eternal punishment of the unbeliever.

13) The Spirit-filled life of separation from the world, and the perfecting of holiness
in the fear of God as an expression of Christian faith.

14) The reality and personality of Satan and demons.

15) The reality and ministry of holy angels.

16) The personal return of the Lord Jesus Christ for His Church.

17) In the sanctity of marriage, as a life long exclusive commitment between one man
and one woman.

The word eternal and everlasting means an age.If we have the age of life then we don't have the age of death.The age of death is when our spirit dies.Out spirit don't burn with out end if were not saved as many teach,but it dies a death. The second death.Rev.020:012And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

020:013And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 020:014And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.(cease to exist)

020:015And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire

Rev.002:011He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death (cease to exist)

James005:020Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death,(cease to exist) and shall hide a multitude of sins

Rom.006:021What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things is death.(cease to exist) 006:022But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

006:023For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.


Luke20:34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: 35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: 36 Neither can they die(cease to exist)any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection

Praxeas
03-08-2007, 04:46 AM
Hi Joel. When you want to bold something, Hilite it by RIGHT clicking the mouse and dragging it to select the text. Then hit "B".

And Welcome to the forum :ty

Truly Blessed
03-08-2007, 05:51 AM
I have made this point before. The Bible does not say that tongues is the evidence, it says it is a sign. The evidence is the fruit of a Spirit filled life. This is why I have a problem with the idea that only when someone speaks with other tongues do they have the Spirit's presence. I see the fruit of the Spirit in their lives even though they never spoke with tongues.

Another thought to consider; Peter told the multitude on the Day of Pentecost that they needed to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remisssion of sins and "ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost"

So, if a person repents and is baptized in the name of Jesus Christ then according to Peter they shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. If speaking in tongues is the initial sign and having done what they were commanded to do, why is God withholding this gift from them? He's not doing what He promised to do. Why isn't the person coming up out of the water speaking in tongues?

freeatlast
03-08-2007, 08:26 AM
I have made this point before. The Bible does not say that tongues is the evidence, it says it is a sign. The evidence is the fruit of a Spirit filled life. This is why I have a problem with the idea that only when someone speaks with other tongues do they have the Spirit's presence. I see the fruit of the Spirit in their lives even though they never spoke with tongues.

Another thought to consider; Peter told the multitude on the Day of Pentecost that they needed to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remisssion of sins and "ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost"

So, if a person repents and is baptized in the name of Jesus Christ then according to Peter they shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. If speaking in tongues is the initial sign and having done what they were commanded to do, why is God withholding this gift from them? He's not doing what He promised to do. Why isn't the person coming up out of the water speaking in tongues?

Eggzactly TB...only one reason..they are not good enough for God yet !!

Do we make God and Peter a liar when we recite the words of Acts 2:38 and when folks come up NOT speaking in tongues, even after we wiggle their chin and do all the stuff we do to wet people in a tank.

We tell them, hey you almost got the Holy Ghost.

That IS NOT what the word says in ACTS 2:38 It says YOU WILL recieve the
gift of the Holy Ghost.

It does not say YOU MIGHT or ALMOST WILL GET IT

Everyone we baptize that believes and has repented recieves the spirit of Christ, the Holy Ghost into their life. Sometimes they even are blessed with the gift of tongues.

I am glad for the ones God gives other manifestions to, as Paul said He would in 1 Cor. 12:8

I'm especially glad for those he manifests thru with the word of knowledge and word of wisdom. And prophecy is a blessed manifestion of God's spirit to see working in people.

verse 39 say's it's a promise. I am standing on tha promise.

freeatlast
03-08-2007, 08:44 AM
How did the Apostles know the Samaritans had NOT received the Holy Ghost?

They did not. because of their unbelief, that a Samaritan could be saved, God let them hear a sign they could relate to, to prove to the unbelieving Jews he had indeed added to the church these Samaritan DOGS.

God is soveriegn, He can do what he wants.
Because we have seen in a few accounts where some new believers spoke in tongues, we figure it will always happen that way.

Truth is our begging and tarrying or cajoling God to speak in tongues IS IN NO WAY even close to what we see in the Acts accounts of this happening.

God fell on all. it was not being sought after by those that recieved.

Not one was told..Hey nice try..wow stammering lips..whewwwHooo you almost got it.

Again over 18 different words get translated into our one English word receive or received

The Samaitans "recieved/lambano" manifested objectively what they allready possessed.

If Phillip was doing it wrong in Samaria, why then did God send him to the Ethopian Eunuch next and have him repeat the same salvation experience he had with the Samaritins. he brought them to faith thru the hearing of the word and baptized them, then God sent or took Phiipip on his way. The Eunuch went on his way "rejoicing" (with joy..a fruit or evidence of the spirit) not speaking in tongues.

I am not against tongues. I just do not see it anymore as an proof of salvation.

freeatlast
03-08-2007, 08:54 AM
FAL, have you noticed that a common scripture that is used is Joel 2 and yet they seemingly ignore all the manifestations that are described in the passage they quote:


"And afterward,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy,
your old men will dream dreams,
your young men will see visions.
Even on my servants, both men and women,
I will pour out my Spirit in those days.

I will show wonders in the heavens
and on the earth,
blood and fire and billows of smoke."

Fulfilled on the Day of Penteost. God baptized all flesh on earth. We do not find the language, "get the baptism of the Holy Ghost" , in the Epistles or even later in the book of Acts.

Paul makes one refernce to being baptized by the Holy Ghost in a testimonial refering back to the day of Pentecost, when God baptized or poured out his spirit on all the earth. The fulfilment of Joels prophecy took place only once.

By that one pouring out, God made availagle to all flesh ( Jew Gentile Samaritan) his spirit indwelling in the lives of ALL who would gladly accept the gospel message He would send his followers to preach.

ChTatum
03-08-2007, 09:01 AM
I may not be as liberal as I thought......

freeatlast
03-08-2007, 09:04 AM
The simple fact is, your story above does not line up with scripture. I find nowhere in scripture where folks had to go through the ritual of becoming a chronic seeker. The Holy Ghost is a gift to be received, not something you beg for. But again, that does not change the fact the the Holy Ghost is where Christ, the Spirit of truth, comes into a persons life.

And again, while I have seen the chronic seekers, I have also seen those that knew nothing of the holy Ghost come forward and after tears of repentance, just simply receive it and stat talking in tongues. No one told them they had to talk in tongues. It just came with the package.

stmatthew: you make a good apologist for the PCI view here.

You are CORRECT..no where in scripture do we find anything that resembles what we put people thru. Chronic seekers as you call them.

Good and godly people who have repented and have believed in faith..and we tell them week after week, nice try..you almost got it !!!!!

You almost got it ??? good grief..this is....errrrr never mind...don't wanna get banned.

freeatlast
03-08-2007, 09:06 AM
I may not be as liberal as I thought......

Don't be so hard on yourself, Chatum :tease

ChTatum
03-08-2007, 10:20 AM
Wasn't this view espoused by Branham? That tongues was not the initial sign?

freeatlast
03-08-2007, 10:28 AM
Wasn't this view espoused by Branham? That tongues was not the initial sign?

Dunno ChTatum..don't know much about his views

It is a view of mine though.

But in disagreeing with a view that is always best, just label them a Branhamite....or Cambelite. I can assure you I am niether.

I am merely a light :tease

ChTatum
03-08-2007, 10:50 AM
Dunno ChTatum..don't know much about his views

It is a view of mine though.

But in disagreeing with a view that is always best, just label them a Branhamite....or Cambelite. I can assure you I am niether.

I am merely a light :tease

My apologies, I did not mean to label you, I just have a friend who is into Branham, and this is his feeling.

mizpeh
03-08-2007, 11:40 AM
Welcome David,

Glad you could join us.

Chan
03-08-2007, 11:51 AM
Nicene Creed
(fourth century)

We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one Being with the Father. Through him all things were made. For us and for our salvation he came down from heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary, and was made man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered death and was buried. On the third day he rose again in accordance with the Scriptures; he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end.

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father. With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets. We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

Trinitarians believe the Son of God existed as the Son (second person of the Trinity) prior to his birth in Bethlehem. OP's believe Jesus is the Son of God because He was conceived of the Holy Spirit in the womb of the virgin, Mary. And the Holy Spirit is God not an agent of God. Luke 1:35.But you used the Roman Catholic/Protestant version and not the REAL version. The REAL version says "begotten before all worlds."

mizpeh
03-08-2007, 01:57 PM
But you used the Roman Catholic/Protestant version and not the REAL version. The REAL version says "begotten before all worlds."

To some Trinitarians it means the same thing, although I think you believe in the plan of God Christ was begotten before all worlds, just as the lamb was slain before the foundation of the world, is that correct?

tbpew
03-08-2007, 02:45 PM
Tongues as "the initial physical evidence" is nothing more than an assumption being made based mainly on the event in Acts 2. It is not an actual doctrine in scripture. While I do believe that tongues are the initial evidence, it is nothing more than an assumption, i.e. that just because this appears to have been what happened in Acts 2 that this is to be considered the norm. THERE IS NO PASSAGE OF SCRIPTURE THAT SAYS TONGUES IS THE INITIAL EVIDENCE OF THE BAPTISM OF THE HOLY GHOST.
At some point I really hope I learn how to interact with the line of thought that says "No where in the bible does it say [insert any exact set of words strung together]".

We must engage the Spirit to lead us and guide us in the scriptures, otherwise we will be ever studying and never coming into any knowledge of truth.

Many parse the scriptures to wrestle with whether you must be Born Again, then among those, wrestling may involve whether being born again involves a birth of water and a birth of spirit, then among those who believe in a birth of spirit, we will wrestle with whether tongues are an initial physical evidence of this new birth.

Apparently the bible ALONE can be a "party zone" for the wisdom of men and their philosophies to have endless rhetoric. Apparently, the answer involves something more than JUST the SCRIPTURES.

I am hopeful that most of us will come to appreciate the "two key" system God has provided; they that will serve me MUST serve me in Spirit AND in Truth.

freeatlast
03-08-2007, 03:16 PM
My apologies, I did not mean to label you, I just have a friend who is into Branham, and this is his feeling.

Well then I'd say they are right about some things and wrong about some things...just like all the rest of us. :tease

Chan
03-08-2007, 03:19 PM
To some Trinitarians it means the same thing, although I think you believe in the plan of God Christ was begotten before all worlds, just as the lamb was slain before the foundation of the world, is that correct?
Yes, to many Trinitarians it means the same thing. I happen to disagree with them and believe that "eternally begotten" is an oxymoron (because it suggests that not only has the Son been in the process of being begotten throughout all of eternity "past" but will continue to be in the process of being eternally begotten throughout all of eternity "future"). I believe the phrase that was translated "begotten before all worlds" is most likely being used in the same sense that Revelation says the Lamb was slain from before the foundation of the world.

Chan
03-08-2007, 03:33 PM
At some point I really hope I learn how to interact with the line of thought that says "No where in the bible does it say [insert any exact set of words strung together]".

We must engage the Spirit to lead us and guide us in the scriptures, otherwise we will be ever studying and never coming into any knowledge of truth.

Many parse the scriptures to wrestle with whether you must be Born Again, then among those, wrestling may involve whether being born again involves a birth of water and a birth of spirit, then among those who believe in a birth of spirit, we will wrestle with whether tongues are an initial physical evidence of this new birth.

Apparently the bible ALONE can be a "party zone" for the wisdom of men and their philosophies to have endless rhetoric. Apparently, the answer involves something more than JUST the SCRIPTURES.

I am hopeful that most of us will come to appreciate the "two key" system God has provided; they that will serve me MUST serve me in Spirit AND in Truth.We must always be careful about our claim that the Bible says this or that - and I don't mean necessarily a particular combination of words. The fact of the matter is that tongues as the initial evidence of Spirit baptism is an assumption that people are making - an interpretation of scripture. There's nothing wrong with that but we really do need to be clear that what we're saying is really our interpretation of scripture and not the scripture itself. As for this so-called "two key" system, what are you talking about? Where does the Bible say God has provided a "two key" system? Your statement is an example of what I'm talking about. You said God provided a "two key" system yet there is nothing in the Bible that indicates He did any such thing. You must admit that your notion of a "two key" system is really nothing more than your interpretation if scripture.

You said, "We must engage the Spirit to lead us and guide us in the scriptures, otherwise we will be ever studying and never coming into any knowledge of truth." This is apparently a sarcastic barb posted in your objection to my statement "Tongues as "the initial physical evidence" is nothing more than an assumption being made based mainly on the event in Acts 2. It is not an actual doctrine in scripture. While I do believe that tongues are the initial evidence, it is nothing more than an assumption, i.e. that just because this appears to have been what happened in Acts 2 that this is to be considered the norm. THERE IS NO PASSAGE OF SCRIPTURE THAT SAYS TONGUES IS THE INITIAL EVIDENCE OF THE BAPTISM OF THE HOLY GHOST."

Yes, one role of the Spirit is to lead us into all truth. That does not, however, give us the right to claim that the Bible says something it does not say. We might feel a particular interpretation of scripture is what the Spirit is showing us but we must admit that it is still nothing more than an interpretation of scripture. To elevate our interpretations to the level of scripture, as you appear to be suggesting, is essentially the Roman Catholic heresy of elevating Church tradition to (or above) the level of scripture.

I'm sorry that you can't tell the difference between scripture and a mere interpretation of scripture.

tbpew
03-08-2007, 03:59 PM
Chan,
my reply was completely established in years of listening to countless students of the word either use microscopic greek text and tenses OR folks who say, "show me where the bible says".

The two key system (that you assume I invented from interpretation) was based on the witness I included with the statement; they that worship me (I used the word "serve") must worship me in Spirit and Truth.

That, Chan, using my vast skills of interpretation, is TWO things.

The Spirit leading and guiding us in all truth is TWO things at work TOGETHER--TRUTH and SPIRIT.

The letter really does kill, but is the letter BAD? of course not.

That was my point. Thank you for being sorry about my condition involving interpretation.

I have NOT found any way to read words without interpreting their message to me, the reader. Once interpretation is needed, I need to seek the second key (the Spirit) to lead me.

Chan
03-08-2007, 04:30 PM
Chan,
my reply was completely established in years of listening to countless students of the word either use microscopic greek text and tenses OR folks who say, "show me where the bible says".And in so doing, you seemingly presume that it's wrong to insist on being accurate about what the word of God says.

The two key system (that you assume I invented from interpretation) was based on the witness I included with the statement; they that worship me (I used the word "serve") must worship me in Spirit and Truth.Whether you invented it or not, I don't know but I did suggest that it was an interpretation and I understood that the "keys" you were referring to were worshiping God in Spirit and in truth. What I wanted to know was how you got "two keys" out of that passage.


That, Chan, using my vast skills of interpretation, is TWO things.

The Spirit leading and guiding us in all truth is TWO things at work TOGETHER--TRUTH and SPIRIT.
I don't know how vast your interpretation skills are since you're trying to connect the work of the Spirit in leading us into all truth (the scripture says nothing about guiding) to us worshiping God in Spirit and in truth.


The letter really does kill, but is the letter BAD? of course not.
Agreed. However, Paul did not intend this for us to have license to just make up stuff and claim it's what the Bible says.

That was my point. Thank you for being sorry about my condition involving interpretation.

[quote]I have NOT found any way to read words without interpreting their message to me, the reader. Once interpretation is needed, I need to seek the second key (the Spirit) to lead me.What do you mean by interpreting? There is the act of explaining the meaning of something and there is the act of conceiving in the light of individual belief, judgment or circumstance. (See http://209.161.33.50/dictionary/interpret). There is a difference between either one of these and merely comprehending the words one is reading and I think you're confusing reading comprehension with interpretation.

tbpew
03-08-2007, 05:06 PM
And in so doing, you seemingly presume that it's wrong to insist on being accurate about what the word of God says.
......
What do you mean by interpreting? There is the act of explaining the meaning of something and there is the act of conceiving in the light of individual belief, judgment or circumstance. (See http://209.161.33.50/dictionary/interpret). There is a difference between either one of these and merely comprehending the words one is reading and I think you're confusing reading comprehension with interpretation.


Chan, If you think that God's blessing contained within the Holy Scriptures does NOT require interpretation by the reader, I will have to emphatically disagree with you.

Interpretation is the norm rather than the exception. Its a given. Its part of what makes the scriptures divinely inspired.

Just to help set the stage for why I feel this way:

"let your moderation be known unto all men"
INTERPRETATION ESSENTIAL

"that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety"
INTERPRETATION ESSENTIAL

"Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend"
INTERPRETATION ESSENTIAL

"And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast [it] from thee:"
INTREPRETATION ESSENTIAL

"The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:"
INTERPRETATION ESSENTIAL for some!

....and as for "guiding" with leading
Psalms 31 speaks of our great God's blessing in our journey;
For thou art my rock and my fortress; therefore for thy name's sake lead me, and guide me.


I need the Spirit to lead me in all truth.
The truth is the scripture.
Otherwise I will just have a bunch of men to tell me what the bible says and does not say.

mizpeh
03-08-2007, 06:42 PM
Gal. 3:2 The apostle Paul was grieved with those who thought they earned the spirit. Let me paraphrase. "Galatians, please let me know, just how did you got the Holy Ghost? Did you recieve it by any good thing you did, OR BY HEARING THE GOSPEL AND HAVING FAITH?"

Now I know you'll say that all he was speaking to had spoke in tongues. That is an assumption that has no proof in scripture.

Rememeber Faith cometh by hearing. The galatians were reminded that they had heard the gospel, believed the gospel and had thereby received the spirit by faith.

Paul was grieved with those who were getting circumcised and trying to live after the law of Moses after they had been saved by faith in Christ. Paul's question had a clear answer, they RECEIVED the Holy Spirit by the hearing of faith and NOT the works of the law just as you said. Meaning they did not have to be circumcised and keep the law with the keeping of holy days and the like to be saved. After beginning in the Spirit they WERE NOT made perfect by the flesh.

The saints in Galatia RECEIVED the Spirit by faith the same way the apostles did in Acts 2, and the Gentiles did in Acts 10, and the Samaritans did in Acts 8, and the disciples of John in Acts 19 in that they heard the word, believed, and were baptized in the Spirit with the evidence of tongues or some visible manifestation.

Anything we receive of God comes by faith ie: initial faith Ro 12:3 Ac 3:16 , repentance Ro 2:4, the Holy Ghost baptism Gal 3:2, remission of sins, even the life we now live. Ga 2:20.

26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

To become the children of God we must be born again of the water and the Spirit........this takes faith as well. Without faith you won't believe to be baptized etc. Mark 16:16

Ga 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Romans 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

I agree the Galatians received the Spirit by faith and with the witness of the book of Acts the reception of the Spirit was accompanied by a sound, speaking in tongues.

Chan
03-09-2007, 02:12 PM
Chan, If you think that God's blessing contained within the Holy Scriptures does NOT require interpretation by the reader, I will have to emphatically disagree with you.

Interpretation is the norm rather than the exception. Its a given. Its part of what makes the scriptures divinely inspired.

Just to help set the stage for why I feel this way:

"let your moderation be known unto all men"
INTERPRETATION ESSENTIAL

"that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety"
INTERPRETATION ESSENTIAL

"Wherefore, if meat make my brother to offend, I will eat no flesh while the world standeth, lest I make my brother to offend"
INTERPRETATION ESSENTIAL

"And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast [it] from thee:"
INTREPRETATION ESSENTIAL

"The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:"
INTERPRETATION ESSENTIAL for some!

....and as for "guiding" with leading
Psalms 31 speaks of our great God's blessing in our journey;



I need the Spirit to lead me in all truth.
The truth is the scripture.
Otherwise I will just have a bunch of men to tell me what the bible says and does not say.I just want you to acknowledge that it IS interpretation and NOT what the Bible actually says.

tbpew
03-09-2007, 02:38 PM
I just want you to acknowledge that it IS interpretation and NOT what the Bible actually says.

OK, I publicly state to you that:
When interpretation is needed, the interpretation it is NOT what the BIBLE EXACTLY SAYS. Your word was ACTUALLY says, I hope you can accept my use of the word EXACTLY, i.e. VERBATIM.

Since this is what I have been saying all along, this is why I have made the "two key" statement. The bible can not stand alone as a blessing in the readers/hearer's understanding of how to DO what it is ACTUALLY SAYING, IT MUST be understood by the leading of the Spirit.

I credit the unsearchable wisdom of our creator for constructing this system. It is fully consistent with what the word says about his character; that he is NO RESPECTOR of PERSONS.

Returning to one of my examples to further expand on the basis for my statement:
"let your moderation be known unto all men"
That is what the bible exactly(actually) says.
but without interpretation it has NO APPLICATION in the hearer's life!

We look to the context for a setting, but certainly we should ask our father in heaven for wisdom concerning his expectation of what this scripture is commanding us to do and then, do it!
If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all [men] liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. [James 1:5]

what is my moderation?
how do I make it known?
who are all men?

If there was respect of persons with God, a greek scholar or a mensa candidate might approach gaining understanding from this scriptural witness according to the training and/or capabilities of their mind, but a no respecter of persons God simply makes wisdom available to anyone who asks him for it [concerning the understanding that should be possessed].
Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus. [Acts 4:13]

God's word, handled alone, without the Spirit, kills.

Joelel
03-12-2007, 09:25 PM
Hi Joel. When you want to bold something, Hilite it by RIGHT clicking the mouse and dragging it to select the text. Then hit "B".

And Welcome to the forum :ty

Hi Praxeas,You doing fine i pray. Nice seeing you.
Joelel,John