************~T~h~e ~L~a~t~e~s~t**************

[Thad]

Did you hear that some of the Conservatives want to write a resolution to OVERTURN the on that was just Passed at Next Year's General Conference????? JUst recieved word on that Today -

what do you think??


Is it too late ???

[Sam]

Did you hear that some of the Conservatives want to write a resolution to OVERTURN the on that was just Passed at Next Year's General Conference????? JUst recieved word on that Today -

what do you think??


Is it too late ???

Why couldn't they write it up, send it on to the Resolution Committee, and see if it gets presented at next year's GC? If it comes up for a vote next year it would be a legal way to overturn this year's resolution.

[Thad]

THE CONS ARE PLANNING AN OVERTHROW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
WILL IT WORK ??? HOW THEY GONNA GET RID OF ALL THOSE TV SETS NOW??????

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

THE CONS ARE PLANNING AN OVERTHROW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
WILL IT WORK ??? HOW THEY GONNA GET RID OF ALL THOSE TV SETS NOW??????

Do you have one?

:telephone

[Thad]

Why couldn't they write it up, send it on to the Resolution Committee, and see if it gets presented at next year's GC? If it comes up for a vote next year it would be a legal way to overturn this year's resolution.


Sam I seriously don't see how they are going to turn back the hand of time now.

from being allowed to advertise on TV to NOT being allowed??? I highly doubt it

once they allow advertising , all forms of TV ministry will unfold I have not doubts about it

[Thad]

Do you have one?

:telephone


talking about you preachers

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

talking about you preachers

Those of us said to be leaving never had one and never will have one.

As clear as

dn-L


(turn your monitor over if you don't remember that ad slogan)

[CC1]

I could see the following scenario;

1. A bunch of ultra cons let their license lapse at the end of the year.
2. Then they make it known they would seek reinstatement if a resolution
undoing res #4 was passed at next years GC.
3. Might work if enough mods are freaked out at a few hundred ultra cons leaving and decide to perpetuate the facade of "unity" a few more years by caving in.

[Thad]

facade of unity ??? is that what you think of the UPC as a whole ??

[stmatthew]

I truly think what has happened has been for the best. There were to sides that were separated by this issue. This to me is similar to Paul and Barnabas' issue. it was an irreconcilable difference, and they needed to separate.

[HeavenlyOne]

I think it's pathetic.

[Thad]

I truly think what has happened has been for the best. There were to sides that were separated by this issue. This to me is similar to Paul and Barnabas' issue. it was an irreconcilable difference, and they needed to separate.


So then you are for the Body fracturing and splintering off

[Nahum]

How many of them would be for it?

Two, or three?


The horse is out of the barn Thad.

And she's ready to run for quite a distance.

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

How many of them would be for it?

Two, or three?


The horse is out of the barn Thad.

And she's ready to run for quite a distance.

Could be up to 965 per the vote tally!

:sos

[Brett Prince]

How many of them would be for it?

Two, or three?


The horse is out of the barn Thad.

And she's ready to run for quite a distance.

Indeed. I don't think we can go back. I think that doing so could be worse for the org than just trying to shore up things and make sure that what IS in the manual is observed. And by "make sure," I simply mean that district boards need to be sure that they do not license men that HAVE televisions, and that moderates band together against further "developments." I don't believe in a police state.

[CC1]

facade of unity ??? is that what you think of the UPC as a whole ??

Yes. You have ultra cons like some major ones in the Western District not only conducting their own meetings but boycotting the official UPC District meetings.

You have conservative pastors forbidding their saints from going to other UPC churches special events or official UPC district or sectional events because the other churches are not "holy" enough or they don't approve of the music, or the lights. or the video screens, etc, etc.

The result is what I call a facade of unity for sure.

If Res 4 causes some of these conservatives and ultra cons to finally let go and go circle their wagons to do their own thing with those that believe like they do then they will be much happier and unified and so will the UPC that is left.

[Thad]

Indeed. I don't think we can go back. I think that doing so could be worse for the org than just trying to shore up things and make sure that what IS in the manual is observed. And by "make sure," I simply mean that district boards need to be sure that they do not license men that HAVE televisions, and that moderates band together against further "developments." I don't believe in a police state.


Yea i think you are right
BTW, aren't you back in the UPC??

I remember 25 years ago, churches out here were disfellowshipping other churches for having MONITORS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Don't hear much about that anymore- wonder if this will be the same case with all of this say in 10 years ??

[FRINGE_NUTTER]

THAD or anyone else - Question:

Let's suppose that a pastor is the "founding pastor" of a church. It is an affiliated church. He is upset about the passing of Resolution #4. Can he disaffiliate and then have a claim on the property?

Who knows how that would work?

[FRINGE_NUTTER]

Yes. You have ultra cons like some major ones in the Western District not only conducting their own meetings but boycotting the official UPC District meetings.

You have conservative pastors forbidding their saints from going to other UPC churches special events or official UPC district or sectional events because the other churches are not "holy" enough or they don't approve of the music, or the lights. or the video screens, etc, etc.

The result is what I call a facade of unity for sure.


CC1 SCORES ANOTHER HOME RUN!!!

[Thad]

Yes. You have ultra cons like some major ones in the Western District not only conducting their own meetings but boycotting the official UPC District meetings.

You have conservative pastors forbidding their saints from going to other UPC churches special events or official UPC district or sectional events because the other churches are not "holy" enough or they don't approve of the music, or the lights. or the video screens, etc, etc.

The result is what I call a facade of unity for sure.

If Res 4 causes some of these conservatives and ultra cons to finally let go and go circle their wagons to do their own thing with those that believe like they do then they will be much happier and unified and so will the UPC that is left.


Yea you have a point there

I hate it but it's true - we've been living under this Cloud out west for too long and frankly, It's gotton Old

[dizzyde]

Yes. You have ultra cons like some major ones in the Western District not only conducting their own meetings but boycotting the official UPC District meetings.

You have conservative pastors forbidding their saints from going to other UPC churches special events or official UPC district or sectional events because the other churches are not "holy" enough or they don't approve of the music, or the lights. or the video screens, etc, etc.

The result is what I call a facade of unity for sure.

If Res 4 causes some of these conservatives and ultra cons to finally let go and go circle their wagons to do their own thing with those that believe like they do then they will be much happier and unified and so will the UPC that is left.


I have to agree, I am not for disharmony, but the way it has been is not working. There hasn't been harmony in the WD in a long time. If there cannot be an agreement to disagree and coexist, then this is probably the only viable solution. I don't see either side being persuaded, and heaven help you if you are a mod.

There seems to be no ability to pastor your own flock, and to let God worry about what is going on in your brothers.

[Thad]

THAD or anyone else -

Question:

Let's suppose that a pastor is the "founding pastor" of a church. It is an affiliated church. He is upset about the passing of Resolution #4. Can he disaffiliate and then have a claim on the property?

Who knows how that would work?


O boy!! I have heard some Horror Stories about this!

someone who knows the rules of the manual would better explain this one.


I do know that in the last few years, several of the Con churches out here in CA. disafiliated and there was No problems whatsoever. they must have prepared for this the right way ?? Others have done it and it ended up in nasty court battles etc

[dizzyde]

Yea you have a point there

I hate it but it's true - we've been living under this Cloud out west for too long and frankly, It's gotton Old

Very, very old.

[stmatthew]

So then you are for the Body fracturing and splintering off

First, the UPC is not "the Body".


I believe there is a time for the best of all to just move on. When a group can no longer function, and has irreconcilable differences, Yes, they need to separate in order to go forward.

[Thad]

I have to agree, I am not for disharmony, but the way it has been is not working. There hasn't been harmony in the WD in a long time. If there cannot be an agreement to disagree and coexist, then this is probably the only viable solution. I don't see either side being persuaded, and heaven help you if you are a mod.

There seems to be no ability to pastor your own flock, and to let God worry about what is going on in your brothers.


another true californian has spoken


we have both lived the horror have we not ???

[dizzyde]

another true californian has spoken


we have both lived the horror have we not ???

Sad, but true. And amazingly, we are still here!

[FRINGE_NUTTER]

O boy!! I have heard some Horror Stories about this!

someone who knows the rules of the manual would better explain this one.


I do know that in the last few years, several of the Con churches out here in CA. disafiliated and there was No problems whatsoever. they must have prepared for this the right way ?? Others have done it and it ended up in nasty court battles etc

What do you mean, by no problems whatsoever? The org. just let them have the church? That seems highly unlikely. This could mean that the pastor might end of selling the property and putting the money in his pocket. There are some very unscrupulous folks out there sadly. I am not accusing anyone of doing that, just speculating.

Someone who knows the rules, please post.

[FRINGE_NUTTER]

First, the UPC is not "the Body".


I believe there is a time for the best of all to just move on. When a group can no longer function, and has irreconcilable differences, Yes, they need to separate in order to go forward.


So true, stmatthew.

[HeavenlyOne]

First, the UPC is not "the Body".


I believe there is a time for the best of all to just move on. When a group can no longer function, and has irreconcilable differences, Yes, they need to separate in order to go forward.

Don't tell them that! LOL!

[Thad]

First, the UPC is not "the Body".


I believe there is a time for the best of all to just move on. When a group can no longer function, and has irreconcilable differences, Yes, they need to separate in order to go forward.



No one claimed that it was exclusively the body

[mizpeh]

No one claimed that it was exclusively the body

The Whole Gospel to the Whole World by the Whole Church.

[Mrs. LPW]

THAD or anyone else - Question:

Let's suppose that a pastor is the "founding pastor" of a church. It is an affiliated church. He is upset about the passing of Resolution #4. Can he disaffiliate and then have a claim on the property?

Who knows how that would work?

I know from experience in our own district about 10 years ago, that it can go to court and it can get messy and hurtful... and it all comes down to the power of the constitution in each individual church and each individual district. Each church has a constitution... whether it's their own or a "UPC" one... (forgive me, I'm not up on all the legalities) but I do know that the constitution of the church can protect the building etc from a pastor taking it with them when they leave the org.... or it can be weak and the building can be taken.

When our own pastor left the org 10-12 years ago.. whatever it has been now... he didn't take the building.. he went to pastor another church that had separated years before (and taken the building)... and he took about half the congregation with him. Which was much more painful than the building ever going would have been.

But in another church I know the building was "taken" but the courts gave it back. (this happened around the same time)

I hope that if these preachers who feel so strongly about the TV ads want to leave they don't try to take buildings with them. It's painful enough that people are divided without causing court issues.

Now... I also have an honest, not stiving or trying to start anything... but an honest question for all you "CON's" as you've been called.
I want to make a disclaimer first... I don't have a tv... don't want one. Had one a few times in the past few years, and each time got so tired of the ads for beer and commercials that used sex to sell everything from Gillette razers to Cars that we decided for our family and our minds to just not have it. We also have a two year old who takes every little thing in and decided we didn't want it for his sake either. And we're saving money not having it. My parents, who when we were growing up never had one, have one now that gets two channels and they rarely turn it on. They bought it during the begining of the Iraq war to watch the news and now the seldom even watch that.

So.. with that tidbit of info about me in your minds...Could you (the Con's) please explain to me how the internet is any safer or more pure than televisions are? I know for a fact how easy it is to see the dirty, the profane, the sinful on a computer. And yes, you have a history log that people can check on, you can try filters.. but if a weak saint... a struggling saint or even preacher wants to see something, they can see it with much GREATER ease than even on a television set.

And our CON's churches have websites...

Sorry this post is so long...

[Steve Epley]

Won't happen too many cons will leave thus introducing another resolution would be in vain. They might try but the cons see the handwriting on the wall it is over for the cons in the UPC. Elder Ballesterio prophecied this at the San Antonio conf. in 64.

[FRINGE_NUTTER]

Won't happen too many cons will leave thus introducing another resolution would be in vain. They might try but the cons see the handwriting on the wall it is over for the cons in the UPC. Elder Ballesterio prophecied this at the San Antonio conf. in 64.

The Handwriting is on the Wall message?

[Steve Epley]

The Handwriting is on the Wall message?

Yep.

[tv1a]

You ask a con the question, expect to get the legalist answer. Rest assured the decision to allow internet was not a divine directive. If you get a chance read the television prohibition resolution then read the internet resolution a few pages later. They are so similar, yet produce different results. One is a no-no the other is a go-go.

The pro-internet stance was passed for self-serving reasons only. Television couldn't provided that.

I know from experience in our own district about 10 years ago, that it can go to court and it can get messy and hurtful... and it all comes down to the power of the constitution in each individual church and each individual district. Each church has a constitution... whether it's their own or a "UPC" one... (forgive me, I'm not up on all the legalities) but I do know that the constitution of the church can protect the building etc from a pastor taking it with them when they leave the org.... or it can be weak and the building can be taken.

When our own pastor left the org 10-12 years ago.. whatever it has been now... he didn't take the building.. he went to pastor another church that had separated years before (and taken the building)... and he took about half the congregation with him. Which was much more painful than the building ever going would have been.

But in another church I know the building was "taken" but the courts gave it back. (this happened around the same time)

I hope that if these preachers who feel so strongly about the TV ads want to leave they don't try to take buildings with them. It's painful enough that people are divided without causing court issues.

Now... I also have an honest, not stiving or trying to start anything... but an honest question for all you "CON's" as you've been called.
I want to make a disclaimer first... I don't have a tv... don't want one. Had one a few times in the past few years, and each time got so tired of the ads for beer and commercials that used sex to sell everything from Gillette razers to Cars that we decided for our family and our minds to just not have it. We also have a two year old who takes every little thing in and decided we didn't want it for his sake either. And we're saving money not having it. My parents, who when we were growing up never had one, have one now that gets two channels and they rarely turn it on. They bought it during the begining of the Iraq war to watch the news and now the seldom even watch that.

So.. with that tidbit of info about me in your minds...Could you (the Con's) please explain to me how the internet is any safer or more pure than televisions are? I know for a fact how easy it is to see the dirty, the profane, the sinful on a computer. And yes, you have a history log that people can check on, you can try filters.. but if a weak saint... a struggling saint or even preacher wants to see something, they can see it with much GREATER ease than even on a television set.

And our CON's churches have websites...

Sorry this post is so long...

[ChicagoPastor]

Any way we could hear that sermon? Is there a recording of it ??

[CC1]

Won't happen too many cons will leave thus introducing another resolution would be in vain. They might try but the cons see the handwriting on the wall it is over for the cons in the UPC. Elder Ballesterio prophecied this at the San Antonio conf. in 64.

Only took 43 years for his prophecy to come true!!!!

I think I will predict an Earthquake in California.

[Ferd]

I truly think what has happened has been for the best. There were to sides that were separated by this issue. This to me is similar to Paul and Barnabas' issue. it was an irreconcilable difference, and they needed to separate.

That there is some clairty my friend.

lets hope these two decided to mend fences some time in the future like Paul and Barnabas

[CC1]

That there is some clairty my friend.

lets hope these two decided to mend fences some time in the future like Paul and Barnabas

I hope you are not holding your breath.

[chaotic_resolve]

Did you hear that some of the Conservatives want to write a resolution to OVERTURN the on that was just Passed at Next Year's General Conference????? JUst recieved word on that Today -

what do you think??


Is it too late ???

Let them try.

Then let them explain their actions, as they were so critical of the authors of the tv resolution for bringing it up again.

A friend from another board said someone was blaming JMJ for a possible split since he brought the resolution.

Dumb.

If anyone's to blame for people leaving, it's the people leaving. I'm tired of coddling them and having them on the phone trying to make me feel bad, like my desire to use television for evangelism is causing them to leave. It's not.

Get over it. Seriously. I know that's not politically correct and all nice and stuff. But seriously. I got better things to do than hug, coddle and plead to those, like the ones who have been planning their exit for over a year now, to stay in the organization.

I'm tired of it. What happened, happened. I say it's for the best.

I'm not about to force anyone that doesn't want to stay to stay. You want to leave, goodbye. Sorry you've based your entire world on a dumb resolution and now that it's come crashing down you feel like you have to leave.

Perhaps if you had based your world on Jesus, you wouldn't be in this situation, because, unless I missed the memo, He hasn't left the organization.

That's my rant. :lol Love ya'll, but goodbye.

[lisafitzh2o]

Any way we could hear that sermon? Is there a recording of it ??

My brother-in-law is Bro. Ballestero's grandson...I asked him for a copy of that tape.

Elder Epley, were you there for that conference? I hear Bro. Ballestero got a lot of flack after preaching that message.

[Pastor Keith]

Did you hear that some of the Conservatives want to write a resolution to OVERTURN the on that was just Passed at Next Year's General Conference????? JUst recieved word on that Today -

what do you think??


Is it too late ???


I dont think so, I talked to a good friend who was there for the vote, since last year when the measure lost by about 200 votes and this year is passing by almost 100 votes, that is a swing of almost 300 votes in a year that that many think that it didn't have a chance of passing and yet it passed. I don't think that within a year the margin of the pro's will only grow.

[tv1a]

Great all we need on aff is another Nostradamus.

Only took 43 years for his prophecy to come true!!!!

I think I will predict an Earthquake in California.

[ChicagoPastor]

I dont think so, I talked to a good friend who was there for the vote, since last year when the measure lost by about 200 votes and this year is passing by almost 100 votes, that is a swing of almost 300 votes in a year that that many think that it didn't have a chance of passing and yet it passed. I don't think that within a year the margin of the pro's will only grow.

we didn't vote on it last year....

We voted back in 04 about it but I can't remember by how many we lost by...thought it was like 90 votes

[Nahum]

we didn't vote on it last year....

We voted back in 04 about it but I can't remember by how many we lost by...thought it was like 90 votes

200 in Salt Lake

[tv1a]

It may grow if a lot of cons back out. I believe more moderates will vote in favor of tv res when they realize trying to pacify the legalists is like trying to pacify the Iranian president. The want total anihlation and world dominance.

I dont think so, I talked to a good friend who was there for the vote, since last year when the measure lost by about 200 votes and this year is passing by almost 100 votes, that is a swing of almost 300 votes in a year that that many think that it didn't have a chance of passing and yet it passed. I don't think that within a year the margin of the pro's will only grow.

[Pastor Keith]

we didn't vote on it last year....

We voted back in 04 about it but I can't remember by how many we lost by...thought it was like 90 votes


Well when the last time it came up, my tally were estimates, I tend to round up my numbers (I was an evangelist at one time) LOL!

[commonsense]

THAD or anyone else - Question:

Let's suppose that a pastor is the "founding pastor" of a church. It is an affiliated church. He is upset about the passing of Resolution #4. Can he disaffiliate and then have a claim on the property?

Who knows how that would work?

In another state, after we moved, there is a former UPC church that is now independent and they have the building.
I do not have any idea how their by laws were written nor the affiliated/non affiliated part. In a nutshell , their was a 25 yr old UPC church.....; about a dz yrs ago a UPC pastor began to see issues different than the UPC and he gradually changed. He went before the church to tell them he felt led to sever his ties with the UPC. The majority of the congregation supported him and so he pulled out and retained the building.
A few folks left.
In a year or two that pastor moved. In the mean time the UPC saw a city without a UPC work and brought in a pastor supporting him thru Home Missions. Some of the remaining saints decided to return to the UPC and attended the small work meeting in a store front.
Today the UPC group has moved forward and built another building. The independent group still has the building and a small congregation. The UPC group did try to get the** nice paid for building** back. I don't know any details but I'm sure if there was a way to take it back they would have gone to court.

[NLYP]

They can try..but the barn is open....
There is no way they will bring it back to the way it was....

[Steve Epley]

My brother-in-law is Bro. Ballestero's grandson...I asked him for a copy of that tape.

Elder Epley, were you there for that conference? I hear Bro. Ballestero got a lot of flack after preaching that message.

No I was not there but have many friends most of which are dead who were there.

[Hoovie]

My brother-in-law is Bro. Ballestero's grandson...I asked him for a copy of that tape.

Elder Epley, were you there for that conference? I hear Bro. Ballestero got a lot of flack after preaching that message.

No I was not there but have many friends most of which are dead who were there.

Lord have mercy people! WHAT WAS ON THE TAPE!!?? :killinme:killinme

[triumphant1]

THAD or anyone else - Question:

Let's suppose that a pastor is the "founding pastor" of a church. It is an affiliated church. He is upset about the passing of Resolution #4. Can he disaffiliate and then have a claim on the property?

Who knows how that would work?

Any pastor (not just a founding pastor) can disaffiliate the church he pastors with an announced business meeting (with the district super and his prebys acknowledgement and invitation to attend to speak) and a simple majority vote of the registered voters of the congregation.

Once disaffiliated the district has no power over the pulpit or property. The UPC claims to have no power over the property anyway...unless, as in some cases, the district bailed the church out financially at some point in its history and the property was deeded over to the district....that really hasn't happened much since like the 70's.

The claim to the property of an affiliated church is that it MUST BE pastored by a licensed preacher once affiliated. If a preacher turns in his card or loses his license while affiliated, he must vacate the pulpit...so if a man thinks he might leave the UPC....it might be in his best interest to go ahead, talk it over with his church, and call a disaffiliation business meeting if his church wants to go that direction.

[tv1a]

Quote:
Originally Posted by lisafitzh2o http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?p=258033#post258033)
My brother-in-law is Bro. Ballestero's grandson...I asked him for a copy of that tape.

Elder Epley, were you there for that conference? I hear Bro. Ballestero got a lot of flack after preaching that message
.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Epley http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?p=258120#post258120)
No I was not there but have many friends most of which are dead who were there.

Lord have mercy people! WHAT WAS ON THE TAPE!!?? :killinme:killinme

Red Kool Aid stains is my first guess.

[UltraCon]

...if a man thinks he might leave the UPC....it might be in his best interest to go ahead, talk it over with his church, and call a disaffiliation business meeting if his church wants to go that direction.

This is exactely what is happening right now. Several men I know have already mailed out the invitations to the DS and section pres. One has a dissaffliation meeting coming up on Oct 7th. I think there will be lots of churches that are unaffiliated before preacher's dues run out at the first of the year. This is the process we are going through right now. In the city we live in there are over 6 UPC churches so I doubt they send a HM here to replace us. Also, in this district the official only has to be invited to attend the meeting and he is only allowed to speak at the pastor's request. He's really only there to make sure that the vote does happen and that it is the church that is doing to the voting. Our by-laws are also written in way that were have a board of elders that have direct say so in the church and NOT the district. I hope this helps any confused persons out there that think that the UPC is going to take over the conservative churches if the pastor drops out.

As far as there being another resolution I think that is a longshot. I've not heard that from anybody. I think many men will become independent while others will look at the possibility of a new fellowship. I don't think you'll see anything formed after the pattern of the UPC or any other org but maybe a fellowship containing men of like faith. I doubt you'll see an UltraCon headquarters anywhere but there will be men fellowshipping together. I'm waiting myself to see what really does transpire over the next few months. My pastor's pastor is Jerry Green and one of our other elders is LB so he's been in close contact with them about what is going to happen in the future.

On a positive note we had awesome church today. It's not going to be "godless" outside of the UPC ship.

[ChicagoPastor]

This is exactely what is happening right now. Several men I know have already mailed out the invitations to the DS and section pres. One has a dissaffliation meeting coming up on Oct 7th. I think there will be lots of churches that are unaffiliated before preacher's dues run out at the first of the year. This is the process we are going through right now. In the city we live in there are over 6 UPC churches so I doubt they send a HM here to replace us. Also, in this district the official only has to be invited to attend the meeting and he is only allowed to speak at the pastor's request. He's really only there to make sure that the vote does happen and that it is the church that is doing to the voting. Our by-laws are also written in way that were have a board of elders that have direct say so in the church and NOT the district. I hope this helps any confused persons out there that think that the UPC is going to take over the conservative churches if the pastor drops out.

As far as there being another resolution I think that is a longshot. I've not heard that from anybody. I think many men will become independent while others will look at the possibility of a new fellowship. I don't think you'll see anything formed after the pattern of the UPC or any other org but maybe a fellowship containing men of like faith. I doubt you'll see an UltraCon headquarters anywhere but there will be men fellowshipping together. I'm waiting myself to see what really does transpire over the next few months. My pastor's pastor is Jerry Green and one of our other elders is LB so he's been in close contact with them about what is going to happen in the future.

On a positive note we had awesome church today. It's not going to be "godless" outside of the UPC ship.

Trying to say we're now "godless" inside the ship?

I doubt even 50 pastors leave. The Ultra-Cons bluff has been called.
What's sad is that the Ultra-Cons think that people like me voted against God's will.

You all wrote a book, sent it out to every minister, attacked this from every angle, had your time to state your argument to the entire body of ministers and at the end of the day when we DID pray and seek God the vote came out IN FAVOR of the resolution. So wither over 1,000 didn't hear from God, or God DID in fact answer everyone's prayer and we voted HIS will.

[Steve Epley]

Trying to say we're now "godless" inside the ship?

I doubt even 50 pastors leave. The Ultra-Cons bluff has been called.
What's sad is that the Ultra-Cons think that people like me voted against God's will.

You all wrote a book, sent it out to every minister, attacked this from every angle, had your time to state your argument to the entire body of ministers and at the end of the day when we DID pray and seek God the vote came out IN FAVOR of the resolution. So wither over 1,000 didn't hear from God, or God DID in fact answer everyone's prayer and we voted HIS will.

I seriously doubt if God had anything to do with anyone voting either way. Just my opinion.

[ChicagoPastor]

I seriously doubt if God had anything to do with anyone voting either way. Just my opinion.

Elder, the Ultra Cons were telling us that GOD didn't want us to vote this through. They told us to PRAYERFULLY consider our vote.

I probably agree with you. I don't know if God really cares that we're using TV now.

[stmatthew]

I seriously doubt if God had anything to do with anyone voting either way. Just my opinion.


I would tend to agree.

[AmazingGrace]

I dont know whats on the tape either but when my husband gets home I think I will have to ask him to let me hear it!!! He was given a copy of said tape by I think it was whichever Ballestero pastors or did in La???? I cant remember. All I know is he has the tape and it is one of his favs... now yall have me intrigued gotta see whats on it now LOL:hypercoffee

[redeemedcynic84]

Won't happen too many cons will leave thus introducing another resolution would be in vain. They might try but the cons see the handwriting on the wall it is over for the cons in the UPC. Elder Ballesterio prophecied this at the San Antonio conf. in 64.

prophecied what???

and 1964???? seriously???

[Thad]

prophecied what???

and 1964???? seriously???



I think he;s referring to a famous Message called " the hand writing is on the Wall"

funny think is in Eld Ballestero's last years he fellowshiped more with UPC

[Thad]

The Vote did pass by a narrow margin so maybe there is still a glimmer of hope for the cons??

my conclusion still remains- this is here to stay

[redeemedcynic84]

I think he;s referring to a famous Message called " the hand writing is on the Wall"

funny think is in Eld Ballestero's last years he fellowshiped more with UPC

what was exactly prophesied in this message, though???

and isn't the year of that message pre-dating the rule about TV going into effect?? So how could he be prophesying about us getting rid of a rule that didn't exist??

[Thad]

what was exactly prophesied in this message, though???

and isn't the year of that message pre-dating the rule about TV going into effect?? So how could he be prophesying about us getting rid of a rule that didn't exist??


I forgot the content of the message but heard it talked about during my growing years from time to time. It was thought that the message was Prophetic of what was to come of the UPC.

Also it was not long after that the UPC had a split i believe in 1967 and the it was Declared that the UPC had become the Apostate church.

The AMF was formed and those who believed that the UPC had gone worldly, left and joined AMF.

at that time the UPC lost over 400 preachers. I understand that years later, many returned.

[Brett Prince]

Yea i think you are right
BTW, aren't you back in the UPC??

Yes sir.

I remember 25 years ago, churches out here were disfellowshipping other churches for having MONITORS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Don't hear much about that anymore- wonder if this will be the same case with all of this say in 10 years ??

Nope, nor pants, nor cut hair probably.

[Thad]

Yes sir.



Nope, nor pants, nor cut hair probably.


i'm not getting your point about hair and pants

[UltraCon]

Trying to say we're now "godless" inside the ship?

I doubt even 50 pastors leave. The Ultra-Cons bluff has been called.
What's sad is that the Ultra-Cons think that people like me voted against God's will.

You all wrote a book, sent it out to every minister, attacked this from every angle, had your time to state your argument to the entire body of ministers and at the end of the day when we DID pray and seek God the vote came out IN FAVOR of the resolution. So wither over 1,000 didn't hear from God, or God DID in fact answer everyone's prayer and we voted HIS will.

I did not mean to imply that it was "godless" inside the ship. Several good men are in and will always stay inside the UPC, my comment was for the liberals that say "if you get out then you won't have revival", in fact I believe we will have great revival. I know of at least 50 already that are leaving. Some have already turned their cards into their DS with a letter. There are 3 at our church (myself included). This may have been a bluff on some accounts but for some it was a simple fact of if it passes then we get out. I do agree with others, I don't think God was much in that vote at all. You can't get around the fact that the org is not ran by God but it's ran by men. Just because the vote passed doesn't mean it's God's will either. Israel wanted a King, that was NOT God's will but, the people prevailed and got a king. I feel sad for the UPC but I look at it like this, The UPC was here before me and they'll be here after me. Just think, with the cons gone now you can pass whatever you want.

[Pastor Keith]

Many on here would do good to read Romans 14:5-8

5 One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. 8If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.


I find it amazing that two people have differing convictions, they are convinced in their minds they are right and yet God accepts both. Little of what people are fighting over, God is in it.

[Esther]

I seriously doubt if God had anything to do with anyone voting either way. Just my opinion.

I can't imagine why He wouldn't?

[Esther]

I personally can't understand the Cons leaving over this.

IF the resolution has said THEY would have to participate I could understand them leaving, as it is, they don't have to be on TV so the root problem here is more than the TV issue.

IMO

[AmazingGrace]

I have been trying to get ahold of hubby all day... I soooo want to know what this tape contains now! He is sooooooo gonna find it and let me listen to it when he gets home! I will give you a play by play account as soon as I listen!

[HeavenlyOne]

Yes sir.



Nope, nor pants, nor cut hair probably.

Here we go with women's standards again.................

Why is it assumed that men always follow dress standards? Is it because their standards aren't much, if at all, different than the conservative world at large????

[Mrs. LPW]

I seriously doubt if God had anything to do with anyone voting either way. Just my opinion.

Having been in and around the ministry for awhile I imagine that most of the preachers voting had their minds already made up, and very little serious prayer was made on their parts as to which way they would vote.
(not saying no preachers would have prayed about it... just saying I bet if truth were told the majority didn't spend much time before the Lord on it)
Most would have been voting as per their already established beliefs and convictions.

That said, I don't know if God had nothing whatsoever to do with the voting or not, I guess we'll have to ask him in heaven if we still care about the issue when we get there. But I do know from the Word, that he's so much more concerned with getting souls won, than whether or not we advertise on television for our services. The majority of souls won are won by personal testemony, personal evangelism, personal witness... not just seeing an ad and saying.. hmm.. think I'll try there this Sunday. (not saying no one does that)

Jesus won them one by one...

I think, if anything, God would just be tired of us making such huge issues and divisions of things instead of getting off our butts and reaching our neighbours. (I don't think I'm the ultimate soul winner either.. I've still got work to do.)

[Mrs. LPW]

My question to the Con's about the difference (in their opinions) between tv and internet... tv ads, internet ads.... was either accidentally overlooked or completely ignored... on both spots I posted it (here and Fellowship Hall)

Still looking for opinions.

[ChicagoPastor]

I feel sad for the UPC but I look at it like this, The UPC was here before me and they'll be here after me. Just think, with the cons gone now you can pass whatever you want.

:hanky:rooting:yahoo:bliss:bliss:dance:dancing:sho ckamoo
:stars:ty


*thinking to myself* what can we get rid of next???? :killinme
jk

[tv1a]

We all know the 1992 AS was a directive from God Almighty. God may have wanted a little more balance this year.

I did not mean to imply that it was "godless" inside the ship. Several good men are in and will always stay inside the UPC, my comment was for the liberals that say "if you get out then you won't have revival", in fact I believe we will have great revival. I know of at least 50 already that are leaving. Some have already turned their cards into their DS with a letter. There are 3 at our church (myself included). This may have been a bluff on some accounts but for some it was a simple fact of if it passes then we get out. I do agree with others, I don't think God was much in that vote at all. You can't get around the fact that the org is not ran by God but it's ran by men. Just because the vote passed doesn't mean it's God's will either. Israel wanted a King, that was NOT God's will but, the people prevailed and got a king. I feel sad for the UPC but I look at it like this, The UPC was here before me and they'll be here after me. Just think, with the cons gone now you can pass whatever you want.

[tv1a]

legalism
:hanky:rooting:yahoo:bliss:bliss:dance:dancing:sho ckamoo
:stars:ty


*thinking to myself* what can we get rid of next???? :killinme
jk

[dizzyde]

I did not mean to imply that it was "godless" inside the ship. Several good men are in and will always stay inside the UPC, my comment was for the liberals that say "if you get out then you won't have revival", in fact I believe we will have great revival. I know of at least 50 already that are leaving. Some have already turned their cards into their DS with a letter. There are 3 at our church (myself included). This may have been a bluff on some accounts but for some it was a simple fact of if it passes then we get out. I do agree with others, I don't think God was much in that vote at all. You can't get around the fact that the org is not ran by God but it's ran by men. Just because the vote passed doesn't mean it's God's will either. Israel wanted a King, that was NOT God's will but, the people prevailed and got a king. I feel sad for the UPC but I look at it like this, The UPC was here before me and they'll be here after me. Just think, with the cons gone now you can pass whatever you want.


Well, I guess I can rest easy knowing that there are at least "several" left in the entire UPC. SERIOUSLY??????

[CC1]

I did not mean to imply that it was "godless" inside the ship. Several good men are in and will always stay inside the UPC, my comment was for the liberals that say "if you get out then you won't have revival", in fact I believe we will have great revival. I know of at least 50 already that are leaving. Some have already turned their cards into their DS with a letter. There are 3 at our church (myself included). This may have been a bluff on some accounts but for some it was a simple fact of if it passes then we get out. I do agree with others, I don't think God was much in that vote at all. You can't get around the fact that the org is not ran by God but it's ran by men. Just because the vote passed doesn't mean it's God's will either. Israel wanted a King, that was NOT God's will but, the people prevailed and got a king. I feel sad for the UPC but I look at it like this, The UPC was here before me and they'll be here after me. Just think, with the cons gone now you can pass whatever you want.

I don't know any libs that have said if someone gets out of the UPC they won't have revival. Who said that? Or is it just more poppycock with no factual basis?

I don't think many ultra cons "have revival" whether they are in or out of the UPC because they add so many extra biblical requirements to the Gospel not many are willing to suspend the mind God gave them to jump through the hoops.

[tv1a]

Revival is a relative term.

I don't know any libs that have said if someone gets out of the UPC they won't have revival. Who said that? Or is it just more poppycock with no factual basis?

I don't think many ultra cons "have revival" whether they are in or out of the UPC because they add so many extra biblical requirements to the Gospel not many are willing to suspend the mind God gave them to jump through the hoops.

[CC1]

Revival is a relative term.

True. I mean church growth with outside people being converted and born again.

With very few exceptions it seems most ultra con churches stall out at about 200-300. Obviously Joel Holmes is the main exception!

[tv1a]

How many ultra churches can contribute their growth to new converts. Usually ultra churches grow by popping out babies dozens at a time or get people from other churches.

True. I mean church growth with outside people being converted and born again.

With very few exceptions it seems most ultra con churches stall out at about 200-300. Obviously Joel Holmes is the main exception!

[UltraCon]

True. I mean church growth with outside people being converted and born again.

With very few exceptions it seems most ultra con churches stall out at about 200-300. Obviously Joel Holmes is the main exception!

Along with Bro Morton, Bro Booker, Bro Johnny King, Bro Wilson, Bro Jerry Green, and Bro Johnny Godair.

Those same comments can be said about many of the liberal churches. Where I live there are over 6 UPC churches in this city and all the churches have this saint swap program they use to measure growth. At our church we have had only 5 people move in and all of those moved here to be on staff. A few have left to go other places but then most of those have eventually came back. We don't have a lot of people leave but we do pray a lot of people through. Our church is only 3 1/2 years old and it's one of the biggest in the city. If it keeps growing like it has been we'll far exceed 300 in 5 more years.

[UltraCon]

How many ultra churches can contribute their growth to new converts. Usually ultra churches grow by popping out babies dozens at a time or get people from other churches.

What would you know about UC churches? I will agree there are some very dry UC churches but there are very dry liberal churches as well. Everything you say about UC churches can also be said about liberal churches as well. There are those that are revival minded and there are those that are content with 4 and no more. It's crazy to describe a whole sect of churches in one catagory that you don't know anything about.

[bishoph]

Usually ultra churches grow by popping out babies dozens at a time or get people from other churches.

TV1 This is not a factual statement, rather just your personal opinion which you are more than entitled to. There may be a few that operate this way as UC said from both libs and cons. However, most of the UC-Con churches that I know (and I know many) are revival churches with a passion for the lost, and they are seeing many new converts.

I like your idea though, because if the UC churches are only growing by getting people from other churches, it must mean that they aren't getting what they need in the liberal churches and they are finding substance and revival at the UC churches.:poloroid

[philjones]

It may grow if a lot of cons back out. I believe more moderates will vote in favor of tv res when they realize trying to pacify the legalists is like trying to pacify the Iranian president. The want total anihlation and world dominance.

you do understand Jihad, don't you Troy?:hypercoffee

[papapraiz]

I believe that would be Carl Ballestero.

[papapraiz]

I dont know whats on the tape either but when my husband gets home I think I will have to ask him to let me hear it!!! He was given a copy of said tape by I think it was whichever Ballestero pastors or did in La???? I cant remember. All I know is he has the tape and it is one of his favs... now yall have me intrigued gotta see whats on it now LOL:hypercoffee

I believe that would be Carl Ballestero.