Missionaries and Head Coverings in Muslim Countries

[Newman]

I had the opportunity to speak to two different missionaries to two different Muslim areas of the world this past month.

I asked them both similar questions and got different perspectives and noticed different results....

1. What does it mean to the Muslim people for a woman to be uncovered?
Same answer. It says that she is immoral and it brings dishonor to her family... (No equation with submission).

2. Do the missionary women wear head coverings?
Missionary A. NO- People understand that she is a Christian rather than a Muslim.

Missionary B. YES- It is considered immoral not to wear a head covering.

3. Who have you been reaching?

Missionary A. Interestingly enough, the church is made up of foreigners in the area....

Missionary B. The Muslim people

See 1 Corinthians 9:19-22. Food for thought. :cool:

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

Which country was this?

Oh, and Great to see you posting Newman!

[Steve Epley]

I had the opportunity to speak to two different missionaries to two different Muslim areas of the world this past month.

I asked them both similar questions and got different perspectives and noticed different results....

1. What does it mean to the Muslim people for a woman to be uncovered?
Same answer. It says that she is immoral and it brings dishonor to her family... (No equation with submission).

2. Do the missionary women wear head coverings?
Missionary A. NO- People understand that she is a Christian rather than a Muslim.

Missionary B. YES- It is considered immoral not to wear a head covering.

3. Who have you been reaching?

Missionary A. Interestingly enough, the church is made up of foreigners in the area....

Missionary B. The Muslim people

See 1 Corinthians 9:19-22. Food for thought. :cool:

I do not see a problem in wearing a head covering in these situations as long as they were taught AFTER they came in the church that uncut hair is the scriptural God given covering for women in the church.:highfive

[Felicity]

I'm not surprised it's Missionary B who are reaching the Muslim people.

[Newman]

Which country was this?

Oh, and Great to see you posting Newman!

It is better for the missionaries that the countries aren't named. The work is dangerous for sure.

Wish I had the time to stay and play but I just don't have that much time these days... :sad

[Steve Epley]

It is better for the missionaries that the countries aren't named. The work is dangerous for sure.

Wish I had the time to stay and play but I just don't have that much time these days... :sad

My great wisom and abiltity scared you off and I was just starting.:highfive

[BoredOutOfMyMind]

It is better for the missionaries that the countries aren't named. The work is dangerous for sure.

Wish I had the time to stay and play but I just don't have that much time these days... :sad

We had a Missionary last year and the wife was dressed in Traditional Dress. She did a dramatic reading on what it was like to be a Muslim Woman who wanted to come to Christ. It was VERY moving!

[Newman]

I do not see a problem in wearing a head covering in these situations as long as they were taught AFTER they came in the church that uncut hair is the scriptural God given covering for women in the church.:highfive

Hehehe You miss the point.

1. Paul used words like honor and dishonor when he spoke to the Corinthian church about the issue of head coverings. Most assuredly because he was talking to them about their culture.

2. If one wants to reach a particular culture; it is best to adopt the parts of the culture that others view as moral issues. ;)

[Steve Epley]

Hehehe You miss the point.

1. Paul used words like honor and dishonor when he spoke to the Corinthian church about the issue of head coverings. Most assuredly because he was talking to them about their culture.

2. If one wants to reach a particular culture; it is best to adopt the parts of the culture that others view as moral issues. ;)

I can see your not up to a good knock down drag out????? Post more!!!!!:highfive

[Praxeas]

I had the opportunity to speak to two different missionaries to two different Muslim areas of the world this past month.

I asked them both similar questions and got different perspectives and noticed different results....

1. What does it mean to the Muslim people for a woman to be uncovered?
Same answer. It says that she is immoral and it brings dishonor to her family... (No equation with submission).

2. Do the missionary women wear head coverings?
Missionary A. NO- People understand that she is a Christian rather than a Muslim.

Missionary B. YES- It is considered immoral not to wear a head covering.

3. Who have you been reaching?

Missionary A. Interestingly enough, the church is made up of foreigners in the area....

Missionary B. The Muslim people

See 1 Corinthians 9:19-22. Food for thought. :cool:
It would really depend on which Muslim nation. In one case their out reach seems to be perhaps non-muslims from other nations.

In the other case, if they are reaching out to muslims you will probably have a hard time reaching them if you did not wear a covering. In some Muslim nations though a woman better wear a covering of she may be arrested for it. She does not have to wear a full burkha, but a head scarf perhaps

[Steve Epley]

The thing that would scare me about a headcovering would be is there a bomb underneath there?

[Mr. Steinway]

The point is:

Blend in with the culture if you are targeting them for conversion. :bliss

[Newman]

It would really depend on which Muslim nation. In one case their out reach seems to be perhaps non-muslims from other nations.

In the other case, if they are reaching out to muslims you will probably have a hard time reaching them if you did not wear a covering. In some Muslim nations though a woman better wear a covering of she may be arrested for it. She does not have to wear a full burkha, but a head scarf perhaps

Exactly! Who are trying to reach determines what cultural elements you adopt. I wonder what a missionary to America would look like.... :heeheehee

[Steve Epley]

The point is:

Blend in with the culture if you are targeting them for conversion. :bliss

What if you had a burden for a nudist colony??????????????????? Preach them the bare truth!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Uncover the hidden!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Reveal the secret!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Let go and???????????????????????????????

[Praxeas]

Exactly! Who are trying to reach determines what cultural elements you adopt. I wonder what a missionary to America would look like.... :heeheehee
Backwards baseball cap...pants drooping past their rear ends?

[Praxeas]

What if you had a burden for a nudist colony??????????????????? Preach them the bare truth!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Uncover the hidden!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Reveal the secret!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Let go and???????????????????????????????
preach modesty...tell them to at least wear a G-string? :killinme

[Felicity]

The point is:

Blend in with the culture if you are targeting them for conversion. :blissYeah, but you'd be surprised how many aren't willing to do that. And the nationals ..... i.e. the people you are trying to reach .... pick up on it real quick. I know because they've shared with us that they can see the difference in the attitude and spirit of missionaries. They know when they're truly loved, and part of that is willingness to identify with the parts of their culture that are not anti-God or ungodly.

However, I'm sure this isn't exactly what Newman was desiring discussion to be centered around. :)

[Mr. Steinway]

What if you had a burden for a nudist colony??????????????????? Preach them the bare truth!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Uncover the hidden!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Reveal the secret!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Let go and???????????????????????????????

hahahaha! You're HOT tonight, bishop! :)

[Steve Epley]

Exactly! Who are trying to reach determines what cultural elements you adopt. I wonder what a missionary to America would look like.... :heeheehee

MIssionaries are called pastors and evengelists go tomorrow and SEE!:tease
We have been evangelizing America for a 100 years. So far so good.:highfive

[Steve Epley]

Church in the morning I am going to bed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I must to blend in with the culture the culture demands me to go to bed!!!!!!!! I am a culture kind of guy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:tease


Very cultured!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:highfive

[Newman]

Yeah, but you'd be surprised how many aren't willing to do that. And the nationals ..... i.e. the people you are trying to reach .... pick up on it real quick. I know because they've shared with us that they can see the difference in the attitude and spirit of missionaries. They know when they're truly loved, and part of that is willingness to identify with the parts of their culture that are not anti-God or ungodly.

However, I'm sure this isn't exactly what Newman was desiring discussion to be centered around. :)

Well, actually it was... 1 Corinthians is a powerful book about influencing the world and various cultures for the Kingdom of Christ. The missionaries response to culture and the cultures response to the missionaries is very interesting on many levels. :cool:

[Michael The Disciple]

Actually Christian Women should wear the head covering when praying or prophesying because God wills it. Not at all that the Corinthian culture practiced it.

Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonors his head. 11:5 But every woman praying or prophesying with her head unveiled dishonors her head. For it is one and the same thing as if she were shaved.

Islamic women are not ashamed to wear a veil. Why should Christian women be?

[Praxeas]

Well, actually it was... 1 Corinthians is a powerful book about influencing the world and various cultures for the Kingdom of Christ. The missionaries response to culture and the cultures response to the missionaries is very interesting on many levels. :cool:
If this is just about culture why say "her hair is given to her for a covering"? Who gave it? The Mayer of Corinth?

[Felicity]

Well, actually it was... 1 Corinthians is a powerful book about influencing the world and various cultures for the Kingdom of Christ. The missionaries response to culture and the cultures response to the missionaries is very interesting on many levels. :cool: Yes, I agree.

[Felicity]

Actually Christian Women should wear the head covering when praying or prophesying because God wills it. Not at all that the Corinthian culture practiced it.

Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonors his head. 11:5 But every woman praying or prophesying with her head unveiled dishonors her head. For it is one and the same thing as if she were shaved.

Islamic women are not ashamed to wear a veil. Why should Christian women be?:nah

[Thad]

The Head covering issue is very interesting to me because our church is right next store to an Apostolic church that REQUIRES their women to wear head coverings.
we sung on Program at a local college here last sunday and their choir sung to. there they marched up, all the women in their white lacey head coverings.

you would think they would not want to have ANY association with muslim beliefs ! ! I'd be embarrassed if I was them ! and I go out of my way to explain to outsiders that we are NOT with that church!!!!!

[JN Anderson]

I had the opportunity to speak to two different missionaries to two different Muslim areas of the world this past month.

I asked them both similar questions and got different perspectives and noticed different results....

1. What does it mean to the Muslim people for a woman to be uncovered?
Same answer. It says that she is immoral and it brings dishonor to her family... (No equation with submission).

2. Do the missionary women wear head coverings?
Missionary A. NO- People understand that she is a Christian rather than a Muslim.

Missionary B. YES- It is considered immoral not to wear a head covering.

3. Who have you been reaching?

Missionary A. Interestingly enough, the church is made up of foreigners in the area....

Missionary B. The Muslim people

See 1 Corinthians 9:19-22. Food for thought. :cool:

Newman:

I believe that it can be understood that Muslims, while clearly having long veil usages, are set apart from a Jewish culture because, for them, the veil was not a long used custom. It was rarely, if ever, used. As you know I can provide some references if you need. Therefore, I think you have a comparison flaw here, if you are wanting to work this, in some sense, into our paradigm of 1 Corinthians 11. Good to see you posting here though.

[JN Anderson]

Actually Christian Women should wear the head covering when praying or prophesying because God wills it. Not at all that the Corinthian culture practiced it.

Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonors his head. 11:5 But every woman praying or prophesying with her head unveiled dishonors her head. For it is one and the same thing as if she were shaved.

Islamic women are not ashamed to wear a veil. Why should Christian women be?

?:dunno?

?:dunno?

?:dunno?

:killinme

[Praxeas]

The Head covering issue is very interesting to me because our church is right next store to an Apostolic church that REQUIRES their women to wear head coverings.
we sung on Program at a local college here last sunday and their choir sung to. there they marched up, all the women in their white lacey head coverings.

you would think they would not want to have ANY association with muslim beliefs ! ! I'd be embarrassed if I was them ! and I go out of my way to explain to outsiders that we are NOT with that church!!!!!

Thad....you know Christians were wearing head coverings before there was a Muslim....Head coverings actually have been worn by Christian women for centuries even until recent times..

[Newman]

If this is just about culture why say "her hair is given to her for a covering"? Who gave it? The Mayer of Corinth?

I believe Paul was speaking of 2 issues pertaining to women directly tied to being an effective witness in Corinth.

Moral women would have long hair and a head covering in contrast to temple prostitutes with shaved heads and high class prostitutes with uncovered heads.

It was a glory to her to have long hair in the same vein as a white wedding gown traditionally carried symbolic meaning.

[Newman]

Newman:

I believe that it can be understood that Muslims, while clearly having long veil usages, are set apart from a Jewish culture because, for them, the veil was not a long used custom. It was rarely, if ever, used. As you know I can provide some references if you need. Therefore, I think you have a comparison flaw here, if you are wanting to work this, in some sense, into our paradigm of 1 Corinthians 11. Good to see you posting here though.

To me a veil is a face covering. Are we both speaking of head coverings?

I am unaware of any scholars that believe that married Jewish women did not cover their heads with a head covering. (As an issue of modesty).

[JN Anderson]

To me a veil is a face covering. Are we both speaking of head coverings?

I am unaware of any scholars that believe that married Jewish women did not cover their heads with a head covering. (As an issue of modesty).

IMO, a head covering, if one is TRULY part of the 1 Cor. 11 discourse, is indeed what is being talked of and not a veil or doiley as we see it practically related currently. I do not think it can be proven that Jewish women wore head coverings daily. There were usually other conditions (marriage, mourning, bethrothal, etc.) involved. Head coverings for many Jewish women, in public worship, simply covered the hair portion only. As it regards the Pauline text I think, if we believe it to be a subject, it is a temporal custom due to newly converted women from the Aphrodite Temple. I do not think it was universal.

[Michael The Disciple]

Thad....you know Christians were wearing head coverings before there was a Muslim....Head coverings actually have been worn by Christian women for centuries even until recent times..

Trur because they were being obedient to Apostolic doctrine. The wearing of headcovering for Christian women only began to slide about 100 years ago. Until then if women did not cover with a veil they covered with a hat. This is easily proved historically.

[JN Anderson]

It cannot be proven, from scripture, that a female believer MUST or SHOULD wear a material covering, of any type, in order to pray or participate in public worship. If it can, then I await the evidence.

[Hoovie]

Thad....you know Christians were wearing head coverings before there was a Muslim....Head coverings actually have been worn by Christian women for centuries even until recent times..

Very true - and a fact that appears to be little known among Pentecostals. Funny how history is either ignored or rewritten in a matter of decades.

This morning we had a visitor attend church with us that was wearing a material covering.

[Newman]

Very true - and a fact that appears to be little known among Pentecostals. Funny how history is either ignored or rewritten in a matter of decades.



In fact; many heathen cultures were wearing head coverings before Christians and Muslims (as an issue of modesty for the wives who would bear legal children as opposed to the prostitutes). ;)

[Hoovie]

In fact; many heathen cultures were wearing head coverings before Christians and Muslims (as an issue of modesty for the wives who would bear legal children as opposed to the prostitutes). ;)



I have no reason to doubt this either seeing the custom was present in the old testament.

[Praxeas]

Trur because they were being obedient to Apostolic doctrine. The wearing of headcovering for Christian women only began to slide about 100 years ago. Until then if women did not cover with a veil they covered with a hat. This is easily proved historically.
Well I don't know how much of it was based,. historically speaking, on what Paul wrote. I think it was really part of the middle eastern culture for women and they carried that over into the church as well. Im not saying no woman wore a covering because of what Paul taught. Rather what Im saying is that some did not need to know what Paul taught in order to wear a head covering.

[Felicity]

I'd like to see Newman and Sab come to a conclusion re the use/need of a veil/head covering. Can there be agreement regarding this matter even if we can't find it re hair cutting?

Why is this SUCH a controversial & confusing issue? LOL. Does it really need to be?

It's been debated, argued and discussed ever since I can remember with hardly half a dozen people (if that many) reaching agreement on the several points Paul made in his letter to the Corinthians.

[Steve Epley]

The ONLY defined covering in 1 Cor. 11 is long (let her hair grow) hair!!!!! No hat in this chapter whatsoever. The covering is given by God not man.

[Chan]

I had the opportunity to speak to two different missionaries to two different Muslim areas of the world this past month.

I asked them both similar questions and got different perspectives and noticed different results....

1. What does it mean to the Muslim people for a woman to be uncovered?
Same answer. It says that she is immoral and it brings dishonor to her family... (No equation with submission).

2. Do the missionary women wear head coverings?
Missionary A. NO- People understand that she is a Christian rather than a Muslim.

Missionary B. YES- It is considered immoral not to wear a head covering.

3. Who have you been reaching?

Missionary A. Interestingly enough, the church is made up of foreigners in the area....

Missionary B. The Muslim people

See 1 Corinthians 9:19-22. Food for thought. :cool:Since Muslims tend to consider unconvered women to be dressing like ***** (or, to put it more delicately, to be immodest), is immodesty a message that Christianity wants to send when trying to reach Muslims with the gospel?

[Michael The Disciple]

The ONLY defined covering in 1 Cor. 11 is long (let her hair grow) hair!!!!! No hat in this chapter whatsoever. The covering is given by God not man.

The NATURAL covering is given by God. The covering of which Paul writes is applicable only when a woman prays or prophesies. Can she at will choose each time she prays or prophesies to put her hair on or take it off?

I read some apocraphyl literature years ago that showed the reason woman began originally wearing veils was as a sign to the evil angels that they were faithful to their husbands and were not interested in them. Wish I could find that again.

[Steve Epley]

The NATURAL covering is given by God. The covering of which Paul writes is applicable only when a woman prays or prophesies. Can she at will choose each time she prays or prophesies to put her hair on or take it off?

I read some apocraphyl literature years ago that showed the reason woman began originally wearing veils was as a sign to the evil angels that they were faithful to their husbands and were not interested in them. Wish I could find that again.

Paul wrote the first 14 verses and HE defined the above covering he wrote about I don't need an apocraphyl literature I have Paul the author. The governing was in church women were to have their head covered for various reasons and he defined it as long(let her hair grow) hair NOT a hat!

[Praxeas]

Can she at will choose each time she prays or prophesies to put her hair on or take it off?

She can wear it like a veil or not wear it like a veil...In other words she can pile it up on her head or she can let it hang down

[Michael The Disciple]

She can wear it like a veil or not wear it like a veil...In other words she can pile it up on her head or she can let it hang down

You are kidding of course?

[Praxeas]

You are kidding of course?
You asked a question right? if her hair is a veil like covering, the there is one possible way she can wear it like a veil only when praying...wear it down as opposed to up. No, I was not kidding.

Second of all there is not one thing in what Paul wrote to suggest she should remove her covering when not praying or prophesying...His only point was that she should be covered while praying or prophesying. So the standard argument about how she would remove her veil if it is her hair is a logical fallacy that assumes something Paul did not write to begin with

[JN Anderson]

Since Muslims tend to consider unconvered women to be dressing like ***** (or, to put it more delicately, to be immodest), is immodesty a message that Christianity wants to send when trying to reach Muslims with the gospel?

They also believe the Koran holds authoritative precedence over the Bible. Should we compromise that too? Geez. Bad logic. :killinme

[JN Anderson]

The ONLY defined covering in 1 Cor. 11 is long (let her hair grow) hair!!!!! No hat in this chapter whatsoever. The covering is given by God not man.

I totally agree.

[JN Anderson]

I'd like to see Newman and Sab come to a conclusion re the use/need of a veil/head covering. Can there be agreement regarding this matter even if we can't find it re hair cutting?

Why is this SUCH a controversial & confusing issue? LOL. Does it really need to be?

It's been debated, argued and discussed ever since I can remember with hardly half a dozen people (if that many) reaching agreement on the several points Paul made in his letter to the Corinthians.

Felicity:

I have no intention of gettig into a flame war. I will debate this issue though, if anyone is willing. However, we may have wore that horse out. Also, my main point has been that Newman recognize that hair is a pluasible subject, as a material headdress is, in the first part of 1 Corinthians 11. I have listed at least three references to prove that.

[Chan]

They also believe the Koran holds authoritative precedence over the Bible. Should we compromise that too? Geez. Bad logic. :killinmeWho said anything about compromise? When is being MODEST ever a compromise? The Bible teaches women to wear modest apparel. The way Muslim women dress (covered essentially from head to toe) would certainly fall within the realm of "modest."

You might want to re-think your nonsensical position.

[Chan]

You asked a question right? if her hair is a veil like covering, the there is one possible way she can wear it like a veil only when praying...wear it down as opposed to up. No, I was not kidding.

Second of all there is not one thing in what Paul wrote to suggest she should remove her covering when not praying or prophesying...His only point was that she should be covered while praying or prophesying. So the standard argument about how she would remove her veil if it is her hair is a logical fallacy that assumes something Paul did not write to begin withAgreed. It seems more likely that Paul was referring to a literal veil or head covering in addition to the woman's long hair.