PAW Is Crumbling!!!Bishop Noel Jones is leaving too!

[Thad]

Got word today that Bishop Jones, Pastor of City of Refuge in los Angeles Announced to his church that he is leaving the PAW.

It was posted on the forum last week that Braizer was leaving. he has a church of 25,000 members in chicago.

So, the 2 largest churches are leaving and a lot of pastors that look up to these 2 are leaving also.


The PAW is going Thru a MAJOR Shaking!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


what part of it is, Braizer and Jones wants the PAW to become mainstream. they started inviting Non - ONeness speakers to their National convention which has caused a firestorm.

most of the Major Oneness orgs are going thru a hugh shift, sift & shaking

what in the world is going on ???

[Joseph Miller]

EVERY THING that can be shaken will be shaken.

[Thad]

EVERY THING that can be shaken will be shaken.


That's exactly what i am seeing wow!

I talked to a COGIC Evangelist tonight- her son comes and sits in our choir rehearsals and the things she was telling me they are going thru too- I was like " you guys too??". actually, theirs is probably Worse!!

[Joseph Miller]

Who is the Bishop of COGIC now?

[Thad]

Who is the Bishop of COGIC now?



Bishop Charles Blake of LOs Angeles. He pastors the 22,000 member West Angeles cathedral COGIC in L.A
he's the interm Bishop- there's some skeleton's they are digging out of his closet that ...... well, it's not good.
I'm going to be at his church next wednesday night. their church is putting on a free concert with Kurt carr, Ty Tribett, mary mary and .... if forgot who else right now.

[Joseph Miller]

Bishop Charles Blake of LOs Angeles. He pastors the 22,000 member West Angeles cathedral COGIC in L.A
he's the interm Bishop- there's some skeleton's they are digging out of his closet that ...... well, it's not good.
I'm going to be at his church next wednesday night. their church is putting on a free concert with Kurt carr, Ty Tribett, mary mary and .... if forgot who else right now.

Sounds like a great concert.

As far as skeletons go, I say that the guy with out any is the only one who can expose the ones that others have.

[Thad]

Sounds like a great concert.

As far as skeletons go, I say that the guy with out any is the only one who can expose the ones that others have.


i wouldn't doubt it one bit. the things I hear going on in the PAW and COGIC make the UPC look like angels!!! lol seriously

[Joseph Miller]

i wouldn't doubt it one bit. the things I hear going on in the PAW and COGIC make the UPC look like angels!!! lol seriously

I know that. I have known that for a long time. I have preached for both groups. I have friends in both groups.

[Thad]

what is that you've heard ??

you can use initials

[Joseph Miller]

I have heard that NJ has had charges of homosexuality against him for years.

I know of one local PAW pastor that got a girl friend, divorced and remarried (in that order) and never had to give up his church or have his license pulled.

[Thad]

I have heard that NJ has had charges of homosexuality against him for years.

I know of one local PAW pastor that got a girl friend, divorced and remarried (in that order) and never had to give up his church or have his license pulled.

I think NJ must swing. he was just at a movie premier in L.A for the new "tyler perry" film- can't rememebr the title. anyways, there was a lot going on there.
we have 2 general board members here . one just had a love child by a 15 year old and the other was turned in for beating his wife. the odd thing is, the people just roll right over it like it's nothing- Amazing!!!!

[Joseph Miller]

I think NJ must swing. he was just at a movie premier in L.A for the new "tyler perry" film- can't rememebr the title. anyways, there was a lot going on there.
we have 2 general board members here . one just had a love child by a 15 year old and the other was turned in for beating his wife. the odd thing is, the people just roll right over it like it's nothing- Amazing!!!!

He may swing then.

Can't the state get involved if a grown man is having relations with a 15 year old?

[Thad]

He may swing then.

Can't the state get involved if a grown man is having relations with a 15 year old?

Yes but he is the Bishop Joe and in COGIC they are looked up to like deities. the mother of this girl threatend to squeal so he paid her a large sum of money.

[Joseph Miller]

Yes but he is the Bishop Joe and in COGIC they are looked up to like deities. the mother of this girl threatend to squeal so he paid her a large sum of money.

NJ ain't COGIC.

The COGIC pastor in the town I am from is facing charges of relations with a minor.

[Thad]

NJ ain't COGIC.

The COGIC pastor in the town I am from is facing charges of relations with a minor.

I know NJ is not COGIC.

i got what you was saying

[Joseph Miller]

I know NJ is not COGIC.

i got what you was saying

I think it is sad to see what is happening in the PAW.

[Thad]

I think it is sad to see what is happening in the PAW.

yea it really is. I have friends from way back who are PAW. in fact, I've gone to 3 of their natl. conventions in last few years and thought to myself " you've got to be kidding!" . I just left with such an empty feeling
. not to say that upc is perfect or problem free buuuuut........

[Evang.Benincasa]

Got word today that Bishop Jones, Pastor of City of Refuge in los Angeles Announced to his church that he is leaving the PAW.

It was posted on the forum last week that Braizer was leaving. he has a church of 25,000 members in chicago.

So, the 2 largest churches are leaving and a lot of pastors that look up to these 2 are leaving also.


The PAW is going Thru a MAJOR Shaking!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


what part of it is, Braizer and Jones wants the PAW to become mainstream. they started inviting Non - ONeness speakers to their National convention which has caused a firestorm.

most of the Major Oneness orgs are going thru a hugh shift, sift & shaking

what in the world is going on ???

Is this news? When did all this become a hot topic? This is old news and PAW, crumbled along time ago. There are some solid Brothers who still believe in One God and holiness and Acts 2:38 but that is few.

[Thad]

Is this news? When did all this become a hot topic? This is old news and PAW, crumbled along time ago. There are some solid Brothers who still believe in One God and holiness and Acts 2:38 but that is few.


when you say "crumbled a long time ago" I'm assuming you are referring to the standards ?? if so, yes, the majority no longer abide by the dress code.

however, what is happening now, as far as the major players leaving is Huge News.

[Evang.Benincasa]

when you say "crumbled a long time ago" I'm assuming you are referring to the standards ?? if so, yes, the majority no longer abide by the dress code.

however, what is happening now, as far as the major players leaving is Huge News.


They have had churches that have been preaching Three god preachers for a while. It was more than standards. Hey can anyone name me 10 PAW preachers who made the big time on National Television?

[Thad]

They have had churches that have been preaching Three god preachers for a while. It was more than standards. Hey can anyone name me 10 PAW preachers who made the big time on National Television?


yea you're right however, Last year they had their National convention in Los Angeles. I went to it because it was fairly close. One night the guest was the Bishop of the COGIC. to my surprise, the people did a "walk out" I heard that about 70% of the poeple walked out.
the last night they had Sister Jaunita Bynum as the speaker but she cancelled at the last minute- maybe she got word that there had been a protest a few nights before ?

as far as the 10 famous preachers? i don't think i could name that many but there are a few.

[Pastor Keith]

yea you're right however, Last year they had their National convention in Los Angeles. I went to it because it was fairly close. One night the guest was the Bishop of the COGIC. to my surprise, the people did a "walk out" I heard that about 70% of the poeple walked out.
the last night they had Sister Jaunita Bynum as the speaker but she cancelled at the last minute- maybe she got word that there had been a protest a few nights before ?

as far as the 10 famous preachers? i don't think i could name that many but there are a few.

What I heard about a PAW church down south is pretty sad, my intern who worked the summer said that the church was filled with old people and young single mothers with many kids, very few if no young married couples.

No slam on the authentic, God called musicians, but he said all the music people slept around, father many children with various mothers, collected a check and left without being moved by God or the word.

[Sandra]

Who is the Bishop of COGIC now?

Bishop Horace Smith, he is from Chicago.

I will be at Braziers ( PAW)in Chicago December 14th doing a Christmas Concert.
I am very excited the Chicago Symphony will doing my music.
Brazier did announce he is leaving the PAW.

[Whole Hearted]

Got word today that Bishop Jones, Pastor of City of Refuge in los Angeles Announced to his church that he is leaving the PAW.

It was posted on the forum last week that Braizer was leaving. he has a church of 25,000 members in chicago.

So, the 2 largest churches are leaving and a lot of pastors that look up to these 2 are leaving also.


The PAW is going Thru a MAJOR Shaking!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


what part of it is, Braizer and Jones wants the PAW to become mainstream. they started inviting Non - ONeness speakers to their National convention which has caused a firestorm.

most of the Major Oneness orgs are going thru a hugh shift, sift & shaking

what in the world is going on ???


IT'S CALLED THE END TIME

We are living in the last days

[chseeads]

Bishop Horace Smith, he is from Chicago.


Is the PAW presiding bishop, rather than COGIC.

[SoCaliUPC]

Bishop Charles Blake of LOs Angeles. He pastors the 22,000 member West Angeles cathedral COGIC in L.A
he's the interm Bishop- there's some skeleton's they are digging out of his closet that ...... well, it's not good.
I'm going to be at his church next wednesday night. their church is putting on a free concert with Kurt carr, Ty Tribett, mary mary and .... if forgot who else right now.

Really??? V-Lo going to be there? I might have to go up for that.

[Sacerdotal]

Brazier and Jones leaving the PAW may in fact be a Godsend for them. The PAW has been compromised on issues of doctrine and worldliness for a long time. It is no secret that they have had two years of protest at their National Convocation because of false doctrine being the guest speakers.

That is IMO a great slap in the face of the faithful ministers that have been true to the message for years. The PAW once had the greatest preachers alive and their history was rich with true doctrine preachers.

Until recently I have been around the PAW for years. Nobody can know their history and point to their present state and consider it progress. How can hobnobbing with Hollywood, promoting false doctrine and perversion in their music departments be progress when it has destroyed a once strong organization?

Many of their men don't even believe the Apostolic doctrine and some of their churches are now pastored by trinitarians.

[Thad]

Really??? V-Lo going to be there? I might have to go up for that.



I'll send you an email

[Ferd]

I hope the rest of the Hairy Ticks leave too! They need to get the presideing prelate to take off also!

[Thad]

Brazier and Jones leaving the PAW may in fact be a Godsend for them. The PAW has been compromised on issues of doctrine and worldliness for a long time. It is no secret that they have had two years of protest at their National Convocation because of false doctrine being the guest speakers.

That is IMO a great slap in the face of the faithful ministers that have been true to the message for years. The PAW once had the greatest preachers alive and their history was rich with true doctrine preachers.

Until recently I have been around the PAW for years. Nobody can know their history and point to their present state and consider it progress. How can hobnobbing with Hollywood, promoting false doctrine and perversion in their music departments be progress when it has destroyed a once strong organization?

Many of their men don't even believe the Apostolic doctrine and some of their churches are now pastored by trinitarians.

okay, but the thing is ,Braizer is the man who keeps PAW afloat finanacially. that's how it's going to hurt. also,because Jones is so successful, the younger generation will likley follow his example.
I do know too that Braizer has pushed "eternal security" for years.

I doubt if any of their churches are pastored by outright trinitarians

[Thad]

I hope the rest of the Hairy Ticks leave too! They need to get the presideing prelate to take off also!


Horace Smith is siding with Braizer from what i was told- now that is like WOW! a big mess! IF your top leader is siding with those who are leaving, what signal does that send to the rest of the body?? WHY should they stay?

[Sandra]

I love Bishop Brazier and Bishop Noel Jones, PAW will never be the same. These are great men of God. Not really concerned why they left, just content in knowing they are wise men and they hear from God.

[Ferd]

I love Bishop Brazier and Bishop Noel Jones, PAW will never be the same. These are great men of God. Not really concerned why they left, just content in knowing they are wise men and they hear from God.

Thank God!


The PAW needs to not EVER be the same. these guys need to join some baptist organization.

GT Haywood has finnallly stopped turning over in his grave.

The PAW is a great organizaiton that needs to return to its former glory. Big churches with empty messages are NOT the answer!!!!

[Ferd]

Horace Smith is siding with Braizer from what i was told- now that is like WOW! a big mess! IF your top leader is siding with those who are leaving, what signal does that send to the rest of the body?? WHY should they stay?

I am hoping this is a signal that the old guard is flexing a little muscle and intends to move the organization back to being Apostolic.

[Thad]

Thank God!


The PAW needs to not EVER be the same. these guys need to join some baptist organization.

GT Haywood has finnallly stopped turning over in his grave.

The PAW is a great organizaiton that needs to return to its former glory. Big churches with empty messages are NOT the answer!!!!


so i take it you don't care much for Jones and braizer??


I wonder what chuckie Ellis will do ?? he has the other Large PAW church in Detroit.

HIs uncle had a great church in chicago but is serving time in prison

[Thad]

I am hoping this is a signal that the old guard is flexing a little muscle and intends to move the organization back to being Apostolic.


standards too ???

[Ferd]

standards too ???

Thad, on standards, I think there should be room for a wide range. On doctrine, I have adovated that the UPCI allow PCI and PAJC views.

however Brazier and the rest of these guys have abandoned Oneness doctrine, and have embraced all manner of false doctrine that have been rejected by every stripe of Apostolic movements.


I believe that we need to be inclusive of the Pan-Apostolic movement but when a guys quits being Apostolic, we dont have to continue being inclusive.

[ThePastorsCoach]

They have had churches that have been preaching Three god preachers for a while. It was more than standards. Hey can anyone name me 10 PAW preachers who made the big time on National Television?

That is a lie. I have never heard anyone preach that there are "Three God's and you have not either.

[Thad]

That is a lie. I have never heard anyone preach that there are "Three God's and you have not either.


I think this is a Oneness reference to Trinitarian teaching - no ?

[Esther]

EVERY THING that can be shaken will be shaken.

Amen!

[Steadfast]

okay, but the thing is ,Braizer is the man who keeps PAW afloat finanacially. that's how it's going to hurt. also,because Jones is so successful, the younger generation will likley follow his example.
I do know too that Braizer has pushed "eternal security" for years.

I doubt if any of their churches are pastored by outright trinitarians

Thad,

I believe it to be true. Before Bishop Morris Golder (one of my favorite preachers) passed away he spoke to us openly about the condition of the PAW and said that they were, at that present time, averaging either (a) one Church a month electing a trinitarian Pastor or (b) one PAW preacher a month taking the Pastorate of a trinitarian Church.

Remis Wright from a Baptist Church in Houston is a good example of that. He, himself, was a Golder disciple.

The numbers may have slightly changed but, sincerely, in a few more years - short of a drastic change - you'll not see a nickel's difference in a truth preaching PAW and a false doctrine preaching COGIC. In most areas you can't tell a difference already.

[Steadfast]

I am hoping this is a signal that the old guard is flexing a little muscle and intends to move the organization back to being Apostolic.

(Did I already say how much I like this guy?) :hypercoffee

[ThePastorsCoach]

I think this is a Oneness reference to Trinitarian teaching - no ?

Then why not just use the divisive terms - Oneness and Trinitarian instead of the inflammatory terms - Jesus Only and Three God Preachers. I absolutely hate it when I hear either one. I was NEVER a Trinitarian or Three God Preacher and I never claimed the Oneness or Jesus Only label. We all know how unchristian it is to use such divisive language.

We should be Bible Preachers. My theological upbringing was the Trinity and I was baptized in the F/S/HG formula in my young life. When I saw that the only way the NT believers were baptized was using the name of Jesus as identification with the Messiah and Anointed one - I was baptized in the Name of Jesus Christ. I have never baptized any one any other way - even in the COGOP and A/G except in the Name of Jesus Christ. That is not a Oneness position - it is a BIBLE position!

[Steadfast]

so i take it you don't care much for Jones and braizer??


I wonder what chuckie Ellis will do ?? he has the other Large PAW church in Detroit.

HIs uncle had a great church in chicago but is serving time in prison

I think Bishop David Ellis (the Father now deceased) would slap the stupid out of the boy if he could. He was a STRONG oneness, Jesus Name baptism preacher. In fact, he was a great preacher who loved truth. I don't know much about the son except that I've heard him make some VERY compromised statements about his 'beliefs'.

[Ferd]

AB, you are right we should not call trinitarians 3 godders, we should call them skitozphrinic.

[Ferd]

(Did I already say how much I like this guy?) :hypercoffee

You certainly have my permission to repeat that!

[Thad]

Thad,

I believe it to be true. Before Bishop Morris Golder (one of my favorite preachers) passed away he spoke to us openly about the condition of the PAW and said that they were, at that present time, averaging either (a) one Church a month electing a trinitarian Pastor or (b) one PAW preacher a month taking the Pastorate of a trinitarian Church.

Remis Wright from a Baptist Church in Houston is a good example of that. He, himself, was a Golder disciple.

The numbers may have slightly changed but, sincerely, in a few more years - short of a drastic change - you'll not see a nickel's difference in a truth preaching PAW and a false doctrine preaching COGIC. In most areas you can't tell a difference already.

I didn't know it was like that doctrinally. there statment of faith has never changed so I took it for granted that most still preached accordingly with a few fringe pastors. I did know that Jones & Braizer have had a huge influence over the younger generation of PAW ministry.


I did know that there was some major names out there that were "undercover" oneness BUT didn't know there were any outright Trinitarians pastoring actual PAW churches

[Sandra]

I will be singing for Bishop Horace Smith next sunday, I am going to ask questions.
I hear he is going to leave with them along with many others.

[Sandra]

Thank God!


The PAW needs to not EVER be the same. these guys need to join some baptist organization.

GT Haywood has finnallly stopped turning over in his grave.

The PAW is a great organizaiton that needs to return to its former glory. Big churches with empty messages are NOT the answer!!!!

Many are leaving with them

[Ferd]

I will be singing for Bishop Horace Smith next sunday, I am going to ask questions.
I hear he is going to leave with them along with many others.

Pass along my reguards and tell him I said thank you for leaving instead of draging the PAW into the pit.

[Sandra]

That is a lie. I have never heard anyone preach that there are "Three God's and you have not either.

exactly!!

[Ferd]

Many are leaving with them

It is my most sencere hope that every hariy tick in the bunch leaves!

If the PAW falls to 15 churches, they will be better off.

[Thad]

Pass along my reguards and tell him I said thank you for leaving instead of draging the PAW into the pit.


WOW!! FERD! that's pretty strong words there ! ! ! !

[Thad]

It is my most sencere hope that every hariy tick in the bunch leaves!

If the PAW falls to 15 churches, they will be better off.



FERD!!!!!!!! :reaction:reaction:reaction:reaction:reaction:reac tion

[Sandra]

It is my most sencere hope that every hariy tick in the bunch leaves!

If the PAW falls to 15 churches, they will be better off.

I don't really care, I just trust these GREAT men of GOD. I think change is good in many cases.

[ThePastorsCoach]

AB, you are right we should not call trinitarians 3 godders, we should call them skitozphrinic.

I was raised in Trinitarian Pentecost and was saved and filled with the Holy Ghost at the age of 5. I started preaching at 16 and held my first license to preach at age 16. I was educated in "Trinitarian" Bible Colleges. I have never heard a "Three God" message in my life.
It is by the grace and mercy of God that I received the Revelation of Jesus Christ and know Him as the Mighty God. I am thankful that I was baptized in the name of Jesus Christ and I identify with HIM as my Messiah, Lord and God. It is a shame that we want to resort to name calling and bashing to lift up out theological position.
IMHO - Most in the Oneness movement - have been TAUGHT Oneness Theology and Wesleyan Holiness Ideology and have NEVER had a true Revelation of Jesus Christ. They know Him with head knowledge but not in a true Revelation of who He is!

[Ferd]

I am sure you dont Sandra. They clearly are great. they have churches with 25,000 people so they are great at something.

however, it is way beyond clear that their doctrine is nowhere near what the PAW once was.

lets be honest GT Haywood, while not a legalist has been spinning in his grave for at least a decade over what has been going on in the organization he founded.

[Sandra]

I am sure you dont Sandra. They clearly are great. they have churches with 25,000 people so they are great at something.

however, it is way beyond clear that their doctrine is nowhere near what the PAW once was.

lets be honest GT Haywood, while not a legalist has been spinning in his grave for at least a decade over what has been going on in the organization he founded.

I just sang at their National Conference this year, I sing at many PAW churches.
Many of those PAW preachers associate with non-oneness preachers.
Its all good, God is up to great things.

[Ferd]

I was raised in Trinitarian Pentecost and was saved and filled with the Holy Ghost at the age of 5. I started preaching at 16 and held my first license to preach at age 16. I was educated in "Trinitarian" Bible Colleges. I have never heard a "Three God" message in my life.
It is by the grace and mercy of God that I received the Revelation of Jesus Christ and know Him as the Mighty God. I am thankful that I was baptized in the name of Jesus Christ and I identify with HIM as my Messiah, Lord and God. It is a shame that we want to resort to name calling and bashing to lift up out theological position.
IMHO - Most in the Oneness movement - have been TAUGHT Oneness Theology and Wesleyan Holiness Ideology and have NEVER had a true Revelation of Jesus Christ. They know Him with head knowledge but not in a true Revelation of who He is!

You have a wonderful testamoney. i dont agree with your assessment of Oneness people though.

I dont see trinitarians as 3 God believers, but I do find it quite difficult to keep a straight face when they get to talking about 3 persons and such.

I know One God who has saved my eternal soul. I am doubly thankful that 4 generations ago, a Wesleyan Methodist Holiness lady found the Truth of Oneness and recieved the Holy Ghost. my great grandmother was a preacher of this wonderful Truth and I am saved today because of it.

I believe it is no coincidence that it was Holiness people that God moved on in the early part of the 20th century.

[ThePastorsCoach]

I don't really care, I just trust these GREAT men of GOD. I think change is good in many cases.

I agree totally and if I were in it - I would leave too! These organizations are antiquated and totally outdated. Both the UPC and PAW are TOP HEAVY!

The days of following some hierarchal potentate and subscribing to outdated theology of the early 1900's - just because somebody SAYS SO - is over for the most part. The good guys - the progressive guys - will leave and let them keep playing their gospel games and thinking they are the ONLY ones with TRUTH!
There will always be those that continue to sip the kool aid and think they are the ONLY ones that are gonna make it.

[Sandra]

I agree totally and if I were in it - I would leave too! These organizations are antiquated and totally outdated. Both the UPC and PAW are TOP HEAVY!

The days of following some hierarchal potentate and subscribing to outdated theology of the early 1900's - just because somebody SAYS SO - is over for the most part. The good guys - the progressive guys - will leave and let them keep playing their gospel games and thinking they are the ONLY ones with TRUTH!
There will always be those that continue to sip the kool aid and think they are the ONLY ones that are gonna make it.

agree.....thank you AB!!!

[Ferd]

I just sang at their National Conference this year, I sing at many PAW churches.
Many of those PAW preachers associate with non-oneness preachers.
Its all good, God is up to great things.

I think that is wonderful. I havent heard you in years but it would be great to hear you again.

i am much less concerned about PAW preachers having non-oneness friends than I am concerned about PAW preachers teaching false doctrine. there is a big difference.

[Sandra]

I was with Bishop Norman Wagner a month ago in Youngstown, he is way to progresssive for PAW. I am sure he is on his way out.

[Ferd]

Tom Fred Tenny may be wrong. we may be LESS than a generation away from the death of the Apostolic movement.

[Thad]

I was raised in Trinitarian Pentecost and was saved and filled with the Holy Ghost at the age of 5. I started preaching at 16 and held my first license to preach at age 16. I was educated in "Trinitarian" Bible Colleges. I have never heard a "Three God" message in my life.
It is by the grace and mercy of God that I received the Revelation of Jesus Christ and know Him as the Mighty God. I am thankful that I was baptized in the name of Jesus Christ and I identify with HIM as my Messiah, Lord and God. It is a shame that we want to resort to name calling and bashing to lift up out theological position.
IMHO - Most in the Oneness movement - have been TAUGHT Oneness Theology and Wesleyan Holiness Ideology and have NEVER had a true Revelation of Jesus Christ. They know Him with head knowledge but not in a true Revelation of who He is!
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------





true, I can agree with that, but that is the case in ANY church where religion is Passed down from generation to generation.

also , would agree that there is a wide range of beliefs amongst trinitarians? we have been scheduled to sing on programs in our community only to cancelled at the last minute simply because we are a "Oneness cult". So, this type of rhetoric works both ways.

some Trinitarians sound very close to Oneness while a few sound like Tritheist. that's what i was referring to when i mentioned the wide spectrum of beliefs

[Sandra]

I think that is wonderful. I havent heard you in years but it would be great to hear you again.

i am much less concerned about PAW preachers having non-oneness friends than I am concerned about PAW preachers teaching false doctrine. there is a big difference.

I don't think they are preaching false doctrine, Bishop Jones belives in one GOD.

[Ferd]

I don't think they are preaching false doctrine, Bishop Jones belives in one GOD.

from what I understand it is less about Godhead and more about a laundry list of other doctrinal views. doctrinal views that have led to widespready carnality and no, I aint talking about ladys with earbobs and pants.

[Sandra]

from what I understand it is less about Godhead and more about a laundry list of other doctrinal views. doctrinal views that have led to widespready carnality and no, I aint talking about ladys with earbobs and pants.
Are you saying the Apostolics have it all right, just asking??? You think in every area apostolics have no error??

[Ferd]

Are you saying the Apostolics have it all right, just asking??? You think in every area apostolics have no error??

Sandra, there are a few things that I think are very important doctrinally speaking.

I personally am Water/Spirit in doctrine but I see that there should be room for fellowship and a common spirit of unity and working together between those who are PCI in doctrine and those that are W/S.

Where Holiness is concerned, I believe we all should preach Holiness because it is VERY biblical. That doesnt mean I believe we should all have traditional Holiness Standards as taught by the UPCI and the conservitives over the last 40 years.

I am with TFT, we need room in our movement for a wider understanding of what it is to be Apostolic.

That doesnt mean we give up the bedrock. Oneness is what we are. period. teachings like Braziers on eternal salvation and some other things that have led to serious carnality issues is very troubling.

I have heard reports from PAW people that there is rampant moral issues as well. This stems from teaching! THIS is what I am talking about Sandra. Not some extremely narrow interpretation of what it means to be Apostolic.

[Sandra]

Sandra, there are a few things that I think are very important doctrinally speaking.

I personally am Water/Spirit in doctrine but I see that there should be room for fellowship and a common spirit of unity and working together between those who are PCI in doctrine and those that are W/S.

Where Holiness is concerned, I believe we all should preach Holiness because it is VERY biblical. That doesnt mean I believe we should all have traditional Holiness Standards as taught by the UPCI and the conservitives over the last 40 years.

I am with TFT, we need room in our movement for a wider understanding of what it is to be Apostolic.

That doesnt mean we give up the bedrock. Oneness is what we are. period. teachings like Braziers on eternal salvation and some other things that have led to serious carnality issues is very troubling.

I have heard reports from PAW people that there is rampant moral issues as well. This stems from teaching! THIS is what I am talking about Sandra. Not some extremely narrow interpretation of what it means to be Apostolic.

me too!!

[chseeads]

Be careful that the "wide gate" doesn't get mistaken for this "wide understanding".......

[Jack Shephard]

Sandra, there are a few things that I think are very important doctrinally speaking.

I personally am Water/Spirit in doctrine but I see that there should be room for fellowship and a common spirit of unity and working together between those who are PCI in doctrine and those that are W/S.

Where Holiness is concerned, I believe we all should preach Holiness because it is VERY biblical. That doesnt mean I believe we should all have traditional Holiness Standards as taught by the UPCI and the conservitives over the last 40 years.

I am with TFT, we need room in our movement for a wider understanding of what it is to be Apostolic.

That doesnt mean we give up the bedrock. Oneness is what we are. period. teachings like Braziers on eternal salvation and some other things that have led to serious carnality issues is very troubling.

I have heard reports from PAW people that there is rampant moral issues as well. This stems from teaching! THIS is what I am talking about Sandra. Not some extremely narrow interpretation of what it means to be Apostolic.

I have read that Brazier came from the Universal Church of Christ and was educated at Moody. So there may be some influence in there from those places.

[Ferd]

me too!!

well, at least we agree on that... were Brazier is concerned I dont think we agree at all.

[Ferd]

Be careful that the "wide gate" doesn't get mistaken for this "wide understanding".......

the goal as far as i am concerned is not to get wide open and turn into something else (see my arguement here in this thread about the PAW). The goal is returning ONLY to what the UPCI has been historically.

No wider than what it was in 1945. but certainly wider than what we have become.

[chseeads]

You have a limit to your wideness, I don't think some people do.

[Ferd]

You have a limit to your wideness, I don't think some people do.

yea I know. I would prefer they join Bishop Braizer.

[Mercy]

I was with Bishop Norman Wagner a month ago in Youngstown, he is way to progresssive for PAW. I am sure he is on his way out.


He isn’t going any where. He is our Diocesan Bishop here in Texas. It has been Rumored that Bishop Wagner is leaving for as long as I can remember.

[Mercy]

I think Bishop David Ellis (the Father now deceased) would slap the stupid out of the boy if he could. He was a STRONG oneness, Jesus Name baptism preacher. In fact, he was a great preacher who loved truth. I don't know much about the son except that I've heard him make some VERY compromised statements about his 'beliefs'.

Funny, I am sure if this was the mid 80's when Bishop (David) Ellis was around this comment would be different. Growing up in Detroit Greater Grace (Ellis' church) is where you went when you wanted some "slack"....on whatever. So I guess opinions change based on the reference. If chucky seems less stringent ok, I dont know, I tend to go to his brothers church when I am in MI, but to say David Ellis was some strong "standard keeper"....yeah, thats funny.

[Ferd]

Funny, I am sure if this was the mid 80's when Bishop (David) Ellis was around this comment would be different. Growing up in Detroit Greater Grace (Ellis' church) is where you went when you wanted some "slack"....on whatever. So I guess opinions change based on the reference. If chucky seems less stringent ok, I dont know, I tend to go to his brothers church when I am in MI, but to say David Ellis was some strong "standard keeper"....yeah, thats funny.

Mercy, neither Steadfast nor I have been talking about standards. Doctrine is the thing.

[Mercy]

Mercy, neither Steadfast nor I have been talking about standards. Doctrine is the thing.

So how can you say he had such "sound doctrine" if so much could go on in his church? If your not teaching anything then what's the point. If the doctrine was sound then the conviction for the life styles people when there to live would be present too.

The statement just gave me a flash back of driving PAST GG every Sunday and of the people that left our church to go there cuz they wanted to do stuff that was not allowed where my mom had us.

[Ferd]

So how can you say he had such "sound doctrine" if so much could go on in his church? If your not teaching anything then what's the point. If the doctrine was sound then the conviction for the life styles people when there to live would be present too.

The statement just gave me a flash back of driving PAST GG every Sunday and of the people that left our church to go there cuz they wanted to do stuff that was not allowed where my mom had us.

well, there you go. maybe there is a reason the son has gone that direction? I think maybe you and I agree, that these that are leaving ought to?

I am praying for the PAW, it has been a great organization and I pray the good men that are left can continue on.

[Steadfast]

All this talk about 'no three god' stuff is ridiculous... everyone knows that there is a difference in 'One God' and 'three persons in the godhead' heresy. And, for the record... YES, I've been in a meeting where the preacher was put in the pulpit to address the congregation and started all this puke about 'God the Father told God the son to send the Holy Ghost down there to deliver them!' ignorance.

To say it doesn't happen is an exercise in willfull ignrorance because it does happen. And then to impily the worn out argument 'do you think all Apostolics are right?' is little more than a distraction to an unwinable argument as nobody I know thinks that all Aposotlics are right.

I cherish this truth more than life itself (YES: both New Birth and Separation issues) and can not, with a pure conscience, rejoice at the failure of Apostolics to be Apostolic in every way... especially in our doctrine! Before anybody accuses me of being 'indoctrinated' or 'traditional' I can assure you that I'm a first generation Apostolic Pentecostal who was raised in my Grandparents tavern where I worked as a bouncer until the night I got the Holy Ghost.

My affinity for this message didn't come from heritage or even a home bible study; it came from much study, prayer and fasting. To throw that down to fit in with people who don't even believe the biblical basics of our Apostolic doctrine or to be so weak in my integrity that I would sacrifice truth to fit into crowds that openly reject truth would make me a transgressor of the highest order.

All true Apostolics better come to the understanding that some dwell under the title of 'Apostolic' - both in Churches around the nation and on this forum - that simply aren't.

Anything less is lying to ourselves. Period.

[Steadfast]

Funny, I am sure if this was the mid 80's when Bishop (David) Ellis was around this comment would be different. Growing up in Detroit Greater Grace (Ellis' church) is where you went when you wanted some "slack"....on whatever. So I guess opinions change based on the reference. If chucky seems less stringent ok, I dont know, I tend to go to his brothers church when I am in MI, but to say David Ellis was some strong "standard keeper"....yeah, thats funny.

I can't say much about his standards as I didn't get much opportunity to see them. I do know, however, that I have recordings where the man preaches the New Birth doctrine so hard that it would erase ANY question of what he believed.

[Mercy]

well, there you go. maybe there is a reason the son has gone that direction? I think maybe you and I agree, that these that are leaving ought to?

I am praying for the PAW, it has been a great organization and I pray the good men that are left can continue on.

If they are leaving because they are truly teaching against the teachings of Jesus, yes they should go. I dont know if I have read anything stating what they have said from thier own mouths...just articles from Chicago and opinions on message boards. If they are truly against the teachings of God, God will not allow His own to be without. They can take thier money and huge congregations and go. God will provide.

[Mercy]

I can't say much about his standards as I didn't get much opportunity to see them. I do know, however, that I have recordings where the man preaches the New Birth doctrine so hard that it would erase ANY question of what he believed.

...and I think it weighs so much heavier when you DO believe, and yet you allow madness to take place in the church you are appointed to lead. Kinda like me....in college I could preach/teach the oneness doctrine in my sleep, but I lived just like everyone else. I wasn't promoting/living what I knew, even though I knew it then as truth....just wanted to shout it loudly to show I was "better".

[Pragmatist]

I believe it is no coincidence that it was Holiness people that God moved on in the early part of the 20th century.

I agree. I think "holiness" people have a higher consecration and that is why God moves on them. It is not about the specific standards they follow as much as that they are living sacrifices to God.

[Thad]

* * * NEWS FLASH * * *


I had originally talked to someone who goes to Jone's church who told me that he told the congregation that he was leaving the PAW.

I just talked to a PAW Pastor who also confirmed this AND that they are holding a Huge meeting with all the PAW Bishops in Chicago, today as a matter Fact to find out who is staying and who is leaving

shoudl be interesting how this all shakes down. I was told by this pastor that the PAW is about 50/50 split down the middle as far as doctrine. 50% want the old path traditional apostolic teaching. the other 50% want to go mainstream for lack of a better word

[ThePastorsCoach]

They are antiquated - I hope they take the fresh - progressive path!

[Thad]

They are antiquated - I hope they take the fresh - progressive path!


antiquated in what way? as far as formality ?? If so I would concur at least in my personal opinion. I have gone to many of their conferences and there was just TOO TOO much pomp and praise and adulations for men.

[Sandra]

He isn’t going any where. He is our Diocesan Bishop here in Texas. It has been Rumored that Bishop Wagner is leaving for as long as I can remember.

I was giving my opinion on the matter, I still think he is headed out the door.
He has had non-apostolic guests in the past and that is something that is frowned upon.

[Sandra]

They are antiquated - I hope they take the fresh - progressive path!

exactly... this is a great day!!! God is doing wonderful things among us.

[Ferd]

They are antiquated - I hope they take the fresh - progressive path!

that just plane hurts my heart to hear you say it.

this isnt about being progressive. it is about being in rank sin.

[Steadfast]

They are antiquated - I hope they take the fresh - progressive path!

Regardless of it's 'age' the fact remains that when 'progressive' means ignoring blatant false doctrines the correct interpretation is 'backsliding'.

'Progressive path'... I suspect that passage of scripture would be somewhere between the one lauding the value of the 'old paths' and that one warning us about 'a way that seemeth right unto a man'.


:hmmm

[bishoph]

They are antiquated - I hope they take the fresh - progressive path!

Bishop, if you are referring to the archaic practices as it relates to how church is "done," I concur!

If however, you are talking about a new doctrinal path I would strongly disagree. I think one of the greatest challenges many face today is how to be on the cutting edge without eliminating the basic principles of doctrine.

[Sandra]

I think allowing preachers to advertise on TV is progressive, should of happen years ago.
Great days ahead for the UPC!

[Steadfast]

Bishop, if you are referring to the archaic practices as it relates to how church is "done," I concur!

If however, you are talking about a new doctrinal path I would strongly disagree. I think one of the greatest challenges many face today is how to be on the cutting edge without eliminating the basic principles of doctrine.

Great post.

[bishoph]

It is sad to me, that we have come to a day when we rejoice over the concept of becoming "mainstream."

As I look at God's people throughout time, his "church" has never been mainstream. In the OT, the nation of Israel was given 613 commandments, many of which had no relevance other than separation/distinction from those around them. God wanted anyone who saw an Israelite to immediately be able to identify them as such, this by its very nature set them aside from the "mainstream" of society not to mention their belief in the "only true God."

The idea of the modern day church assimilating into the "mainstream" religious circles, reeks of a decent into compromise and if not checked into apostasy. JMHO

[hartmann]

Imo- I Dont Want The Upc To Change A Thing! I Like It The Way It

Is.when You Start Making Changes You Never Stop.

I Am So Mad About This I Am Visiting Bectons Church Saturday Night.

[Thad]

Imo- I Dont Want The Upc To Change A Thing! I Like It The Way It

Is.when You Start Making Changes You Never Stop.

I Am So Mad About This I Am Visiting Bectons Church Saturday Night.


which part are you mad about ?

[stmatthew]

Sheep and Goats.....Wheat and Tares.

[Sandra]

Imo- I Dont Want The Upc To Change A Thing! I Like It The Way It

Is.when You Start Making Changes You Never Stop.

I Am So Mad About This I Am Visiting Bectons Church Saturday Night.

Change is GOOD!

[ChicagoPastor]

They have had churches that have been preaching Three god preachers for a while. It was more than standards. Hey can anyone name me 10 PAW preachers who made the big time on National Television?

Bishop Brazier
Noel Jones
Chares Ellis III
(there are several on TV in Chicago, but can't think of all the names)

Bishop Brazier baptized dozens in the name of Jesus EVERY WEEK on TV in Chicago

[Steadfast]

Change is GOOD!

In some instances, you are correct. However, change... as it pertains to sound doctrine... is SIN!

[Joseph Miller]

Change is GOOD!

In some instances, you are correct. However, change... as it pertains to sound doctrine... is SIN!


But God is still good.

[Ferd]

I am sorry Steadfast, you did not use large enough font. I fixed it for you.
In some instances, you are correct. However, change... as it pertains to sound doctrine... is SIN!

[Sandra]

Bishop Brazier
Noel Jones
Chares Ellis III
(there are several on TV in Chicago, but can't think of all the names)

Bishop Brazier baptized dozens in the name of Jesus EVERY WEEK on TV in Chicago
I sure hope you come and see me at the BRAZIERS, I am doing their christmas special along with the chicago symphony. It will air on FOXTV.

[Sandra]

Bishop Brazier
Noel Jones
Chares Ellis III(there are several on TV in Chicago, but can't think of all the names)

Bishop Brazier baptized dozens in the name of Jesus EVERY WEEK on TV in Chicago

I have never been to Bishop Ellis's church but have always wanted to. They called recently and Matt booked it for FEB.
I really enjoy his preaching on The WORD network.

[Sandra]

I sure hope you come and see me at the BRAZIERS, I am doing their christmas special along with the chicago symphony. It will air on FOXTV.

bump for ChicagoPastor

[Sandra]

I have never been to Bishop Ellis's church but have always wanted to. They called recently and Matt booked it for FEB.
I really enjoy his preaching on The WORD network.

Bump for ChicagoPastor

[Dedicated Mind]

I sure hope you come and see me at the BRAZIERS, I am doing their christmas special along with the chicago symphony. It will air on FOXTV.

sandra, do you know the date and time of the fox program, my mom & sisters live in Chicago. I would like to tell them to watch. I might be able to catch it on satellite.

[Sandra]

sandra, do you know the date and time of the fox program, my mom & sisters live in Chicago. I would like to tell them to watch. I might be able to catch it on satellite.

When I find out I will post it.

[Sam]

When I find out I will post it.

Keep us posted of where you are going to be from time to time in case some of us can come see you. You were about two miles from my house last year and I did not get there.

[Sandra]

Keep us posted of where you are going to be from time to time in case some of us can come see you. You were about two miles from my house last year and I did not get there.

http://www.vickiyohe.org/tourdates.php?listing=all
Notice the Nov. 15th date, I was invited by a UPC pastor:D

[LaGirl]

http://www.vickiyohe.org/tourdates.php?listing=all
Notice the Nov. 15th date, I was invited by a UPC pastor:D

is that marvin's church?

[Sandra]

is that marvin's church?

shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh:D

[LaGirl]

shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh:D


lol....he has always been a rebel! lol i have known him for YEARS! as a matter of fact, he and my pastor are best friends.

[Sandra]

lol....he has always been a rebel! lol i have known him for YEARS! as a matter of fact, he and my pastor are best friends.

Its actually a Community wide event, should be fun :D

[Scott Hutchinson]

Here is a interesting PAW church site.
http://christtemplekal.org

[Steve Epley]

The PAW was tolerant way too long and these guys have helped destroy the oldest Oneness organization in America. Their false doctrine that excuses their lifestyle was a prelude to embracing other false doctrines and overtures to the Trinitarian movement in general. The PAW should say good riddance.

[Monkeyman]

Submitted the following to The Chicago Defender newspaper. I have no
idea if they will publish an edited version, as is, or not at all.

Welcome your reactions.

Regards,

Marlon Millner
--------------------


Open Letter to Bishop Arthur Brazier

Oct. 18, 2007





To Bishop Arthur Brazier,



I was deeply saddened to read in a Chicago Defender article on Oct. 11,
"Bishop Brazier Leaves PAW," that you intend to end your more than 50
years of fellowship with the Pentecostal Assemblies of the World.



To the average reader of The Defender, the internal theological
squabbles of any religious group remain marginal to why people seek
faith in the first place or Christian faith in particular and
Pentecostal faith specifically. It is because we live in what many
scholars rightly call a post-denominational age that I write you openly,
and hope to share with readers the broader loss to Pentecostal
organizations like PAW, when churches like Apostolic Church of God pull
out.



As a third-generation Apostolic Pentecostal, who has served and worked
in many Christian faith communities (Baptist, Church of God in Christ
and Anglican), I felt a calling in my freshman year at Morehouse College
in Atlanta to not only experience Pentecostalism, but to study it as
well. And PAW was central to both of those pursuits.



During my freshman year, though I had been raised the son and grandson
of Apostolic Pentecostal preachers, it was only after attending the PAW
Mid-Winter convention in Atlanta that I experienced the hallmark of
Pentecostalism -- the baptism in the Holy Spirit. But another unusual
event occurred that year.



During my time in the college library, I started to search for every
book in the library that had something to do with Pentecostalism. It was
then I learned of William Joseph Seymour -- the pioneer and African
American leader of the Azusa Street Revival, from which Pentecostalism
became popular. I learned about Garfield T. Haywood, the first African
American leader of PAW, which from its beginnings was interracial.



I also discovered an obscure book, published in 1969 by William Eerdmans
Press called Black Self Determination. That book in the library was by
you. I was taken aback that a Pentecostal preacher and an Apostolic
Pentecostal preacher in particular had so powerfully addressed the
social condition of African Americans during the height of the modern
Civil Rights Movement. My interest only deepened when -- though from
North Carolina -- I got a summer job after my freshman year at The
Chicago Tribune -- working in the editorial library. I began to pour
over old newspaper article clip files on you. Your work with Martin
Luther King, Jr. Your outspoken and controversial outreach to and work
with gangs in Chicago, such as the Black Stone Rangers. Your
collaboration with the Industrial Areas Foundation to create what is now
known as The Woodlawn Organization.



You were no typical or ordinary black preacher or Apostolic Pentecostal.
However, you were in a sphere of several prominent black Apostolic
Pentecostals -- like Robert McMurray in Los Angeles, Robert Lawson in
New York and Smallwood Williams in Washington, DC, who pastored large
Apostolic Pentecostal churches, and engaged across Christian and other
social lines to work for positive change, peace and justice in
communities of color, and around the world.



However, like them, your political and social work often outstripped
your theological reflection. Your discovery of certain ideas from the
Protestant Reformation about the salvation status of a believer were new
for many in Apostolic Pentecostal circles, but not nearly as progressive
and forward-thinking as your work for community transformation.

You would not remember this, but I recall with disappointment, when I
reached out to you by letter, as an eager Apostolic Pentecostal trying
to blend the spiritual and critical in college and you referred me to
materials from Moody Bible Institute. That was a far cry from the
McCormick Theological Seminary, or the University of Chicago Divinity
School -- places I would visit a few years later. And it certainly could
not be further from The Divinity School at Harvard University, where I
would earn a master of divinity years later.



Many were shocked to learn that I as an Apostolic Pentecostal would
attend Harvard for theological studies. Aren't they liberal? They don't
even believe in Jesus or Christianity there, right? Harvard certainly is
religiously liberal and plural. However, Harvard Divinity School was the
same place that in 1984 held the only scholarly conference on Apostolic
Pentecostalism ever held at a major university in North America. I have
the papers from that conference.



My experiences in following your ministry and the others I have listed
here led me to believe that being progressive is far more than
interacting with non-Apostolic Pentecostal Christians, or inviting them
to preach in a denomination's annual meeting.



Bishop Brazier, the Church of God in Christ invited Robert Lawson to
address its annual meeting in 1945, because Lawson and Charles Mason
were personal friends. But they clearly did not agree on issues of
doctrine. And who can say the last time an Apostolic Pentecostal --
since then, has ever preached in Memphis, the headquarters city of
COGIC?



Consider your colleague in Chicago, Rev. Dr. Stephen Thurston. He may
have all types of preachers come to New Covenant Missionary Baptist
Church and preach, but when the annual session of the National Baptist
Convention of America takes place, the preachers reflect the
denomination and rightly so.



[Monkeyman]

The problem with a post-denominational age, and a mega-ministry,
televangelism model is that national and international gatherings of
like-minded people, who share a common history, faith and practice, are
set-aside for commercialization of Christianity, which leads to
personality-driven, popularity focused events, where there are no
unifying ideas, just market-driven forces.

It is this context that has created a crisis of meaning for PAW, which
causes you to say open the convention pulpit up, and for others to say
keep it entirely closed.



This post-denominational age, which has given birth to "full gospel"
Baptists, and "neo-Pentecostal" African Methodist Episcopalians, and
even "charismatic" Anglicans and Catholics, is a good thing, if we focus
on the broad dimensions of the Pentecostal experience, and how it always
undermines our social and political constructions of the church -- as
was the case in the book of Acts in the Bible. This is also the case in
Chicago, if you believe religious historian and Princeton professor
Wallace Best, who in his book Passionately Human, No Less Divine;
Religion and Culture in Black Chicago from 1915 to 1952, argues for the
"pentecostalization" of churches in the Windy City through the growth of
gospel music, and the migration of rural black Christianity into an
urban context.



However, the movement of the Spirit is not market-driven spirituality,
which is highly ahistorical, anti-critical, non-reflective and
disparaging of tradition. Rather than renewing a movement, these market
forces can cause schism, just as the "new issue" of Jesus name baptism
did in 1914, eight years after Azusa Street.



Apostolic Pentecostals were birthed in an attempt to radically reform
and renew the church, not to reject it.



While I know the struggle has been long and hard to be different in PAW,
you perhaps have not been different enough, in that you would now go the
way of being independent, rather than still be a force of change to be
reckoned with, a father and mentor of a new generation of ministry, and
someone programmatically instituting progressive Apostolic
Pentecostalism theologically, politically and socially in the context of
your lifelong denomination.



If Episcopalians have not split over blessing same-sex unions, and
ordaining gay bishops (though some have left), why should you leave and
PAW possibly split along the lines of those who want to rightly
celebrate Apostolic Pentecostal and PAW identity and those who rightly
want to be ecumenical, interdenominational and intentionally inclusive?



Leaving really means you can no longer mentor a new generation of
leadership in the denomination. Like so many African American leaders,
you become a lone ranger, a religious Don Quijote, with a mission
limited to one. People gather around you because of who you are, rather
than the program, the mission, the purpose you could possibly represent.



I actually think everyone in PAW could probably use more sophisticated
and critical theological education, even of an Evangelical or
Pentecostal variety. Pentecostals don't just make good music or preach
on television today. They have also created accredited schools, created
academic societies and written theological books and journals of the
highest scholarly order, and I'm not just talking about the latest
material from United Pentecostal Church scholar David Bernard. We can
do better than that.



I think you and PAW would do well to consider the points Bishop Morris
Golder said the denomination needed to reflect on, when in 1973 he
published the history of the organization. He then said the organization
needed to study broader Christian theology and history. But Golder was
trained in religion with a graduate degree from a major university. He
was not just socially and politically conscious. He was also
theologically cosmopolitan.



Being theologically cosmopolitan is not inviting Baptist or COGIC
preachers to the PAW convention. It is what Bishop Smallwood Williams
had in mind when in his 1981 autobiography, This is My Story; a
Significant Life Struggle, he wrote, "I made a lot of Pentecostals
uncomfortable. I never purposely set out to be unpleasant, but my
emphasis on pragmatic preaching was leading me to get involved in areas
where few in my church had ventured. Under my leadership in the late
fifties and sixties … members of Bibleway were getting involved in
places that didn't make us particularly popular with some Pentecostals
-- Christian unity and cooperation … I had the ability … to see
beyond denominational differences and religious prejudices to apply
Pentecostal theology to practical areas of living. That gift of mine
wasn't particularly appreciated. No doubt many Pentecostals, like many
Christians in many other denominations, were threatened when they took a
step outside their own door. This is true to this day, despite all the
talk of the ecumenical movement."



Being theologically cosmopolitan is the work you have done with The
Woodlawn Organization and the partnership PAW has forged with World
Vision to meet human needs in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina in New
Orleans. Being theologically cosmopolitan is finding progressive and
prophetic reasons for partnership and fellowship with those with whom
you might doctrinally disagree in the hopes of building bridges and
better representing the kingdom of God.



PAW, despite the theological exclusivism and sectarianism of some, has
many bridge-building elements of its history, upon which you and others
should be building. The legacy of radical reformation in Christian
doctrine and practice is worth emulating, and not merely celebrating as
completed practice of restoration. The heritage of affirming and
ordaining women in ministry and to the pastorate should be celebrated
and expanded. The history of interracial fellowship in a hostile, racist
society, should be retained and renewed for a multicultural America,
where others like Hispanics are the new face of ethnic America.



The way in which African American Apostolic Pentecostal leaders were
well-read (though not formally trained), politically engaged, interested
in Africa, and conversant in the issues of the day is nothing more than
a firm foundation upon which everyone in PAW could build.



Perhaps you have tried to affirm and expand all of these things in PAW
down through the years, and you simply got tired, frustrated and fed up.
Nevertheless, I am disappointed.



What PAW needs is not a market-driven, personality-focused national
meeting with celebrity preachers (both in and outside of PAW) to draw
people, it needs new and renewed vision and focus on its own identity
and purpose, an identity and purpose around which a new generation of
Apostolic Pentecostals can gather and celebrate. Both sides of this
petty, useless conflict need to be challenged about how to build unity
without uniformity.



It is still Jesus' prayer that we be one. And we are stilled called to
build up people for works of service (and that should be our focus),
because in such building, we shall come into the unity of the faith.
(Eph. 4:13)



Sincerely,



Rev. Marlon Millner



Rev. Marlon Millner is a third-generation Apostolic Pentecostal, who is
ordained or licensed in both Pentecostal and Baptist traditions. He is a
co-founder of the Pentecostal Charismatic Peace Fellowship
(www.pcpf.org) and lives outside of Philadelphia, PA. He attended his
first PAW convention when he was 16 years old.

[Adino]

Rev. Millner,

Thank you for sharing your letter. I find the whole matter of great interest. Maybe you can help me better understand the current atmosphere within the PAW concerning soteriological issues.

I read from Bishop Brazier's church website the following statement:

"If you are to be truly saved, you must trust the Lord Jesus Christ and receive Him into your heart as Savior and Lord. This is what it means to be born again."

I found the Chicago Defender article "Bishop Brazier Leaves PAW (http://www.chicagodefender.com/page/local.cfm?ArticleID=9917)" and read that eternal security was one of the items of contention between Brazier and others in the PAW. Without knowing much about Rev. Brazier, one can see tendencies toward the position of justification by faith alone in his words.

Having only been introduced to Rev. Brazier through this forum, but having the experience of periodic contact with members of the PAW here in Michigan, I am left to wonder, if Rev. Brazier was to remain in the PAW, whether he could be a force to help the organization abandon the water/spirit doctrine of the new birth.

It is of great interest to me to learn whether or not the PAW is leaning toward a return to the position of justification by faith alone after having abandoned this view for the water/spirit doctrine under the guidance of G.T. Haywood.

Is it of your opinion that a good many within the PAW agree with Bishop Brazier's new birth position or is the water/spirit position still so dominant within the organization that he has already determined continued unity a futile effort. I realize an attempt could be made for the two very different soteriological positions to exist side by side but the merger of the PAJC and the PCI back in 1945 has already proven this move to be a disaster.

Thanks in advance for your time and thoughts.

Shelby Smith
southeastern, Michigan

[Adino]

Monkeyman?

[TRFrance]

so i take it you don't care much for Jones and braizer??


I wonder what chuckie Ellis will do ?? he has the other Large PAW church in Detroit.

HIs uncle had a great church in chicago but is serving time in prison

Charles Ellis... God bless him, but... I have some questions about his doctrine.
I remember seeing him on video once , preaching, and saying that a person can have the gift of tongues but not have the Holy Ghost.

Alarm bells went off in my head when I heard that!!

[TRFrance]

I read from Bishop Brazier's church website the following statement:

"If you are to be truly saved, you must trust the Lord Jesus Christ and receive Him into your heart as Savior and Lord. This is what it means to be born again."



Interesting. Today I went to his church website, and but maybe he's updated it since then. This is what I found:

WHAT WE BELEIVE

We believe that we should earnestly contend for God's standard of salvation. In the Word of God we find nothing short of a holy, Spirit-filled life with the signs following as on the day of Pentecost.

(Acts 2:4; 8:14-17; 10:44-48; 10:1-6, Romans 12:1-2, Hebrews 12:14).

The only ground upon which God will accept a sinner is repentance from the heart for the sins that he has committed. (Psalm 51:17, Luke 24:47)

We believe in water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ, and the receiving of the Holy Ghost. (Acts 2:38; 10:44-48; 19:1-6)
We believe in the Translation of Saints.
We believe in the Millennium.
We believe in the Lord's Supper.
We believe in Divine Healing.
We believe in a wholly sanctified life and final judgment.

To answer any questions you may have, we welcome you to our Bible classes. If this is not possible, you may call the church directly at 773.667.1500.

Its not as explicitly Apostolic the same way you'd expect to see it on a UPC website (necessity of Acts 2:38 for salvation, speaking in tongues, etc.), but it seems fairly Apostolic I guess, on the main points.

[Adino]

TRFrance,

Hello, good to meet you.

I just wrote Rev. Brazier's church an email this morning asking for clarification on a couple of issues. I pointed to that quote from a section they had on salvation. (Posted here again for convenience)
"If you are to be truly saved, you must trust the Lord Jesus Christ and receive Him into your heart as Savior and Lord. This is what it means to be born again."I asked them to clarify this statement with following statements on baptism in the same article which strongly suggested it [baptism] was necessary for salvation. I am hoping for a response.

I also wrote Rev. C. Ellis of Greater Grace Temple in Detroit (I live just north of Detroit) asking him if there was a trend for those in the PAW to return to the position of justification by faith alone abandoned by G.T. Haywood in the early years. He very clearly stated "I haven't heard anything about the PAW abandoning its position on Salvation."

All very interesting.

Are you aware of a trend within the PAW to return to the justification by faith alone position?

You mentioned concerns over Ellis. How has he veered from the mainstream?

[Thad]

Charles Ellis... God bless him, but... I have some questions about his doctrine.
I remember seeing him on video once , preaching, and saying that a person can have the gift of tongues but not have the Holy Ghost.

Alarm bells went off in my head when I heard that!!


Wow he said that ????


That's quite a change from what the Father preached

[Thad]

Monkeyman?


Monkeyman is only on the forum Maybe once a week at most

If he posted today you might be waiting till thanksgiving LOL !

[Thad]

TRFrance,

Hello, good to meet you.

I just wrote Rev. Brazier's church an email this morning asking for clarification on a couple of issues. I pointed to that quote from a section they had on salvation. (Posted here again for convenience)
"If you are to be truly saved, you must trust the Lord Jesus Christ and receive Him into your heart as Savior and Lord. This is what it means to be born again."I asked them to clarify this statement with following statements on baptism in the same article which strongly suggested it [baptism] was necessary for salvation. I am hoping for a response.

I also wrote Rev. C. Ellis of Greater Grace Temple in Detroit (I live just north of Detroit) asking him if there was a trend for those in the PAW to return to the position of justification by faith alone abandoned by G.T. Haywood in the early years. He very clearly stated "I haven't heard anything about the PAW abandoning its position on Salvation."

All very interesting.

Are you aware of a trend within the PAW to return to the justification by faith alone position?

You mentioned concerns over Ellis. How has he veered from the mainstream?


there are quite a few in the PAW who are PCI - i'm sure they don't call it but you know what i mean. I believe that Braizer and Jones are. in fact, i think they also believe in Eternal security. Braizer has taught that for years.

[Adino]

there are quite a few in the PAW who are PCI - i'm sure they don't call it but you know what i mean. I believe that Braizer and Jones are. in fact, i think they also believe in Eternal security. Braizer has taught that for years.Brazier gets into his position on eternal security on one of his available downloads on his church site. Pretty sure it was the message dealing with the perseverance of the saints.

He mentions his departure from the PAW and says that the subject of eternal security came up, I think, in an interview and was mentioned in the Chicago Defender but that this was not the reason he left the PAW. He does not say what that reason was.

I want to know how his site can say, "If you are to be truly saved, you must trust the Lord Jesus Christ and receive Him into your heart as Savior and Lord. This is what it means to be born again" and then go on to say: "The sacred Scriptures attest to the essential need of water baptism, and we must believe the Scriptures because it is through them that the way of salvation is made known."This statement seems to connect being baptized with being saved.

What's this about Ellis "saying that a person can have the gift of tongues but not have the Holy Ghost"???

I'm tempted to write him about this one....

[Steve Epley]

Adino unless Braizer and Ellis has changed they believe the new birth of water & Spirit but Braizer for years has taught unconditional eternal security they(the PAW) was battling it out even in the 80's. Bishop McMurray (the church Noel Jones pastors) both taught his heresy. Bishops P. Scott, M. Golder, J. Tyson and others wrote articles against it. The PAW was too lax in dealing with this damnable heresy and it infected the movement.

[ChicagoPastor]

Brazier is on TV every week in Chicago. And every show ends with them baptizing dozens of people in Jesus name....they're ALWAYS baptizing people. He preaches Acts 2:38 strong......Elder Epley is right, he also preaches eternal security.

[Barb]

TRFrance,

Hello, good to meet you.

I just wrote Rev. Brazier's church an email this morning asking for clarification on a couple of issues. I pointed to that quote from a section they had on salvation. (Posted here again for convenience)
"If you are to be truly saved, you must trust the Lord Jesus Christ and receive Him into your heart as Savior and Lord. This is what it means to be born again."I asked them to clarify this statement with following statements on baptism in the same article which strongly suggested it [baptism] was necessary for salvation. I am hoping for a response.

I also wrote Rev. C. Ellis of Greater Grace Temple in Detroit (I live just north of Detroit) asking him if there was a trend for those in the PAW to return to the position of justification by faith alone abandoned by G.T. Haywood in the early years. He very clearly stated "I haven't heard anything about the PAW abandoning its position on Salvation."

All very interesting.

Are you aware of a trend within the PAW to return to the justification by faith alone position?

You mentioned concerns over Ellis. How has he veered from the mainstream?

This is very interesting...

[philjones]

This is very interesting...

Barb,

You are too nice... "interesting"... I usually find anything Adino writes as "odd" but I guess interesting would be appropriate. :D

J/K Adino a little:)

[Steve Epley]

I would think Braizer-Ellis-Jones would find some difficuties among their congregations if they changed on their veiw of salvation. They may change but it will be slow. Both McMurray & Ellis' father were strong doctrinal preachers when it came to Acts 2:38 and the Oneness of God. McMurray seemed to have some personal problems wherein the unconditional eternal security doctrine might have been convenient.

[Adino]

How do you guys interpret this statement from Braizer's website?

"If you are to be truly saved, you must trust the Lord Jesus Christ and receive Him into your heart as Savior and Lord. This is what it means to be born again."

[Praxeas]

How do you guys interpret this statement from Braizer's website?

"If you are to be truly saved, you must trust the Lord Jesus Christ and receive Him into your heart as Savior and Lord. This is what it means to be born again."

lol...it's not important how "you guys" interpret it...what is important is how does HE interpret it

[Adino]

lol...it's not important how "you guys" interpret it...what is important is how does HE interpret it

Which is why I've contacted his church and am awaiting a response. I would still like to know how others interpret this statement.

If he does not intend to teach that one is born again at the moment one receives Christ into one's heart then he might want to change the wording on his site so he doesn't give the wrong impression that he is wanting to become more inclusive of others in the protestant world.

[Praxeas]

Which is why I've contacted his church and am awaiting a response. I would still like to know how others interpret this statement.

If he does not intend to teach that one is born again at the moment one receives Christ into one's heart then he might want to change the wording on his site so he doesn't give the wrong impression that he is wanting to become more inclusive of others in the protestant world.

Well like generic all inclusive statements on the Godhead of Jakes and others, this seems to be the trend. High profile "ministries" tend to hide or compromise what they believe for the sake of attracting more visitors who might otherwise NOT go to a Oneness church or Trinitarian church etc etc....In Pentecostal circles, Trinitarian and OP try to accept both sides. This may be one of those cases

[Praxeas]

Rev. Millner,

Thank you for sharing your letter. I find the whole matter of great interest. Maybe you can help me better understand the current atmosphere within the PAW concerning soteriological issues.

I read from Bishop Brazier's church website the following statement:

"If you are to be truly saved, you must trust the Lord Jesus Christ and receive Him into your heart as Savior and Lord. This is what it means to be born again."
I found the Chicago Defender article "Bishop Brazier Leaves PAW (http://www.chicagodefender.com/page/local.cfm?ArticleID=9917)" and read that eternal security was one of the items of contention between Brazier and others in the PAW. Without knowing much about Rev. Brazier, one can see tendencies toward the position of justification by faith alone in his words.

Having only been introduced to Rev. Brazier through this forum, but having the experience of periodic contact with members of the PAW here in Michigan, I am left to wonder, if Rev. Brazier was to remain in the PAW, whether he could be a force to help the organization abandon the water/spirit doctrine of the new birth.

It is of great interest to me to learn whether or not the PAW is leaning toward a return to the position of justification by faith alone after having abandoned this view for the water/spirit doctrine under the guidance of G.T. Haywood.

Is it of your opinion that a good many within the PAW agree with Bishop Brazier's new birth position or is the water/spirit position still so dominant within the organization that he has already determined continued unity a futile effort. I realize an attempt could be made for the two very different soteriological positions to exist side by side but the merger of the PAJC and the PCI back in 1945 has already proven this move to be a disaster.

Thanks in advance for your time and thoughts.

Shelby Smith
southeastern, Michigan
Please post the link where you found that on his site?

We believe that we should earnestly contend for God's standard of salvation. In the Word of God we find nothing short of a holy, Spirit-filled life with the signs following as on the day of Pentecost.

(Acts 2:4; 8:14-17; 10:44-48; 10:1-6, Romans 12:1-2, Hebrews 12:14).

The only ground upon which God will accept a sinner is repentance from the heart for the sins that he has committed. (Psalm 51:17, Luke 24:47)

We believe in water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ, and the receiving of the Holy Ghost. (Acts 2:38; 10:44-48; 19:1-6)
We believe in the Translation of Saints.
We believe in the Millennium.
We believe in the Lord's Supper.
We believe in Divine Healing.
We believe in a wholly sanctified life and final judgment.
http://www.apostolicchurchofgod.net/aboutus_wha.html

[Adino]

Please post the link where you found that on his siteHere's the link on SALVATION (http://www.apostolicchurchofgod.net/aboutus_sal.html).

The full article reads as follows:
Dear Friend,

A great question faces you as you read this. It is not Have you joined a church? or Do you have religion? or Are you doing your very best? The great question is Have you been born again?

You may ask yourself What makes this question so important? The answer is simply this: Jesus said, "Except a man be born again he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John 3:3).

If you are to be truly saved, you must trust the Lord Jesus Christ and receive Him into your heart as Savior and Lord. This is what it means to be born again. The very moment you put your trust in the Lord Jesus Christ, He comes into your heart in the Person [do we want to say presence instead?] of the Holy Spirit, and eternal life begins.

Do not be misled into believing that the gift of the Holy Ghost was only for the apostles. God intended that all who believe in the Lord Jesus should receive that precious Gift. Hence, Peter said, "The promise is unto you and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call" (Acts 2:39).

There are many people trusting in good works. They often say, "I treat everybody right." Friend, salvation does not come through works; it comes only through the matchless grace of God. "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any many should boast" (Ephesians 2:8-9).

There are still others who say that water baptism is not necessary. Yet, on the day of Pentecost, those who were convicted by the preaching of Peter asked, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?" Peter answered, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the Name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost" (Acts 2:38).

The sacred Scriptures attest to the essential need of water baptism, and we must believe the Scriptures because it is through them that the way of salvation is made known.

My friend, you may belong to a church, or be a church officer. You may be religious, or you may be active in church work and going the best you can. You may be striving to live right and attain a high moral standard. Yet, if you have not been born of the water and of the Spirit, you cannot enter into the kingdom of God (John 3:5).

Jesus Christ came to seek and to save. So it is in the Spirit of Christ that we extend to an invitation to visit the Apostolic Church of God in our Sunday morning worship services or our Wednesday evening Bible class. It is our fervent wish to assist you in whatever way we can. I have contacted his church asking for clarification. I will try again if I do not get a response soon.

[Praxeas]

There are still others who say that water baptism is not necessary. Yet, on the day of Pentecost, those who were convicted by the preaching of Peter asked, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?" Peter answered, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the Name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost" (Acts 2:38 (http://biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=KJV&passage=Acts+2%3A38)).

The sacred Scriptures attest to the essential need of water baptism, and we must believe the Scriptures because it is through them that the way of salvation is made known.

[Praxeas]

That website is messed up lol. Thanks for the link...I still can't find it off of the regular menu though. Weird

[Adino]

Directly under the church name on the home page are three links:

New Members Video
Weekly Services
Do you believe?

Click "Do you believe?"

[Praxeas]

Directly under the church name on the home page are three links:

New Members Video
Weekly Services
Do you believe?

Click "Do you believe?"

Ah...got it. Thanks

[TRFrance]

What's this about Ellis "saying that a person can have the gift of tongues but not have the Holy Ghost"???

I'm tempted to write him about this one....

I remember maybe in 2000 or 2001 visiting his church website, looking to download some apostolic sermons. I don't remember the name of the sermon or even the topic any more, but I very clearly remember hearing him saying that.

I know, it was one of those "I cant believe my ears" moments. When I heard him say that I was not only disturbed but just plain baffled. Now, reflecting on it, its a bit sad to me that a supposedly "Apostolic" pastor could be so way off like that.

In a way, I'm hoping he simply misspoke, but honestly, I don't think he did at all. He meant what he said, although I cant figure what biblical grounds he would have for such a statement.
.......

Andino, if you do contact him to get clarification on that, I'd love to hear what he says.

[totalpraise]

Perhaps he based this on a creative interpretation of I Cor 13??

[Jason B]

I was raised in Trinitarian Pentecost and was saved and filled with the Holy Ghost at the age of 5. I started preaching at 16 and held my first license to preach at age 16. I was educated in "Trinitarian" Bible Colleges. I have never heard a "Three God" message in my life.
It is by the grace and mercy of God that I received the Revelation of Jesus Christ and know Him as the Mighty God. I am thankful that I was baptized in the name of Jesus Christ and I identify with HIM as my Messiah, Lord and God. It is a shame that we want to resort to name calling and bashing to lift up out theological position.
IMHO - Most in the Oneness movement - have been TAUGHT Oneness Theology and Wesleyan Holiness Ideology and have NEVER had a true Revelation of Jesus Christ. They know Him with head knowledge but not in a true Revelation of who He is!

i can tell you from experience this is not true about oneness in my life, but partially true concering some "holiness"issues, however the holy host has helped me to see those "standards" in there rightful place (non-salvational issues)

[Jason B]

I can't say much about his standards as I didn't get much opportunity to see them. I do know, however, that I have recordings where the man preaches the New Birth doctrine so hard that it would erase ANY question of what he believed.

amen, first generation myself, born again since jan 23,2000

[onegod1]

I have a special place in my heart for the Pentecostal Assemblies of the World. Bishop G.T. Haywood is one of my "Heroes of the Faith". Many times, I've sang at PAW churches, for Revivals and Conferences. I have many PAW records (dating myself here) and CD's. One interesting CD is entitled "A Tribute to the Bishops" (a tribute to all the men that have ever been Presiding Bishops of the PAW), that featured recordings by a PAW General Convocation Choir under the direction of Elder Abney, pastor of Bethel Pentecostal Church in Grand Rapids, Michigan. The first PAW I ever attended was Bethlehem Temple, pastored by Elder B.T. Scott, in Flint, Michigan, where I heard (then) Presiding Bishop Morris E. Golder, of PAW fame, preach.

Currently, I live just a couple miles from Greater Grace Temple in Detroit, where Assistant Presiding Bishop of the PAW, Elder Ellis, is the pastor.

As a kid, one of our "three musketeers" was a PAW Evangelist's kid. He and I (and our families) still make the "church rounds" today!

At their Holy Convocation coming up later this month (August), the Chief Presiding Biship is going to present his "Apostolic Manifesto" to all the Bishops and Elders. It is a clarion call for the PAW to get back to its Apostolic roots, holiness, and being a "relevant" Oneness Pentecostal body in today's world.

[bishoph]

At their Holy Convocation coming up later this month (August), the Chief Presiding Biship is going to present his "Apostolic Manifesto" to all the Bishops and Elders. It is a clarion call for the PAW to get back to its Apostolic roots, holiness, and being a "relevant" Oneness Pentecostal body in today's world.

I would love to see this "Apostolic Manifesto." Bishop Horace Smith was quoted by the Chicago newspaper, when they were reporting on Bishop Brazier's departure from the PAW, as saying if it wasn't for my position within the organization I would leave with him. He has at various times endorsed the OSAS doctrine that Brazier preaches.

[Apprehended]

It is sad to me, that we have come to a day when we rejoice over the concept of becoming "mainstream."

As I look at God's people throughout time, his "church" has never been mainstream. In the OT, the nation of Israel was given 613 commandments, many of which had no relevance other than separation/distinction from those around them. God wanted anyone who saw an Israelite to immediately be able to identify them as such, this by its very nature set them aside from the "mainstream" of society not to mention their belief in the "only true God."

The idea of the modern day church assimilating into the "mainstream" religious circles, reeks of a decent into compromise and if not checked into apostasy. JMHO

I could not have said it better if I would have tried. Thank you.

Everytime I think of becoming what some call "progessive," I feel like going on a long fast, stay up all night a few nights in prayer, recalling to mind the words of Jesus, "If any man would come after me, let him deny himself take up his cross and follow me."

Too many are trying so hard in their progressive manner to be greater than their Lord to be above their Master. If he had to do it, how is it that the progressive minded can do it any better with what ever scheme, gimmick or method that they might have in mind. God will come to his HOLY TEMPLE every time. "The Lord whom you seek shall SUDDENLY COME...."

Denying SELF and taking up the cross is such an outmoded idea. It is so ancient. It is so antequated and meaningless today.

[thedove34]

I'm listening to you and I'm saying to myself why the name calling.If you believe what you believe then do what you believe.

[thedove34]

This is wild PAW started from the Assembly of God which came from the COGIC.Check your history.PAW used to be triune.Wow

[gthaywood1880]

PAW was founded in 1906, COGIC founded in 1907 as a Pntecostal org., Assemblies of God founded in 1914. The PAW is the oldest Pentecostal and Apostolic org.

[TRFrance]

Directly under the church name on the home page are three links:

New Members Video
Weekly Services
Do you believe?

Click "Do you believe?"


Here's the link on SALVATION (http://www.apostolicchurchofgod.net/aboutus_sal.html).

The full article reads as follows:I have contacted his church asking for clarification. I will try again if I do not get a response soon.That website is messed up lol. Thanks for the link...I still can't find it off of the regular menu though. Weird
This is the direct link.

http://www.acog-chicago.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=116&Itemid=161

They do seem to be a one-stepper church. This is definitely 1-stepper language:"If you are to be truly saved, you must trust the Lord Jesus Christ and receive Him into your heart as Savior and Lord. This is what it means to be born-again. The very moment you put your trust in the Lord Jesus Christ, He comes into your heart in the Person of the Holy Spirit, and eternal life begins."
They definitely speak of water baptism and the Holy Ghost as being important, but they dont speak of them as being elements required for the New Birth.

[Sam]

...
They do seem to be a one-stepper church. This is definitely 1-stepper language:[INDENT]"If you are to be truly saved, you must trust the Lord Jesus Christ and receive Him into your heart as Savior and Lord. This is what it means to be born-again. The very moment you put your trust in the Lord Jesus Christ, He comes into your heart in the Person of the Holy Spirit, and eternal life begins."
...


As a one-stepper Apostolic Pentecostal I would have no problem with that.

[TRFrance]

As a one-stepper Apostolic Pentecostal I would have no problem with that.
Well, since the PAW has been officially a 3-stepper organization for the longest time, I could see why many of their ministers would have a problem with it.

[Jermyn Davidson]

whoa!

wow!

man, this is big-- whoa! :) :( :) :( :)
(just downloaded Bishop Brazier's Church "Doctrine" book.... Interesting, to say the least.

[tstew]

whoa!

wow!

man, this is big-- whoa! :) :( :) :( :)
(just downloaded Bishop Brazier's Church "Doctrine" book.... Interesting, to say the least.

Yeah, I think Brazier left the PAW a while ago. He was always one of their Bishops that I admired the most.

[SOUNWORTHY]

i wouldn't doubt it one bit. the things I hear going on in the PAW and COGIC make the UPC look like angels!!! lol seriously

We are as near as you'r gonna get!!:thumbsup

[TRFrance]

whoa!

wow!

man, this is big-- whoa! :) :( :) :( :)
(just downloaded Bishop Brazier's Church "Doctrine" book.... Interesting, to say the least.
Interesting?

Feel free to elaborate on that.

[Sam]

whoa!

wow!

man, this is big-- whoa! :) :( :) :( :)
(just downloaded Bishop Brazier's Church "Doctrine" book.... Interesting, to say the least.

What is so interesting?

[Jermyn Davidson]

Interesting?

Feel free to elaborate on that.

What is so interesting?


Interesting because I agree with him on salvation, in my heart.


I honestly believe that this knowledge is leading me to a place to where I would be distracted from the course that God has allowed me to take and be blessed in Him (I really do think it is His Will that I am here).

I'm really trying to commit my ways to the Lord so that my life makes some kind of sense, so that I can live out at least one of His purposes in the amount of time He has allotted me.


It's good and bad for me to know specifically about this church that has the same background as I and yet believes and teaches as I do now.

[apostolicbaby]

The PAW was tolerant way too long and these guys have helped destroy the oldest Oneness organization in America. Their false doctrine that excuses their lifestyle was a prelude to embracing other false doctrines and overtures to the Trinitarian movement in general. The PAW should say good riddance.

you are just rude person just because u don't black people you want the PAW to say good riddance. what about upci, gateway and all other Apostolic organizations it started with PAW and it is going to end with PAW. there is no such thing as the Trinty there is only ONE GOD & HE'S NAME IS JESSSUSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:bliss

[Jack Shephard]

you are just rude person just because u don't black people you want the PAW to say good riddance. what about upci, gateway and all other Apostolic organizations it started with PAW and it is going to end with PAW. there is no such thing as the Trinty there is only ONE GOD & HE'S NAME IS JESSSUSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:bliss

Simmer, Simmer...down. Epley hasn't posted on here in a while and that post was long ago. Are you new to AFF?

[Truthseeker]

you are just rude person just because u don't black people you want the PAW to say good riddance. what about upci, gateway and all other Apostolic organizations it started with PAW and it is going to end with PAW. there is no such thing as the Trinty there is only ONE GOD & HE'S NAME IS JESSSUSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:bliss

What does "U don't black people"?

I doubt it's going to end with PAW.

Why do you even bring up him not liking black people? Where do you get that from his post?

Some wear there race on their shoulders and way too sensitive making taking issue when no issue to take.

[CC1]

you are just rude person just because u don't black people you want the PAW to say good riddance. what about upci, gateway and all other Apostolic organizations it started with PAW and it is going to end with PAW. there is no such thing as the Trinty there is only ONE GOD & HE'S NAME IS JESSSUSSS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:bliss

Oh I see the race card gets played even on religious forums! So I am curious. If a black person says anything critical about a predominantly white Pentecostal org. is he a racist?

Chill out. If you are not adult enough to discuss people and org.'s don't post here. You sound just like those who says to anybody that criticizes any policy of the Obama administration "you are just racist". Absurd!

If you had actually read (or perhaps comprehended) Elder Epley's post you would have seen he revered the PAW of old and was only lamenting that it has changed doctrinally over the years.

[Truthseeker]

What does "U don't black people" mean?

I doubt it's going to end with PAW.

Why do you even bring up him not liking black people? Where do you get that from his post?

Some wear their race on their shoulders and way too sensitive taking issue when there's no issue to take.


corrected post. I can kill a post with type errors. :girlytantrum

[BishopMHaywood]

skipped pages 12 - 13 (I think, it was about 30 minutes ago, before I registered) so I may be saying what has already been stated, but:

Bishop Noel Jones has not left the PAW.

Also, there should be no problem with Oneness preachers taking over Triny churches, the only ones I know of who have done this have made them into Oneness churches = Victory!

I was born and raised PAW, there are a variety of degrees in everything there, PAW leadership is not structured to have true authority over local assemblies so it's hard to control what happens other than putting them out of the org. There are many generalizations about the PAW in this thread that are simply inaccurate. The vast majority of PAW churches are quite solid, there are, of course, exceptions.

I have found the PAW to be quite useless as far as functioning for the purposes that lead people to work together. I think it has become a place to send money and not much more, but most of the individual churches are good.

[Sabby]

Then why not just use the divisive terms - Oneness and Trinitarian instead of the inflammatory terms - Jesus Only and Three God Preachers. I absolutely hate it when I hear either one. I was NEVER a Trinitarian or Three God Preacher and I never claimed the Oneness or Jesus Only label. We all know how unchristian it is to use such divisive language.

We should be Bible Preachers. My theological upbringing was the Trinity and I was baptized in the F/S/HG formula in my young life. When I saw that the only way the NT believers were baptized was using the name of Jesus as identification with the Messiah and Anointed one - I was baptized in the Name of Jesus Christ. I have never baptized any one any other way - even in the COGOP and A/G except in the Name of Jesus Christ. That is not a Oneness position - it is a BIBLE position!

:amen

[brianmidwest]

The problems with the various organizations are all indicative of one truth, that organizations are made of men, and men are prone to sin.

[Sam]

Then why not just use the divisive terms - Oneness and Trinitarian instead of the inflammatory terms - Jesus Only and Three God Preachers. I absolutely hate it when I hear either one. I was NEVER a Trinitarian or Three God Preacher and I never claimed the Oneness or Jesus Only label. We all know how unchristian it is to use such divisive language.

We should be Bible Preachers. My theological upbringing was the Trinity and I was baptized in the F/S/HG formula in my young life. When I saw that the only way the NT believers were baptized was using the name of Jesus as identification with the Messiah and Anointed one - I was baptized in the Name of Jesus Christ. I have never baptized any one any other way - even in the COGOP and A/G except in the Name of Jesus Christ. That is not a Oneness position - it is a BIBLE position!

Why even use terms like "trinitarian" or "oneness" or "one God" or "Jesus Only" or "Three Gods"? Why not just agree that we all believe that God is Father, Son, and Holy Ghost and leave the baptismal formula in the local church between the one being baptized and the one doing the baptism? If someone says, "I baptize you in the name of the Lord" or "I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" or "I baptize you in the name of Jesus Christ" doesn't God know what that name is?

[Sabby]

Why even use terms like "trinitarian" or "oneness" or "one God" or "Jesus Only" or "Three Gods"? Why not just agree that we all believe that God is Father, Son, and Holy Ghost and leave the baptismal formula in the local church between the one being baptized and the one doing the baptism? If someone says, "I baptize you in the name of the Lord" or "I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" or "I baptize you in the name of Jesus Christ" doesn't God know what that name is?

Sam, isn't knowing the virtual name the family in heaven and earth is named something that should be taught prior to baptism. Also, shouldn't the purpose of baptism be taught, and if it is, wouldn't Jesus' name baptism be absolutely clear?

If we "all agreed" that Jesus IS the Father, Son and Holy Ghost then I could go with what you've said.
I'll give you an example from personal history. A number of years ago I pastored an independent church. I felt we needed a "connection" to organizational ministry for fellowship of the folks in attendance. I called the Church of God HQ in the NW to talk about fellowship, meetings, and even credentialing. Once the gentleman on the phone realized that I had attended a UPCI Bible College his tone changed dramatically. He told me that the ONLY way I could be licensed or whatever in the CofG would be if I signed a statement to the effect that in no uncertain terms that I would water baptize ONLY in the name of the F,S&HG and would NOT baptize in the name of Jesus' only. That ended my budding relationship with the CofG. The ministry just does not agree that the "name" of the F,S&HG is Jesus.

I think I know where you're coming from, because it is Jesus alone, after all, that saves.

[Sabby]

skipped pages 12 - 13 (I think, it was about 30 minutes ago, before I registered) so I may be saying what has already been stated, but:

Bishop Noel Jones has not left the PAW.

Also, there should be no problem with Oneness preachers taking over Triny churches, the only ones I know of who have done this have made them into Oneness churches = Victory!

I was born and raised PAW, there are a variety of degrees in everything there, PAW leadership is not structured to have true authority over local assemblies so it's hard to control what happens other than putting them out of the org. There are many generalizations about the PAW in this thread that are simply inaccurate. The vast majority of PAW churches are quite solid, there are, of course, exceptions.

I have found the PAW to be quite useless as far as functioning for the purposes that lead people to work together. I think it has become a place to send money and not much more, but most of the individual churches are good.

OUCH!