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Digging4Truth
03-05-2007, 05:08 PM
Quite often the NT writers will quote OT scripture and demonstrate where this is a fulfillment or offer a greater explanation of these scriptures.

Some examples would be the writings of Joel when it is exclaimed "This is that"
The writings of Jeremiah are recalled concerning the prophecy of the new covenant that God was going to make.

I have heard the scriptures below quoted in various sermons in reference to the endtime.

Who shall be able to stand... they say.
He shall sit as a refiner & purifier of silver... is spoken speaking of some future time.

I see no reference by the apostles at any point in scripture that apply the scriptures below to a future/NT area happening.

Malachi 3:1 Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts.
Malachi 3:2 But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he [is] like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
Malachi 3:3 And he shall sit [as] a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.

Does anyone else have any biblical backing for using these scriptures in that manner?

berkeley
03-05-2007, 05:15 PM
The messenger that shall prepare the way was John the Baptist.

Matthew 3

1In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,

2And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

3For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.
Matthew 3
11I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

12Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Digging4Truth
03-05-2007, 05:32 PM
This still doesn't seem to make any references that tie the scriptures you have provided to the writings in Malachi.

As a matter of fact your own references send them to another book.

Please correct me if I am wrong... but the only word that I see that would tie these writings to the writings of Malachi is the term messenger.

Note below...


Matthew 3
1In those days came John the Baptist, preaching in the wilderness of Judaea,
2And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
3For this is he that was spoken of by the prophet Esaias, saying, The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight.

The prophecy that Matthew is speaking of was the prophecy of Isaiah.


Matthew 3
11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
12Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Also in the quote above there is a term fire used but to tie this to Malachi would be a speculation at best.

Let me demonstrate how positive the quotations are oftentimes when the apostles are speaking of an OT prophecy.

Below are the writings of Jeremiah
Jer 31:33 But this [shall be] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
Jer 31:34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

This is a recollection of this prophecy in Hebrews.

Hbr 10:15 [Whereof] the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
Hbr 8:10 For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Hbr 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Hbr 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

Because of this clear recollection of an OT prophecy I can then, with good confidence, apply these scriptures in Jeremiah to the experience of NT salvation.

I have heard these scriptures in Malachi being applied to endtime events all my life and in my study today it appears that there is not clear calling of these scriptures in that frame of reference by the apostles.

Intersting...

Eliseus
03-05-2007, 05:45 PM
1. The scripture has its primary fulfillment in the first advent of Christ, obviously.

2. The PRINCIPLE illustrated by the prophecy however can be applied to the second advent as well. The prophecy takes up for consideration the thought that when the Lord comes, many would not be able to "stand" or "abide". Was it not also said that our Lord was "set for the fall and rising of many in Israel"? So the thought then is that the Lord's presence (parousia?) separates wheat from chaff. Other new testament passages speak of the separating in the end of the age, as well as a fiery "purging" of the wicked out of the kingdom.

So then the prophecy expresses a PRINCIPLE that may be applied to the second advent, in my opinion, although the prophecy itself refers primarily to the first advent.

3. Have you considered that the new testament writers understood prophetic fulfillment differently than we do today?

Read this: http://breusswane.blogspot.com/2007/01/here-are-some-quotes-from-g.html

Digging4Truth
03-05-2007, 05:50 PM
1. The scripture has its primary fulfillment in the first advent of Christ, obviously.

2. The PRINCIPLE illustrated by the prophecy however can be applied to the second advent as well. The prophecy takes up for consideration the thought that when the Lord comes, many would not be able to "stand" or "abide". Was it not also said that our Lord was "set for the fall and rising of many in Israel"? So the thought then is that the Lord's presence (parousia?) separates wheat from chaff. Other new testament passages speak of the separating in the end of the age, as well as a fiery "purging" of the wicked out of the kingdom.

So then the prophecy expresses a PRINCIPLE that may be applied to the second advent, in my opinion, although the prophecy itself refers primarily to the first advent.

3. Have you considered that the new testament writers understood prophetic fulfillment differently than we do today?

Read this: http://breusswane.blogspot.com/2007/01/here-are-some-quotes-from-g.html

I will take a look.

The reason I am asking is because I ran across what, I believe, may well be exactly what these scriptures are speaking of.

I will present my thoughts once I have finished my study.

Eliseus
03-05-2007, 05:56 PM
Here (http://www.bible-researcher.com/swanson.html) is another article which contains a quote I found interesting in light of the topic of this thread...

For it is often the case that grammatical-historical exegesis alone, without the added verification or information from the NT, is not able to provide sufficient warrant for confidently deducing the implications drawn by the NT. (10)

Digging4Truth
03-06-2007, 01:51 AM
Here (http://www.bible-researcher.com/swanson.html) is another article which contains a quote I found interesting in light of the topic of this thread...

2 very interesting articles.

Thanks for submitting them.

berkeley
03-06-2007, 01:52 AM
uh.. My bad! lol.. I wasn't payin attention..

Praxeas
03-06-2007, 01:57 AM
Mat 11:10 For this is the one of whom it is written, "Behold, I send My messenger before Your face, who shall prepare Your way before You."

Luk 1:76 And you, child, will be called the prophet of the Highest, for you shall go before the face of the Lord to prepare His ways,

Luk 7:26 But what did you go out to see? A prophet? Yes, I say to you, and much more than a prophet.
Luk 7:27 This is he of whom it is written, "Behold, I send My messenger before Your face, who shall prepare Your way before You."


John the Baptist

berkeley
03-06-2007, 02:00 AM
Mat 11:10 For this is the one of whom it is written, "Behold, I send My messenger before Your face, who shall prepare Your way before You."

Luk 1:76 And you, child, will be called the prophet of the Highest, for you shall go before the face of the Lord to prepare His ways,

Luk 7:26 But what did you go out to see? A prophet? Yes, I say to you, and much more than a prophet.
Luk 7:27 This is he of whom it is written, "Behold, I send My messenger before Your face, who shall prepare Your way before You."


John the Baptistso I was right.. lol :ty

Praxeas
03-06-2007, 02:24 AM
so I was right.. lol :ty

Ye barketh too sooneth

berkeley
03-06-2007, 02:26 AM
Ye barketh too sooneth:ranting

Digging4Truth
03-06-2007, 07:27 AM
Okay... well... apparently this bible study thing is far simpler than I had imagined. :)

Chan
03-06-2007, 07:38 AM
Quite often the NT writers will quote OT scripture and demonstrate where this is a fulfillment or offer a greater explanation of these scriptures.

Some examples would be the writings of Joel when it is exclaimed "This is that"
The writings of Jeremiah are recalled concerning the prophecy of the new covenant that God was going to make.

I have heard the scriptures below quoted in various sermons in reference to the endtime.

Who shall be able to stand... they say.
He shall sit as a refiner & purifier of silver... is spoken speaking of some future time.

I see no reference by the apostles at any point in scripture that apply the scriptures below to a future/NT area happening.



Does anyone else have any biblical backing for using these scriptures in that manner?When, at any time in the past (but subsequent to the prophecy) has that prophecy been fulfilled? It hasn't. Thus, it is for a yet future time. I would agree with others here that the first part of the passage refers to John the Baptist but the rest of the passage...

"and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts. But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he [is] like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap: And he shall sit [as] a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness" there may be parallel with Matthew 25:31-46...

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

Digging4Truth
03-06-2007, 08:01 AM
When, at any time in the past (but subsequent to the prophecy) has that prophecy been fulfilled? It hasn't. Thus, it is for a yet future time. I would agree with others here that the first part of the passage refers to John the Baptist but the rest of the passage...

I do understand this concept entirely... Thanks for posting here.

But... I think I have found where it has been fulfilled. I will have to finish reading 2 major & 1 minor prophets books in the OT before I am able to present my thoughts on this.

But... If I am able to demonstrate where this was fulfilled in the past would you still feel that this is a prophecy of John the Baptist?

In other words....Do you believe in dual fulfillment of scripture?

Chan
03-06-2007, 08:04 AM
I do understand this concept entirely... Thanks for posting here.

But... I think I have found where it has been fulfilled. I will have to finish reading 2 major & 1 minor prophets books in the OT before I am able to present my thoughts on this.

But... If I am able to demonstrate where this was fulfilled in the past would you still feel that this is a prophecy of John the Baptist?

In other words....Do you believe in dual fulfillment of scripture?I believe that only the first part of the passage refers to John the Baptist ("Behold, I send My messenger before Your face, who shall prepare Your way before You"), the rest of it is a yet-future event referring to Jesus.

Yes, I do believe that prophecy often has dual fulfillments.

Digging4Truth
03-06-2007, 08:09 AM
I believe that only the first part of the passage refers to John the Baptist ("Behold, I send My messenger before Your face, who shall prepare Your way before You"), the rest of it is a yet-future event referring to Jesus.

Yes, I do believe that prophecy often has dual fulfillments.

Okay... I do too... so whether the connection I have found is a true fulfillment or not it will not affect anybody else's feelings on whether this is endtime prophecy etc.

When I finish my study I look forward to your thoughts.