View Full Version : The UPCI Needs a Healer
Truly Blessed
11-01-2007, 04:32 PM
Really? Where do you find the stats that show the UPCI as one of the fastest growing churches?
And, are you saying that two UPC churches in the same town will bring more growth to the church than if one of them left the UPCI?
Not trying to be argumentative, just curious.
Apparently he didn't read my earlier post. The UPCI had 1.6 million overseas constituents in 1995, and that is what they stated as their overseas constituents at GC. They had more than the 300,000 Easter Sunday attendance announced at GC in 1995. That does not reflect an org. that is one of the fastest growing.
pastorj
11-01-2007, 05:12 PM
Two questions, simply to sate my curiosity...
#1 - Is there REALLY an attempt to recruit UPCI men by the sponsors of the Tulsa Meeting. I mean, really... a mailed out flyer DOES NOT constitute active recruitment in anybody's books... even if they got your address from a book they pay for yearly.
#2 - The question has been raised about missionaries and whether or not PIM's will get paid. Let's flip that coin over and ask a better question, "Will the UPCI continue to send the money that the missionaries themselves raised for their work on the field even if they make the decision to no longer continue under the UPCI banner?"
Just a couple of thoughts... any answers... suppositions...
pelathais
11-01-2007, 07:02 PM
I gotcha.
As far as the UPC being one of the fastest growing organizations, I highly doubt that. I'm not accusing T. French of lying, I'm just curious as to how he defines "growth".
And, whether it's growing or not, I seriously doubt it's one of the fastest growing organizations. And, please don't be offended, I challenge anyone, even myself, to back up their assertions, so it's nothing personal.
And, as far as the churches splitting, you are referring to one church splitting and becoming two, rather than one church leaving the UPC, correct?
In either case, I'm not so sure it's always a bad thing, otherwise why would we plant churches? Sometimes you have to divide to multiply.
uhm... there were a couple of guys, at least who called Easty on his remark of "the UPCI being one of the fastest growing churches..."
You guys ever go to UPCI.org (http://upci.org/)? Look at the LEFT HAND column. That statement has been on the UPCI home page since March of 1997. Ten years+ is an eternity on the web.
The link (http://upci.org/about.asp) that gives more "about" info restates this and gives further numbers.
Quibble with Bro Eastman if you will, but he was citing the "official" account of the UPCI. I remember the PPH Elective Series booklet entitled About the UPCI which opened with this statement; that was from some time in the 1980's.
Joseph Miller
11-01-2007, 10:04 PM
Yawn.......the "need a healer" schtick is really getting old and is just as off base with your post here as in your first very eloquent one starting this thread.
The UPC has Jesus, has competent leadership in KH and a host of other dedicated men.
The conservatives have their leaders who are now moving in unity their direction and leaving the UPC to move in unity it's direction.
No amazing "to the rescue" healer needed for the UPC or the men leaving it!
Each will have more unity of purpose once the split is done. Now I think I am done with this thread if all you are going to do is post your lame cry for some mystical healing leader to arise from the masses and put Humpty Dumpty back together again.
:scoregood:scoregood:scoregood
pelathais
11-02-2007, 04:21 AM
Brothers and Sisters....
4731 views.....
461 post...
47 pages....
The UPCI Needs a Healer
Yes, brother. You've stirred the pot. One thought, and I mention this because I wish you the very best...
... but with almost 5,000 people looking at your original post shouldn't you at least register that web address that you've got in the sig line?
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2158/1824943550_9e5fa2e1a5.jpg http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2306/1824248351_2a934cc2d7.jpg
Michael Phelps
11-02-2007, 05:20 AM
uhm... there were a couple of guys, at least who called Easty on his remark of "the UPCI being one of the fastest growing churches..."
You guys ever go to UPCI.org (http://upci.org/)? Look at the LEFT HAND column. That statement has been on the UPCI home page since March of 1997. Ten years+ is an eternity on the web.
The link (http://upci.org/about.asp) that gives more "about" info restates this and gives further numbers.
Quibble with Bro Eastman if you will, but he was citing the "official" account of the UPCI. I remember the PPH Elective Series booklet entitled About the UPCI which opened with this statement; that was from some time in the 1980's.
I just wanted to know which stats Eastie was referring to.
By the way, does anyone know how they calculate the membership of the UPCI? Is it by Easter Sunday morning attendance? Or, is it by registered members in a congregation?
rkentsmith
11-02-2007, 06:49 AM
Yes, brother. You've stirred the pot. One thought, and I mention this because I wish you the very best...
... but with almost 5,000 people looking at your original post shouldn't you at least register that web address that you've got in the sig line?
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2158/1824943550_9e5fa2e1a5.jpg http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2306/1824248351_2a934cc2d7.jpg
6500 view....
505 posts...
51 pages....
The UPCI Needs a Healer....
Thank you brother for pointing out my typo.....
www.gotthirstconroe.com.....
The sight is brand new and links back to our church website....
www.gotthirstconroe.com is an outreach project we kicked off last week around the idea the our community is thirsty...
We purchased 10000 bottles of water to give away....
Take a look at the pics....
God Bless
The UPC Spanish churches in America are the churches that are exploding in growth. Yester year's prominant UPC churches seem to be in a holding pattern. The Spanish churches are passing a lot of mainstream UPC churches up both in revival and size.
many have not taking notice Yet but one day it will be to obvious to ignore
rgcraig
11-02-2007, 07:16 AM
Yawn.......the "need a healer" schtick is really getting old and is just as off base with your post here as in your first very eloquent one starting this thread.
The UPC has Jesus, has competent leadership in KH and a host of other dedicated men.
The conservatives have their leaders who are now moving in unity their direction and leaving the UPC to move in unity it's direction.
No amazing "to the rescue" healer needed for the UPC or the men leaving it!
Each will have more unity of purpose once the split is done. Now I think I am done with this thread if all you are going to do is post your lame cry for some mystical healing leader to arise from the masses and put Humpty Dumpty back together again.:hanky - Amen!
Darryl
11-02-2007, 08:57 AM
I just wanted to know which stats Eastie was referring to.
By the way, does anyone know how they calculate the membership of the UPCI? Is it by Easter Sunday morning attendance? Or, is it by registered members in a congregation?
Yes, that is the way our numbers are gathered. I was in our district conference and they asked us to write the number of our most attended service. It didn't matter what the service was or who was there. Kinda scary because all those in Easter services are NOT members of our church. Maybe numbers should be built around mid-week service attendance.
TRFrance
11-02-2007, 01:18 PM
Again forgive the personal reference I certainly have no desire to offend you. I was visiting my father once and went to service with him he is a Charismatic preacher I guess because I was there he preached about the HGB and asked how many had spoken in tongues maybe 20% raised their hands in a crowd of about 2000. The shock on my father's face was evident. As we went to lunch he did not mention it and neither did I.
Very sad.
I remember reading a statistic concerning the Assemblies of God. Apparently they keep stats of how many of their new/recent members are receiving the Holy Ghost, and I believe the number was in the 50-55% range. This was about 10 years ago I read this, but I imagine the number probably hasnt changed that much in the past decade.
Just sad to see so many people going to chuch thinking they're "saved" even without the Holy Ghost, because their church teaches its an 'extra blessing', not a necessity for salvation.
Can not be done.
He had no will to sway the vote one way or another. He as the chair remained neutral.
Unfair analogy.
Imagine the furor of those gleeful it passed, who are already on TV anyway if such a move was taken by an ELECTED official.
(Sorry you asked opinion of RKS, not me)
:hypercoffee
Actully I was asking why RKS thinks that the "healing" he is looking for can only come if the GS comes to Tulsa and makes the statement.
its been a few thousand posts...
even more views....
and RKS still wont offer an answer.....
Michael Phelps
11-02-2007, 01:54 PM
Actully I was asking why RKS thinks that the "healing" he is looking for can only come if the GS comes to Tulsa and makes the statement.
its been a few thousand posts...
even more views....
and RKS still wont offer an answer.....
I think he has "tunnel vision" concerning the method of healing that he would like to see.
Pastor G
11-02-2007, 01:58 PM
I think he has "tunnel vision" concerning the method of healing that he would like to see.
That is the absolute truth!!
Two questions, simply to sate my curiosity...
#1 - Is there REALLY an attempt to recruit UPCI men by the sponsors of the Tulsa Meeting. I mean, really... a mailed out flyer DOES NOT constitute active recruitment in anybody's books... even if they got your address from a book they pay for yearly.
#2 - The question has been raised about missionaries and whether or not PIM's will get paid. Let's flip that coin over and ask a better question, "Will the UPCI continue to send the money that the missionaries themselves raised for their work on the field even if they make the decision to no longer continue under the UPCI banner?"
Just a couple of thoughts... any answers... suppositions...
My brother is a UPCI pastor and we just moments ago spoke about these two points as they were much on my mind today...
1. Jim received his 'invitation'. He said, "If it is a conference...fine, but if it is an attempt to cause division...draw anyone away from the UPCI, I think this is wrong."
I concur...
2. I know nothing about the funds missionaries raise, however, it was mentioned in this thread a few days ago, if these churches/pastors leave the Mothership and do not keep their faith promise, how will this impact those laboring on the filed?!
The answer is too drastic to even consider, IMO...
I repeat my question from days ago, what is the all-fired rush?!
Makes no sense...
And what of Pentecom?! Refresh my memory someone, but didn't Pentecom align with FM?!
What happens when the founder leaves, if he hasn't already?!
The meetings of late have been in St. Louis...this week they were held in Texas.
Hmmmm...
rkentsmith
11-02-2007, 03:32 PM
Actully I was asking why RKS thinks that the "healing" he is looking for can only come if the GS comes to Tulsa and makes the statement.
its been a few thousand posts...
even more views....
and RKS still wont offer an answer .....
Folks...
I indeed mentioned the GS....
But other leaders on both sides of the issue as well............
Go back and read the origonal post....
It appears the tunnel vision is with the celebrants who rejoice in the saddest decision the UPCI has ever made.....
Sadly, many feel this is a liberating move for the UPCI....
But is the decision worth the results.....
Not in my book
rgcraig
11-02-2007, 03:40 PM
Folks...
I indeed mentioned the GS....
But other leaders on both sides of the issue as well............
Go back and read the origonal post....
It appears the tunnel vision is with the celebrants who rejoice in the saddest decision the UPCI has ever made.....
Sadly, many feel this is a liberating move for the UPCI....
But is the decision worth the results.....
Not in my book
I'm not sure you have answered the question yet, but some have asked - - are you sorry to have to leave UPCI?
Folks...
I indeed mentioned the GS....
But other leaders on both sides of the issue as well............
Go back and read the origonal post....
It appears the tunnel vision is with the celebrants who rejoice in the saddest decision the UPCI has ever made.....
Sadly, many feel this is a liberating move for the UPCI....
But is the decision worth the results.....
Not in my book
You answerd my question like Hillary Clinton answers the question of drivers license for illegal aliens.
I will review the first post once again and quote you if needed.
Once more with feeling.... why does "healing" require reversal of the will of the bretheren on res 4?
rkentsmith
11-02-2007, 04:05 PM
I'm not sure you have answered the question yet, but some have asked - - are you sorry to have to leave UPCI?
Dear Sis....
You are living with a misconception...
RKS is not leaving......
And indeed......
The UPCI Needs a Healer
BrotherEastman
11-02-2007, 04:07 PM
I think he has "tunnel vision" concerning the method of healing that he would like to see.
No disrespect intended, but how do you think he has tunnel vision? Brother Smith made a statement about healing that needs to take place within the UPC, he didn'e mention how. It was a general statement. I've seen him start threads, but not go into detail about anything.
Straightline
11-02-2007, 04:13 PM
"And indeed......
The UPCI Needs a Healer"
Bailing wire might do the job
:drama
The ties that bind
are a
Straightline
pelathais
11-02-2007, 04:22 PM
"And indeed......
The UPCI Needs a Healer"
Bailing wire might do the job
:drama
The ties that bind
are a
Straightline
Oh boy!!! You are such an ultracon! To suggest bailing wire for a job that can be more easily done with duct tape???
rkentsmith
11-02-2007, 04:45 PM
You answerd my question like Hillary Clinton answers the question of drivers license for illegal aliens.
I will review the first post once again and quote you if needed.
Once more with feeling.... why does "healing" require reversal of the will of the bretheren on res 4?
Haha.......
There are many on this forum that chose to leave the UPCI......
Why all the angst toward these men who choose to leave for the same reasons.....
That is....
Did not care for what the UPCI stood for in some manner.....
They leave because they are men of convictions...
FTR....
These men driving this meeting are not the kook fringe or rabid cons.....
They simply continue to preach and believe what they did years ago....
IMHO....and that is all this piece is.....
Res 4 must be changed or the split is on....
I will miss those that leave....
God Bless
BoredOutOfMyMind
11-02-2007, 05:17 PM
Oh boy!!! You are such an ultracon! To suggest bailing wire for a job that can be more easily done with duct tape???
Taping a Duck will not Fly!
:killinme
Pastor G
11-02-2007, 05:17 PM
No disrespect intended, but how do you think he has tunnel vision? Brother Smith made a statement about healing that needs to take place within the UPC, he didn'e mention how. It was a general statement. I've seen him start threads, but not go into detail about anything.
Bro. Eastman, This is a quote from Kent's original statement:
General Superintendent Haney….
Lead the way to healing….
Go to Tulsa and tell the brethren you will lead the charge in reversing Tulsa’s decision….
That is mentioning how... That is the only way Kent sees the UPCI being healed.. Tunnel Vision.
BoredOutOfMyMind
11-02-2007, 05:19 PM
No disrespect intended, but how do you think he has tunnel vision? Brother Smith made a statement about healing that needs to take place within the UPC, he didn'e mention how. It was a general statement. I've seen him start threads, but not go into detail about anything.
It was a great thread idea and has gathered different responses with different crowds.
I tend to agree
The UPCI needs a healer!
RandyWayne
11-02-2007, 05:43 PM
Perhaps THIS is the type of man some are waiting for?
[Verse]
Where have all the good men gone
And where are all the gods?
Where's the street-wise Hercules
To fight the rising odds?
Isn't there a white knight upon a fiery steed?
Late at night I toss and turn and dream
of what I need
[Chorus]
We need a healer!
I'm holding out for a healer 'til the end of the night
He's gotta be strong
And he's gotta be fast
And he's gotta be fresh from the fight
I need a healer
I'm holding out for a healor 'til the morning light
He's gotta be sure
And it's gotta be soon
And he's gotta be larger than life
[Verse]
Somewhere after midnight
In my wildest fantasy
Somewhere just beyond my reach
There's someone reaching back for me
Racing on the thunder end rising with the heat
It's gonna take a superman to sweep me off my feet
[Chorus]
[Verse]
Up where the mountains meet the heavens above
Out where the lightning splits the sea
I would swear that there's someone somewhere
Watching me
Through the wind end the chill and the rain
And the storm and the flood
I can feel his approach
Like the fire in my blood
Pastor G
11-02-2007, 05:48 PM
Perhaps THIS is the type of man some are waiting for?
[Verse]
Where have all the good men gone
And where are all the gods?
Where's the street-wise Hercules
To fight the rising odds?
Isn't there a white knight upon a fiery steed?
Late at night I toss and turn and dream
of what I need
[Chorus]
We need a healer!
I'm holding out for a healer 'til the end of the night
He's gotta be strong
And he's gotta be fast
And he's gotta be fresh from the fight
I need a healer
I'm holding out for a healor 'til the morning light
He's gotta be sure
And it's gotta be soon
And he's gotta be larger than life
[Verse]
Somewhere after midnight
In my wildest fantasy
Somewhere just beyond my reach
There's someone reaching back for me
Racing on the thunder end rising with the heat
It's gonna take a superman to sweep me off my feet
[Chorus]
[Verse]
Up where the mountains meet the heavens above
Out where the lightning splits the sea
I would swear that there's someone somewhere
Watching me
Through the wind end the chill and the rain
And the storm and the flood
I can feel his approach
Like the fire in my blood
:snapout Might as well re-write the rest of the songs from "Flashdance."
If you are not jesting.... It is "I Need A Hero."
Sheltiedad
11-02-2007, 05:53 PM
:snapout Might as well re-write the rest of the songs from "Flashdance."
If you are not jesting.... It is "I Need A Hero."
Yes, but I think that is from "Footloose". :D
Pastor G
11-02-2007, 06:01 PM
Yes, but I think that is from "Footloose". :D
I stand corrected... I am just not as up on motion picture soundtracks as I should be...
Perhaps THIS is the type of man some are waiting for?
[Verse]
Where have all the good men gone
And where are all the gods?
Where's the street-wise Hercules
To fight the rising odds?
Isn't there a white knight upon a fiery steed?
Late at night I toss and turn and dream
of what I need
[Chorus]
We need a healer!
I'm holding out for a healer 'til the end of the night
He's gotta be strong
And he's gotta be fast
And he's gotta be fresh from the fight
I need a healer
I'm holding out for a healor 'til the morning light
He's gotta be sure
And it's gotta be soon
And he's gotta be larger than life
[Verse]
Somewhere after midnight
In my wildest fantasy
Somewhere just beyond my reach
There's someone reaching back for me
Racing on the thunder end rising with the heat
It's gonna take a superman to sweep me off my feet
[Chorus]
[Verse]
Up where the mountains meet the heavens above
Out where the lightning splits the sea
I would swear that there's someone somewhere
Watching me
Through the wind end the chill and the rain
And the storm and the flood
I can feel his approach
Like the fire in my blood
:snapout Might as well re-write the rest of the songs from "Flashdance."
If you are not jesting.... It is "I Need A Hero."
After just reading about Bro. MY in Thad's Tab, I think this is the song we need, guys...
We don’t need another political uprising
We don’t need another conqueror on the scene
What we need is a special word that will burn within our hearts
And give us direction from above
We need a word from the Lord...a word from the Lord
Just one word from the Lord will move all the doubts
And cause the sun to shine and give peace of mind
Speak Lord...speak, Lord
Lord, we lack Thy wisdom and Thy understanding
Lord, we lack the very love You showed in the Son
Lord, we’ve altered in Thy ways and we stand so much to gain
So give us your word, Lord...speak Lord
We need a word from the Lord...a word from the Lord
Just one word from the Lord will move all the doubts
And cause the sun to shine and bring peace of mind
Speak Lord...speak, Lord
Straightline
11-02-2007, 06:08 PM
Oh boy!!! You are such an ultracon! To suggest bailing wire for a job that can be more easily done with duct tape???
Pallet-heist:
See posts #245 and #365.
You are sooo behind the times :saycheese
If you expect to hit something,
Aim in a
Straightline
RandyWayne
11-02-2007, 06:09 PM
I keep reading this thread and a few other posts expecting a white knight to ride over the horizon and "heal the rift" caused by resolution 4 (in a manner AGAINST the current vote of course). Then I was listening to this song in my DJ folder, and the two sort of jelled.
Some people just NEED that human authority figure in their lives to fix and solve all their problems.
rgcraig
11-02-2007, 06:10 PM
Dear Sis....
You are living with a misconception...
RKS is not leaving......
And indeed......
The UPCI Needs a Healer
Not sure I'm living with it, but thanks for clearing that up!
RandyWayne
11-02-2007, 06:11 PM
:snapout Might as well re-write the rest of the songs from "Flashdance."
If you are not jesting.... It is "I Need A Hero."
And I WAS jesting. I just turned every "hero" into "Healer".
(Original song by Bonnie Tyler)
rgcraig
11-02-2007, 06:14 PM
Haha.......
There are many on this forum that chose to leave the UPCI......
Why all the angst toward these men who choose to leave for the same reasons.....
That is....
Did not care for what the UPCI stood for in some manner.....
They leave because they are men of convictions...
FTR....
These men driving this meeting are not the kook fringe or rabid cons.....
They simply continue to preach and believe what they did years ago....
IMHO....and that is all this piece is.....
Res 4 must be changed or the split is on....
I will miss those that leave....
God Bless
So you want the healing to be the reversal of the vote......well, don't think that's going to happen.
Maybe the healing is that everyone does what they feel they need to do and no one holds any hard feelings against the other and all go about doing whatever they are suppose to do for the Lord!
Haha.......
There are many on this forum that chose to leave the UPCI......
Why all the angst toward these men who choose to leave for the same reasons.....
That is....
Did not care for what the UPCI stood for in some manner.....
They leave because they are men of convictions...
FTR....
These men driving this meeting are not the kook fringe or rabid cons.....
They simply continue to preach and believe what they did years ago....
IMHO....and that is all this piece is.....
Res 4 must be changed or the split is on....
I will miss those that leave....
God Bless
So that we can have a good discussion on the subject based on understanding, let me point out that I have maintained that the men leaving are very good men who deserve utmost respect.
RKT, again you havent explained why resending Res 4 brings healing? At this point, resending res 4 MIGHT stop a split, but do you really think that will bring healing?
I agree healing is needed, but I dont really understand how resending Res 4 will bring healing?
Im glad you arent leaving.
Praxeas
11-02-2007, 08:31 PM
Folks...
I indeed mentioned the GS....
But other leaders on both sides of the issue as well............
Go back and read the origonal post....
It appears the tunnel vision is with the celebrants who rejoice in the saddest decision the UPCI has ever made.....
Sadly, many feel this is a liberating move for the UPCI....
But is the decision worth the results.....
Not in my book
It was a great decision a long time coming...the sad part are those that can't support it and feel they need to leave.
BTW anyone have stats on how close the vote was when they first voted against TV? Did everyone vote yes on it?
Praxeas
11-02-2007, 08:40 PM
"And indeed......
The UPCI Needs a Healer"
Bailing wire might do the job
:drama
The ties that bind
are a
Straightline
Yes....well no, the UPCI does not need a healer. Healing is for people, not for organizations. So which people need to be healed? IS it a spiritual healing? Physical or emotional?
Is it the UCs that can't live with this and insist on leaving or is it the cons, mods and liberals that believe it's ok to use TV to reach the lost?
Your answer will reveal a lot about you, however what two parties need, that are in division, is conflict resolution.
That demands compromise on BOTH parties....having only one party come and say "we need to reverse our decision to pacify those that are marching out" is NOT compromise NOR is it conflict resolution. It's what America says it will NEVER do with Terrorists...give in to their demands. That's not conflict resolution. Two sides need to come to an agreement both can live with.
Are the UCs that are leaving able to come to an agreement that they can live with and that the non UCs can too?
I don't think so. It's therefore NOT the UPCI that needs healing...it is those individuals that need healing...or maybe a change of opinion or a willingness to find a middle road or common ground.
I think the NON-UCs are willing to have a statement that as an org we condemn most of what passes as TV programming and whole heartedly disapprove of Christians watching them. However we realize that not all TV programming are inheritly evil or lead to sin and that it can be untilized to spread the gospel.
That is the only solution I can see...a condemnation and admission that we should not watch a lot of TV programming just as we should not listen to a lot of radio programming or partake of a lot of Internet stuff or reading material, but that in and of itself, tv, radio, printed material or the internet are not inheritly evil.
What the author of this post is asking for is NOT healing. He's asking those that voted for this to "admit you were wrong and change it back" essentially
Praxeas
11-02-2007, 08:41 PM
Pallet-heist:
See posts #245 and #365.
You are sooo behind the times :saycheese
If you expect to hit something,
Aim in a
Straightline
BTW if a blind leader walks straight towards a ditch and the blind are following....guess what? A straight line will have them both falling into a ditch.
Food for thought for the straightline
Felicity
11-02-2007, 08:42 PM
:musicnotes Que sera, sera,
Whatever will be, will be.
The future's not ours to see.
Que sera, sera
What will be, will be. :musicnotes
pelathais
11-02-2007, 10:55 PM
Pallet-heist:
See posts #245 and #365.
You are sooo behind the times :saycheese
If you expect to hit something,
Aim in a
Straightline
That's a lotta posts to sift through! LOL. http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/images/icons/icon11.gif
It's like following Ariadne's Thread. A true and trustworthy guide through the Labyrinth; but certainly not a straight line. :)
So that we can have a good discussion on the subject based on understanding, let me point out that I have maintained that the men leaving are very good men who deserve utmost respect.
RKT, again you havent explained why resending Res 4 brings healing? At this point, resending res 4 MIGHT stop a split, but do you really think that will bring healing?
I agree healing is needed, but I dont really understand how resending Res 4 will bring healing?
Im glad you arent leaving.
Once again a typo that brought tears of laughter to my eyes. Now I know that I make more than my fair share of typos and misspellings but mine are always boring.
To misspell "rescind" as "resend" is just plain funny because to re-send something would be the opposite of rescinding it.:icecream
Michael Phelps
11-03-2007, 08:00 AM
No disrespect intended, but how do you think he has tunnel vision? Brother Smith made a statement about healing that needs to take place within the UPC, he didn'e mention how. It was a general statement. I've seen him start threads, but not go into detail about anything.
Go back and read his initial post - it seems he thinks the only healing will be brought about if KH goes to Tulsa and reverses the decision made by the constituency.
Maybe this decision IS the healing that the UPCI needed........the dissension will now be minimized by the departure of those who do not agree with the decision.
Go back and read his initial post - it seems he thinks the only healing will be brought about if KH goes to Tulsa and reverses the decision made by the constituency.
Maybe this decision IS the healing that the UPCI needed........the dissension will now be minimized by the departure of those who do not agree with the decision.
Ahhh, Michael...if it were only that simple.
Once again a typo that brought tears of laughter to my eyes. Now I know that I make more than my fair share of typos and misspellings but mine are always boring.
To misspell "rescind" as "resend" is just plain funny because to re-send something would be the opposite of rescinding it.:icecream
LOL! I am glad I could provide you with a bit of comic relief!
LOL! I am glad I could provide you with a bit of comic relief!
After the day, week, month, and year I am having at work I needed it!
irish1
11-03-2007, 01:28 PM
Just a few weeks ago I was privileged to spend some time with one of the giants of Pentecost period over the last 60 years, of the UPCI in particular and I asked him a question as things were leading up to the Tampa conference.
I said that I wished they could interview KP and ask him if leaving the UPCI over this issue was worth it after all. This elder's response astounded me. He said that he was good friends with KP and had recently visited that church on a whim and KP saw him and had him come up and preach for him. (I write that to establish the man's "verifieds" as others on here will claim this is gossip or he is not friends with KP, probably will anyhow but there it is.) He said that on two different occasions over the years since he left the UPCI that KP had made attempts to get back in and both times was rebuffed. He told me that KP told him that it is vicious and lonely running in the circles he is running in.
Some food for thought ...
Mr. Steinway
11-03-2007, 01:30 PM
Just a few weeks ago I was privileged to spend some time with one of the giants of Pentecost period over the last 60 years, of the UPCI in particular and I asked him a question as things were leading up to the Tampa conference.
I said that I wished they could interview KP and ask him if leaving the UPCI over this issue was worth it after all. This elder's response astounded me. He said that he was good friends with KP and had recently visited that church on a whim and KP saw him and had him come up and preach for him. (I write that to establish the man's "verifieds" as others on here will claim this is gossip or he is not friends with KP, probably will anyhow but there it is.) He said that on two different occasions over the years since he left the UPCI that KP had made attempts to get back in and both times was rebuffed. He told me that KP told him that it is vicious and lonely running in the circles he is running in.
Some food for thought ...
KP's finally getting ready to have plenty of company! :D
After the day, week, month, and year I am having at work I needed it!
Well, if it makes you feel any better, we have an upgrade this weekend and I will be at work from 10am tomorrow until at least 6, and likely 8pm.
looks like the worst one in the 9 years ive been there.
Just a few weeks ago I was privileged to spend some time with one of the giants of Pentecost period over the last 60 years, of the UPCI in particular and I asked him a question as things were leading up to the Tampa conference.
I said that I wished they could interview KP and ask him if leaving the UPCI over this issue was worth it after all. This elder's response astounded me. He said that he was good friends with KP and had recently visited that church on a whim and KP saw him and had him come up and preach for him. (I write that to establish the man's "verifieds" as others on here will claim this is gossip or he is not friends with KP, probably will anyhow but there it is.) He said that on two different occasions over the years since he left the UPCI that KP had made attempts to get back in and both times was rebuffed. He told me that KP told him that it is vicious and lonely running in the circles he is running in.
Some food for thought ...
I1, it is no secret to me that KP has attempted to come back to the mother ship. and indeed, it can be vicious. I really feel for him.
irish1
11-03-2007, 01:40 PM
KP's finally getting ready to have plenty of company! :D
I don't think the men leaving the UPCI are going to be fellowshipping him anytime soon.
irish1
11-03-2007, 01:43 PM
I1, it is no secret to me that KP has attempted to come back to the mother ship. and indeed, it can be vicious. I really feel for him.
It was interesting to me as I had, naively evidently, assumed when one left they left and that was that. The church I grew up dropped out of the UPCI at the time of affirmation statement and so I assumed that most of the fellas were as thankful to be out of the bondage of legalism as my former pastor was.
Praxeas
11-03-2007, 03:12 PM
Go back and read his initial post - it seems he thinks the only healing will be brought about if KH goes to Tulsa and reverses the decision made by the constituency.
Maybe this decision IS the healing that the UPCI needed........the dissension will now be minimized by the departure of those who do not agree with the decision.
Right...some times healing means getting rid of what ails ya :kittyhug
Michael Phelps
11-03-2007, 03:56 PM
Ahhh, Michael...if it were only that simple.
It's as simple or complicated as we make it, Barb.
Mr. Steinway
11-03-2007, 04:01 PM
I don't think the men leaving the UPCI are going to be fellowshipping him anytime soon.
I'm thinking of KP fellowshipping those still remaining in the UPCI! :D
irish1
11-03-2007, 05:07 PM
I'm thinking of KP fellowshipping those still remaining in the UPCI! :D
Oh, ok, I got it now.
Tawanda
11-03-2007, 05:22 PM
[SIZE="6"]
The United Pentecostal Church Needs A Healer….
The United Pentecostal Church International Needs a Healer….
RKS
Stop setting around blapping about it and slap some oil on it!
rkentsmith
11-04-2007, 06:08 AM
And so now....
1567 hits later.....
558 responses.....
58 pages....
And....
The UPCI is still in need of healing.....
God Bless all you folks today.....
And so now....
1567 hits later.....
558 responses.....
58 pages....
And....
The UPCI is still in need of healing.....
God Bless all you folks today.....
It seems that I keep hearing these words in my inner beings when I see this thread title...
We don’t need another political uprising
We don’t need another conqueror on the scene
What we need is a special word that will burn within our hearts
And give us direction from above
We need a word from the Lord...a word from the Lord
Just one word from the Lord will move all the doubts
And cause the sun to shine and give peace of mind
Speak Lord...speak, Lord
Lord, we lack Thy wisdom and Thy understanding
Lord, we lack the very love You showed in the Son
Lord, we’ve altered in Thy ways and we stand so much to gain
So give us your word, Lord...speak Lord
We need a word from the Lord...a word from the Lord
Just one word from the Lord will move all the doubts
And cause the sun to shine and bring peace of mind
Speak Lord...speak, Lord
rgcraig
11-04-2007, 06:43 AM
And so now....
1567 hits later.....
558 responses.....
58 pages....
And....
The UPCI is still in need of healing.....
God Bless all you folks today.....:grumpy
timlan2057
11-04-2007, 07:58 AM
Fixed it for you.
The vote didn't go MY way so I'll get all "spiritual" and imply, if not outright say, that those who disagree with me and my buddies need some sort of "healing" as if they "backslid."
Of course I wasn't anywhere NEAR saying the UPC needed a healing 15 years ago when all those guys, many who helped forge the UPC in its infancy, left over the Affirmation Statement but hey, consistency was never one of me and my buddies' strong points.
RKS
rkentsmith
11-04-2007, 08:09 AM
Fixed it for you.
Again an example of needed healing
Michael Phelps
11-04-2007, 08:12 AM
I keep reading this thread, and something just doesn't seem right.
All these posts over a man-made organization needing a healer, but I read very little about the world needing a savior.
Folks, whether the UPCI exists as it did 40 years ago, or any variation thereof, or even if it stops to exist, the world still needs a savior! And, in my opinion, if what happens in the UPCI affects our evangelism efforts, our focus is on the wrong thing, and WE need a healer.
Sorry, I'm in the preaching mode here, so I'll just keep going.
This is a perfect example of how inbred we've become over the years. We dress to make our peers happy. We preach messages that keep the saints satisfied. We sing songs that our members like. We don't let people on the platform that might offend the tithe-paying saints. We won't evangelize certain areas of our cities, because it might offend the pastor across town. We don't bring certain preachers in because we're afraid that we might be called before the board.
Folks, does any of this seem a bit askew to you?
I lived it for years! I know what it's like to preach to the same group of people week after week, and it becoming increasingly harder to keep them happy. I know what it's like to suffer persecution because I preached something that made someone uncomfortable.
And, here we are, saying that the "organization" needs a healer!!!!!!
WHAT ABOUT THE LOST? WHAT ABOUT THE WORLD?
In my humble opinion, we've shortchanged the world many times in order to keep the organization happy.
Maybe it's time that we put our focus where it belongs?
timlan2057
11-04-2007, 08:48 AM
I keep reading this thread, and something just doesn't seem right.
All these posts over a man-made organization needing a healer, but I read very little about the world needing a savior.
Folks, whether the UPCI exists as it did 40 years ago, or any variation thereof, or even if it stops to exist, the world still needs a savior! And, in my opinion, if what happens in the UPCI affects our evangelism efforts, our focus is on the wrong thing, and WE need a healer.
Sorry, I'm in the preaching mode here, so I'll just keep going.
This is a perfect example of how inbred we've become over the years. We dress to make our peers happy. We preach messages that keep the saints satisfied. We sing songs that our members like. We don't let people on the platform that might offend the tithe-paying saints. We won't evangelize certain areas of our cities, because it might offend the pastor across town. We don't bring certain preachers in because we're afraid that we might be called before the board.
Folks, does any of this seem a bit askew to you?
I lived it for years! I know what it's like to preach to the same group of people week after week, and it becoming increasingly harder to keep them happy. I know what it's like to suffer persecution because I preached something that made someone uncomfortable.
And, here we are, saying that the "organization" needs a healer!!!!!!
WHAT ABOUT THE LOST? WHAT ABOUT THE WORLD?
In my humble opinion, we've shortchanged the world many times in order to keep the organization happy.
Maybe it's time that we put our focus where it belongs?
Carl Ballestero has been invoked as a "prophet" as to where the UPC is today.
I have nothing against Ballestero; the old "AMF" school of thought at least attempts to be consistent.
However, from my perspective of 35 years in and around the UPC, C. H. Yadon's diary entry in October 1992 is far more prophetic:
What a shame we could center a conference on an issue so small and divide
the fellowship with carnal contention when we could be out where the real conflict is.
Internal strife arresting our time and attention when the real battle lines of our day are not being touched by us, but others.
Carl Ballestero has been invoked as a "prophet" as to where the UPC is today.
I have nothing against Ballestero; the old "AMF" school of thought at least attempts to be consistent.
However, from my perspective of 35 years in and around the UPC, C. H. Yadon's diary entry in October 1992 is far more prophetic:
What a shame we could center a conference on an issue so small and divide the fellowship with carnal contention when we could be out where the real conflict is.
Internal strife arresting our time and attention when the real battle lines of our day are not being touched by us, but others.
Tim, that's what I'm screamin'...Bishop NJW said, "Some battles are worth dying for."
I ask again and again, is television the battle folks are willing to die and separate over?!
Makes no sense...
Michael Phelps
11-04-2007, 09:15 AM
Carl Ballestero has been invoked as a "prophet" as to where the UPC is today.
I have nothing against Ballestero; the old "AMF" school of thought at least attempts to be consistent.
However, from my perspective of 35 years in and around the UPC, C. H. Yadon's diary entry in October 1992 is far more prophetic:
You know, the UPCI was never meant to be an "organization", it was meant to be a fellowship of like minded brethren. And some of them didn't even agree on the doctrinal points, but they still fellowshipped!!!!!!!
The "organization" was formed to provide funding for missionaries, provide fellowship for autonomous pastors and their congregations, and to be a think tank for evangelism efforts. Now, in many places, it's a governing body, telling the members what they can and cannot do.
I would certainly hate to be the pastor who pastors a church of 100 in a city of 100,000 and have to explain to God why he fought so hard to keep another Apostolic pastor from starting a church in "his" city.
I would certainly hate to be the pastor who has to stand before God and explain why he wouldn't let a God-called evangelist preach in the church he was pastoring who could have preached a message that would reach souls, all because he didn't like the color of the man's shirt.
I would certainly hate to be the District Official who voted "no" to let a man go into a city and start a church because the official had a friend who pastored nearby who was threatened by the prospective pastor's ministry.
I realize this may sound like I'm bashing the UPCI, and I'm not, because I was raised in it, and licensed with it for years.
All I'm saying, ladies and gentlemen, is that an organization is not going to reach the lost. Men and women are going to reach the lost. And if the organization begins to hinder that effort, then we should have the integrity and courage to walk away from the organization - plain and simple.
I'm not advocating the dissolution of the UPCI, nor am I advocating just walking away because every little vote doesn't go your way. But, if a man or woman truly believes that the organization is going against what God has called them to do, it's time to walk away from it.
Didn't Peter, himself, say "Who are we going to obey, men or God"?
rgcraig
11-04-2007, 09:20 AM
Good preaching MP - - any ideas how we can get RKS to read it.
Sister Alvear
11-04-2007, 09:20 AM
I know people on both sides are hurt and as long as organizations and cliques exist that will happen. My husband is a wise man he does not involve us (his family) in these things. Color of cards mean nothing to us...we look at the person...
Michael Phelps
11-04-2007, 09:23 AM
Good preaching MP - - any ideas how we can get RKS to read it.
Lol, I put it out there - its up to the congregation to respond!
Still looking for Brother Smith to tell me why the only way to heal the UPCI is for Res 4 to be reversed, resInded?
RKS, you out there?
rgcraig
11-04-2007, 09:27 AM
Still looking for Brother Smith to tell me why the only way to heal the UPCI is for Res 4 to be reversed, resInded?
RKS, you out there?I think Tim answered that for him.
I think Tim answered that for him.
saw that. LOL!
rgcraig
11-04-2007, 09:53 AM
The past few weeks we're been hearing sermons on "The Vision of the Church" - - wow, after 50 years of church attendance, it's been rocking my tried and true, safe ideas of what I've been accustom to.
Church isn't for me. The church is for those not there today --- the lost, the WHY we are even in all this is to save the lost.
I'm saved and shouldn't be wasting time attending such to make sure I stay saved! I should be attending church to SERVE others that aren't saved - - meet them where they are, let them know that there's someone bigger than all their problems and live a life in front of them where they "get it"..... they desire what I have.
These people are then saved and they become the servers to go reach others that need Jesus!
It's changing my paradigm - - I've heard "reach the lost" all my life as I sit in my cushy country club church wondering why no one wants to show up to be saved. Hmmmmm - - maybe they are waiting on me to get off my comfy seat and find them.
Michael Phelps
11-04-2007, 10:03 AM
The past few weeks we're been hearing sermons on "The Vision of the Church" - - wow, after 50 years of church attendance, it's been rocking my tried and true, safe ideas of what I've been accustom to.
Church isn't for me. The church is for those not there today --- the lost, the WHY we are even in all this is to save the lost.
I'm saved and shouldn't be wasting time attending such to make sure I stay saved! I should be attending church to SERVE others that aren't saved - - meet them where they are, let them know that there's someone bigger than all their problems and live a life in front of them where they "get it"..... they desire what I have.
These people are then saved and they become the servers to go reach others that need Jesus!
It's changing my paradigm - - I've heard "reach the lost" all my life as I sit in my cushy country club church wondering why no one wants to show up to be saved. Hmmmmm - - maybe they are waiting on me to get off my comfy seat and find them.
Excellent point, Renda.
Did Jesus say "Go ye into all the world", or did He say "All the world - go ye into a church"?
Which organization did Jesus belong to, by the way?
Pastor Keith
11-04-2007, 10:07 AM
You know, the UPCI was never meant to be an "organization", it was meant to be a fellowship of like minded brethren. And some of them didn't even agree on the doctrinal points, but they still fellowshipped!!!!!!!
The "organization" was formed to provide funding for missionaries, provide fellowship for autonomous pastors and their congregations, and to be a think tank for evangelism efforts. Now, in many places, it's a governing body, telling the members what they can and cannot do.
I would certainly hate to be the pastor who pastors a church of 100 in a city of 100,000 and have to explain to God why he fought so hard to keep another Apostolic pastor from starting a church in "his" city.
I would certainly hate to be the pastor who has to stand before God and explain why he wouldn't let a God-called evangelist preach in the church he was pastoring who could have preached a message that would reach souls, all because he didn't like the color of the man's shirt.
I would certainly hate to be the District Official who voted "no" to let a man go into a city and start a church because the official had a friend who pastored nearby who was threatened by the prospective pastor's ministry.
I realize this may sound like I'm bashing the UPCI, and I'm not, because I was raised in it, and licensed with it for years.
All I'm saying, ladies and gentlemen, is that an organization is not going to reach the lost. Men and women are going to reach the lost. And if the organization begins to hinder that effort, then we should have the integrity and courage to walk away from the organization - plain and simple.
I'm not advocating the dissolution of the UPCI, nor am I advocating just walking away because every little vote doesn't go your way. But, if a man or woman truly believes that the organization is going against what God has called them to do, it's time to walk away from it.
Didn't Peter, himself, say "Who are we going to obey, men or God"?
As one the Yadon's would say, I think CH Yadon,
"They fellowshipped the differences"
rgcraig
11-04-2007, 10:11 AM
As one the Yadon's would say, I think CH Yadon,
"They fellowshipped the differences"
Love those Yadons!
As one the Yadon's would say, I think CH Yadon,
"They fellowshipped the differences"
I know y'all may think I'm silly, but this breaks my heart...dividing over television just makes no sense.
My brother is a UPCI pastor, and yesterday made this observation...
He said that some are 'afraid' that with the passing of Res 4, there will be a breakdown of everything else...advertise on TV and makeup and cut hair will prevail!!
But he reminded me that we have a brother who is a member of a church in IN and they are ALJC...the pastor is a part of this board, though he doesn't post much.
Jim said that the ALJC doesn't take a hard stand against TV, and then asked re the church our brother attends, "Have you ever seen anything in their church any different than in the UPCI?!" Nope, I haven't...
He then said that he recently did the media work (DVD and CD recording) for an ALJC function, and the hair and dress reminded him of the UPCI in the 70s and 80s.
Doesn't sound like television has caused them to be carnally minded...
Love those Yadons!
Me too, girl...
rgcraig
11-04-2007, 10:28 AM
I know y'all may think I'm silly, but this breaks my heart...dividing over television just makes no sense.
My brother is a UPCI pastor, and yesterday made this observation...
He said that some are 'afraid' that with the passing of Res 4, there will be a breakdown of everything else...advertise on TV and makeup and cut hair will prevail!!
But he reminded me that we have a brother who is a member of a church in IN and they are ALJC...the pastor is a part of this board, though he doesn't post much.
Jim said that the ALJC doesn't take a hard stand against TV, and then asked re the church our brother attends, "Have you ever seen anything in their church any different than in the UPCI?!" Nope, I haven't...
He then said that he recently did the media work (DVD and CD recording) for an ALJC function, and the hair and dress reminded him of the UPCI in the 70s and 80s.
Doesn't sound like television has caused them to be carnally minded...Barb, I believe that's what many have been trying to say here -- - this isn't over Res. 4. I believe it's been in the works for a while and there are other reasons for the divide.
Also, as long as those "other reasons" are around, what is taking place might be the best solution. There was division already there, just not a physical divide.
Barb, I believe that's what many have been trying to say here -- - this isn't over Res. 4. I believe it's been in the works for a while and there are other reasons for the divide.
Also, as long as those "other reasons" are around, what is taking place might be the best solution. There was division already there, just not a physical divide.
*sigh* Still breaks my heart...
rgcraig
11-04-2007, 10:37 AM
*sigh* Still breaks my heart...
Look at it this way "Divide and Conquer"!!
Michael Phelps
11-04-2007, 10:39 AM
I know y'all may think I'm silly, but this breaks my heart...dividing over television just makes no sense.
My brother is a UPCI pastor, and yesterday made this observation...
He said that some are 'afraid' that with the passing of Res 4, there will be a breakdown of everything else...advertise on TV and makeup and cut hair will prevail!!
But he reminded me that we have a brother who is a member of a church in IN and they are ALJC...the pastor is a part of this board, though he doesn't post much.
Jim said that the ALJC doesn't take a hard stand against TV, and then asked re the church our brother attends, "Have you ever seen anything in their church any different than in the UPCI?!" Nope, I haven't...
He then said that he recently did the media work (DVD and CD recording) for an ALJC function, and the hair and dress reminded him of the UPCI in the 70s and 80s.
Doesn't sound like television has caused them to be carnally minded...
This makes perfect sense.
However, this is a monster of our own making, Barb. How many times have you heard the statement "When you let down on ONE standard, the rest will automatically follow, along with the doctrine"?
We've pounded that into our people for so long that they're afraid to PROGRESS!
In many people's minds CHANGE = COMPROMISE = CHARISMATIC.
We've conditioned them for so long "not to move the old landmarks" that they can't differentiate between "Old landmarks" and "old roadblocks".
irish1
11-04-2007, 10:39 AM
I would certainly hate to be the pastor who pastors a church of 100 in a city of 100,000 and have to explain to God why he fought so hard to keep another Apostolic pastor from starting a church in "his" city.
I would certainly hate to be the pastor who has to stand before God and explain why he wouldn't let a God-called evangelist preach in the church he was pastoring who could have preached a message that would reach souls, all because he didn't like the color of the man's shirt.
I would certainly hate to be the District Official who voted "no" to let a man go into a city and start a church because the official had a friend who pastored nearby who was threatened by the prospective pastor's ministry.
I would hate to be those also, (so I have purposed to not do those things). Let me add one more to this list:
I would certainly hate to be the preacher who stands before God and had preached a compromised, watered-down message.
Not trying to fight, just adding another person I wouldn't want to be. Not insinuating you do this MP, I have never heard you preach, (loved the thought about the devil's voice raising and saying, "Leave me alone" you posted on here somewhere, though).
I'm not saying, I'm just saying, that's all.
Felicity
11-04-2007, 10:40 AM
In regard to Renda's post about the preaching she's hearing lately in her own church ........ (I've heard it for many years. lol. :)) ....
My DIL made an interesting comment the other day. We were sitting in the car talking about the changes taking place in their own lives. They're moving back home. My son is taking a full time ministry position in a church there so I was asking her how she felt about it.
She said that she wasn't all that excited about "ministry" as we think of it and as it's done in the church. She said that her dad was never a pastor, a preacher or a "minister" per se, but that he was a soul winner. That he'd always been a soul winner and a great personal witness and won a number of people to the Lord over the years.
She said that as far as she was concerned you could be a minister and a soul winner without having the "office" of pastor or youth pastor or preacher or whatever. She had a good point. :)
We get so caught up in all the machinery and politics of denominationalism and even "church" that we lose focus so many times on the main thing. Not saying that we don't need "organization" and pastors, preachers, and other kinds of ministers but I'm afraid that there's a great deal of frustration sometimes because what the focus should be gets lost in all the foolishness that goes on.
Michael Phelps
11-04-2007, 10:41 AM
I would hate to be those also, (so I have purposed to not do those things). Let me add one more to this list:
I would certainly hate to be the preacher who stands before God and had preached a compromised, watered-down message.
Not trying to fight, just adding another person I wouldn't want to be. Not insinuating you do this MP, I have never heard you preach, (loved the thought about the devil's voice raising and saying, "Leave me alone" you posted on here somewhere, though).
I'm not saying, I'm just saying, that's all.
Obviously, there is some connection in your mind that made you mention "compromise" on this thread. I'm assuming that you consider advertising on television "compromise" and the man who advertises on TV is preaching a watered down message?
Or did I make the wrong leap?
This makes perfect sense.
However, this is a monster of our own making, Barb. How many times have you heard the statement "When you let down on ONE standard, the rest will automatically follow, along with the doctrine"?
We've pounded that into our people for so long that they're afraid to PROGRESS!
In many people's minds CHANGE = COMPROMISE = CHARISMATIC.
We've conditioned them for so long "not to move the old landmarks" that they can't differentiate between "Old landmarks" and "old roadblocks".
Yes, I have heard it and once believed it...
In regard to Renda's post about the preaching she's hearing lately in her own church ........ (I've heard it for many years. lol. :)) ....
My DIL made an interesting comment the other day. We were sitting in the car talking about the changes taking place in their own lives. They're moving back home. My son is taking a full time ministry position in a church there so I was asking her how she felt about it.
She said that she wasn't all that excited about "ministry" as we think of it and as it's done in the church. She said that her dad was never a pastor, a preacher or a "minister" per se, but that he was a soul winner. That he'd always been a soul winner and a great personal witness and won a number of people to the Lord over the years.
She said that as far as she was concerned you could be a minister and a soul winner without having the "office" of pastor or youth pastor or preacher or whatever. She had a good point. :)
We get so caught up in all the machinery and politics of denominationalism and even "church" that we lose focus so many times on the main thing. Not saying that we don't need "organization" and pastors, preachers, and other kinds of ministers but I'm afraid that there's a great deal of frustration sometimes because what the focus should be gets lost in all the foolishness that goes on.
This is so true...how many times have I been focused on things and events around me, instead of focusing on glory?!
Some things to think about as I head on out to church today...:nod
Michael Phelps
11-04-2007, 11:09 AM
Yes, I have heard it and once believed it...
So did I, Barb.
When we were younger, and questioned things, in most cases, those things weren't explained, we were just given the old "Because it's against our religion, or the pastor says do it, so we do" speech.
But, because we never understood the principles behind the rules, we didn't know how to differentiate.
I'm reminded of Bro. Tenney's illustration of the Great Wall of China. It's the only man-made edifice that astronauts can see from the moon without the aid of a telescope. It's an impressive wall, over 2000 miles long, from what I can remember. Took hundreds of years to build. And it was built for one purpose - to keep invading armies out. But, within the first 100 years after it's completion, the Huns invaded China three times. Do you know how they did it? They didn't climb over it, or tunnel under it.
THEY BRIBED THE GATEKEEPERS!
The Chinese had spent so much time building a wall that they forgot to instruct the following generations as to why the wall was there! And when the reward got high enough, the gatekeepers sold out.
It's ok to build walls, but more important, we need to understand why the walls are there!
There may be a time when those walls can come down, and greater methods can be utilized.
Our problem is that we don't recognize which walls are for a season, and which ones are for eternity.
Pastor G
11-04-2007, 12:55 PM
So did I, Barb.
When we were younger, and questioned things, in most cases, those things weren't explained, we were just given the old "Because it's against our religion, or the pastor says do it, so we do" speech.
But, because we never understood the principles behind the rules, we didn't know how to differentiate.
I'm reminded of Bro. Tenney's illustration of the Great Wall of China. It's the only man-made edifice that astronauts can see from the moon without the aid of a telescope. It's an impressive wall, over 2000 miles long, from what I can remember. Took hundreds of years to build. And it was built for one purpose - to keep invading armies out. But, within the first 100 years after it's completion, the Huns invaded China three times. Do you know how they did it? They didn't climb over it, or tunnel under it.
THEY BRIBED THE GATEKEEPERS!
The Chinese had spent so much time building a wall that they forgot to instruct the following generations as to why the wall was there! And when the reward got high enough, the gatekeepers sold out.
It's ok to build walls, but more important, we need to understand why the walls are there!
There may be a time when those walls can come down, and greater methods can be utilized.
Our problem is that we don't recognize which walls are for a season, and which ones are for eternity.
Mike - why don't you just go on and preach a bit... Amen Bro. I am with you all the way..
Still looking for Brother Smith to tell me why the only way to heal the UPCI is for Res 4 to be reversed, resInded?
RKS, you out there?
bump
irish1
11-04-2007, 01:14 PM
Obviously, there is some connection in your mind that made you mention "compromise" on this thread. I'm assuming that you consider advertising on television "compromise" and the man who advertises on TV is preaching a watered down message?
Or did I make the wrong leap?
Jumped in the wrong end, Bro., I'm just adding to the list you mentioned.
Michael Phelps
11-04-2007, 01:23 PM
Mike - why don't you just go on and preach a bit... Amen Bro. I am with you all the way..
I'm feelin' it today Bro!
Michael Phelps
11-04-2007, 01:24 PM
Jumped in the wrong end, Bro., I'm just adding to the list you mentioned.
Gotcha! Thanks for clarifying, and I agree with you!
Still looking for Brother Smith to tell me why the only way to heal the UPCI is for Res 4 to be reversed, resInded?
RKS, you out there?
Haven't you figured out by now that his game plan is just to show up very few pages and pretend he is some sort of wise sage by repeating that the UPC "Needs A healer".
Apparently he can't articulate a response to questions like yours that require something more than parroting an unsubstantiated mantra.
Praxeas
11-04-2007, 01:54 PM
And so now....
1567 hits later.....
558 responses.....
58 pages....
And....
The UPCI is still in need of healing.....
God Bless all you folks today.....
Rkentsmith...has anyone ever told you that you are a really really REALLY boring person? :neener
Praxeas
11-04-2007, 01:56 PM
You know, the UPCI was never meant to be an "organization", it was meant to be a fellowship of like minded brethren. And some of them didn't even agree on the doctrinal points, but they still fellowshipped!!!!!!!
The "organization" was formed to provide funding for missionaries, provide fellowship for autonomous pastors and their congregations, and to be a think tank for evangelism efforts. Now, in many places, it's a governing body, telling the members what they can and cannot do.
I would certainly hate to be the pastor who pastors a church of 100 in a city of 100,000 and have to explain to God why he fought so hard to keep another Apostolic pastor from starting a church in "his" city.
I would certainly hate to be the pastor who has to stand before God and explain why he wouldn't let a God-called evangelist preach in the church he was pastoring who could have preached a message that would reach souls, all because he didn't like the color of the man's shirt.
I would certainly hate to be the District Official who voted "no" to let a man go into a city and start a church because the official had a friend who pastored nearby who was threatened by the prospective pastor's ministry.
I realize this may sound like I'm bashing the UPCI, and I'm not, because I was raised in it, and licensed with it for years.
All I'm saying, ladies and gentlemen, is that an organization is not going to reach the lost. Men and women are going to reach the lost. And if the organization begins to hinder that effort, then we should have the integrity and courage to walk away from the organization - plain and simple.
I'm not advocating the dissolution of the UPCI, nor am I advocating just walking away because every little vote doesn't go your way. But, if a man or woman truly believes that the organization is going against what God has called them to do, it's time to walk away from it.
Didn't Peter, himself, say "Who are we going to obey, men or God"?
Exactly! I have been saying that over and over here
Rkentsmith...has anyone ever told you that you are a really really REALLY boring person? :neener
Shhh!!!! Leave him in his own little world. I think he thinks he is being profound.
AmazingGrace
11-04-2007, 01:58 PM
Shhh!!!! Leave him in his own little world. I think he thinks he is being profound.
:ursofunny
And so now....
7,942 views .....
599 responses.....
60 pages....
And....
rkentsmith still hasn’t answered the question.....
God Bless all you folks today.....
Whole Hearted
11-04-2007, 02:03 PM
God bless my freind rkentsmith,
Praxeas
11-04-2007, 02:04 PM
Shhh!!!! Leave him in his own little world. I think he thinks he is being profound.
lol...well you have to wonder when he just keeps repeating himself and not actually engage anyone in a dialog over it :highfive
God bless my freind rkentsmith,
finally you say something I can agree with!
Felicity
11-04-2007, 02:54 PM
Rkentsmith...has anyone ever told you that you are a really really REALLY boring person? :neenerThat's pretty unkind, don't you think Prax?
Besides which, I doubt it's true.
That's pretty unkind, don't you think Prax?
Besides which, I doubt it's true.
It isn't true.
RKS has a dynamic church which he pioneered, and a powerful ministry.
It isn't true.
RKS has a dynamic church which he pioneered, and a powerful ministry.
He must be saving all that dynamicness for the church! (J/K)
Praxeas
11-04-2007, 05:21 PM
It isn't true.
RKS has a dynamic church which he pioneered, and a powerful ministry.
lol...that doesn't make him NOT a bore...read this thread
Felicity
11-04-2007, 05:24 PM
lol...that doesn't make him NOT a bore...read this threadThis thread wouldn't be here if it weren't for RKS.
Besides, don't you know that repetition is the most effective way to get a message across.
Goodness Prax! It's no big deal - really it isn't.
Praxeas
11-04-2007, 05:37 PM
This thread wouldn't be here if it weren't for RKS.
lol....and?
Besides, don't you know that repetition is the most effective way to get a message across.
Goodness Prax! It's no big deal - really it isn't.
saying over and over "the UPC still needs a healer" is not getting a message across. He is avoiding making his point over and over that the ONLY healing that can happen is if the UPC reverses the TV vote to cater to the ones that want to leave.
Yes, so far it's boring to just repeat those words over and over and avoid the questions and points others seem to be making. And you are right, it's really not that big a deal, so why respond to me? He's a bore :-)
rgcraig
11-04-2007, 06:02 PM
And so now....
7,942 views .....
599 responses.....
60 pages....
And....
rkentsmith still hasn’t answered the question.....
God Bless all you folks today.....
Good one Fernando!
Felicity
11-04-2007, 06:09 PM
lol....and? No "and". Just making the point.
saying over and over "the UPC still needs a healer" is not getting a message across. He is avoiding making his point over and over that the ONLY healing that can happen is if the UPC reverses the TV vote to cater to the ones that want to leave.
Yes, so far it's boring to just repeat those words over and over and avoid the questions and points others seem to be making. And you are right, it's really not that big a deal, so why respond to me? He's a bore :-)Bet if it was someone making a point that you liked you wouldn't find it so boring. Hehe. :)
dizzyde
11-04-2007, 06:11 PM
And so now....
7,942 views .....
599 responses.....
60 pages....
And....
rkentsmith still hasn’t answered the question.....
God Bless all you folks today.....
Amen and Amen!!!
rgcraig
11-04-2007, 06:13 PM
No "and". Just making the point.
Bet if it was someone making a point that you liked you wouldn't find it so boring. Hehe. :)
Not sure he has a point. There's been some excellent comments and all he comes back with is the same thing.
You do realize that you just assumed that Prax doesn't like this man.
dizzyde
11-04-2007, 06:16 PM
I keep reading this thread, and something just doesn't seem right.
All these posts over a man-made organization needing a healer, but I read very little about the world needing a savior.
Folks, whether the UPCI exists as it did 40 years ago, or any variation thereof, or even if it stops to exist, the world still needs a savior! And, in my opinion, if what happens in the UPCI affects our evangelism efforts, our focus is on the wrong thing, and WE need a healer.
Sorry, I'm in the preaching mode here, so I'll just keep going.
This is a perfect example of how inbred we've become over the years. We dress to make our peers happy. We preach messages that keep the saints satisfied. We sing songs that our members like. We don't let people on the platform that might offend the tithe-paying saints. We won't evangelize certain areas of our cities, because it might offend the pastor across town. We don't bring certain preachers in because we're afraid that we might be called before the board.
Folks, does any of this seem a bit askew to you?
I lived it for years! I know what it's like to preach to the same group of people week after week, and it becoming increasingly harder to keep them happy. I know what it's like to suffer persecution because I preached something that made someone uncomfortable.
And, here we are, saying that the "organization" needs a healer!!!!!!
WHAT ABOUT THE LOST? WHAT ABOUT THE WORLD?
In my humble opinion, we've shortchanged the world many times in order to keep the organization happy.
Maybe it's time that we put our focus where it belongs?
Wow, this is what is in my spirit! I can't stand to think of the years that have been wasted, fussing and fighting over stuff like this, when the lost are all around us, begging for a healer!
rgcraig
11-04-2007, 06:17 PM
Wow, this is what is in my spirit! I can't stand to think of the years that have been wasted, fussing and fighting over stuff like this, when the lost are all around us, begging for a healer!
Amen!
BrotherEastman
11-04-2007, 06:17 PM
Not sure he has a point. There's been some excellent comments and all he comes back with is the same thing.
You do realize that you just assumed that Prax doesn't like this man.
I know this has absolutely nothing to do with thread, but I wanted to tell you what a great looking family you have there.
Felicity
11-04-2007, 06:18 PM
Not sure he has a point. There's been some excellent comments and all he comes back with is the same thing.
You do realize that you just assumed that Prax doesn't like this man.I meant "I - myself - me" was making the point.
I don't know what prax does or doesn't like. But to call an elder - a pastor - names is unnecessary imo.
Felicity
11-04-2007, 06:21 PM
Wow, this is what is in my spirit! I can't stand to think of the years that have been wasted, fussing and fighting over stuff like this, when the lost are all around us, begging for a healer!As long as you have people, you'll have issues that have to be decided and resolved. Sometimes it takes time to come to conclusions. This is the way it's always been and always will be.
In the meantime while men go about dealing with their issues and coming to conclusions, the world does have a Healer. His name is Jesus and the very men who are grappling with change and issue are presenting Him to the world.
Thank God for preachers!
rgcraig
11-04-2007, 06:21 PM
I know this has absolutely nothing to do with thread, but I wanted to tell you what a great looking family you have there.
Thanks Bro E. That was taken after the rehearsal dinner a few weeks ago. I saw the picture today and realized that I'm very blessed, so why not use it for my avatar!
rgcraig
11-04-2007, 06:25 PM
I meant "I - myself - me" was making the point.
I don't know what prax does or doesn't like. But to call an elder - a pastor - names is unnecessary imo.
Huh? I thought you meant if Prax liked the person making the point he wouldn't find it boring - - what did that have to do with "I - myself - me"?
Oh, nevermind I see where you confussed it. You were making a point, but I was referring to what you were saying about Prax not liking the person making the point.
No "and". Just making the point.
Bet if it was someone making a point that you liked you wouldn't find it so boring. Hehe. :)
Felicity
11-04-2007, 06:30 PM
Not sure he has a point.Sure he does. You didn't get it yet? LOL. This is why he has to keep repeating I guess. LOL. :)
rgcraig
11-04-2007, 06:37 PM
Sure he does. You didn't get it yet? LOL. This is why he has to keep repeating I guess. LOL. :)
We've all got his point and asked him about it and he won't respond.:chat
Felicity
11-04-2007, 06:46 PM
We've all got his point and asked him about it and he won't respond.:chatI asked once and he did. :thumbsup
Sure he does. You didn't get it yet? LOL. This is why he has to keep repeating I guess. LOL. :)
Yeah we get it. He is the religous equivilent of the guy at the local corner bar crying into his beer.
Michael Phelps
11-05-2007, 04:38 AM
I meant "I - myself - me" was making the point.
I don't know what prax does or doesn't like. But to call an elder - a pastor - names is unnecessary imo.
Prax didn't call RKS a name. He referred to a behavior pattern that he had observed.
Michael Phelps
11-05-2007, 04:39 AM
I asked once and he did. :thumbsup
Can you copy the post where he responded?
Remember - the question that we are all asking is, "How do you think the UPCI can be healed, outside of KH rescinding the conference decision"
rgcraig
11-05-2007, 03:14 PM
Wow, so did this thread run out of steam?
Mr. Steinway
11-05-2007, 03:16 PM
Wow, so did this thread run out of steam?
:chirp
Felicity
11-05-2007, 03:17 PM
Prax didn't call RKS a name. He referred to a behavior pattern that he had observed. He did.
He's a bore :-)
Felicity
11-05-2007, 03:18 PM
Can you copy the post where he responded?
Remember - the question that we are all asking is, "How do you think the UPCI can be healed, outside of KH rescinding the conference decision"Oh. That isn't the question I asked.
Michael Phelps
11-05-2007, 04:59 PM
Oh. That isn't the question I asked.
Therein lies the problem.
That's the question we've been asking for hundreds of posts.
Which question did you ask?
Michael Phelps
11-05-2007, 05:05 PM
He did.
bore2 –verb (used with object)
1. to weary by dullness, tedious repetition, unwelcome attentions, etc.: The long speech bored me.
–noun 2. a dull, tiresome, or uncongenial person.
Refers to characteristics........
bore2 –verb (used with object)
1. to weary by dullness, tedious repetition, unwelcome attentions, etc.: The long speech bored me.
–noun 2. a dull, tiresome, or uncongenial person.
Refers to characteristics........
Perhaps, but Michael my friend, if you called me a bore, I might take offense.
rgcraig
11-05-2007, 05:10 PM
Perhaps, but Michael my friend, if you called me a bore, I might take offense.
We could just go with tedious repetition and be done with it then.
Michael Phelps
11-05-2007, 05:12 PM
Perhaps, but Michael my friend, if you called me a bore, I might take offense.
Well, it's a good thing I didn't call you that then, lol!
If I read Prax's post correctly, I believe he's referring to RKS's continual hounding about the number of posts, etc. and the UPCI STILL needs a healer.
I'm sure that on other topics, RKS is anything BUT a bore, but on this one, I'd have to agree with Prax.
I believe that calling someone a bore is much different than calling them an idiot, moron, jerk, stupid, etc.
But, then again, that's just my opinion.
We could just go with tedious repetition and be done with it then.
Well, it's a good thing I didn't call you that then, lol!
If I read Prax's post correctly, I believe he's referring to RKS's continual hounding about the number of posts, etc. and the UPCI STILL needs a healer.
I'm sure that on other topics, RKS is anything BUT a bore, but on this one, I'd have to agree with Prax.
I believe that calling someone a bore is much different than calling them an idiot, moron, jerk, stupid, etc.
But, then again, that's just my opinion.
LOL!!
Michael Phelps
11-05-2007, 05:19 PM
LOL!!
Just to set the record straight, I have NOTHING against RKS. I knew him way back in the day, and we've heard personal testimony that he's built a strong, dynamic church. Of this, I have NO doubt.
It's just on this one issue that most of us are weary with the continual refusal to discuss the issue, but continually pound on the fact that the "UPCI needs a Healer".
In my opinion, what RKS is saying is, "The UPCI needs KH to rescind the decision", and that's the only thing that he will consider "healing".
I'd just love to discuss other options with him, but he refuses.
Hence, the "tedious repetition".
Just to set the record straight, I have NOTHING against RKS. I knew him way back in the day, and we've heard personal testimony that he's built a strong, dynamic church. Of this, I have NO doubt.
It's just on this one issue that most of us are weary with the continual refusal to discuss the issue, but continually pound on the fact that the "UPCI needs a Healer".
In my opinion, what RKS is saying is, "The UPCI needs KH to rescind the decision", and that's the only thing that he will consider "healing".
I'd just love to discuss other options with him, but he refuses.
Hence, the "tedious repetition".
Hon, you know you're fine with me...no need to explain.
Felicity
11-05-2007, 05:27 PM
Nahhh.
Michael if you finished preaching a message and some dear saintly man came along and said to you...............
"Pastor Michael, hate to break it to you, but you're a total unmitigating bore!"
......... you might consider it a tad offensive. ;)
"Bore" is a noun or can be an adjective too just like many other words. Like "stupid" (as another example).
If someone said to you, "Hey Stupid! Cut that out!" You might be a little ticked too, no doubt.
I rest my case.
Mr. Steinway
11-05-2007, 05:33 PM
Nahhh.
Michael if you finished preaching a message and some dear saintly man came along and said to you...............
"Pastor Michael, hate to break it to you, but you're a total unmitigating bore!"
......... you might consider it a tad offensive. ;)
"Bore" is a noun or can be an adjective too just like many other words. Like "stupid" (as another example).
If someone said to you, "Hey Stupid! Cut that out!" You might be a little ticked too, no doubt.
I rest my case.
Then again, If Pastor Michael repeated the same line 200 times during his sermon, he would understand what the person was saying! :)
Praxeas
11-05-2007, 05:59 PM
Perhaps, but Michael my friend, if you called me a bore, I might take offense.
You may not take offense until he punts
Praxeas
11-05-2007, 06:01 PM
Nahhh.
Michael if you finished preaching a message and some dear saintly man came along and said to you...............
"Pastor Michael, hate to break it to you, but you're a total unmitigating bore!"
......... you might consider it a tad offensive. ;)
"Bore" is a noun or can be an adjective too just like many other words. Like "stupid" (as another example).
If someone said to you, "Hey Stupid! Cut that out!" You might be a little ticked too, no doubt.
I rest my case.
He didn't preach a message. He said "blah blah blah, the UPC still needs a healer" :dogkiss
Felicity
11-05-2007, 06:34 PM
Then again, If Pastor Michael repeated the same line 200 times during his sermon, he would understand what the person was saying! :)LOL! :highfive
Michael Phelps
11-05-2007, 08:04 PM
Then again, If Pastor Michael repeated the same line 200 times during his sermon, he would understand what the person was saying! :)
BINGO!
Nahum
11-05-2007, 08:24 PM
I wonder how many of the 650 posts on this thread are from Kent Smith saying, "the UPC needs a healer?"
revrandy
11-05-2007, 08:25 PM
I wonder how many of the 650 posts on this thread are from Kent Smith saying, "the UPC needs a healer?"
Maybe he needs a Job something to help him with all his "free" time...
HEHEHEHE...:D
RevDWW
11-05-2007, 08:33 PM
I thought the UPCI had "The Healer".........
I wonder how many of the 650 posts on this thread are from Kent Smith saying, "the UPC needs a healer?"
Maybe he might just want to name him? Problem is he better hurry up before whoever leaves!
Sheltiedad
11-05-2007, 09:41 PM
I invited my good friend Don Quixote to the forum... but he is having issues getting his account validated. He is skilled at fighting imaginary dragons, so I believe he is just the kind of healer needed here.
Truly Blessed
11-06-2007, 12:45 AM
Personally I believe it's AFF that needs the Healer! The UPCI will continue with or without any one of us. I predict it will outlive AFF! :)
rkentsmith
11-06-2007, 06:26 AM
And so....
8875 views...
650 post...
68 pages.....
And the typical liberal response is to make the messenger the issue....
Endeavor to beat up the poster....
Since there is truth in the message...
Folks.....
The UPCI needs a healer.....
Some on AFF could use one as well....
God Bless
And so now....
8,875 views .....
650 responses.....
66 pages....
And....
rkentsmith still hasn’t answered the question.....
God Bless all you folks today.....
And so....
8875 views...
650 post...
68 pages.....
And the typical liberal response is to make the messenger the issue....
Endeavor to beat up the poster....
Since there is truth in the message...
Folks.....
The UPCI needs a healer.....
Some on AFF could use one as well....
God Bless
RKS, in all honesty. I am not looking for a fight. I just want one simply answer.
Why is it that the only way healing can come to the UPCI is if Res 4 is resInded?
Steve Epley
11-06-2007, 07:46 AM
Personally I believe it's AFF that needs the Healer! The UPCI will continue with or without any one of us. I predict it will outlive AFF! :)
I am NOT UPC nor have ever been but I prophecy this prophecy will be fulfilled.:highfive
rgcraig
11-06-2007, 07:49 AM
Can you copy the post where he responded?
Remember - the question that we are all asking is, "How do you think the UPCI can be healed, outside of KH rescinding the conference decision"
RKS, in all honesty. I am not looking for a fight. I just want one simply answer.
Why is it that the only way healing can come to the UPCI is if Res 4 is resInded?
RKS
Just in case in your fly by posting you missed the question.
By the way, I also believe the UPCI needs a healer.
Darryl
11-06-2007, 08:57 AM
8800+ views is really not that impressive when you realize that it is being viewed by the same 20-30 people over and over and over and over again.
COOPER
11-06-2007, 09:00 AM
The United Pentecostal Church Needs a Healer
RKS
The UPCI needs Jesus to build a new ship.
TRIPLE E
11-06-2007, 09:08 AM
The UPCI needs Jesus to build a new ship.
In Solomon's temple all the furniture was new ,the only piece of furniture to remain the same was the ark of the covenant which was symbolic of the presence of God.
Some things change over time but the Message of salvation,Jesus,the Blood will remain the same!
Yes we need Jesus to build the ship or house if not everything else is in vain!
BrotherEastman
11-06-2007, 09:54 AM
8800+ views is really not that impressive when you realize that it is being viewed by the same 20-30 people over and over and over and over again.
Wisdom from one of our newest members. LOL!
OneAccord
11-06-2007, 10:45 AM
I'm not UPC and have refrained from posting on this thread for that reason. But, and with respect to the thread starter (Bro. RKent Smith, I believe), the very title to this thread shows the real problem. Yes, the UPC needs a healer. But, see, the problem doesn't begin and end with the UPC. The problem trancends denominational (or, if you perfer, organizational) barriers. And THAT is the problem. The barriers. The walls that are build between us. And there are many: The New Birth, women preachers, the 2nd coming, Baptism, the Godhead, and on and on. Oneness Pentecostalism goes far beyond the UPC. There are umpteen Oneness organizations and... independent churches? Well, they are countless. The real need for a healer is that we are a divided church. Thats our problem. We live with the mistaken notion that, in order for us to be a truly united Pentecostal church, we all have to dress, walk, talk and live the exact same way. Thats not true. Never has been true, never will be true. As long as we walk around in separate bodies, we will have separate personalities... and, subsequently, separate ideas. The truth is, even within the confines of a particular organization there will always be differing viewponts. To believe two people who affilate themselves with a particular group will automatically believe everything exactly the same is a fantasy. We won't all ever believe everything the same. Who ever said we have to? Sure, we can only walk together if we agree, but on EVERY point of doctrine? On every issue? I think not. If that is the case, then we'll all be walking alone.
So, yes, we need a healer. But where is the healer going to come from? From within the group? No, not according to biblical precedence. Whenever God sent a healer (a prophet, etc) in the Bible, he came from outside the camp. Elijah the Tishbite (which means "a stranger") was a stranger to the house of Ahab. John the Baptist came from the wilderness. Jesus Himself, a Nazerene, was a stranger to Jerusalem. When the NT needed a word from God, who brought that message? It was Paul, a recently converted former persecutor of the church. An outsider.
All the resolutions and recisions of resolutions will do nothing to effect healing... healing will only come from the Sun of Righteousness. When the battles end.. when the dust clears.. then, and only then, will the Lord be able to bring healing. Until we recognize the battle isn't a UPC battle, and that it is our battle we will never be healed. Our enemy? .. not resolutions and affirmations. Not TVs and liberlism. Our battle is our division. Our divided spirits. Our divided house. Healing can come only when we follow the words of the prophet:
2Ch 7:14 If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.
That, and that alone, will bring healing to the Body of Christ.
COOPER
11-06-2007, 10:45 AM
In Solomon's temple all the furniture was new ,the only piece of furniture to remain the same was the ark of the covenant which was symbolic of the presence of God.
Some things change over time but the Message of salvation,Jesus,the Blood will remain the same!Yes we need Jesus to build the ship or house if not everything else is in vain!
:thumbsup
Don Quixote
11-06-2007, 11:17 AM
BEHOLD! I am your healer! Where is this vile television dragon which needs to be slayed? Does it breathe fire?
rgcraig
11-06-2007, 11:18 AM
BEHOLD! I am your healer! Where is this vile television dragon which needs to be slayed? Does it breathe fire?
Welcome DonQ!
Praxeas
11-06-2007, 11:32 AM
And so....
8875 views...
650 post...
68 pages.....
And the typical liberal response is to make the messenger the issue....
Endeavor to beat up the poster....
Since there is truth in the message...
Folks.....
The UPCI needs a healer.....
Some on AFF could use one as well....
God Bless
Most of the responses you attribute to being liberal are not liberals. They were responding to the inability or unwillingness of the messenger to do more than just repeat the same thing over and over and not answer the questions or dialog with them. You are sounding like a broken record. You made an assertion as to what healing was but you don't dialog with others over it.
Praxeas
11-06-2007, 11:35 AM
8800+ views is really not that impressive when you realize that it is being viewed by the same 20-30 people over and over and over and over again.
Yes lol , just curious to see if the drama continues of RK repeating the same thing over and over and not actually answering the question
rgcraig
11-06-2007, 11:36 AM
Yes lol , just curious to see if the drama continues of RK repeating the same thing over and over and not actually answering the question
Apparently, he doesn't have an answer and that's why he continues to just say it over and over.
Straightline
11-06-2007, 11:50 AM
BEHOLD! I am your healer! Where is this vile television dragon which needs to be slayed? Does it breathe fire?
The Don-Qui has arrived to heal all wounds, bind up all splinters!:highfive
The blind cannot continue in a
Straightline
Straightline
11-06-2007, 11:54 AM
And so....
8875 views...
650 post...
68 pages.....
It's all about numbers, isn't it??????
:nod:nod:nod:nod
Circular thinking cannot follow a
Straightline
dizzyde
11-06-2007, 11:54 AM
BEHOLD! I am your healer! Where is this vile television dragon which needs to be slayed? Does it breathe fire?
ROFL!!!! :toofunny :toofunny :toofunny :toofunny
Don Quixote
11-06-2007, 11:56 AM
The Don-Qui has arrived to heal all wounds, bind up all splinters!:highfive
The blind cannot continue in a
Straightline
Are you referring to my mighty and valiant steed? :D
BrotherEastman
11-06-2007, 03:40 PM
This thread almost made it to the second page, I just couldn't allow that to happen. LOL!
rgcraig
11-06-2007, 03:55 PM
This thread almost made it to the second page, I just couldn't allow that to happen. LOL!
Lord no, not without an answer from RKS! :yourock
Don Quixote
11-06-2007, 04:05 PM
Some people made fun of my dragon too, they said it wasn't real... but I fought it to the death!
meBNme
11-06-2007, 04:21 PM
What in the wide world of cornflakes are y'all talking about??
What is resolution 4?
What does the UPCI need "healing" over?
Why are y'all so worked up?
Yes lol , just curious to see if the drama continues of RK repeating the same thing over and over and not actually answering the question
Yes lol , just curious to see if the drama continues of RK repeating the same thing over and over and not actually answering the question
Resolution 4 gives the local pastor the authority to reach his community by any means he sees fit.
What in the wide world of cornflakes are y'all talking about??
What is resolution 4?
What does the UPCI need "healing" over?
Why are y'all so worked up?
Timmy
11-06-2007, 04:29 PM
What in the wide world of cornflakes are y'all talking about??
What is resolution 4?
What does the UPCI need "healing" over?
Why are y'all so worked up?
In a nutshell, the UPCI passed, by a narrow margin, a resolution that allowed anyone to do anything they wanted. .... No, wait, that wasn't it.....
Oh yeah, it required everyone to own and watch a TV for 10 hours a day.
Or was it for women to shave their heads, and men to wear dresses? I forget now, sorry.
RandyWayne
11-06-2007, 04:32 PM
I thought it was about requiring all men to wear black eye shadow and wear upside down crucifixes.
Sorry Rkentsmith a bandaide will not fix the San Andreas Fault:
No pun on the word fault:
http://i161.photobucket.com/albums/t201/Neckstadt/SanAndreasfault.jpg
meBNme
11-06-2007, 04:54 PM
Newsflash!!!
They were doing that anyways.
For years UPC churches have been ranging the spectrum from very high standards to almost no standards.
So whats different?
Joseph Miller
11-06-2007, 06:23 PM
Newsflash!!!
They were doing that anyways.
For years UPC churches have been ranging the spectrum from very high standards to almost no standards.
So whats different?
The UPCI voted this year at their General Conference in Tampa, FL to allow their churches to run tv ads and to have programs. It passed by a small margin and the group that "lost" the vote have been screaming loud about their defeat.
meBNme
11-06-2007, 06:50 PM
Ahh.. thanks for clarifying.
BTW, not ALL of those who voted against it are "screaming about their defeat"
I guarantee you my pastor wouldn't vote for that. Raleigh NC has had a strong stance against TV for years. It has been mentioned over the pulpit that some among the UPC were moving away from their beliefs on standards, and that TV/Internet/etc. was becoming more of a problem.
But no complaining over the results of any such vote. We have long known than many UPC churches are much more liberal on their standards than we are. But we not only know WHAT our standards are, but WHY they are. So the way we see it, is that the world, and even other churches can do whatever they please. WE will stand for what we believe and pray for those who compromise.
For those who don't like the word "compromise" it is what it is. We don't tell all the other churches what they have to do, but we will stand on our beliefs.
When one goes back on their beliefs, giving in to the pressure, that is compromise. Others may do it, and call it whatever politically correct name they like. But we won't.
Timmy
11-06-2007, 07:05 PM
Ahh.. thanks for clarifying.
BTW, not ALL of those who voted against it are "screaming about their defeat"
I guarantee you my pastor wouldn't vote for that. Raleigh NC has had a strong stance against TV for years. It has been mentioned over the pulpit that some among the UPC were moving away from their beliefs on standards, and that TV/Internet/etc. was becoming more of a problem.
But no complaining over the results of any such vote. We have long known than many UPC churches are much more liberal on their standards than we are. But we not only know WHAT our standards are, but WHY they are. So the way we see it, is that the world, and even other churches can do whatever they please. WE will stand for what we believe and pray for those who compromise.
For those who don't like the word "compromise" it is what it is. We don't tell all the other churches what they have to do, but we will stand on our beliefs.
When one goes back on their beliefs, giving in to the pressure, that is compromise. Others may do it, and call it whatever politically correct name they like. But we won't.
Finally! Someone who can answer the simple question: why is TV forbidden, but the internet not?
Pastor G
11-06-2007, 07:14 PM
Ahh.. thanks for clarifying.
BTW, not ALL of those who voted against it are "screaming about their defeat"
I guarantee you my pastor wouldn't vote for that. Raleigh NC has had a strong stance against TV for years. It has been mentioned over the pulpit that some among the UPC were moving away from their beliefs on standards, and that TV/Internet/etc. was becoming more of a problem.
But no complaining over the results of any such vote. We have long known than many UPC churches are much more liberal on their standards than we are. But we not only know WHAT our standards are, but WHY they are. So the way we see it, is that the world, and even other churches can do whatever they please. WE will stand for what we believe and pray for those who compromise.
For those who don't like the word "compromise" it is what it is. We don't tell all the other churches what they have to do, but we will stand on our beliefs.
When one goes back on their beliefs, giving in to the pressure, that is compromise. Others may do it, and call it whatever politically correct name they like. But we won't.
You pray for those who compromise what you believe or what they believe?
Joseph Miller
11-06-2007, 07:33 PM
Finally! Someone who can answer the simple question: why is TV forbidden, but the internet not?
I still haven't seen this question answered yet.
Timmy
11-06-2007, 07:33 PM
You pray for those who compromise what you believe or what they believe?
MeBNme already defined compromise: "When one goes back on their beliefs, giving in to the pressure, that is compromise." So, if "they" believe TV is OK, they would be compromisers if they joined up with the anti-TV crowd.
So, meBNme, did you once believe that TV was OK? If so, then I guess you are a compromiser. If not, have you ever changed anything you believe?
Know any Trinitarians that converted to Oneness? Compromisers!
Timmy
11-06-2007, 07:35 PM
I still haven't seen this question answered yet.
I know, isn't it exciting? Can't wait to read it from someone who knows why!
Joseph Miller
11-06-2007, 07:35 PM
Ahh.. thanks for clarifying.
BTW, not ALL of those who voted against it are "screaming about their defeat"
Let me say this then, ALL those who voted against it that are on AFF are "screaming" about being defeated.
Joseph Miller
11-06-2007, 07:41 PM
I know, isn't it exciting? Can't wait to read it from someone who knows why!
I know what it the answer is. You can choose what you look at on the internet and you are forced to watch immoral, unclean, ungodly stuff on tv?
:runhills
meBNme
11-06-2007, 07:41 PM
Finally! Someone who can answer the simple question: why is TV forbidden, but the Internet not?
The TV decision was made years ago, long before Al Gore invented the Internet.........:slaphappy
The TV was also not necessary for work, school etc.
Later, along came the WWW. It became apparent that the Internet was not merely entertainment, but the new form of communication, and a necessity for many jobs, and education. In fact, some people have their entire living relying on the web.
Not to mention the fact that with the flood of technology, phones, laptops, Internet, etc etc, You cant just ban all forms of information, and communication. It became apparent that it is up to the individual to police his actions, because we are flooded with opportunities for bringing ungodly things into out homes/lives.
Many churches have adapted by teaching holiness from a love and dedication stand point, instead of just banning one form or another.
Pastors have come to realize that people are going to do what they want, and you can no longer use the same methods as before to help people keep sin out of their lives. So they teach what the bible says about sin, murders, adultery etc, and what the bible says about those who put it before their eyes, and "take pleasure in them that do" those sins.
That's why many pastors have stayed with the stand against TV, but realized the same restrictions simply cannot apply to the Internet.
meBNme
11-06-2007, 07:49 PM
I still haven't seen this question answered yet.
Hold on to yer horses! This aint a chat room Fred, it takes a few min to get responses on a forum you know?
whipe yer mouth man, yer foamin again.:wacko
Joseph Miller
11-06-2007, 07:53 PM
Hold on to yer horses! This aint a chat room Fred, it takes a few min to get responses on a forum you know?
whipe yer mouth man, yer foamin again.:wacko
Sis that statement was not pointed at you. We have been waiting on an answer to that question for a LONG time. If you have the answer you will be the AFF hero.
meBNme
11-06-2007, 07:55 PM
You pray for those who compromise what you believe or what they believe?
Now how on earth can someone compromise what I believe?
One can only compromise their own beliefs.
But then, I think you knew what I meant.
:stirpot
Have I inadvertently stepped into a pool of piranhas ready to go into a feeding frenzy when someone says something they disagree with?
meBNme
11-06-2007, 07:59 PM
It was a moderator approval issue.
Joseph Miller
11-06-2007, 08:00 PM
Now how on earth can someone compromise what I believe?
One can only compromise their own beliefs.
But then, I think you knew what I meant.
:stirpot
Have I inadvertently stepped into a pool of piranhas ready to go into a feeding frenzy when someone says something they disagree with?
No, all of us are not that way.
We all do like to have fun and pick some things apart in a friendly manner, most mean no disrespect.
Joseph Miller
11-06-2007, 08:01 PM
OK, so what happened to my post?
I just went into a long post expaining my beliefs on the TV and internet issue, I even verified it was posted, and now it is gone.
It was right before my post saying "hold onto yer horses"
Why was it erased? Is that how things are done here?
It is at the top of the page sis
rgcraig
11-06-2007, 08:04 PM
The TV decision was made years ago, long before Al Gore invented the Internet.........:slaphappy
The TV was also not necessary for work, school etc.
Later, along came the WWW. It became apparent that the Internet was not merely entertainment, but the new form of communication, and a necessity for many jobs, and education. In fact, some people have their entire living relying on the web.
Not to mention the fact that with the flood of technology, phones, laptops, Internet, etc etc, You cant just ban all forms of information, and communication. It became apparent that it is up to the individual to police his actions, because we are flooded with opportunities for bringing ungodly things into out homes/lives.
Many churches have adapted by teaching holiness from a love and dedication stand point, instead of just banning one form or another.
Pastors have come to realize that people are going to do what they want, and you can no longer use the same methods as before to help people keep sin out of their lives. So they teach what the bible says about sin, murders, adultery etc, and what the bible says about those who put it before their eyes, and "take pleasure in them that do" those sins.
That's why many pastors have stayed with the stand against TV, but realized the same restrictions simply cannot apply to the Internet.
:donuts
meBNme
11-06-2007, 08:07 PM
It is at the top of the page sis
I found out the problem.
I kept hitting the back button, and up popped a note saying the post had to be approved by a moderator first.
What in the world????
Oh, and by the way.
I ain't no "SIS" George. The only feminine side I have is my wife.
what in the wide world of cornflakes gave you THAT impression?
Joseph Miller
11-06-2007, 08:14 PM
I found out the problem.
I kept hitting the back button, and up popped a not saying the post had to be approved by a moderator first.
What in the world????
Oh, and by the way.
I ain't no "SIS" George. The only feminine side I have is my wife.
what in the wide world of cornflakes gave you THAT impression?
I don't know, sorry.
meBNme
11-06-2007, 08:17 PM
I don't know, sorry.
Oh well... its all good.
None of us are perfect.
exept Hitlary Clinton.......
Joseph Miller
11-06-2007, 08:18 PM
Oh well... its all good.
None of us are perfect.
exept Hitlary Clinton.......
:pirate:pirate:pirate
:drama
:runhills
Timmy
11-06-2007, 08:32 PM
The TV decision was made years ago, long before Al Gore invented the Internet.........:slaphappy
The TV was also not necessary for work, school etc.
Later, along came the WWW. It became apparent that the Internet was not merely entertainment, but the new form of communication, and a necessity for many jobs, and education. In fact, some people have their entire living relying on the web.
Not to mention the fact that with the flood of technology, phones, laptops, Internet, etc etc, You cant just ban all forms of information, and communication. It became apparent that it is up to the individual to police his actions, because we are flooded with opportunities for bringing ungodly things into out homes/lives.
Many churches have adapted by teaching holiness from a love and dedication stand point, instead of just banning one form or another.
Pastors have come to realize that people are going to do what they want, and you can no longer use the same methods as before to help people keep sin out of their lives. So they teach what the bible says about sin, murders, adultery etc, and what the bible says about those who put it before their eyes, and "take pleasure in them that do" those sins.
That's why many pastors have stayed with the stand against TV, but realized the same restrictions simply cannot apply to the Internet.
Uh. OK. That clears it right up.
Let's see. Can't ban all forms of communication, so we might as well keep on banning TV. Since it was banned a long time ago. And some people make their living with the web. Uh. OK.
rgcraig
11-06-2007, 08:36 PM
Uh. OK. That clears it right up.
Let's see. Can't ban all forms of communication, so we might as well keep on banning TV. Since it was banned a long time ago. And some people make their living with the web. Uh. OK.
You forgot the main point - "but realized the same restrictions simply cannot apply to the Internet"
Timmy
11-06-2007, 08:48 PM
You forgot the main point - "but realized the same restrictions simply cannot apply to the Internet"
Oh yeah, that too. Cannot. But I bet they wish they could! :toofunny
Pastor G
11-06-2007, 09:07 PM
Now how on earth can someone compromise what I believe?
One can only compromise their own beliefs.
But then, I think you knew what I meant.
:stirpot
Have I inadvertently stepped into a pool of piranhas ready to go into a feeding frenzy when someone says something they disagree with?
I don't want anyone to compromise what they believe either. If you all don't watch or don't want to be on TV, I hope you don't compromise that at all.. However, me being on or watching TV does not compromise my beliefs whatsoever...
And what might be amazing to a lot of folks is that if your pastor is who I think he is... Though we don't always see eye to eye, he and I get along great and have for many years... He in my opinion goes about it all in the right way... He believes what he believes but gives another person the latitude to believe what they believe as long as it doesn't cross doctrinal lines.. That is one major reason he is one of the most respected men in our fellowship... Again, if your pastor is WH like I think...
Joseph Miller
11-06-2007, 09:23 PM
I don't want anyone to compromise what they believe either. If you all don't watch or don't want to be on TV, I hope you don't compromise that at all.. However, me being on or watching TV does not compromise my beliefs whatsoever...
And what might be amazing to a lot of folks is that if your pastor is who I think he is... Though we don't always see eye to eye, he and I get along great and have for many years... He in my opinion goes about it all in the right way... He believes what he believes but gives another person the latitude to believe what they believe as long as it doesn't cross doctrinal lines.. That is one major reason he is one of the most respected men in our fellowship... Again, if your pastor is WH like I think...
If you are right on who their pastor is, he is one of the greatest preachers I have ever heard.
Lord no, not without an answer from RKS! :yourock
Apparently RKS is a one trick pony that don't do "answers", just vain repetitions!
irish1
11-06-2007, 10:10 PM
Oh yeah, that too. Cannot. But I bet they wish they could! :toofunny
Yeah, good one, conservative people are soooo dumb and ignorant. Really, anybody who doesn't agree with you is a crackpot. That's a good one.
Joseph Miller
11-06-2007, 10:11 PM
Apparently RKS is a one trick pony that don't do "answers", just vain repetitions!
Didn't Jesus condemn vain repetitions? :stirpot :runhills
Yeah, good one, conservative people are soooo dumb and ignorant. Really, anybody who doesn't agree with you is a crackpot. That's a good one.
This isn't Timmy but for me it isn't anybody who disagrees with me, just some including all of the Ron Paul supporters and Black Helicopter folks (of which AFF and it's predecessors have had their share).
meBNme
11-06-2007, 11:05 PM
I don't want anyone to compromise what they believe either. If you all don't watch or don't want to be on TV, I hope you don't compromise that at all.. However, me being on or watching TV does not compromise my beliefs whatsoever...
And what might be amazing to a lot of folks is that if your pastor is who I think he is... Though we don't always see eye to eye, he and I get along great and have for many years... He in my opinion goes about it all in the right way... He believes what he believes but gives another person the latitude to believe what they believe as long as it doesn't cross doctrinal lines.. That is one major reason he is one of the most respected men in our fellowship... Again, if your pastor is WH like I think...
Yes, indeed it sounds like you know my pastor. He has also taught us that some "standards" are not heaven or hell issues, it's just where WE draw OUR lines in the sand.
The old saying applies here, "you've got to stand for something, or you'll fall for anything."
As for compromise, that word is thrown around a lot, and used in an accusatory manner, but many times it is used wrongly.
When I speak of compromise, I mean that when one has believed something and then due to pressure from outside sources, or a loss of commitment, they give in and no longer stand for what they once did, they have compromised.
Now, since we are not perfect, sometimes compromise is a good thing.
But most times when one is talking holiness, standards, and doctrine, it is usually simply a falling away from what is right, and what was once preached.
That is never good.
To you and Joseph Miller, thanks for the kind words about my pastor, It is always nice to hear good things spoken of people you admire and respect.
meBNme
11-06-2007, 11:14 PM
Yeah, good one, conservative people are soooo dumb and ignorant. Really, anybody who doesn't agree with you is a crackpot. That's a good one.
OOOHH!! a stereotyper!
So what box do YOU fit in?
You like to lump people together, call them derogatory names, insult their intelligence, and then condemn them for calling people a crackpot!?!?
Let me guess, you are the shining example to us all of what a Christian should be huh?
meBNme
11-06-2007, 11:31 PM
Oh yeah, that too. Cannot. But I bet they wish they could! :toofunny
And why would you think that?
Would you put parental controls on your children's computers?
If you lived right near the edge of a cliff would you not want a fence to prevent your guests and family from falling off it?
So whats wrong with fences?
Many of us who believe that restricting TV and things of that nature are not doing it because we like restrictions. We do it because we realize there is a cliff there, and we want a fence. Now some of you may only want a sign saying "DANGER". Some may want nothing and expect everyone to lean to their own understanding, see to their own safety. That's all fine and good, but some of us want that fence, with signs, and maybe even a little barbed wire on top. Something to scream "DON'T FALL OFF THE CLIFF!!!"
Also, did you ever think that the Standard, or "fence" is not there to keep people in, but to keep the dangers out?
So why would you think that everyone who stands against TV would desire to restrict the Internet? Do you have the impression that everyone who holds a little stricter standard than you is a "restriction" happy nutcase who just loves to ban things?
I hear so many crying about not wanting to have their beliefs restricted, while the whole time, bashing those who believe a little more conservatively.
How does THAT work?
Timmy
11-07-2007, 09:04 AM
Yeah, good one, conservative people are soooo dumb and ignorant. Really, anybody who doesn't agree with you is a crackpot. That's a good one.
No, not just anybody. :sly I respect all opinions, but especially the ones that are logically articulated. If they're not, then I don't mind pointing out the gaping holes, even though it's embarrassingly easy sometimes. Holes that everyone but them can see. Could walk through, actually. What's wrong with that? In fact, it might help the guy build a better case!
So, you don't think UCs would like to forbid the internet, if they could? (BTW, some, in fact, do! I guess all those jobs meBNme mentioned that require it are also forbidden.) Look again at meBNme's explanation. It looked like he was arguing with himself there, for a while. Then there was the out-of-left-field conclusion:
"but realized the same restrictions simply cannot apply to the Internet."
Sure makes it sound like they tried, but decided they couldn't.
It seems that a major reason not to forbid the internet is that many jobs require it. OK. How many jobs is enough to justify it? There are many jobs in the TV industry, too. Some jobs require women to wear pants. Some jobs require serving alcohol to customers. Some jobs require making lists of do's and don't's for their followers. (Sorry, couldn't resist!) Should any of these things not be banned, just because jobs depend on them?
Timmy
11-07-2007, 09:05 AM
OOOHH!! a stereotyper!
So what box do YOU fit in?
You like to lump people together, call them derogatory names, insult their intelligence, and then condemn them for calling people a crackpot!?!?
Let me guess, you are the shining example to us all of what a Christian should be huh?
Easy, boy. He's on your side!
meBNme
11-07-2007, 12:55 PM
Easy, boy. He's on your side!
On my side.....
Maybe that's the problem with apostolics today, They are so busy taking sides against one another they lose sight of whats really important.
On my side....
And you aren't? You are not on the side of wanting churches to grow, souls to be saved, The name of Jesus to be lifted up and the truth to be shared?
THATS the side I am on. And I don't really give a flyin flip if someone doesn't agree 100% with all of my beliefs. If they are on the same side I am on, that's what matters.
Also, just because someone is "on my side" does not mean that I will support every bad spirit, attitude, or action that they take.
I don't like the name calling, bashing, personal attacking, liberal socialists out there. But I also don't like it when conservatives that do the same things.
If its wrong, its wrong. No matter what "side" you are on.
Consapostolic1
11-07-2007, 01:06 PM
On my side.....
Maybe that's the problem with apostolics today, They are so busy taking sides against one another they lose sight of whats really important.
On my side....
And you aren't? You are not on the side of wanting churches to grow, souls to be saved, The name of Jesus to be lifted up and the truth to be shared?
THATS the side I am on. And I don't really give a flyin flip if someone doesn't agree 100% with all of my beliefs. If they are on the same side I am on, that's what matters.
Also, just because someone is "on my side" does not mean that I will support every bad spirit, attitude, or action that they take.
I don't like the name calling, bashing, personal attacking, liberal socialists out there. But I also don't like it when conservatives that do the same things.
If its wrong, its wrong. No matter what "side" you are on.
One of the best posts that I've read in a while. Amen
Mr. Steinway
11-07-2007, 01:13 PM
On my side.....
Maybe that's the problem with apostolics today, They are so busy taking sides against one another they lose sight of whats really important.
On my side....
And you aren't? You are not on the side of wanting churches to grow, souls to be saved, The name of Jesus to be lifted up and the truth to be shared?
THATS the side I am on. And I don't really give a flyin flip if someone doesn't agree 100% with all of my beliefs. If they are on the same side I am on, that's what matters.
Also, just because someone is "on my side" does not mean that I will support every bad spirit, attitude, or action that they take.
I don't like the name calling, bashing, personal attacking, liberal socialists out there. But I also don't like it when conservatives that do the same things.
If its wrong, its wrong. No matter what "side" you are on.
It sounds like I'm on your side! :D
Timmy
11-07-2007, 01:16 PM
On my side.....
Maybe that's the problem with apostolics today, They are so busy taking sides against one another they lose sight of whats really important.
On my side....
And you aren't? You are not on the side of wanting churches to grow, souls to be saved, The name of Jesus to be lifted up and the truth to be shared?
THATS the side I am on. And I don't really give a flyin flip if someone doesn't agree 100% with all of my beliefs. If they are on the same side I am on, that's what matters.
Also, just because someone is "on my side" does not mean that I will support every bad spirit, attitude, or action that they take.
I don't like the name calling, bashing, personal attacking, liberal socialists out there. But I also don't like it when conservatives that do the same things.
If its wrong, its wrong. No matter what "side" you are on.
Good points!
Timmy
11-07-2007, 01:17 PM
MeBNme already defined compromise: "When one goes back on their beliefs, giving in to the pressure, that is compromise." So, if "they" believe TV is OK, they would be compromisers if they joined up with the anti-TV crowd.
So, meBNme, did you once believe that TV was OK? If so, then I guess you are a compromiser. If not, have you ever changed anything you believe?
Know any Trinitarians that converted to Oneness? Compromisers!
Bump.
Pastor G
11-07-2007, 01:23 PM
On my side.....
Maybe that's the problem with apostolics today, They are so busy taking sides against one another they lose sight of whats really important.
On my side....
And you aren't? You are not on the side of wanting churches to grow, souls to be saved, The name of Jesus to be lifted up and the truth to be shared?
THATS the side I am on. And I don't really give a flyin flip if someone doesn't agree 100% with all of my beliefs. If they are on the same side I am on, that's what matters.
Also, just because someone is "on my side" does not mean that I will support every bad spirit, attitude, or action that they take.
I don't like the name calling, bashing, personal attacking, liberal socialists out there. But I also don't like it when conservatives that do the same things.
If its wrong, its wrong. No matter what "side" you are on.
Sounds like you and your great pastor have the same viewpoint... great post...
meBNme
11-07-2007, 01:52 PM
..........
So, you don't think UCs would like to forbid the internet, if they could? (BTW, some, in fact, do! I guess all those jobs meBNme mentioned that require it are also forbidden.) Look again at meBNme's explanation. It looked like he was arguing with himself there, for a while. Then there was the out-of-left-field conclusion:
"but realized the same restrictions simply cannot apply to the Internet."
Sure makes it sound like they tried, but decided they couldn't.
It seems that a major reason not to forbid the internet is that many jobs require it. OK. How many jobs is enough to justify it? There are many jobs in the TV industry, too. Some jobs require women to wear pants. Some jobs require serving alcohol to customers. Some jobs require making lists of do's and don't's for their followers. (Sorry, couldn't resist!) Should any of these things not be banned, just because jobs depend on them?
Whats a "UC"?
Where was I arguing with myself?
Or do you feel that when someone tries to present more than one side of an argument that they are contradicting themselves?
On the other hand, it sounds as if you are contradicting yourself when you say "So, you don't think UCs would like to forbid the Internet, if they could? (BTW, some, in fact, do!"
If some do, then obviously others could if they wanted to, so that's invalid.
I cannot explain every churches/persons motivations for what they disapprove/approve of. I can only explain mine.
While the Internet and TV do have some similarities, they are quite different.
You are comparing an apple, to a fruit basket.
I can't speak for those who ban everything. I can't speak for those who allow everything. I can only give my perspective as to why TV is not approved, but the Internet is.
You have to draw a line somewhere, or else there is confusion, which is not of God. Personally, I don't want to be a part of that. My personal line is at TV, as is the church I am blessed to be a part of. I gave my explanation as to why that's where the line was drawn.
If you don't like that, draw yer own line Fred. Make it as close to the edge of the cliff as you like. Make it anything from a fishing line to a barbed wire electric fence.
Hey, just pretend the line is there if you want. As for me, I draw it at TV. I don't need TV, if I had TV I would wind up seeing things I shouldn't. You have to click things on the web, with TV, you could be watching the news and some ungodly trash comes on. Its in commercials, shows, nearly everywhere. I do however need the Internet, and with filters and software I can block the crud that would pop up, and just not click the sites that show the filth.
So therefore, that's where my line is drawn.
You asked why, that's why. You don't like it, go watch TV.
Sure, one big reason the Internet is allowed is for employment reasons, but it's certainly not the only reason. So why attack that one reason and pick apart the whole idea as if that were the only reason? Are you going to ignore everything else just so your argument will seem stronger? You don't do that with scripture do you? So why do it here?
Sure makes it sound like they tried, but decided they couldn't.
So if someone evaluates a situation, and attempts to see it from all sides in order to come to the best decision, that now means "they tried to restrict it, but decided they couldn't"?
How about "They looked at it with an open mind and realized it was a different situation all together, and felt it should be allowed"?
Or do we just like looking at things with a negative spirit?
As for the job requirements you spoke of.
If you take a job offer, but it requires you to compromise your beliefs, would you take it?
For those who feel the Internet is inappropriate, they should not take web based jobs. The same with alcohol, and pants.
However, for those who feel that the Internet is OK (if safety measures are taken) what is wrong with allowing the Internet, and jobs requiring it's use?
Again, you have to draw the line somewhere, so why bash someone simply because their line isn't in the same place you have yours?
Joseph Miller
11-07-2007, 02:08 PM
On my side.....
Maybe that's the problem with apostolics today, They are so busy taking sides against one another they lose sight of whats really important.
On my side....
And you aren't? You are not on the side of wanting churches to grow, souls to be saved, The name of Jesus to be lifted up and the truth to be shared?
THATS the side I am on. And I don't really give a flyin flip if someone doesn't agree 100% with all of my beliefs. If they are on the same side I am on, that's what matters.
Also, just because someone is "on my side" does not mean that I will support every bad spirit, attitude, or action that they take.
I don't like the name calling, bashing, personal attacking, liberal socialists out there. But I also don't like it when conservatives that do the same things.
If its wrong, its wrong. No matter what "side" you are on.
AMEN!!!
Timmy
11-07-2007, 03:54 PM
You've made some good points, meBNme. I'll address your post when I have some time.
Timmy
11-07-2007, 06:37 PM
Whats a "UC"?
Ultraconservative
Where was I arguing with myself?
Looked like arguing with yourself:
"It became apparent that it is up to the individual to police his actions"
"Many churches have adapted by teaching holiness from a love and dedication stand point, instead of just banning one form or another." (This sounds like a good thing, to me, and you don't seem to be painting it in a bad light.)
"Pastors have come to realize that people are going to do what they want"
"So they teach what the bible says about sin, murders, adultery etc,"
Or do you feel that when someone tries to present more than one side of an argument that they are contradicting themselves?
Have to admit, it kinda threw me!
On the other hand, it sounds as if you are contradicting yourself when you say "So, you don't think UCs would like to forbid the Internet, if they could? (BTW, some, in fact, do!"
If some do, then obviously others could if they wanted to, so that's invalid.
Good point! I could have said it better, but what I meant was that some conservatives would like to ban the internet, but don't, for various reasons, even though they technically could. As someone pointed out on another thread, I bet it's sometimes for personal reasons: they find it useful, themselves. You are right -- "would if they could" is too strong a statement. (But I was replying to your saying "...simply cannot apply...", after all.)
I cannot explain every churches/persons motivations for what they disapprove/approve of. I can only explain mine.
While the Internet and TV do have some similarities, they are quite different.
You are comparing an apple, to a fruit basket.
Ah! This is an interesting analogy! Is TV the apple, and the internet the fruit basket? That seems apropos, considering that you can get virtually all the content of TV on the internet, and a whole lot more! So yep, you're right. Similar but different. The internet is way more dangerous.
I can't speak for those who ban everything. I can't speak for those who allow everything. I can only give my perspective as to why TV is not approved, but the Internet is.
Thanks.
You have to draw a line somewhere, or else there is confusion, which is not of God.
Sure! It certainly doesn't bother me where you draw your line. Odd, though, to characterize those who draw a different line as compromisers. (Speaking of which, I'm looking forward to your response to the post I bumped a while ago, if you don't mind.)
Personally, I don't want to be a part of that. My personal line is at TV, as is the church I am blessed to be a part of. I gave my explanation as to why that's where the line was drawn.
If you don't like that, draw yer own line Fred.
OK.
Make it as close to the edge of the cliff as you like.
OK. I wonder what internet banning folks think about your line? Same as you think about mine, I suppose.
Make it anything from a fishing line to a barbed wire electric fence.
Hey, just pretend the line is there if you want. As for me, I draw it at TV. I don't need TV, if I had TV I would wind up seeing things I shouldn't. You have to click things on the web, with TV, you could be watching the news and some ungodly trash comes on. Its in commercials, shows, nearly everywhere.
You do have something of a point, there. Assuming that it is going to somehow damage you, or your spirit, or your relationship with God, or something, if you accidentally get a glimpse of, say, a girl wearing a bikini. Or a beer commercial.
I do however need the Internet, and with filters and software I can block the crud that would pop up, and just not click the sites that show the filth.
Also somewhat of a good point. As long as you have the integrity not to bypass it. It's self-control, isn't it? But that's the same as TV (other than the filth that jumps out at you, when you're just watching the news or something. Can't help ya there.)
So therefore, that's where my line is drawn.
You asked why, that's why. You don't like it, go watch TV.
Sure, one big reason the Internet is allowed is for employment reasons, but it's certainly not the only reason. So why attack that one reason and pick apart the whole idea as if that were the only reason? Are you going to ignore everything else just so your argument will seem stronger? You don't do that with scripture do you? So why do it here?
So if someone evaluates a situation, and attempts to see it from all sides in order to come to the best decision, that now means "they tried to restrict it, but decided they couldn't"?
How about "They looked at it with an open mind and realized it was a different situation all together, and felt it should be allowed"?
Or do we just like looking at things with a negative spirit?
As for the job requirements you spoke of.
If you take a job offer, but it requires you to compromise your beliefs, would you take it?
No.
For those who feel the Internet is inappropriate, they should not take web based jobs. The same with alcohol, and pants.
However, for those who feel that the Internet is OK (if safety measures are taken) what is wrong with allowing the Internet, and jobs requiring it's use?
Nothing.
Again, you have to draw the line somewhere, so why bash someone simply because their line isn't in the same place you have yours?
Yeah. Why?
Question: is it a sin to watch TV? I mean the very act of watching something on TV, not (at this point) considering exactly what the show is.
rgcraig
11-07-2007, 08:47 PM
I hear RKS has posed the same statement on the other forum....hopefully, they are more successful in getting dialogue with him than we are here!
meBNme
11-07-2007, 10:19 PM
Now this is cool. We can actually have a conversation like this.
I think that's the way it should be personally.
what I meant was that some conservatives would like to ban the internet, but don't, for various reasons, even though they technically could. As someone pointed out on another thread, I bet it's sometimes for personal reasons: they find it useful, themselves. You are right -- "would if they could" is too strong a statement. (But I was replying to your saying "...simply cannot apply...", after all.)
I have no problem with this.
Ah! This is an interesting analogy! Is TV the apple, and the internet the fruit basket? That seems apropos, considering that you can get virtually all the content of TV on the internet, and a whole lot more! So yep, you're right. Similar but different. The internet is way more dangerous.
Yes, that's what I meant exactly. With one exception.
I agree that the Internet has the potential to be more dangerous. But it also has more methods to filter, block and limit the content that is available. If all these Are in place, it is far more manageable than TV.
How many times have you been watching a show, or movie, that seems perfectly fine, only to be blasted half way through with partial nudity, and/or a slew of F words and GDs? Even on PG13 rated media.
Personally, if there were a way to eliminate that sort of thing, and all commercials/previews and other crud that has inappropriate content, I wouldn't have such a problem with TV. So far I haven't see that.
Sure! It certainly doesn't bother me where you draw your line. Odd, though, to characterize those who draw a different line as compromisers. (Speaking of which, I'm looking forward to your response to the post I bumped a while ago, if you don't mind.)
If I gave that impression, I apologise. I thought I had made it clear before hand what my view of compromise means. Just because they are different from me does not mean they are compromisers. But if they once believed it, and now have gone back, that is compromise. A lesser conviction than mine is just that, and not necessarily compromise.
(I was wondering what "bumped" meant! LOL)
OK. I wonder what Internet banning folks think about your line? Same as you think about mine, I suppose.
That it is a lesser conviction and a danger? probably. But just the same, I would hope they would look at my view with an open mind before declaring how I am wrong and a heathen worthy of flogging.:club
You do have something of a point, there. Assuming that it is going to somehow damage you, or your spirit, or your relationship with God, or something, if you accidentally get a glimpse of, say, a girl wearing a bikini. Or a beer commercial.
Romans 1:29-31 describes in detail some of the things/sins that are so boldly presented on TV. Verse 32 goes on to say.....
"Who knowing the judgement of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
If we don't have pleasure in watching "them that do them" why are we watching them?
Romans 12:2
"And be not conformed to this world : but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind......"
What we watch, hear, read, does affect us, and over time conforms us.
1 Corinthians 15:33
"Be not deceived, evil communications corrupt good manners."
1 Thessalonians 5:22
"Abstain from all appearance of evil"
Deuteronomy 7:26
"Neither shalt thou bring an abomination into thine house, lest thou be a cursed thing like it: But thou shalt utterly detest it, and thou shalt utterly abhor it; for it is a cursed thing."
Many of the things shown on TV are abominations unto God. I don't think the bible leaves any grey area on that.
What you see certainly will affect you. The random bikini girl/beer commercial? What about all the other stuff? It's like walking through a sewer and not being grossed out until you see some floating toilet paper. you are up your knees in people poop George! And you only make note of the clumpy toilet paper!?!?!? wake up and smell the.......:eeeew
Also somewhat of a good point. As long as you have the integrity not to bypass it. It's self-control, isn't it? But that's the same as TV (other than the filth that jumps out at you, when you're just watching the news or something. Can't help ya there.)
It is self controll, thus the reason for my comments about many churches now teaching it from a love and commitment standpoint, and realizing that it isn't so simple as to just say no to things anymore. One realizes that people now have to know Why TV was restricted, and apply that to all the other areas in our lives.
And it isn't the same as TV, with TV you simply will see it. Its in everything from deodorant commercials to comedy shows. You "ain't gotta click it", its just there.
Question: is it a sin to watch TV? I mean the very act of watching something on TV, not (at this point) considering exactly what the show is.
A sin to watch TV? There's nothing evil about the box. I see nothing wrong with some of the few good things on TV. Its all the other crud that worms its way in there. Maybe you can discipline yourself to only watch the history Chanel, but the major majority will wind up seeing the other stuff too.
So its certainly understandable that a pastor would feel the need to draw the line there. That the shepherd would want to keep the wolves away, even the "tame" ones, the ones that are someones pet and just like a puppy.
meBNme
11-07-2007, 10:36 PM
This is just for you Timmy;)
MeBNme already defined compromise: "When one goes back on their beliefs, giving in to the pressure, that is compromise." So, if "they" believe TV is OK, they would be compromisers if they joined up with the anti-TV crowd.
So, meBNme, did you once believe that TV was OK? If so, then I guess you are a compromiser. If not, have you ever changed anything you believe?
Know any Trinitarians that converted to Oneness? Compromisers!
Nah, I've never believed Tv as a whole was Ok
Compromise, as defined by websters dictionary third colledge edition pg287
"to weaken or give up (one's principles, ideals, etc.) as for reasons of expediancy"
If one strengthens ones beliefs it is not compromise. If one goes back on their beliefs, it IS compromise.
Simply changing something you believe is not compromise.
Did Paul compromise the gospel when he was converted?
How about the church of Laodicea, did they compromise?
The definition of compromise is exactly what was done when the upic supported the internet.
The 2005 upci manual almost word for word says the same thing about television and the internet except the internet was accepted and television wasn't.
The same principle for television should apply to the internet. Legalism favorite two words is "Yeah, but....".
Compromise does not always mean one goes back on what one believes. Compromise also means to sacrifice one's principles for the sake of convenience. That is what the legalists did with the internet. Biggest mistake legalists ever made was to support internet. It opened the door for the passing of the tv resolution.
This is just for you Timmy;)
Nah, I've never believed Tv as a whole was Ok
Compromise, as defined by websters dictionary third colledge edition pg287
"to weaken or give up (one's principles, ideals, etc.) as for reasons of expediancy"
If one strengthens ones beliefs it is not compromise. If one goes back on their beliefs, it IS compromise.
Simply changing something you believe is not compromise.
Did Paul compromise the gospel when he was converted?
How about the church of Laodicea, did they compromise?
SisBeezer
11-08-2007, 04:20 AM
The definition of compromise is exactly what was done when the upic supported the internet.
The 2005 upci manual almost word for word says the same thing about television and the internet except the internet was accepted and television wasn't.
The same principle for television should apply to the internet. Legalism favorite two words is "Yeah, but....".
Compromise does not always mean one goes back on what one believes. Compromise also means to sacrifice one's principles for the sake of convenience. That is what the legalists did with the internet. Biggest mistake legalists ever made was to support internet. It opened the door for the passing of the tv resolution.
i couldnt have said it better.
Michael Phelps
11-08-2007, 05:36 AM
The definition of compromise is exactly what was done when the upic supported the internet.
The 2005 upci manual almost word for word says the same thing about television and the internet except the internet was accepted and television wasn't.
The same principle for television should apply to the internet. Legalism favorite two words is "Yeah, but....".
Compromise does not always mean one goes back on what one believes. Compromise also means to sacrifice one's principles for the sake of convenience. That is what the legalists did with the internet. Biggest mistake legalists ever made was to support internet. It opened the door for the passing of the tv resolution.
BINGO! This is right on the money!
That's why it's wrong for women to wear pants, unless they're skiing in the winter time, and then they should wear a dress OVER the pants.
And, it's wrong for men to wear beards, unless it's the Easter or Christmas play.
And, it's wrong to own a TV, but ok to watch one in a hotel room.
Too many inconsistencies.........people lose faith in the principle when they see it so loosely interpreted.
Pastor G
11-08-2007, 08:26 AM
meBNme, I copied and put this little paragraph you wrote from a couple of posts earlier... It was a real long one so I just did it this way to keep it short... I respect your beliefs totally... But wanted to give you just a point of information in regards to this paragraph..
Yes, that's what I meant exactly. With one exception.
I agree that the Internet has the potential to be more dangerous. But it also has more methods to filter, block and limit the content that is available. If all these Are in place, it is far more manageable than TV.
How many times have you been watching a show, or movie, that seems perfectly fine, only to be blasted half way through with partial nudity, and/or a slew of F words and GDs? Even on PG13 rated media.
Almost, if not every TV service provider in our area has built into their system, a parental control that you may use, if you wish, to filter your TV.. You can filter it to where nothing but G rated programs and commercials are seen, on up to pg - pg 13 ect... You may also totally block any stations you wish... If you have a g rated block on and a commercial or program is coming on that is above that the screen goes blank or says blocked on it... It even applies to the news...
crakjak
11-08-2007, 09:03 AM
meBNme, I copied and put this little paragraph you wrote from a couple of posts earlier... It was a real long one so I just did it this way to keep it short... I respect your beliefs totally... But wanted to give you just a point of information in regards to this paragraph..
Yes, that's what I meant exactly. With one exception.
I agree that the Internet has the potential to be more dangerous. But it also has more methods to filter, block and limit the content that is available. If all these Are in place, it is far more manageable than TV.
How many times have you been watching a show, or movie, that seems perfectly fine, only to be blasted half way through with partial nudity, and/or a slew of F words and GDs? Even on PG13 rated media.
Almost, if not every TV service provider in our area has built into their system, a parental control that you may use, if you wish, to filter your TV.. You can filter it to where nothing but G rated programs and commercials are seen, on up to pg - pg 13 ect... You may also totally block any stations you wish... If you have a g rated block on and a commercial or program is coming on that is above that the screen goes blank or says blocked on it... It even applies to the news...
This is true, TV and movies can be filtered, just as effectively as the internet.
You can have TVG on your equipment to filter out all objectionable language, on broadcast, cable and rented movies. We have had it for over 15 years, and continue it today even though our children are grown. It is still important to be selective on what you watch even with the filtering. When we are in Christ there is so much in the world in general that does not appeal to us or interest us. Hollywood can dish up all the garbage that it likes, but we're just not hungry.
meBNme
11-08-2007, 09:20 AM
Pastor G and Crakjak
That is very interesting info, and if true and available and it would make TV just as manageable as the web, then I see no problem with it.
Could you provide more info on how one can get these things?
If it's reliable, and removes all of the inapropriate content, then it is removing what made TV banned in the first place.
I would reevaluate my position if I were convinced it was effective.
Pastor G
11-08-2007, 09:39 AM
Pastor G and Crakjak
That is very interesting info, and if true and available and it would make TV just as manageable as the web, then I see no problem with it.
Could you provide more info on how one can get these things?
If it's reliable, and removes all of the inapropriate content, then it is removing what made TV banned in the first place.
I would reevaluate my position if I were convinced it was effective.
I don't know what tv service providers are available there in your area... There is a plethora of providers here... I will send you a private message of some of the ones here and you can check there...
meBNme
11-08-2007, 09:56 AM
BINGO! This is right on the money!
That's why it's wrong for women to wear pants, unless they're skiing in the winter time, and then they should wear a dress OVER the pants.
Ummm isn't it then considered underwear? Its just long and warm instead of short and lacy. If the skirt comes of, its no longer under wear, its outerwear.
And, it's wrong for men to wear beards, unless it's the Easter or Christmas play.
I'm not sure about other churches, but in our church, we do not wear our own natural beards any time of the year. For drama's, we will wear a costume beard thats no different from the turban or headwrap part of the costume. I see it no differently as wearing black face paint to portray a demonic spirit in a drama.
And, it's wrong to own a TV, but ok to watch one in a hotel room.
Who said that?
Too many inconsistencies.........people lose faith in the principle when they see it so loosely interpreted.
Then their faith is in the wrong place. It shouldnt matter what someone else does. If someone elses inconsitancies cause ones faith to fail, then they had their faith in the "someone else" instead of the word of God.
Even Paul himself said, if any man (including himself) preach another gospel, let him be accursed.
So if someone preaches that you should not gargle with green mouthwash, and then they gargel with green mouthwash, are you going to throw the towel in and go drink some jack daniels?
No, you just realize that people are imperfect humans, we must place our faith in the word of God, and keep on living what we believe to be right.(you might change pastors however LOL)
The bible says to make sure your own salvation.
You can't live by the law, you must live by love.
If you live by love, it wouldnt matter if Kenneth Haney came to general confrence wearing a too too and thigh highs with a long blond wig, shouting about gay rights. You would just chalk him up as a fruit loop and keep living for God anyways. Now if your faith was in an orginization, or a man, then yeah, eventually somone WILL let you down, and you will falter.
Whole Hearted
11-08-2007, 10:00 AM
The UPC has needed a healer for a while now.
The symptoms where ignore, just like many people do, until it is too late.
I cancer is detected early it can be dealt with and the person might be saved, but if ignored it kills.
This is what has happened in the UPC. There were some that voiced concerns, but they were told that it was nothing to worry about. Now we see that the UPC was sick and now maybe even unto death.
The UPC needs a HEALER AND MAYBE NEEDS TO BE RESERECTED.
rgcraig
11-08-2007, 10:05 AM
The UPC has needed a healer for a while now.
The symptoms where ignore, just like many people do, until it is too late.
I cancer is detected early it can be dealt with and the person might be saved, but if ignored it kills.
This is what has happened in the UPC. There were some that voiced concerns, but they were told that it was nothing to worry about. Now we see that the UPC was sick and now maybe even unto death.
The UPC needs a HEALER AND MAYBE NEEDS TO BE RESERECTED.
Do you REALLY believe this?
Just because it doesn't line up exactly like you want it to you think it will die?
crakjak
11-08-2007, 10:08 AM
Pastor G and Crakjak
That is very interesting info, and if true and available and it would make TV just as manageable as the web, then I see no problem with it.
Could you provide more info on how one can get these things?
If it's reliable, and removes all of the inapropriate content, then it is removing what made TV banned in the first place.
I would reevaluate my position if I were convinced it was effective.
TVG is available from Family Bookstores. Some cable companies are currently looking into making TVG available with their services.
AKA TV Guardian. Bought one for my son and DIL for Christmas after they were married, the love it. Cost is about $100.
Whole Hearted
11-08-2007, 10:13 AM
Do you REALLY believe this?
Just because it doesn't line up exactly like you want it to you think it will die?
Yes mam I really believe what I said.
Sheltiedad
11-08-2007, 10:42 AM
If the UPC dies because of television then it deserves to die.
Yes mam I really believe what I said.
I certainly would never question that you don't believe it.
Just like so many people in the middle ages sincerely believed the earth was flat. :hanky
BoredOutOfMyMind
11-08-2007, 11:52 AM
If the UPC dies because of television then it deserves to die.
Another dumb post.
This infers that TV brings life or death.
Sheltiedad
11-08-2007, 11:55 AM
Another dumb post.
This infers that TV brings life or death.
I stand by this post... I think yours is dumb...
And do not put words in my mouth... it is the anti-television people that are saying this...
I am saying that if television could do that to the organization than it wasn't worth saving in the first place.
rgcraig
11-08-2007, 11:56 AM
Another dumb post.
This infers that TV brings life or death.
I didn't read it that way at all.
Michael Phelps
11-08-2007, 11:58 AM
Ummm isn't it then considered underwear? Its just long and warm instead of short and lacy. If the skirt comes of, its no longer under wear, its outerwear.
I'm not sure about other churches, but in our church, we do not wear our own natural beards any time of the year. For drama's, we will wear a costume beard thats no different from the turban or headwrap part of the costume. I see it no differently as wearing black face paint to portray a demonic spirit in a drama.
Who said that?
Then their faith is in the wrong place. It shouldnt matter what someone else does. If someone elses inconsitancies cause ones faith to fail, then they had their faith in the "someone else" instead of the word of God.
Even Paul himself said, if any man (including himself) preach another gospel, let him be accursed.
So if someone preaches that you should not gargle with green mouthwash, and then they gargel with green mouthwash, are you going to throw the towel in and go drink some jack daniels?
No, you just realize that people are imperfect humans, we must place our faith in the word of God, and keep on living what we believe to be right.(you might change pastors however LOL)
The bible says to make sure your own salvation.
You can't live by the law, you must live by love.
If you live by love, it wouldnt matter if Kenneth Haney came to general confrence wearing a too too and thigh highs with a long blond wig, shouting about gay rights. You would just chalk him up as a fruit loop and keep living for God anyways. Now if your faith was in an orginization, or a man, then yeah, eventually somone WILL let you down, and you will falter.
HUH? Pants are just considered underwear if there is a skirt over them? I hope you're kidding........
And, a fake beard is ok, but a real beard isn't? Is a fake tattoo ok? Are ear rings acceptable if they are only clip ons? Is it ok to drink non-alchoholic drinks that look like real drinks. in a public place if you preach that we should abstain from alcohol? Kind of blows the old "Avoid the very appearance of evil" concept that is preached so stronlgy.
And, as far as the incosistencies and people's faith being shaken by observing others, I would agree that people need to have their faith in God, but not in man. However, if it weren't important to show consistency, why does the Bible speak so often about letting our light shine BEFORE MEN, not God, so that others will see our good works? We preach so strongly that many of our outward standards are there for the sake of not offending others, or being a witness, etc. And yet, you pretty much just said that people shouldn't be swayed by our actions or appearance.
Come on, M, you've just illustrated some of the very inconsistencies of which I speak.
BoredOutOfMyMind
11-08-2007, 11:59 AM
I stand by this post... I think yours is dumb...
And do not put words in my mouth... it is the anti-television fools that are saying this...
I am saying that if television could do that to the organization than it wasn't worth saving in the first place.
I am sorry you added a dumb post to my reply that I felt you post was dumb. :bubble
Michael Phelps
11-08-2007, 12:01 PM
I am sorry you added a dumb post to my reply that I felt you post was dumb. :bubble
Exactly what about his post do you think is dumb, Boomm?
I'd have to agree with Sheltie that if the only thing holding the UPC together was the rule against television, that it's a pretty weak organization, and probably needs to disband.
rgcraig
11-08-2007, 12:03 PM
Exactly what about his post do you think is dumb, Boomm?
I'd have to agree with Sheltie that if the only thing holding the UPC together was the rule against television, that it's a pretty weak organization, and probably needs to disband.
That's exactly what I read in his post and I too agree. :bubble
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