Originally Posted by Stephen Hoover (Post 369452)

DJ, this has also been my observation. While I am not sure I can say they "had the most" it is apparant the hardline positions did not foster any special insulation, and that seems to be the point.

Originally Posted by MissBrattified (Post 369377)

They do?

Originally Posted by timlan2057 (Post 369026)

Now Steadfast, in your attempts to make these Tulsa brethren's motives appear as pure as the wind-driven snow, you gotta admit the kid might have a point here.

"Might"?

I KNOW he does.

Let's use a specific example of whether the Tulsa guys are motivated by the UPC drifting "leftward."

I guess "worldly sports" would be considered something these guys would be concerned with, eh?

I notice Rick Treece is one of the "council of 49."

He's a great guy, a fine minister and one of the not-so-many whose ministry is not just a pale reflection of daddy's. He carved out his own niche and is not just "prophecy preacher" Jr.

Marvin Treece was not my pastor. Murrell Ewing was. But Marvin Treece was probably the preacher I tried to emulate as far as study habits, qualifications and professional bearing.

One could sit in front of Marvin Treece and feel the same sense of "qualification" and "professionalism" that one feels in his doctor's or attorney's office.

That's not a common thing to me.

A significant number of "ole time" pentecostal preachers, I wouldn't want or trust to counsel me when to go use the bathroom, much less on weightier matters involving my career or family.

But my relationship with the Treeces goes back many years.

I've preached for them and they've preached for me.

Marvin and Rick never were big "organizational" men.

I don't mean that in a bad sense - but in the sense that Marvin might not go every night to Louisiana campmeeting because he was fatigued from preaching out. Like he told me one time: "I want to be home sometimes."

But I find it rather ludicrous that Rick Treece would be on the general board of a new organization predicated on being more "holy" and "conservative" than the present day UPC.

But anyway, back to "worldly sports."

My ex-brother-in-law has attended Apostolic Temple for many years.

And yes, we still have very friendly relations.

His sons are and were extremely good high school athletes ... almost borderline college-scholarship athletes. Baseball and basketball, primarily.

And yes, with all the "immodest clothing" and "worldly atmosphere" and all the tired old cliches "old time pentecost" throws at these things.

I checked with my son and daughter to be sure my facts were straight and they mentioned times when their cousins could not be at youth camp because of American Legion baseball schedules.

Now me personally?

I'M not calling "hypocrites." My children's cousins are fine young men and I'm glad they are examples of 21st century apostolic youth, ALONG with Kathleen Herles.

I guess the stone-throwers like this "Melody" would rather have them on a barstool than wearing a dress that shows a little shoulder or wearing basketball shorts.

I'm not condemning - I applaud Pastor Treece for not being some micro-manager pastor.

And yes, my ex-brother-in-law's family is involved and are one of the main families at Apostolic Temple - they are not just observers.

Pray tell, HOW would some of these neanderthals in the Tulsa crowd feel if they knew one of their oh-so-conservative general board members allows his youth to play worldly high school sports?

So what is happening?

This is a political shindig where these guys are tolerating in their buddies what they condemn in their political enemies.

That's the truth that this SPECIFIC example brings out.

I won't even TOUCH the TV thing.

But frankly, I don't blame Epley for laughing at some of the names on there who are so dead set against television while their churches are full of them.

I'll leave that alone.

But if any of you people trying to make plaster saints out of this Tulsa gang challenges me on this, I can and WILL name names.

But you people know the truth of that as much as I do.

So JrLa, for a young guy with a lot to learn, you hit the nail right on the head so don't let anyone try to tell you your youth betrays you here.

Tulsa is NOT about "convictions."

It's about POLITICS, pure and simple.

And some of you preachers and others can just wrestle with that all you want to.

Originally Posted by RevBuddy (Post 369465)

Hey, Ya'll...

Do you think it's tooooo early to have "merger" talks between the two organizations - the UPCI and the WPF?

I feel confident that there are many areas of mutual agreement and vision. Let's have 1 or 2 representatives from each organization meet to discuss potential dates and locations for official "merger" talks to be held. I'm sure these wonderful, anointed men can find a clear and true path to reconciliation and join together for the mutual benefit of all parties involved...

"Can't we all just get along?" Come on now, let's say, "yes" to the UWPFI!!

Originally Posted by scotty (Post 369470)

Originally Posted by Pastor Poster (Post 369129)

How is my post troubling?

I am not trying to be vicious here, I just don't think that entire conversation should be swept under the rug.

I was banned over that event.

I took my punishment - no problem.

I just think there is an issue that is being overlooked here.

Originally Posted by NW Pastor (Post 369775)

Does anyone on this forum believe for one minute that there will not be a new, totally separate organization which will arise from the WPF "fellowship"? All of this blather over who said what when gets a little tiresome. There will be a separation. Period.

Originally Posted by Dan (Post 369323)

You know Tim.....I agree with you. And if others would confess it, they know the same things.

Maybe we need to understand what WWPF stands for. How about W____ Wins Power Finally?

Just my opinion.

Originally Posted by connielori (Post 369830)

You obiviously don't know DR. W_________. He certainly doesn't have to be at the head of ANYTHING to have 'power'. Dr. W____________ is success personified. Take a trip to CA, and visit his church. Get an education on the growth and revival his church has experienced from his leadership....in a very small amount of time. Read a couple of his books. This is a GREAT man. A powerful man of God.....who needs validation from NO ONE.

Originally Posted by PastorD (Post 369875)

And yet he got up and walked out when he lost by 4 votes never to return again.


:bored

Originally Posted by pelathais (Post 369836)

The organizers are playing a careful game. They believe that they stand to gain a lot so they're careful with their words. Also, nothing exists in spoken words the way it appears on paper.

For example, no one's name was used without their permission. Period. That was checked and rechecked and no one was found to have slipped through. Yet when KH's letter is brought up where he describes people who said that their names were used without permission - does a contradiction exist? No! It's just a matter of timing and a misunderstanding. KH is "correct," but at the same time "mistaken."

Also, when the claims that "no organization was being formed" were being thrown around after Tampa, angry words were said to the skeptics. When the Bible quizzing site was put up, those angry words ceased and a wait-and-see attitude developed. Then when a full blown bureaucracy was revealed we were told that this was the plan all along. You were mistaken to have said, "No new organization was being formed."

The WPF web site was "hacked" when links to publically accessible pages were posted here. Apparently Google was involved in the "hacking" because the webmasters were careful to have submitted their brand new pages to the search engine for public indexing. Since when is submitting your own public web pages to Google so that anyone in the world can find them called "privacy?" But that's what the Tulsa organizers want us to believe.

Questions arose about the ethics of the recruiting methods. The UPCI mailing list was and then wasn't, and then was obtained for purposes of recruitment. Somehow WEC either waived all their standard procedures for the use of this list or ethics don't really apply when WEC is the "backslidden" party.

Using the UPC to split itself is "okay" because "no new organization was being formed." But then when the organization is formed, the participants all boast about the fine spirit in which this was done.

And we are called upon to applaud this work? Okay. I applaud. If they can keep it up for another year I will stand and applaud. But I would hope that they would blush before then.

Originally Posted by NW Pastor (Post 369879)

And he was not even at the Tampa conference to use his influence to defeat resolution 4. I wonder why? Perhaps if he had gone to Tampa, there would have been no Tulsa.

Originally Posted by TrmptPraise (Post 367811)

We really can't go by the numbers posted here can we. I am not saying the 1500 number in inaccurate. What I am saying is that we have no break down of those in attendance. What percentage are UPC ministers, what percentage are independents looking for a fellowship, what percentage are "observers?" We really won't know what the actual number will be until this is over and we see the number of "sign ups." correct?

Originally Posted by connielori (Post 369891)

UUUUmmmmmmm If I remember right......It was voted AGAINST the year prior. Do we just keep bringing it back up every year?...

Perhaps if they hadn't brought it up AGAIN there would be no Tulsa.

Originally Posted by Praxeas (Post 369896)

Well....you know how Pentecostals count heads right? 1,2,5,6,9.....

They also tend to count the same head twice....from a different angle

Originally Posted by connielori (Post 369891)

UUUUmmmmmmm If I remember right......It was voted AGAINST the year prior. Do we just keep bringing it back up every year?...

Perhaps if they hadn't brought it up AGAIN there would be no Tulsa.

Originally Posted by PastorD (Post 369909)

UUUUmmmmmmm, you don't remember right. It was sent to a committee for study in 06.


:TulsaNO:

Originally Posted by connielori (Post 369911)

AFTER it had been voted AGAINST at GC.....

Originally Posted by connielori (Post 369914)

"Simon Says copy me when i say ummmmmm" LOL

Originally Posted by connielori (Post 369830)

You obiviously don't know DR. W_________. He certainly doesn't have to be at the head of ANYTHING to have 'power'. Dr. W____________ is success personified. Take a trip to CA, and visit his church. Get an education on the growth and revival his church has experienced from his leadership....in a very small amount of time. Read a couple of his books. This is a GREAT man. A powerful man of God.....who needs validation from NO ONE.

Originally Posted by George (Post 369948)

NO. It was never brought to vote. California DS (at the time) asked to have it tabled and that is what happened. There was not a vote.

Originally Posted by George (Post 369958)

A man who convinced many to leave Michigan and follow him to California.

Originally Posted by George (Post 369958)

A man who convinced many to leave Michigan and follow him to California.

Originally Posted by NW Pastor (Post 369973)

I wonder how many members of The Rock in the past or currently once belonged to other churches in the Sacramento area?

Probably a lot. After all, NW is a great pastor no question about it.

Originally Posted by KarenJo (Post 369983)

I am sure there is a good number from other churches. NW is a good man. Very progressive in his Music, Web Site, etc. That's why I was surprised that he was a part of this.

Originally Posted by NW Pastor (Post 369993)

If some Tulsa attendees actually knew how "progressive" folks are at the Rock, not just in music but in dress, hairstyle, and fashion, and internet video (TV like) production they may think twice about becoming a part.

Not that all of these things are particularly wrong in my opinion, but they are certain to ruffle the feathers of many conservative men seeking solace from the soon to be apostate UPC.

Originally Posted by NW Pastor (Post 369879)

And he was not even at the Tampa conference to use his influence to defeat resolution 4. I wonder why? Perhaps if he had gone to Tampa, there would have been no Tulsa.

Originally Posted by connielori (Post 369830)

You obiviously don't know DR. W_________. He certainly doesn't have to be at the head of ANYTHING to have 'power'. Dr. W____________ is success personified. Take a trip to CA, and visit his church. Get an education on the growth and revival his church has experienced from his leadership....in a very small amount of time. Read a couple of his books. This is a GREAT man. A powerful man of God.....who needs validation from NO ONE.

Originally Posted by George (Post 369958)

A man who convinced many to leave Michigan and follow him to California.

Originally Posted by PastorD (Post 369966)

....door opens and stage left enters Barb.


:aaa :bolt

Originally Posted by Dan (Post 370033)

I have been UPC 54 years. I know enough and have seen enough to know what I am talking about. I have pastored people that Dr. W_______ pastored that can tell you some things first hand. Just seems to me that the spirit of the whole matter is WRONG!! Here is your cool aid. Drink it up now!

Originally Posted by IAintMovin (Post 370046)