I agree that my examples of hobbies were weak considering they have nothing to do with relationships, but I believe they still have merit into the conversation when one considers the overall point, and that being that we all have 'attractions' in our life and that some aren't necessarily a choice, but a preference.

I'll give you a wonderful example. I don't like macaroni and cheese. I detest the stuff. Not because I haven't tried it, because I have, but when I was young, a traumatic thing happened that turned me off forever.

Let me first say that children's taste in foods change as they age. This isn't genetic, nor is it a choice, but it happens for us all in one way or another. I didn't eat broccoli or shrimp until I was in my late teens, for instance.

Anyway, my mom was a parent that believed in us trying something once, but if we didn't like it, she didn't force us to eat it. We had several meals with both mac and cheese and corn....my brother liked the former but to this day won't eat the latter.

There was a lady who babysat us often and her oldest daughter and I were best friends for years. However, she couldn't stand me (most adults couldn't) and she was quite mean (however, we are great friends today....I consider her my adopted mom).

She made dinner one day and mac and cheese was part of the meal. Well, I informed her (I think I was 9) that I didn't eat that nasty stuff, so a spoonful was put on my plate.

I ate everything but the mac and cheese, but being raised in an era where your plate was cleaned, they were upset, and another spoonful was put on my plate. I couldn't leave until I ate it.

Well, I protested and each time, another spoonful was put on my plate. An hour and a half later, I had a large plate of this nasty stuff to eat. There was no mercy.

So, not having any other choice.....I picked up my spoon. I remember not even chewing, just putting it in and swallowing it quick. I was gagging the entire time, but there was no way I was vomited because I had no doubt that they would make me eat it again!!

This was also the days before microwaves, so it was cold. I still remember that taste and feeling as I type this out. It's funny now, but it was traumatic at the time.

My adopted parents and I laugh about it now, and they admitted they were wrong for doing that, and couldn't imagine doing that to their grandchildren, but the damage was done all the same. I have never done that to my children either.

Anyway, things that happen in our childhood affect us in our adult lives, and this includes relationships with others, whether it's friends, authority, family, or lovers.

I have not read the whole thread.

I skimmed this letter defending homosexuality and just quite stunned at the brazen nature of it all. Not surprised that the twisted could twist so well.

Homosexuality is a deviant act... often that is thrust upon children by molesters. They are "bent" this way, not because of birth, but because of abuse and / or deep spirtual problems.

If abuse is the cause, the result should be noticed for what it is ... perversion.

I looked at the website... and the pics of all the happy "gay" smiles enough to make one sick.

I agree. Another problem or question left undefined yet, what does it mean to be "natural".

How does one define what is natural for humans and what is un-natural? Should we not get back to what the bible says? I keep noticing that in this discussion both parties keep moving away from what the bible says to statistics, philosophical arguments and genetics....none of which can or have proven a thing here

Natural is that which is according to God's created design prior to it being corrupted as a result of Adam's sin.

Are you saying hormones are not genetic? Certainly I am misunderstanding you. Everything about our anatomic and physiological make up is rooted in our genes.

Is it? Are you saying you can prove there is a specific "puberty gene"?

Again, these arguments of yours are flawed. You're comparing apples to oranges. An attraction to a sport (a man-made game) cannot be compared to a sexual and emotional attraction to another human being (God-made being) because NOBODY has a "natural" attraction to any sport, food, color, etc. However, humans DO have a natural attraction to other human beings. Generally, men have a natural attraction to women and, generally, women have a natural attraction to men. What group of people are born with a natural attraction to a sport and is that sport incompatible with an attraction to the "opposite sport." Your comparing my attraction to men with an attraction to football. Would you compare YOUR attraction to men/women in the same way?

Certainly you have enough understanding of human genetics (including the epigenetic system) to understand that some genes are "activated" at birth and others are activated later on in life. This doesn't make their existence any less natural or genetic.

Secretion of GnRH is what activates the production of the hormones that regulate puberty. Though it is secreted at different times for different people (sometimes based on genetic interactions with the environment) it is, nonetheless, a natural and genetically influenced process.

If puberty is not genetically influenced, then may I ask for your explanation for it?

I love and respect the Bible but it is NOT a scientific book. A true and honest study of God's creation can also reveal Divine Truths. Look at the history of the Church regarding Galileo's scientific theory that the sun was stationary. The Church used Scripture to claim his teachings as heresy and, as a result of his beliefs, was imprisoned by the Church.

It was later proven, scientifically, that his theories were in fact true. It wasn't until 1992 (some 350 years after his death) that the Church offered an apology for their actions against Galileo.

Let's not be too quick to discount science.

I never said the bible is our science book.....sigh

If you all want to start a thread on science and genetics, go for it. But whether or not homosexuality is "ok" or a sin is NOT going to be found in ANY science book based on science or genetics, nor has there been any proof found by science that validates homosexuality

There's a difference between saying something is "genetically influenced" (influenced by genes) and saying something is "genetic" (there's a specific gene that directly causes it). Whether accurate or not, for most folks when you say something is genetic, they're thinking "born with it."

Regardless, there is no direct link between a specific gene or group of genes and sexual "orientation."

God's word is absolute truth (people's interpretations of it can often be wrong but that doesn't negate the absolute truth of God's word). If anything contradicts God's word then it is not God's word that is wrong but that which contradicts.

I discount anything coming from humans that tries to elevate itself to the level of absolute truth or that people elevate to a level equal to or above the absolute truth of God and His word. You and nearly everyone else just automatically accepts so-called "science" as if it was absolute truth ("If science says it then it must be so"; never mind that science is in a constant state of change as one theory replaces another).

With all due respect, if this is going to become a place where gay "preachers" get to defend and promote their abominations, it is going to lose some appeal for me.

This is ridiculous and disgusting.

No, hormones aren't genetically determined in the familial sense.

And no, not everything physiological is rooted in your genes, or identical twins would look exactly alike in all ways, including wrinkles, weight, and fingerprints.

My argument is flawed but you want to discuss this issue based on a hopeful 'what if'. No thanks.

With all due respect, we moved it here so you would not have to bother with.

While you look at it as a place where gay preachers get to defend and promote WE look at it as a place where we get to REFUTE them. Thank you. Please ignore this thread

And, some of us pray, a place where God will speak to the heart of a man (brad) who is clearly deceived by the lies of gay theology and bring him to the place of repentance.

Prax,

Shallow dweeb that I am, I venture timidly over into the "Deep Waters" section every now and then to partake of the wisdom and enlightenment that flows like water from the Intelligentsia..

So moving it here doesn't exactly keep anybody from bumping into it. I don't know why you would think that it would.

Having said that, it will be easy enough to ignore the thread.

I simply expressed an opinion, an unpopular one it seems. We still get to do that around these here parts, don't we?

I guess I need to know if you are wearing your admin hat or your foil hat currently, so that I can adjust the verbiage accordingly.:)

At any rate, if these conversations are what trips your trigger, be my guest.

But keep in mind that you are talking to a man who walked away from truth for perversion and deception of the most abominable kind, and who has embraced about as wicked and depraved a heresy as hell ever concocted.

The good Apostle Paul said a heretic who didn't turn it around after the second admonition was to be rejected.

How many admonitions are you all up to now?

BTW, and I will try to make this my last post on this womder of a thread, you might go back and re-read Romans 1 before you get too excited about your outreach efforts here.

Unrepentant gays are almost always recruiting when they show up at church.

It may or may not be the same here, but sympathy and agreement is what they are after at the very least.

I believe the admin team needs to take a look at the policy on this if they haven't already.

If you allow this, there will be more show up, and you are going to very likely start something you don't want to have around here.

While I don't mind one being here to discuss the issue, I agree that someone should be done if his friends join up to discuss it as well.

Maybe a special forum could be set up, call it "The Parlor" or something, where they could discuss these vital issues.

"The Lavender Lounge," maybe.

Or 'The Rainbow Room' or 'The Triangle Cafe'. Something along those lines...LOL!

ROFL!!!

Did you say that with a smile on your face??? :D

I actually laughed out loud.:)

"The Rainbow Room" is my favorite so far, with "The Lavender Lounge" running a close second.

I thought your ideas were great too.

Wish I had a picture of that laugh!

Each persons walk with God is as individual as our fingerprints. I came from a denomination that produced for God Cookie cutter Christians. Christians, who looked alike, talked alike, dressed alike, and walked alike. This comes from several different things. First a gross misunderstanding of God and second a gross misunderstanding of what a Christian is!

A Christian is, or is at least supposed to be a spirit led individual. I am not just talking about a baptism or a “spiritual experience”, but being spirit led. We unfortunately relate Christianity to deeds of the flesh, or lack thereof. What a person wears… What a person says… What a person does… But Christ was very clear that it went way beyond the carnal that we tend to latch on to and beat each other down with. In fact the same laws that we know to be fulfilled yet try to base our lives and the lives of others around, Christ Himself did not adhere to… Jesus Christ, God manifest in flesh, a man who did not completely keep the church’s law yet knew no sin, understood that the things of the flesh were just that… fleshly things for which there would be forgiveness. There were weightier things to be dealt with, and these things He tackled item by item though the church of His age sought to kill Him, because carnally He did not line up to what the current church just knew in their hearts to be right.

If we as Christians would study Christ. Not just His words and actions, but the things that He did not say, or do, for instance in John chapter 8: 1-11, a woman caught in the very act of adultery was dragged out to the streets as the law (given by God) mandated her to be stoned. They were only doing what they had believe that God had instructed them to do through the pen of Moses. This was written letter in the “word of God”. To not comply was a disobedience to “Gods word”, and yet instead of picking up stones as He should have done, Jesus bends down and draws in the sand, no one knows what he placed in the sand, but we do know that Jesus taught a valuable lesson to those around accusing her, the law points to the carnal, but a spirit led individual will look beyond the letter, and understand that the spirit behind the letter boasts of our reconciliation with God.

You will find over and over again as Jesus crossed the path of others, His response was not what the church had expected it to be. Whether the infraction involved sex (as in the case of the woman at the well, and the woman caught in adultery), or theft (one of his own disciples being crooked tax collector, or outright denial ( as was the case with Peter) Jesus handled them all in a spirit of reconciliation. The only people that cause his open harsh rebuke were those poor church leaders of the day that wore their religion on their sleeves and looked down on all the others as less than themselves. Self righteousness was Christ only enemy, and this because, He alone was the revealed righteousness of God, and he came to us to bring the same! The church needed to know that they had no righteousness or holiness outside of Christ.

The sad part is that now some 2000 years later we are still in this same place. Looking to the God of the letter instead of the spirit behind it. The church is still dragging its believers out to center court to be stoned. We are still looking to the carnal to Identify with one another when the word tells us that

2Co 5:16 Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer.
2Co 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.
2Co 5:18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation,
2Co 5:19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.



1Jo 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.
1Jo 4:2 By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God,
1Jo 4:3 and every spirit that does not confess that[1] Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.
1Jo 4:4 You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world.

It takes an act of the spirit of God to open your eyes even to the words shared with you above, so if you stand in disagreement with me, that is fine as It is God that is in control over what he reveals to you and I through His word. But as we are to regard no one according to the flesh, and every spirit that confesses Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, let us each be drawn to a common place, a place of reconciliation and love.

So regardless of sex, race, status, sexual orientation, let us not regard one another according to the flesh, but glorify God by walking in love which is the bond of perfection. Col 3:14

So finally… Gal 3:26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Coonskinner makes some valid points. I believe others have already been on this thread...

I would add that at the very least; there is a difference between talking about what the Word of God says and bringing one's personal feelings and life into the picture (sympathy vote).

Furthermore; there is a bright line in Scripture about not associating with those that claim to be brothers but commit fornication (which is likely just a step above attempting to persuade others that it is ok to do the same). :coffee2

Yes of course. I am not afraid to confront what I believe is false doctrine and lies. Truth should not be afraid to confront issues

It's not just an individual, it's an issue. I believe issues like this become so big because the church would rather bury it's head than confront them head on.

We do the same things with other issues like Trinity etc etc.

I have attempted to address that point and several times now have steered the topic or tried, back to the scriptures.

I may, after this, put my foot down to insist this remain a biblical discussion. We really do not want a promotion of the gay lifestyle or any perceived agenda. Let it be based on what the bible says and let it remain there.

As an admin, consider that a note to all

GESTAPO

FYI - Genes interact with environment. That doesn't make them any less genetic.

And exactly how do genes interact with environment? Give an example, please.

What would Jesus say?

I think at this point I will do you all a favor and simply bow out. ****edited out****

The brad person is explaining to us how homosexuality is ok with God.

Kind of sounding more like solicitation now... :telephone