Originally Posted by IAintMovin (Post 370046)

Originally Posted by Dan (Post 370071)

Did not have to be at the meeting. I believe that the men that started the WPF are wrong. You will see when all the dust settles that it is not as it seems. The motive, the way they went about it all, and the dishonesty is very obvious. I could tell you some things I know first hand about some that are involved with the leadership roles of WPF (I am talking about things that have happened in the last 30 days), but I will refrain. You may have felt good there, but that does mean it is right! We are obviously reliving the day of the time of the judges.....When every man did that which was right in his own eyes. It is very easy to declare you are taking the high road publicly and behind closed doors causing division. Maybe we need a good old baptism of "the decerning of spirits.

Just my thoughts.

Originally Posted by CC1 (Post 370073)

Perhaps if we had fowarded them one of your vacation photos with you in one of those tropical short sleeve shirts your welcome would have been less effusive! LOL!!! (lucky for you I think those were posted back on the now defunct NFCF)

Originally Posted by IAintMovin (Post 370082)

Originally Posted by IAintMovin (Post 370080)

Originally Posted by rgcraig (Post 370084)

I think you missed CC1's sense of humor in his post.

Originally Posted by Dan (Post 370088)

I am not talking about just the two days in Tulsa....I am talking about the whole picture in general. I too know those in leadership and have for many years. Some have been my dear friends, but that does not make them right. I don't have to be at their meeting or hear any one of them preach to know that what they are doing is WRONG. I did not go because my General Superintendent asked us not to go. Cancelled my reservations. Are you UPC? just wondering.

If they want to start another organization.....they don't need to try to split the UPC to do it. I wonder how many would have showed up if they would not have used the UPC mailing list? I will leave it at that.

Originally Posted by IAintMovin (Post 370093)

Originally Posted by Sacerdotal (Post 370099)

Sounds like some are upset they didn't get a position offered to them.

Originally Posted by RevBuddy (Post 370266)

Now we have the WPF Apologists with us always...just like the poor...

:TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO:

Originally Posted by IAintMovin (Post 370082)

Originally Posted by NW Pastor (Post 369775)

Does anyone on this forum believe for one minute that there will not be a new, totally separate organization which will arise from the WPF "fellowship"? All of this blather over who said what when gets a little tiresome. There will be a separation. Period.

Originally Posted by RevBuddy (Post 369787)

PP and NW Pastor...

You both are EXACTLY CORRECT...no question.

:TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO:

Originally Posted by NW Pastor (Post 369815)

This is why the righteous indignation of the Tulsa defenders on this forum rings so hollow. They all know there will be a real and painful splintering of organizational bonds, regardless of all public declarations or lack thereof by the Tulsa founders.

Originally Posted by pelathais (Post 369836)

The organizers are playing a careful game. They believe that they stand to gain a lot so they're careful with their words. Also, nothing exists in spoken words the way it appears on paper.

For example, no one's name was used without their permission. Period. That was checked and rechecked and no one was found to have slipped through. Yet when KH's letter is brought up where he describes people who said that their names were used without permission - does a contradiction exist? No! It's just a matter of timing and a misunderstanding. KH is "correct," but at the same time "mistaken."

Also, when the claims that "no organization was being formed" were being thrown around after Tampa, angry words were said to the skeptics. When the Bible quizzing site was put up, those angry words ceased and a wait-and-see attitude developed. Then when a full blown bureaucracy was revealed we were told that this was the plan all along. You were mistaken to have said, "No new organization was being formed."

The WPF web site was "hacked" when links to publically accessible pages were posted here. Apparently Google was involved in the "hacking" because the webmasters were careful to have submitted their brand new pages to the search engine for public indexing. Since when is submitting your own public web pages to Google so that anyone in the world can find them called "privacy?" But that's what the Tulsa organizers want us to believe.

Questions arose about the ethics of the recruiting methods. The UPCI mailing list was and then wasn't, and then was obtained for purposes of recruitment. Somehow WEC either waived all their standard procedures for the use of this list or ethics don't really apply when WEC is the "backslidden" party.

Using the UPC to split itself is "okay" because "no new organization was being formed." But then when the organization is formed, the participants all boast about the fine spirit in which this was done.

And we are called upon to applaud this work? Okay. I applaud. If they can keep it up for another year I will stand and applaud. But I would hope that they would blush before then.

Originally Posted by pelathais (Post 369836)

The organizers are playing a careful game. They believe that they stand to gain a lot so they're careful with their words. Also, nothing exists in spoken words the way it appears on paper.

For example, no one's name was used without their permission. Period. That was checked and rechecked and no one was found to have slipped through. Yet when KH's letter is brought up where he describes people who said that their names were used without permission - does a contradiction exist? No! It's just a matter of timing and a misunderstanding. KH is "correct," but at the same time "mistaken."

Also, when the claims that "no organization was being formed" were being thrown around after Tampa, angry words were said to the skeptics. When the Bible quizzing site was put up, those angry words ceased and a wait-and-see attitude developed. Then when a full blown bureaucracy was revealed we were told that this was the plan all along. You were mistaken to have said, "No new organization was being formed."

The WPF web site was "hacked" when links to publically accessible pages were posted here. Apparently Google was involved in the "hacking" because the webmasters were careful to have submitted their brand new pages to the search engine for public indexing. Since when is submitting your own public web pages to Google so that anyone in the world can find them called "privacy?" But that's what the Tulsa organizers want us to believe.

Questions arose about the ethics of the recruiting methods. The UPCI mailing list was and then wasn't, and then was obtained for purposes of recruitment. Somehow WEC either waived all their standard procedures for the use of this list or ethics don't really apply when WEC is the "backslidden" party.

Using the UPC to split itself is "okay" because "no new organization was being formed." But then when the organization is formed, the participants all boast about the fine spirit in which this was done.

And we are called upon to applaud this work? Okay. I applaud. If they can keep it up for another year I will stand and applaud. But I would hope that they would blush before then.

Originally Posted by Barb (Post 370043)

Here I am...LOL!!

Listen, George, you may think you know the facts here, but trust me...you do NOT!!

Here are the facts for the record:

Following the GC of 1979, Bro. NJ Wilson was asked by the powers that be over Harvest Time to become the main HT speaker.

Though Bro. Urshan had been the speaker and yet pastored, 'they' had made the decision that the new speaker not pastor as to devote his time to the broadcast and all that it involved.

Bro. W felt it was the will of God for he and his family at the time and resigned in October of that year...we (the members of South Flint Tabernacle) were devastated.

Bro. & Sis. W stayed in St. Louis about a year when he felt the call to Sacramento.

He did NOT convince anyone to move to CA...no not one!!

Several families did, but not by his urging.

Following his resignation from SFT, I was the first to leave, opting to align with the COOLJC for almost 24 years.

For me, as well as those who moved to CA and TX, the reasons we left were personal.

Those who moved bag and baggage to CA did so because they wanted to continue to sit under his ministry.

Though I disagree with him on many issues, the WPF being one of them, if he were here now, he would STILL be my pastor.

Some people just generate that kind of respect, and for the bystander, it is hard to understand, but I hope this will set your gift of suspicion to rest.

Originally Posted by Pastor Poster (Post 370388)

This is the best post I have seen since Tampa.

It accurately synopsizes events leading up to, during and immediately after the passing of resolution four.

Originally Posted by George (Post 370434)

Just as it has taken all this time to get to Tulsa from Houston to organize the WPF, it took time for people to sell and relocate. NW is a very smart man. He knew what he was doing. Saving enough time to get everything in place for starting a church in California. Obviously he influenced those people to leave Michigan and follow.

Originally Posted by MikeinAR (Post 370360)

BroGibs brings up what seems to be the point of most pertinence to me. Where does this go from here? To just an outside observer like myself the signals from the Tulsa meeting are mixed and double minded at best. At the one hand, it seems the Tulsa-nites aren't really prepared to make the leap and disassociate themselves with the UPCI, but are inclined to offer local certifications to minister within the WPF.

Surely they don't intend to operate as the WPF, all the while trying to operate within the UPCI as well. Rational men would agree there's no need for the WPF if they intend on remaining in the UPCI.

Originally Posted by CC1 (Post 370476)

I think the organizers and a significant number of those attending the first Tulsa meeting are not only prepared but are eager to make the leap to disassociate themselves from the UPC.

These are folks who by the very nature of their conservative beliefs have a "holier than thou" perspective. Their disdain for what they perceive as "liberalness in the UPC has been growing for years.

They discovered they did not have the number of votes to gain power to stop all the things that bother them like the use of video, lighting, smoke, music that is not Southern Gospel, etc.

Their only alternative was to do their own thing and that they have done. I am sure many from pure motives and some from deep seated resentment over having come close but never having attained position and power in the UPC.

Originally Posted by Parkbench (Post 370492)

Come summer time, realization that much of the Tusla sound was of brass and tinkling cymbals; will create a longing in the hearts of some who went there to return to a good old UPC Camp meeting.

Many a church will then find their old pastor showing forth a more repentant, understanding, humble and compasssionate heart............after he sees the error of Tulsa.

Originally Posted by Parkbench (Post 370492)

Come summer time, realization that much of the Tusla sound was of brass and tinkling cymbals; will create a longing in the hearts of some who went there to return to a good old UPC Camp meeting.

Many a church will then find their old pastor showing forth a more repentant, understanding, humble and compasssionate heart............after he sees the error of Tulsa.

Originally Posted by NW Pastor (Post 370532)

There are a lot of lone wolves out there.

I have always found it interesting that those that demand such blind devotion and submission from saints have such a difficult time submitting to any authority other than their own. Or to their wife!

Originally Posted by Barb (Post 370043)

Here I am...LOL!!

Listen, George, you may think you know the facts here, but trust me...you do NOT!!

Here are the facts for the record:

Following the GC of 1979, Bro. NJ Wilson was asked by the powers that be over Harvest Time to become the main HT speaker.

Though Bro. Urshan had been the speaker and yet pastored, 'they' had made the decision that the new speaker not pastor as to devote his time to the broadcast and all that it involved.

Bro. W felt it was the will of God for he and his family at the time and resigned in October of that year...we (the members of South Flint Tabernacle) were devastated.

Bro. & Sis. W stayed in St. Louis about a year when he felt the call to Sacramento.

He did NOT convince anyone to move to CA...no not one!!

Several families did, but not by his urging.

Following his resignation from SFT, I was the first to leave, opting to align with the COOLJC for almost 24 years.

For me, as well as those who moved to CA and TX, the reasons we left were personal.

Those who moved bag and baggage to CA did so because they wanted to continue to sit under his ministry.

Though I disagree with him on many issues, the WPF being one of them, if he were here now, he would STILL be my pastor.

Some people just generate that kind of respect, and for the bystander, it is hard to understand, but I hope this will set your gift of suspicion to rest.

Originally Posted by George (Post 370434)

Just as it has taken all this time to get to Tulsa from Houston to organize the WPF, it took time for people to sell and relocate. NW is a very smart man. He knew what he was doing. Saving enough time to get everything in place for starting a church in California. Obviously he influenced those people to leave Michigan and follow.

Originally Posted by Barb (Post 370458)

And you were there, sir?!

How many of those people do you PERSONALLY know?!

How many have you broken bread with?!

Trust me that I know whereof I speak...it didn't happen.

Originally Posted by BroGibs (Post 370546)

NW, they have a lot of Insecurities! they need that control!!!

Originally Posted by The Dean (Post 370685)

I find it unfortunate that so many accusations are being made against N. Wilson when some of those who were DIRECTLY INVOLVED are here refuting their unfounded suppositions.

Amazingly, it hasn't seemed to stop them.

Originally Posted by Barb (Post 370458)

And you were there, sir?!

How many of those people do you PERSONALLY know?!

How many have you broken bread with?!

Trust me that I know whereof I speak...it didn't happen.

Originally Posted by NW Pastor (Post 370688)

Even the apostle Paul, who was instructed by Jesus in the desert and had fabulous revelations about the Gentile Revival, submitted himself to Elders in Jerusalem. It would have been very easy for such a gifted and charismatic theologean, who had grave differances of opinion over "holiness" issues with Peter, to have taken "his" gentile churches and formed his own "fellowship".

He did not. He allowed his revelations and theologies to be tested and modified by the leadership body of elders. Thus the church remained unified and grew, even in the onslaught of grave political and religious persecution.

I wonder which elders the Tulsa group submits to? Perhaps you reach an age where you become your own elder. Wow!

Originally Posted by The Dean (Post 370692)

To answer your question, EVERYONE that signs up as a member of their fellowship are required to have THREE names of ministers to whom they are accountable and answer to on their application - one being their Pastor - and that includes the original 6.

Wasn't that easy?