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-   -   Jesus forsaken? (https://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?t=22000)

TK Burk 01-24-2009 11:23 PM
Re: Jesus forsaken?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume (Post 690807)
I did answer you. :)

Check again. Jesus PRACTICALLY, for all intents and purposes, experienced spiritual death. Make that more than what it should be. That is ok. Whatever. I believe Jesus experienced spiritual death when he took my sins or else He did not take my sins.
What? So He did not ACTUALLY die spiritually? But you said...

Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume (Post 690765)
The suffering on the cross was involved when Jesus cried about forsakenness. He felt what we feel in spiritual death's state of the sinner. He was not pretending. To say He pretended is to diminish the full brunt of the cross. If He felt pressured in the Garden when praying with sweat of blood, it was nothing compared to what He felt the moment He uttered this cry just before His death. He felt the very same thing a sinner feels who is lost and in utter depravity knowing such a person has no God. But God was within Him fully as ever.
So which is it? Was he "PRACTICALLY" dead spiritually, or was he ACTUALLY dead spiritually?

Your posts keep jumping back and forth so it is hard to know for sure which you are claiming.

mfblume 01-24-2009 11:28 PM
Re: Jesus forsaken?
 
Bro Burk you are not following my posts properly perhaps due to my lack of clarification. I was referring to His cry of forsakenness. I believe it was expressing what He felt. He did not pretend those words when he said them, nor did He merely quote them. To say he pretended feeling forsakenness is error.

What do you believe about the cry? Did He express what he felt? Did he merely quote scripture? What do you believe so I can contrast it from my beliefs more easily, for if you think he did not spiritually die in this manner, I disagree with your conclusions. The easier way to express myself more clearly is to know here you are coming from.

So please answer my questions so I can form a better response to you. Thanks!

TK Burk 01-24-2009 11:35 PM
Re: Jesus forsaken?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume (Post 690820)
What do you believe about the cry? Did He express what he felt? Did he merely quote scripture? What do you believe so I can contrast it from my beliefs more easily, for if you think he did not spiritually die in this manner, I disagree with your conclusions. The easier way to express myself more clearly is to know here you are coming from.
We started this conversation about a question of seperation. You had said Jesus died spiritually. I had mentioned how that would make Him either not God, or another God. Now you are asking me about what He said on the cross? Well, I can tell you one thing for sure; He was NOT calling out to another God. Like I said before: I believe in One God. I do not believe in separate persons or separate Gods. I also do not believe that Jesus was/is imperfect. Nor do I believe that He suffered schizophrenia or dissociative identity disorder.

What you must remember is that Jesus had to fulfill ALL THINGS. This included that which He was said to do while on the cross. To suggest He called out to someone else begs the question who that someone else would be.

May the One True God bless you! ;)

Evang.Benincasa 01-24-2009 11:37 PM
Re: Jesus forsaken?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume (Post 690820)
Bro Burk you are not following my posts properly perhaps due to my lack of clarification. I was referring to His cry of forsakenness. I believe it was expressing what He felt. He did not pretend those words when he said them, nor did He merely quote them. To say he pretended feeling forsakenness is error.

What do you believe about the cry? Did He express what he felt? Did he merely quote scripture? What do you believe so I can contrast it from my beliefs more easily, for if you think he did not spiritually die in this manner, I disagree with your conclusions. The easier way to express myself more clearly is to know here you are coming from.

So please answer my questions so I can form a better response to you. Thanks!
Do you teach that the Father hid His face from Jesus, while Jesus was dying on the cross?

In Jesus name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com

mfblume 01-24-2009 11:39 PM
Re: Jesus forsaken?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TK Burk (Post 690822)
We started this conversation about a question of seperation. You had said Jesus died spiritually. I had mentioned how that would make Him either not God, or another God. Now you are asking me about what He said on the cross? Well, I can tell you one thing for sure; He was NOT calling out to another God.
Of course not. I knew you did not beleive that. lol

The thread is all about what Jesus cried about when He spoke of being forsaken.

Quote:
Like I said before: I believe in One God. I do not believe in separate persons or separate Gods. I also do not believe that Jesus was/is imperfect. Nor do I believe that He suffered schizophrenia or dissociative identity disorder.
Amen. I would not even question you about that. I only wonder why you question me about that. I agree with you.

Quote:
What you must remember is that Jesus had to fulfill ALL THINGS. This included that which He was said to do while on the cross. To suggest He called out to someone else begs the question who that someone else would be.
HUMANITY called out to DEITY as much as Son prayed to Father. You DO believe Jesus as SON spoke to Father, and it was not just a charade, do you?

Quote:
May the One True God bless you! ;)
You, too!

Please be a bit more specific. Are you saying Jesus fulfilled scripture by merely quoting a statement that did not express what He literally felt?

Evang.Benincasa 01-24-2009 11:44 PM
Re: Jesus forsaken?
 
Brother Blume was Jesus praying to another person in the godhead?

TK Burk 01-24-2009 11:45 PM
Re: Jesus forsaken?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume (Post 690825)
Please be a bit more specific. Are you saying Jesus fulfilled scripture by merely quoting a statement that did not express what He literally felt?

You don't believe He did this? Then please reconcile this:

Joh 19:28-30
(28) After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the Scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.
(29) Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a sponge with vinegar, and put it upon hyssop, and put it to his mouth.
(30) When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

Evang.Benincasa 01-24-2009 11:45 PM
Re: Jesus forsaken?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TK Burk (Post 690829)
You don't believe He did this? Then please reconcile this:

Joh 19:28-30
(28) After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the Scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.
(29) Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a sponge with vinegar, and put it upon hyssop, and put it to his mouth.
(30) When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
Amen :thumbsup

mfblume 01-24-2009 11:49 PM
Re: Jesus forsaken?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TK Burk (Post 690829)
You don't believe He did this? Then please reconcile this:

Joh 19:28-30
(28) After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the Scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.
(29) Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a sponge with vinegar, and put it upon hyssop, and put it to his mouth.
(30) When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.
Of course he fulfilled scripture saying the very thing the scripture said He would say. But I ALSO believe He said them because He actually felt what He said. He said such statements foretold of Him due to actually THIRSTING and expressing that. He was not lying about what He said, as though He merely had to say that, but not from expresssion of it actually being what He felt. Same with his statement about being forsaken. Do you not believe He felt forsaken, but merely lied and simply said it to be able to say He fulfilled the scripture?

Come on, Bro Benincasa, say amen to my words, too. :)

TK Burk 01-24-2009 11:57 PM
Re: Jesus forsaken?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume (Post 690832)
Of course he fulfilled scripture saying the very thing the scripture said He would say. But I ALSO believe He said them because He actually felt what He said. He said such statements foretold of Him due to actually THIRSTING and expressing that. He was not lying about what He said, as though He merely had to say that, but not from expresssion of it actually being what He felt. Same with his statement about being forsaken. Do you not believe He felt forsaken, but merely lied and simply said it to be able to say He fulfilled the scripture?
Lying? Uhm, NO. Fulfilling? YES!!

Did Jesus sin? Was He lying by saying He needed baptized of John?

Mat 3:14-15
(14) But John forbade him, saying, I have need to be baptized of thee, and comest thou to me?
(15) And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfill all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

I think it is clear that Jesus was baptized because it was what He was to do. Therefore, it wasn't that Jesus felt the need, but that the Bible foretold He would be baptized, hence He was.

Simple? :thumbsup


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