Re: This Is Why Non-Christians Hate Us
 

Newp! :shockamoo

Believe me, when I calculate the logistics of putting every animal on earth, male and female on a boat for 40 days, with the food stored up for them, most of them needing different kinds of food, what sounded great in Sunday School, suddenly makes me say, "Whew."

And then the whole make-a-deal-with-the-devil-to-torture-Job thing freezes my brain. I don't deny the struggle.

Re: This Is Why Non-Christians Hate Us
 

I'll confess to liking the idea that some have that the story of Job is a parable or allegory. I, too, have always struggled with the idea of God torturing someone just to prove that they love Him.

Re: This Is Why Non-Christians Hate Us
 

I really, really, really, really hope it's an allegory! :D And I don't eliminate the possibility that other stories......

Nope. I said I wasn't gonna say it! :toofunny

Re: This Is Why Non-Christians Hate Us
 

I agree. Reading opinions though, it seems this story, the oldest in the Bible, is believed to be true because of some of the detailed particulars.

There is some good writing concerning the Book of Job, also a huge stumbling block for me. Some of our hang-ups are how we "see."

Re: This Is Why Non-Christians Hate Us
 

Abraham being commanded to put his son on an altar and kill him. The list can keep going. :shockamoo

Re: This Is Why Non-Christians Hate Us
 

NoW, but you are reading to the OT with a NT, Western mind. Even still, it's hard to understand, and I admit that, but to dismiss everything that's hard to understand as symbolic and fictional can really have a negative trend.

Here's what one writer said about Abraham offering his son:

"Now it came about after these things, that God tested Abraham, and said to him, Abraham!' And he said, 'Here I am.' 2 And He said, 'Take now your son, your only son, whom you love, Isaac, and go to the land of Moriah; and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I will tell you,'"(Gen. 22:1-2).
God told Abraham to kill his son Isaac because their actions are pointing ahead to the person of Christ in a typology of the true sacrifice. First of all, God says to Abraham to take his only son. But, we know that 13 years earlier Ishmael had been born to Abraham. So why would God call Isaac the only son? The answer becomes clear when we see what the Scriptures teach.

When Jesus was having a dialogue with the Jews, they accused him of being demon possessed. Jesus said, “Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.” 57 The Jews therefore said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” 58 Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.” (John 8:56-58). (Note that Jesus claimed divinity by referencing the divine name "I AM", see Exodus 3:14). Now, Jesus said that Abraham saw his day. What did Jesus mean by this? The answer is found in the following chart.

ISAAC
Genesis
JESUS
Gospels
Only begotten Son Gen. 22:2 John 3:16
Offered on a mountain, hill Gen. 22:2 Matt. 21:10
Took donkey to place of sacrifice Gen. 22:3 Matt. 21:2-11
Two men went with him Gen. 22:3 Mark 15:27; Luke 23:33
Three day journey. Jesus: three days in the grave Gen. 22:4 Luke 24:13-21
Son carried wood on his back up hill Gen. 22:6 John 19:17
God will provide for Himself the lamb Gen. 22:8 John 1:29
Son was offered on the wood Gen. 22:9 Luke 23:33
Ram in thicket of thorns, crown of thorns Gen. 22:13 John 19:2
The seed will be multiplied Gen. 22:17 John 1:12; Isaiah 53:10
Abraham went down. Son didn't. Isaac is "not mentioned" Gen. 22:19 Luke 23:46
Servant, gets bride for son Gen. 24:1-4 Eph. 5:22-32; Rev. 21:2,9; 22:17
The bride was a beautiful virgin Gen. 24:16 2 Cor. 11:2
Servant offered ten gifts to bride Gen. 22:10 Rom. 6:23; 12; 1 Cor. 12

Let's examine the chart. Both Isaac and Jesus are called the only begotten son. Of course Abraham knew he had a son named Ishmael. But it was not Ishmael who was the son of the promised covenant; it was Isaac, (Gen. 17:19). That is why God called Isaac Abraham's only son. Plus, Isaac was representing the future Messiah Jesus was also called the only begotten son. Also, both Jesus and Isaac were offered on a hill and most scholars that I have read agree that it was the very same hill upon which they were both offered, though around 1800 years apart.

If you examine the chart you can see that there is a very close parallel between the sacrifice of Isaac and the sacrifice of Jesus. Furthermore, you should be able to see that Abraham represented God the Father. Isaac represented God the Son. And the servant represented the God the Holy Spirit. The sacrifice of Christ was typified in the sacrifice of Isaac.

So, why did Abraham offer his son Isaac? He did so out of obedience, believing that God could raise him from the dead (Heb. 11:19), and also in his obedience he acted out the true sacrifice of the true only begotten son, Jesus.

Re: This Is Why Non-Christians Hate Us
 

Buncha doubting Thomases.

:toofunny

Re: This Is Why Non-Christians Hate Us
 

Glad to hear you say that. One of my many struggles are those who refuse to admit the struggle! :lol When some of these stories are just blindly defended without any consideration to the logistics, to me it just takes away more credibility from the story. At the same time, for me anyway, it doesn't cause me to lose any faith in God. I know it does for Timmy and I don't condemn him for that and I'm not saying I'm better. If Timmy ends up being the one that's right, I'm not gonna be mad. Or if Crakjak is right and everyone is going to heaven, I won't be mad about that either.

I'm following God, through Jesus Christ, to the best of my understanding and as I feel His direction through the Holy Spirit. It might sound like walking the fence, but I can't deny the struggle with some of these stories.

Re: This Is Why Non-Christians Hate Us
 

You are absolutely correct. I'm looking at Abraham, Sodom, The Flood, from the viewpoint of NT grace. I don't deny that. But then there's Acts 5. Ugh.

So yeah, I get what you're saying. At some point, God may thump me on the head and say, "Shut up, boy." I wouldn't blame Him! :lol

Re: This Is Why Non-Christians Hate Us
 

Problem with seeing Job as an allegory:

Eze 14:14 (compare Eze 14:16, 20) speaks of "Job" in conjunction with "Noah and Daniel," real persons. St. James (Jas 5:11) also refers to Job as an example of "patience," which he would not have been likely to do had Job been only a fictitious person. Also the names of persons and places are specified with a particularity not to be looked for in an allegory. As to the exact doubling of his possessions after his restoration, no doubt the round number is given for the exact number, as the latter approached near the former; this is often done in undoubtedly historical books. As to the studied number and form of the speeches, it seems likely that the arguments were substantially those which appear in the book, but that the studied and poetic form was given by Job himself, guided by the Holy Spirit. He lived one hundred and forty years after his trials, and nothing would be more natural than that he should, at his leisure, mould into a perfect form the arguments used in the momentous debate, for the instruction of the Church in all ages. Probably, too, the debate itself occupied several sittings; and the number of speeches assigned to each was arranged by preconcerted agreement, and each was allowed the interval of a day or more to prepare carefully his speech and replies; this will account for the speakers bringing forward their arguments in regular series, no one speaking out of his turn. As to the name Job -- repentance (supposing the derivation correct) -- it was common in old times to give a name from circumstances which occurred at an advanced period of life, and this is no argument against the reality of the person.

That said, I think one could really argue for Job being an allegory, though it was accepted among the Jews' sacred stories -- the oldest, and whose author is unknown. There are so many good principles we take from Job, but the huge stumbling block of God making a deal with the Accuser (some believe this was an angel assigned to tempt, afflict God's people, not Lucifer) to "prove" something to him. The only way around that is to, in fact, see the Satan here as a courtly accuser and not the Devil.