Re: Pros/Cons of the Three-step doctrine
 

I am saying NOT ONE person from Pentecost UNTIL the Lord comes does NOT have remission of sins without being baptized in Jesus Name. Yes that is what I am saying.:thumbsup

Re: Pros/Cons of the Three-step doctrine
 

Every action their is in the third person

be baptized
having his name invoked see Acts 15:17, James 2:7.

Baptism in water is where it occurs the calling of the Name invokes the power of the blood that remits sins.

Re: Pros/Cons of the Three-step doctrine
 

Thank you for not saying what most people say on this topic: that Pharaoh hardened his own heart first! Unless all the English translations I've ever read are terribly wrong (Nahkoe, where are you? ;)), the Bible doesn't say that. In fact, it's very explicit even in talking about why God "had to" do the hardening: if He hadn't, Pharaoh would have said yes! And that wasn't God's plan! God had to make Pharaoh say no, so He could prove that He could do lots of amazing things. He wanted to make a name for Himself. That's what it says.

Furthermore, Moses had to lie, per God's instructions, in order for Pharaoh's "no" to ostensibly deserve such horrible punishments. If Moses had told him the true plan, for his people to leave forever, Pharaoh saying no to that request would seem quite reasonable. So, instead, Moses asked to go on a 3-day journey into the wilderness to offer sacrifices. The obvious implication is that they'd be back in 6 days or so. This is underscored by Pharaoh's and Moses's negotiating whether to leave the old folks behind, etc. Now it seems like Pharaoh is being unreasonable, hence the plagues aren't quite so insanely over to top. (Never mind that is was the people, not just Pharaoh, that took the brunt of the punishment.)

Now who would ever do such a horrible thing? :whistle

Actually, I do not. I question the accuracy of the account in Exodus. The most likely explanation, if the story is based on true events, is that some natural plagues hit Egypt in fairly quick succession (there are theories involving algae in the river etc.), and someone made up a fable (complete with a moral: don't mess with God's people!) to explain it.

So, everything He is ever purported to have done is, by definition, just and true. It doesn't matter how horrible a thing it is -- tell someone to kill his own son only to stop his hand at the last second, command His army to slaughter entire populations except for the virgin girls (you can keep them for yourselves, fellas!), burn billions of people for the "sin" of not believing certain people (and guessing correctly which people to believe) in what they say about God's plan for man (or for not even being lucky enough to have heard that plan!), not healing someone if they haven't dotted every i and crossed every t in the prerequisites, etc.

To believe that God is just no matter what He does is pointless. There is no way He could negate the claim, even if He tried!

Re: Pros/Cons of the Three-step doctrine
 

WRONG Pharoah hardened his own heart then God hardened his heart. Did God KNOW what would happen absolutely. Did He MAKE him do it absolutely NOT!
Consider this the hardening of Pharoah did NOT make him wicked he was already wicked however Pharoah's choices made him the canidate God needed for His purpose thus after Pharoah's rejection then he himself became rejected and used for God's glory.

Re: Pros/Cons of the Three-step doctrine
 

A few times, in the course of the plagues, we read that Pharaoh hardened his own heart. Usually not, and not the first few times. And yes it does say that the reason God did this is so that Pharaoh would say no:

"but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go. "

"And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt."

"And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said."

"And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses."

"And the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh: for I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I might shew these my signs before him: And that thou mayest tell in the ears of thy son, and of thy son's son, what things I have wrought in Egypt, and my signs which I have done among them; that ye may know how that I am the LORD. "

"But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go."

"And Moses and Aaron did all these wonders before Pharaoh: and the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go out of his land."

Re: Pros/Cons of the Three-step doctrine
 

Romans 9:19 - 24 speak to this situation, though some may not like the implications of it, which again, makes me grateful for the Grace of God!



19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?




Timmy,
For the question as to how one can believe that GOD is JUST and RIGHTEOUS in ALL HE does, refer to verses 23 & 24 specifically, then read the rest of the chapter as St. Paul ties the Sovereignty of GOD into the SALVATION made available to the Gentiles, by faith!!

Re: Pros/Cons of the Three-step doctrine
 

Cool, God believes and has went about giving eternal torment to those who never had a choice in anything! :thumbsup

Re: Pros/Cons of the Three-step doctrine
 

That is exactly what I don't believe, Luke.

Re: Pros/Cons of the Three-step doctrine
 

Let's continue this all the way down to the thought process it is in that Free-will is a lie. We can't choose anything and are totaly depraved. We don't repent God does itfor us. We can't even believe but God forces faith down our throats and is basically him believing/having faith for us.

Re: Pros/Cons of the Three-step doctrine
 

Well Good! hmmm sure did not sound like it! Sounded like the sound off board of a Calvinist to me. Where you commenting to someone else who is a calvinist?