Originally Posted by Steve Epley (Post 370778)

Elder thank you. I did not go to Tulsa and have no intention of joining. But these men as great expense and cost to themselves have made this step. Only time will tell the outcome. I wish them well as I do the godly men in the UPC.

Originally Posted by Discerner (Post 370859)

How about Disingenuous.

Originally Posted by StMark (Post 370891)

Back on FCF about 2-3 years ago, I told everyone that there was a new organization secretly being discussed & planned.I was laughed to scorn because I didn't have"proof".I don't expect any apologizes from the naysayers who tried everything to make me look like a fool. Does anyone ever admit they were wrong in relation to anything that has to do with this topic?? That's almost a whole nother topic.

Know this, write it down this day that I told you. One day there is going to be something come out that is going to blow everyone away totally out of the water.Unfortunatley a lot of devestated lives. I am right about this you will see.
.

Originally Posted by TrmptPraise (Post 370890)

The only real important question is when will the Countdown to Branson thread start? :stirpot

Originally Posted by Felicity (Post 370887)

Well, the fact is ..... nothing can be done about what has been initiated. It has begun, it's a work in progress and time will tell what kind of work it will be.

Live and let live. :)

I just pray these men will continue to love one another and continue to fellowship one another, because it seems to me that the differences aren't so great that they should or need to prevent that. God often directs men to do things and take certain steps and go in directions that others looking on shake their head at.

I guess the best thing is to leave it to God to sort out all the motives and actions people take and the whys of what they do and the decisions they make and the directions they take. He'll reward and bless according to His good pleasure and according to righteous unclouded perfect judgment.

Nobody can say that they've never acted out of less than the best of motives. Nobody can confess to perfection in any area of their lives. So finger pointing and judging needs to be done carefully, particularly when it involves the work of God and men and women who have been called of God and set apart for His purpose.

The most important thing is that the Gospel continues to be preached and that lost souls are saved. That's the primary mission of the Church. We need to be reminded of that occasionally.

From the cheap seats ...... :)

Originally Posted by RevBuddy (Post 370873)

Elder:

I have absolutely said this is a control movement. And I will stick by that. However, at no time, have I commented on the presence of God or the lack thereof. Those who do are foolish...

If you must leave an organization, by all means, leave. Each and every one of us have that right to do so. My comments have addressed only the questionable ethics about the "ways and means" that these brethren have left. Remaining IN an organization while taking premediated action to bring about its hurt, using UPCI data while not obtaining the necessary approvals, fees, etc. and lastly, actively recruiting its membership by letter, personally or by surrogates.

Secondly, when this same resolution (essentially the same, I should say) was defeated at an earlier GC, would we expect and/or endorse similar action should it have been taken by UPCI ministers with the opposing view?

I would oppose on ethical grounds any similar actions, either from the left or the right of our organization. An organization founded on questionable personal or corporate behavior has for itself, an inauspicious start.

:TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO:

Originally Posted by Steve Epley (Post 370910)

I wish them the best it is not for me. The AMC is more to my liking.

Originally Posted by RevBuddy (Post 370895)

Felicity...

your words are very good...but please don't miss the point...spectators can comment on a baseball game EVEN IF they have never played baseball...political commentators can make judgments about the actions or behavior of politicians EVEN IF they have never run for office...

so, it is with us...yes, I am an imperfect individual with an imperfect ministry...I did not always pastor my church the way I should...but realizing my imperfection, it is still possible for me to comment on the behavior of these men WITHOUT impuning them personally...

the old adage has some applicability here...for us all

"If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen." And I still say,

:TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO:

Originally Posted by StMark (Post 370928)

I didn't know that AMC was an organization - is it ???

Originally Posted by RevBuddy (Post 370940)

If it's not, it's doing a great imitation.


:TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO:

Originally Posted by Felicity (Post 370937)

I get the point. LOL. :) I still think care needs to be taken.

if we're not careful we become guilty of doing the same things we judge others of doing and our attitudes and spirits get bent out of shape. Jesus' attitude and His instruction to His disciples was to "let them be".

The fact is that it hurts to see division take place. Sometimes it's a necessary hurt though. Other times it's simply a result of people getting caught up in politics and "issues".

We can still be "one" in the most important purpose of all which is to reach the lost with the Gospel and see lives transformed and saved from hell.

Pray about it. Lift your eyes from what you can see from the "natural viewpoint". Try to look at everything from God's point of view. If you do, you'll see little justification for judgmentalism and accusation.

God puts up with all of us. He loves us and is patient and merciful with us all, and like I say He's most concerned with souls being saved.

We get caught up in issues of pride and competition, carnal reasoning, and it sucks the spirit and life right out of us and then we wonder why there's so much barren-ness and so much unspirituality in our OWN ranks.

Pray for your brothers -- even those who have chosen to walk a different path. Let them know you love them and that you wish them the best. God will bless you for that and it will reap a good harvest.

It doesn't matter what others do. We're responsible for ourselves and no matter how others act we have a responsibility to keep our own attitudes and spirits right and to react in a right spirit, with kindness, God's love, self control and temperance which are ..... after all ....... the fruit of the Spirit.

:thumbsup

Originally Posted by RevBuddy (Post 370963)

Felicity...ok, I get it...I understand your position. I misunderstood...I thought we were trying to understand yours AND my position...


:TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO:

Originally Posted by CC1 (Post 370949)

Felicity,

Has the Tulsa Worldwide Holiness Movement Incorporated put any twists in you and TB's move back to the UPC?

Is the WWPF a viable alternative to the UPC for you?

Originally Posted by Felicity (Post 371013)

LOL. You're a nut. ;) :)

I always enjoy reading your comments and perspective.

Originally Posted by connielori (Post 368829)

I am from California, and can tell you first hand....*I refuse to go into details, (don't agree w/mud slinging) but we are ones that have looked for other alternatives. Not to shut anyone out....no one was excluded. Just HAD to. Drastic changes caused it.

Originally Posted by pelathais (Post 371034)

With respect, whenever I hear something like this I find that the "drastic changes" never even happened. Maybe you are sincere, but this just strikes me as the kind of "competitive holiness" that is so insidious.

This sounds like Steadfast's accusation about "UPC" homosexuals "shacking up without ever even backsliding." Didn't happen. Pure and simple.

In fact, the only instance of tolerating homosexuality within the UPC that I ever knew to exist involved an on-again-off-again "Tulsa Coordinator."

Once again we see the Tulsa apologists and their "great spirit" and just how they take the "high road." Innuedo, half-truths and outright fabrications.

They did this after Youth Congress and they did this after General Conference. Just because they managed to forgo the constant charater assination for a few hours last week they want us to believe their raqnt about their "pure motives" and "right spirit."

Originally Posted by Sunni (Post 370706)

Errr...my sunny side has dissolved...

I accept that many of you have dissenting opinions about Tulsa... I even enjoy reading the viewpoints sometimes of the intelligent or common sense posters for either side...In addition, I highly respect ministers who send their cards to Hazelwood and now also those who mail to Tulsa...

However, those who claim to know the hearts of the Tulsa organizers are wrong- you do not. Many of us, however, know some or all of the Tulsa 6... (However on a different scale than those who claim to be their friends and then proceed to demolish their characters- Or those who do not judge, but think they can speak for them because they preached for them, or they spoke with them one time, or et. etc. etc. etc.)

Many of the Tulsa six are beloved Men of God...for a reason. Some of us, including me, have often sat with them, laughed with them, and even been pastored by them... To some of you, that apparently makes me a spiritual sissie under the leadership of a legalistic dictator... anyway....

I can say this about one of them in particular- he loves souls more than anyone I have ever known...I am a Bible College grad, and have been under many ministers, but he has taught me more than anyone about sacrifice and love for the lost. He has mentored my husband as he first ventured into ministry, and he built a church in a city without truth...he is not the only one. You do not know all their sacrifices...you do not know their relationship with God, you do not know their motives, and you certainly do not know their hearts!

There are saints that read these words (the Tulsa 6 have seen many souls saved under their ministries- do you doubt that?) and hurt to see the motives of men questioned so acidly. These are men who heard the cry of a city and answered; who sacrificed and gave years of their lives in storefront churches, working alternate jobs, raising families where they knew so few, and living for the weekend when maybe the waitress they invited and then laid beside their bed and prayed for that night would show up and fill an empty chair... You did not see the tears in their eyes as she prayed through to the Holy Ghost, and you did not hear the sobbing of intercessory pastor when he saw souls slide...

Some of these men are pastoring very obviously successful churches- how sad that you think that can be done by men who 'only desire power and prestige.' Power trips and prestige parties do not build churches...Can I get a true church planter to say "Amen"!? .... You may wonder at the reason they felt the need to step out, and you may even disagree- that is life- but apply some logic... A few of you seem to enjoy dissecting fictional hearts!

I know some of the men...They have EARNED my respect by their love for souls... A love that I have witnessed repeatedly first hand...I know them, but not their hearts- only God does... I do, however, know that I trust their hearts in this matter... You may not know them enough to trust their judgement- I understand that.

Just remember- some of the six are or have been pastors...with pastors' hearts...Organizations of WPF or UPC does not change the fact that they go home and sit at the sides of grieving families, they visit the sick, they pray for their sheep, they reach out even when they are weary, they keep pushing on for that next soul... THEY PASTOR...and when a man does that right, he earns the love of his saints and those he mentors... I do know personally, that some of these men are doing that right, witnessed by the love of their true friends and saints...

That speaks louder to me than any of you who 'claim' to know their hearts...

Originally Posted by pelathais (Post 371034)

With respect, whenever I hear something like this I find that the "drastic changes" never even happened. Maybe you are sincere, but this just strikes me as the kind of "competitive holiness" that is so insidious.

This sounds like Steadfast's accusation about "UPC" homosexuals "shacking up without ever even backsliding." Didn't happen. Pure and simple.

In fact, the only instance of tolerating homosexuality within the UPC that I ever knew to exist involved an on-again-off-again "Tulsa Coordinator."

Once again we see the Tulsa apologists and their "great spirit" and just how they take the "high road." Innuedo, half-truths and outright fabrications.

They did this after Youth Congress and they did this after General Conference. Just because they managed to forgo the constant character assassination for a few hours last week they want us to believe their rant about their "pure motives" and "right spirit."

Originally Posted by StMark (Post 370928)

I didn't know that AMC was an organization - is it ???

Originally Posted by RevBuddy (Post 370940)

If it's not, it's doing a great imitation.


:TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO:

Originally Posted by CC1 (Post 370852)

Like any other human endeavor the WWPF will have men of ethics, honor, integrity, and right motive.

Like any other human endeavor the WWPF will have men lacking in ethics, honor, integrity and right motive.

The only thing that I thought gave the entire org. a bad name was the active prosletyzing that by many accounts was going on. That was disappointing.

I also think they were less than genuine about their plans when they kept insisting they had no plans regarding organizing when it is quite clear something of this detail and complexity had been in the planning for a long time.

Originally Posted by StMark (Post 370928)

I didn't know that AMC was an organization - is it ???

Originally Posted by stmatthew (Post 371087)

the AMC is simply a conference for conservative ministers from any org. It is not an org itself, and the promoters have been very adament that they do not want to become an org.

Originally Posted by Steve Epley (Post 371120)

That is the difference;
No officers
No by laws
No dues
No programs
No pressure
Just
prayer
praise
preaching
fellowship

Enough for me.

Originally Posted by Steve Epley (Post 371120)

That is the difference;
No officers
No by laws
No dues
No programs
No pressure
Just
prayer
praise
preaching
fellowship

Enough for me.

Originally Posted by George (Post 371146)

Out of curiosity and not for the purpose of debate or argument, if there is no money involved, how do they organize events? Who pays for the printing and postage of announced events? Do all ministers join to plan?

Originally Posted by Steve Epley (Post 371120)

That is the difference;
No officers
No by laws
No dues
No programs
No pressure
Just
prayer
praise
Priase Dancers
preaching
fellowship

Enough for me.

Originally Posted by pelathais (Post 371034)

With respect, whenever I hear something like this I find that the "drastic changes" never even happened. Maybe you are sincere, but this just strikes me as the kind of "competitive holiness" that is so insidious.

This sounds like Steadfast's accusation about "UPC" homosexuals "shacking up without ever even backsliding." Didn't happen. Pure and simple.

In fact, the only instance of tolerating homosexuality within the UPC that I ever knew to exist involved an on-again-off-again "Tulsa Coordinator."

Once again we see the Tulsa apologists and their "great spirit" and just how they take the "high road." Innuedo, half-truths and outright fabrications.

They did this after Youth Congress and they did this after General Conference. Just because they managed to forgo the constant character assassination for a few hours last week they want us to believe their rant about their "pure motives" and "right spirit."

Originally Posted by RevBuddy (Post 371044)

WAY TO GO, PELATHAIS!!!! I couldn't have said it better!! But I would have tried. :happydance

:TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO:

Originally Posted by StMark (Post 371149)

and do they preach for free ?

Originally Posted by Steadfast (Post 371152)

Originally Posted by StMark (Post 370710)

You seem a little irritable tonight

Originally Posted by PastorD (Post 370713)

Not at all. I say enough on here that gets me in trouble without someone that can't read misquoting.

:tantrum

Originally Posted by Steadfast (Post 371152)

Originally Posted by George (Post 371146)

Out of curiosity and not for the purpose of debate or argument, if there is no money involved, how do they organize events? Who pays for the printing and postage of announced events? Do all ministers meet to plan?

Originally Posted by StMark (Post 371149)

and do they preach for free ?