Re: Pros/Cons of the Three-step doctrine
 

1) Remember God chose us, we did not and could not ever choose God-- not without His Grace.

2) Scripture states that it is the kindness of God that leads us to repentance.

Romans 2:4
Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

2 Timothy 2:25
In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;



3) My response:

Isaiah 43:25
I, even I, am he that blots out your transgressions for my own sake, and will not remember your sins.


4) I consider myself to be Calvinist.

God stands at the door and knocks and I am glad that He gave me the will to open the door.




An attitude different from this puts emphasis on my response, my actions, as if there is something that I have done to save myself.

Clearly it is the blood of Jesus that saves and His blood alone.

I am not saved because I spoke in tongues.
I am not saved because I repented.
I am saved because it is the will of God that I be saved. He saved us when we were incapable of saving ourselves and for this I am grateful.

Re: Pros/Cons of the Three-step doctrine
 

Again, if we cannot judge the actions of God as either just or unjust, then there is no point in asserting that He is just (or unjust).

Re: Pros/Cons of the Three-step doctrine
 

HE is Just because HIS WORD says HE IS.

I declare HE is Just because I am mortal and NOT nearly as just as HE IS.

Re: Pros/Cons of the Three-step doctrine
 

Yeah, got that. :)

Another argument some use is this: who are we to say whether what God does is good or not? We are finite, and our minds are puny. And we don't see the big picture like He does. We simply aren't capable of passing judgment on God's actions.

And that's a good point, except for one small problem: it goes both ways! We are likewise incapable of saying (with any certainty) that God's action is good! And yet we do it all the time. Someone recovers from a sickness and we say "God is so good". Someone lands a great job, someone narrowly misses a car crash, etc. etc. Who are we to say (even assuming God made that thing happen, which in itself is a tricky question) that it was good?

Again, you could argue that everything God does is good because it says so in "His" word. And we're back where we started. ;)

Huh?

Re: Pros/Cons of the Three-step doctrine
 

Luke,

I have thought about this and I ask you, how would you describe your salvation in terms that leaves you out of the mix, so to speak?


I believe we play a role in our salvation, but I don't know how to put it to words in a way that does not ooze, "I got saved when I spoke in tongues."


I flatly reject that notion.

Re: Pros/Cons of the Three-step doctrine
 

But BY and because of His grace we DO choose Him.

Yep....and it is we who repent

He did not give you the will. He informed your will. He worked on your will. You willingly obeyed

No it does not. Just because pme recognizes our response does not mean that is where the EMPHASIS goes

Not even the hardest die hard Ultra Con would deny that.

Consider our example in Abraham. It was grace of God first. It was Abraham's faith second. It was God's command third and it was Abraham's obedience fourth.

Had the Grace of God not been there Abraham would have had no God to have faith in. God justified Abraham because of Abraham's faith. Had Abraham not obeyed, though he had faith, he would not have received the promise God promised him of a better land.

Re: Pros/Cons of the Three-step doctrine
 

So how can we apply this Biblical concept to our salvation experience and to how we preach and teach salvation to the world?

If Abraham was made righteous and justified by faith, how can we say anything other than that? We have Jesus to go through and He was obedient. By His obedience, many are made the righteousness of God-- a righteousness we only have access to through faith in the One who was obedient.


Furthermore, Abraham's justification happened before he ever received the Promise. His justification happened at faith. He did obey. he did receive the promise of God.

Those who are saved by faith will obey (or should) the leading of the scriptures and will experience the Promise of God-- Christ Jesus formed in us, the Hope of Glory.

But the attaining of that Promise doesn't establish our salvation.


Biblical faith in Jesus, the Christ, the Son of the Living God, established our salvation and that faith WILL NEVER HAPPEN outside of GOD'S GRACE.

Re: Pros/Cons of the Three-step doctrine
 

Did you get saved at turning from sin/repentance? It's something you chose to do. Do works in themselves save you or are works the result of salvation in which we will ultimately be judged by? Works are just as much part of salvation as anything else but they are not the source. The utterance of the Spirit is only a confirmation of the divine making his presence known. Tongues though are not the source of salvation but the Spirit which is Christ in you the hope of glory when you are united in him and you partake of his Spirit.

I also deny we are saved by "tongues" as would any knowledgeable Apostolic. I am also not "saved" at receiving the Spirit as covenant is not brought into fulness until baptism.

Re: Pros/Cons of the Three-step doctrine
 

THough I agree with much of this. James is very clear that "believed" is not about a moment in time but the fulness of Abraham's walk. "

Jas 2:22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works;
Jas 2:23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness"--and he was called a friend of God.
Jas 2:24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Thus the fulness of faith cannot be recognized until it is completed which is defined by the "specfic" utterance of God. Are we saved by works? Yes and No! Are good works in themselves salvational? No! Until they are relational they mean nothing. Are we saved unto good/God's works? Yes! Are we in the end judged by works and not by faith alone/mental agreement? Yes! Did Jesus base his relationship with you on works? Yes!

Abraham was in the end justified by his works by doing as God asked not simply a moment of time.

Re: Pros/Cons of the Three-step doctrine