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-   -   Pros/Cons of the Three-step doctrine (https://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?t=24332)

Jermyn Davidson 05-26-2009 08:46 PM
Re: Pros/Cons of the Three-step doctrine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LUKE2447 (Post 753317)
THough I agree with much of this. James is very clear that "believed" is not about a moment in time but the fulness of Abraham's walk. "

Jas 2:22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works;
Jas 2:23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness"--and he was called a friend of God.
Jas 2:24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Thus the fulness of faith cannot be recognized until it is completed which is defined by the "specfic" utterance of God. Are we saved by works? Yes and No! Are good works in themselves salvational? No! Until they are relational they mean nothing. Are we saved unto good/God's works? Yes! Are we in the end judged by works and not by faith alone/mental agreement? Yes! Did Jesus base his relationship with you on works? Yes!

Abraham was in the end justified by his works by doing as God asked not simply a moment of time.


I understand this train of thought, but do you consider repentance a work?

Baptism, full immersion in water, with the Name of Jesus called over you- is that a work?


These are things one must do out of obedience to the scriptures, so I guess it is a "work"-- What do you say?





Speaking in tongues is not something we are commanded to do like repentance from sin and baptism in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Also, stating now that standards are not salvific and have no bearing on one's salvation.

Aquila 05-26-2009 11:05 PM
Re: Pros/Cons of the Three-step doctrine
 
I'd like to share what I believe...

I believe that a sincere soul who has repented of sin will seek to be obedient to God's Word. The Holy Ghost will reveal to the individual what they must do next through study of the Word. Water baptism in Jesus name is a command, if one refuses to be water baptized they are essentially rebelling against the Gospel. However, if they never knew but repented of sin and got killed on their way to a Bible study about Baptism, God alone is the judge of their soul.

Sometimes the exceptions make the rule.

We serve a God who judges the heart... not the sacrament.

If you want to know that you're saved and you want the fullness of the New Testament Salvation Christ purchased on Calvary, obey the full Gospel of the Apostles.

And just to stir the pot a little... I don't believe one has to be completely immersed to be baptized. The word "baptizo" also means to "wash" as in having water poured over something.

Praxeas 05-27-2009 01:42 AM
Re: Pros/Cons of the Three-step doctrine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by LUKE2447 (Post 753317)
THough I agree with much of this. James is very clear that "believed" is not about a moment in time but the fulness of Abraham's walk. "

Jas 2:22 You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works;
Jas 2:23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness"--and he was called a friend of God.
Jas 2:24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Thus the fulness of faith cannot be recognized until it is completed which is defined by the "specfic" utterance of God. Are we saved by works? Yes and No! Are good works in themselves salvational? No! Until they are relational they mean nothing. Are we saved unto good/God's works? Yes! Are we in the end judged by works and not by faith alone/mental agreement? Yes! Did Jesus base his relationship with you on works? Yes!

Abraham was in the end justified by his works by doing as God asked not simply a moment of time.
I didn't say believe was a moment in time

Praxeas 05-27-2009 01:43 AM
Re: Pros/Cons of the Three-step doctrine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson (Post 753298)
So how can we apply this Biblical concept to our salvation experience and to how we preach and teach salvation to the world?

If Abraham was made righteous and justified by faith, how can we say anything other than that? We have Jesus to go through and He was obedient. By His obedience, many are made the righteousness of God-- a righteousness we only have access to through faith in the One who was obedient.


Furthermore, Abraham's justification happened before he ever received the Promise. His justification happened at faith. He did obey. he did receive the promise of God.

Those who are saved by faith will obey (or should) the leading of the scriptures and will experience the Promise of God-- Christ Jesus formed in us, the Hope of Glory.

But the attaining of that Promise doesn't establish our salvation.


Biblical faith in Jesus, the Christ, the Son of the Living God, established our salvation and that faith WILL NEVER HAPPEN outside of GOD'S GRACE.
If Abraham did not obey, the simple truth is he was not saved/did not have faith. He had faith in obedience, but it was his faith that saved him

LUKE2447 05-27-2009 07:41 AM
Re: Pros/Cons of the Three-step doctrine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas (Post 753432)
I didn't say believe was a moment in time
I know just making a point of clarification!

LUKE2447 05-27-2009 07:54 AM
Re: Pros/Cons of the Three-step doctrine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson (Post 753379)
I understand this train of thought, but do you consider repentance a work?

Baptism, full immersion in water, with the Name of Jesus called over you- is that a work?
Of course it is a work. Is it a work in the sense Paul uses work? no! The work in baptism is done by God as he is the source of judgment not the man. Works of man that attempt to justify is as a banner that man throws before God and says "this act" make me righteous. Baptism is not seen that way. It is man responding to God in faith in that God will do what HE said HE would do. It's man depending on God not himself and that man sees God is the ultimate creator of a new creation not himself. Man has nothing to glorify in as it is all God's work. Does man physically and mentally move a finger to save himself? Yes! Is his moving the source of his salvation in which he can glorify himself? No! The provision of Christ by the grace of God is the source of our salvation.


Quote:
These are things one must do out of obedience to the scriptures, so I guess it is a "work"-- What do you say?
Again what type of work and how does it relate to the whole. Saying "work" as a across the board term fails and makes scripture contradictory.


Quote:
Speaking in tongues is not something we are commanded to do like repentance from sin and baptism in the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ.
No it's not commanded as it is not YOURS TO DO! It is God's moving when he fills you. How can you commaned something you have no control over?

Quote:
Also, stating now that standards are not salvific and have no bearing on one's salvation.
Law is a salvational issue. Always has and always will be. The whole point of Christ coming is about law and our fulfilling of it.

Timmy 05-27-2009 11:04 AM
Re: Pros/Cons of the Three-step doctrine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Light (Post 753370)

Br can you please give me bible for your above statement.
Thank you
:popcorn2

Light 05-27-2009 12:27 PM
Re: Pros/Cons of the Three-step doctrine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Epley
WRONG Pharoah hardened his own heart then God hardened his heart. Did God KNOW what would happen absolutely. Did He MAKE him do it absolutely NOT!
Consider this the hardening of Pharoah did NOT make him wicked he was already wicked however Pharoah's choices made him the canidate God needed for His purpose thus after Pharoah's rejection then he himself became rejected and used for God's glory.
Br Epley your statement contradicts the word of God.

[Rom 9:17] For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

Pharaoh had no choice at all, just as Judas had no choice.

Timmy 05-27-2009 12:48 PM
Re: Pros/Cons of the Three-step doctrine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Light (Post 753581)
Br Epley your statement contradicts the word of God.

[Rom 9:17] For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.

Pharaoh had no choice at all, just as Judas had no choice.
Oh yeah, I forgot to cite that one! Thanks!

Very clearly, God wanted to flex His muscles and make a name for Himself. That was His reason for the plagues, and He needed an excuse for them: make Pharaoh say no to a reasonable request.

Light 05-27-2009 01:12 PM
Re: Pros/Cons of the Three-step doctrine
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timmy (Post 753591)
Oh yeah, I forgot to cite that one! Thanks!

Very clearly, God wanted to flex His muscles and make a name for Himself. That was His reason for the plagues, and He needed an excuse for them: make Pharaoh say no to a reasonable request.

I don't know if I am reading you right or not????? Do you have a problem with the way God did things??


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