Re: Jesus forsaken?
 

So do you believe there is a problem in seeing God through a “perceptual grid” that is based on the Trinitarian view or in “redefining His nature” through such a perception?

Your predicting such a thing must be why you are not yet seeing what I am posting. It must also be why you keep arguing against something that you cannot show I said in any of my posts.

Where did I say anything like this?

You're not reading my posts, are you? If you would you would see that I said nothing closely relating to your summary.

However, I would like to remind you that the Lord warns against calling the darkness, "light." I would also remind you that He spends a lot of time in the Bible telling us that we should not change the Truth of Him being One God.

What you are AGAIN confusing is that I am NOT speaking against THE PEOPLE, but I am speaking about THEIR DOCTRINE. Therefore, I have not one time said that God may or may not be doing a work with anyone. What I have said is a Trinitarian preacher should not teach his doctrine in an apostolic pulpit. That is what I said and it is also what I know the Bible would have me to stand upon.

First, satan is not a “god.” There is only One God. satan is a created being, thus he cannot be a god.

Second, I never mentioned Truth coming because a person has all Truth. Where did that come from? Are you trying to maybe justify something?

Third, I never said that Trinitarians could not be drawn by God’s Spirit. However, do you believe they are following the Holy Ghost if they remain in Trinitarianism?

Bro. Blume, you were the first to suggest I was speaking of you (see YOUR STATEMENT). I only said if you felt that way you would have to be the one to decide if the information fit your scenario (see MY RESPONSE). With that said, your statement makes no sense whatsoever.

But since you’re speaking along these lines, do you believe Trinitarians should preach their views in apostolic churches? What about calling a Trinitarian an “Apostle”? Is that ever acceptable?

Thanks for keeping it about doctrine and not about persons.... :)

Re: Jesus forsaken?
 

I think it is seriously important that Christ identified with us in every way in order for Him to truly vicariously die for us. Without the human element of the Son of God in suffering, then there was no need for the human element at all! This is the reason I disagree with divine flesh teachings. Divine flesh implies that Christ did not actually stand as us in His life and death. If His flesh was unlike our own, then He did not die as our kinsman redeemer. And standing as us in His life is vital to our salvation!

And saying He did not suffer the sufferings of a sinner in every way while having our sins is saying He was only a tupperware container, that was not really in identification with us for that vicarious death. And that strikes at the core of the entire work of the cross.

Hebrews 5 stated that during his days in the flesh he prayed with strong crying to him who was able to save him from death. Was this strong crying a charade? Was it pretend? No. It was VERY HUMAN and real. And during those days of flesh, He hung on a cross one day, and cried out.

"During his days of flesh" does not mean there were plural days in which he cried in strong crying. It simply is to be read as that during his incarnation he suffered on the cross and in the Garden, and genuinely cried and suffered in agony. When Jesus cried why Go had forsaken Him, it was humanity crying to God. And He cried to Him who was able to save Him from death. Was that a charade, too, as though His humanity could not actually cry to deity? True oneness understands his humanity was so actually that He really did PRAY and CRY TO GOD. That does not make the Son another person from the Father, but it makes human nature different and distinct from divine nature.

There is a distinction. But it is human nature distinct from divine nature.

Re: Jesus forsaken?
 

The word vicarious comes from the Latin word for substitute. Just as the Lamb, bull, or goat were substitutes for those who would keep the covenant with God in the OT. Jesus was a substitute for US. The Spirit of GOD did not leave the flesh and blood body, or abandoned the man on the cross. Nor did a Comforting Influence depart in increments from a man dying on the cross, so that He would feel frightened and alone. A suffering and abandoned Christ, screaming out in terror? No, Jesus was quoting the scripture, as He did while He contended with the Jewish religious prior to His death on the cross.

Mat 27:46

"And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

Psa 22:1

"My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?"

Why would Jesus quote this particular scripture? Because of what the religious Jews were saying to Jesus while He hung on the cross.

In Matthew 27, Mark 15, Luke 23, and John 19, Jesus doesn't cry out until after the Jews had mocked Him on the cross. If you compare Psalm 22 and Matthew 27, Mark 15, Luke 23, and John 19 together you will notice that My God my God is mentioned first in Psalm 22, and the description of the mocking follows. In Matthew 27, Mark 15, Luke 23, and John 19 , you first have the mocking and then Jesus cries out. Showing the religious Jews that they had just fulfilled the very scripture prophesied by King David in the Psalm.

Mat 27:37-39

"And set up over his head his accusation written, THIS IS JESUS THE KING OF THE JEWS. Then were there two thieves crucified with him, one on the right hand, and another on the left. And they that passed by reviled him, wagging their heads,"

Mark 15:29-32

"And they that passed by railed on him, wagging their heads, and saying, Ah, thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days, Save thyself, and come down from the cross. Likewise also the chief priests mocking said among themselves with the scribes, He saved others; himself he cannot save. Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him."

Psa 22:7

"All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,"

Mat 27:42-43

"He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him. He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the Son of God."


Psa 22:8

"He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him."

Mat 27:35

"And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots."

Mark 15:24

"And when they had crucified him, they parted his garments, casting lots upon them, what every man should take."

Luke 23:34

"Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots."

John 19:24

"They said therefore among themselves, Let us not rend it, but cast lots for it, whose it shall be: that the scripture might be fulfilled, which saith, They parted my raiment among them, and for my vesture they did cast lots. These things therefore the soldiers did."

Psa 22:18

"They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture."

The Psalm, at this point changes to speak of the delivering power, after everything that was spoken of in the Psalm was accomplished, Jesus SCREAMS OUT THE BEGINNING OF THE PSALM!!!!

ELOI ELOI LAMA SABACHTHANI!!!!

The soliders are casting lots for Jesus' garments, the Jewish leadership mock and taunt Jesus on the cross, they mock Jesus to come down, and then they will believe. Then Jesus screams the scripture down from off the cross. Those who mocked, those who jeered, those who would shoot the lip. They were reminded of the very same prophecy that was sung by the king prophet David. Jesus didn't die spiritually, He didn't loose the Holy Ghost until HE gave up the Ghost. God number one didn't turn his face from god number two. The scripture plainly promises that.

Psa 22:20-31

"Deliver my soul from the sword; my darling from the power of the dog. Save me from the lion's mouth: for thou hast heard me from the horns of the unicorns. I will declare thy name unto my brethren: in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee. Ye that fear the LORD, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and fear him, all ye the seed of Israel. For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; NEITHER HATH HE HID HIS FACE FROM HIM; BUT WHEN HE CRIED UNTO HIM, HE HEARD. My praise shall be of thee in the great congregation: I will pay my vows before themThe meek shall eat and be satisfied: they shall praise the LORD that seek him: your heart shall live for ever. All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee. For the kingdom is the LORD'S: and he is the governor among the nations. All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship: all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him: and none can keep alive his own soul. A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation. They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done this."

In Jesus name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com

Re: Jesus forsaken?
 

Methinks Benincasa and Burke have vendetta against Blume, eh, what say you?

:foottap

Re: Jesus forsaken?
 

Would you like to answer my PM? :thumbsup

Re: Jesus forsaken?
 

Not at all. I think doctrinal differences should be discussed, expecially if they cause disfellowship. Two differing views cannot both be right. The main thing is while such differences are discussed, both sides must keep their statements DOCTRINAL and not PERSONAL. Sometimes this is not accomplished, but it should be.

I have nothing personal against Bro. Blume. I just do not agree with some of his doctrinal positions. But since a forum like AFF invites these type discussions, we talk.... :thumbsup

Re: Jesus forsaken?
 

Very good and very plain!!!

Thanks for all the Scripture, for it is the only evidence that truly proves anything is "biblical Truth." I appreciate it when a man can prove with their Bible what they say is Truth instead of just quoting what they believe from their own thoughts.

Re: Jesus forsaken?
 

Bro. Blume, I just posted the following in the prophecy debate forum in answer to a statement concerning prophecy and divine flesh:

I wholeheartedly believe that Jesus was both “son of God” (God) and “son of man” (human). However, I do not agree that He and God were separated on the cross. Bro. Benincasa beautifully brought to light the account of what truly happened on the cross in his above post. The Scripture he used more than adequately shows that Jesus did not die spiritually, that He did not feel forsaken of God, and that He did fulfill all written of Him even during His crucifixion.

Blessings!

Re: Jesus forsaken?
 

You noticed? ;)

Anyway, I used IGNORE, since I suspected as much would only continue, so y'all can enjoy their words.

Re: Jesus forsaken?
 

Any thoughts about Christ's need to suffer in His humanity for our sins aside from physical pain?