Originally Posted by rgcraig (Post 368880)

Of course it does. People are people. You can't divide up churches and families and keep a "good spirit" about it. I have no doubt in my mind the services are great in Tulsa and the words are good, but just like any other meeting.....those feeling can be fleeting.

In time will this all settle down, sure it will and everyone will go their own ways. Will some be the better for it, probably. Will some not be, possibly.

Originally Posted by Pianoman (Post 368884)

The Tulsa leadership would have been fools not to take the high road! I am not surprised at all that the facade of a kind and sweet spirit was initially put forth.

The truth is that they drew first blood by mis-using the UPCI mailing list trying to cause maximum damage to it. The mailing about the Tulsa event to the UPCI list of preachers was not congruent to the vision and best interests of the UPCI.

After the first strike, they now act like they are innocent and sweet! They now take the high road. They hope that if there is any reaction from the UPCI, they will look like victims instead of the predators. The sad part is that the gullible will actually fall for this act!

As others have said, time will tell! Will the lambs skin come off and reveal the wolf?

Originally Posted by Discerner (Post 368920)

I get a funny feeling when I hear about how they did not bash the UPCI. Does anyone realize that if they did bash the UPCI at this public meeting that it would have a negative affect on the fence sitters? I mean this is an anti-upci as it gets. These men are seeking position and affirmation since they could not find it in the UPC. Look at how many of the Tulsa team have lost recent election in the upc. Do we think they would be resigning to go to Tulsa? I say no way.

Just like the AMF of the 70s. They are trying not to be, but its hard to start a successful organization that is formed out of division. When division is your motivation it becomes your foundation.

Originally Posted by Steve Epley (Post 368935)

The AMF was formed in the 60's and was formed because certain men were thrown out illegally according to the manual. I have all the correspondance concerning it. They formed because they had no recourse. The GS was afraid of the La & Tx. Supts and bowed to their wishes all contrary to the manual.

Originally Posted by Steve Epley (Post 368906)

Friend this is so unlike you I had to look twice to see if it was you. Are you having a bad day?:girlytantrum To say it is a facade is so impugning could it change you bet. Why wouldn't they be happy with 1000 preachers showing up on such a short notice?

Originally Posted by pelathais (Post 368842)

I appreciate the reports but I have to agree with NW Pastor. Actions speak louder than words.

One thing that speaks loudly to me as well are the words that are said when people think no one else is listening. For most of my life in the UPC I sat and listened to some of the brothers who were at Tulsa as they said some of the most hateful things against their own brothers. Someone mentioned the recent "letter writers" and "how wrong they were..."

I remember one of those "letter writers" being mocked and cruelly belittled with some of the angriest and nastiest venom when I was being recruited to go to P.S.R. "It's the premier 'conservative' Apostolic conference..." they boasted. And then the discussion turned because of a book that was seen sitting out- a book by a particular author who had just started a home missions church in Texas.

That writer was called a "saint stealer" for accepting his own mother-in-law into his new church. And these guys don't want to split up families? The man who was speaking to us grew red in the face and raised his voice and bitterly denounced the brother. His own wife was trying to physically restrain his rage whenever that author's name came up. The hatred was livid. And make no mistake about it, it was hate.

And you know what? When pressed, that man confessed that he had never yet personally met the brother he was so angrily denouncing. He was just reciting the bile that had been regurgitated to him by others. That was my invitation to P.S.R. many years ago. And now many of the same cast of characters come forth, this time with meeker words. But is it the same spirit? Everyone seems to be trying a little too hard to convince themselves of something here.

1 John 4:20-21: "If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen? And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also."

And the complaints about "changes" and "loss of standards?" Every time I ask about that people end up ducking behind the bush or running out of the room. Most of those complaints are like the "fog machines" at Youth Conference - they simply never existed. What we are dealing with is the long standing emnity and hatred that has so characterized our movement. And to be fair, the Baptists and and many other groups are just as bad, if not worse.

The last thing that W.T. Witherspoon said about his former PAJC fellowship concerned the "great spiritual struggle and the division among the brethren." Some of the first words he published as a new minister in the UPC were, "... as the falling away increases and men allow themselves to be possessed with a spirit of leadership and betrayal of their brethren, it is more and more necessary that we that we stand for the right."

Here's a question for you folks- have you ever been punched in the face by a brother in the Lord? Personally I've been physically attacked in churches. Anyone else? And I don't mean by a "sinner." I mean attacked by a Jesus name baptized, Holy Ghost filled - tongue talking saint of God and another time by a preacher. Have you ever had a brother or sister scream and curse at you? I've seen ministers swear like sailors, they were so angry at another preacher.

There's a lot of hate bottled up in our movement. Hate for one another. I remember seeing a friend loose $10,000's of dollars because a couple of other preachers got the board to rule against him in a matter. "That's it! We got rid of him now!" There was palapable glee.

But no, the man loved the UPC fellowship so much that he just stood there and waved "good-bye" to all that money while he kept his integrity and stayed in the fellowship. And now the men who robbed him are out. Go figure.

Originally Posted by timlan2057 (Post 368938)

Epley, while I don't quite have the totally idealistic view of the AMF framers any more than I do the Tulsa guys, I will say your last sentence is correct.

Stanley Chambers was newly elected General Superintendent and really, Chambers was just a nice guy and a bean counter.

He was swimming with sharks dealing with Weeks and Guidroz.

Was a newly-elected GS going to stand up and over-rule the very tenured and very strong District Superintendents of what-was-then by far the UPC's two mightiest districts?

Not a snowball's chance in the infernal regions.

Originally Posted by Steve Epley (Post 368952)

There is a story behind some of this most folks don't know. There was a plot to remove Elder Burr from his church so a prominent person could take the church over (no names) he was encouraged to run for GS from men he thought was his friends it was a manuver to oust him. He lost then the same guys tried to get him to run for DS but he had wisened up, but at the expense of making the DS then upset. It was a politcal plot that failed but it opened his eyes up to the political corruption of organizational politics. So he began to write and did he write? And true Bro. Chambers had just became Supt and he was not going to clash with those two war horses. I do not know about Guidroz but Weeks told many a preacher in his later years he did not handle that correctly and was sorry. They never thought it would cause the disruption it caused. But I NEVER heard Elder Burr speak unkind about Guidroz-Weeks-Chambers only the system.