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Re: Thief on the Cross: A New Covenant Believer?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea (Post 516134)

Thank you Dan for your response to the subject matter.

So the New Covenant officially begins at Pentecost, Dan?

Can you elaborate?

What was it about the two texts I cited that you do not understand concerning the New Covenant? :winkgrin

Re: Thief on the Cross: A New Covenant Believer?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea (Post 516132)

Rico ... if you can't enter this discussion without any theology or an honest attempt to answer the questions posed perhaps you can read the thread?

This will be my last communication directed towards you on this thread if you will not discuss the subject matter.

Good, because I have nothing left to say to you. It's one thing to differ on when someone is saved or not. I know that there's plenty of room on this forum for one steppers, two steppers, three steppers, and more steppers. However, what you are proposing here is an outright LIE, plain and simple. Any lamebrained numbskull knows the new testament did not go into effect until after the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. The Bible is very clear on that and you have crossed over into promoting false doctrine. That makes you a false prophet, as far as I'm concerned and my eyes are closed to any more of the jibberish you like to pass off as truth. Good riddance.

Re: Thief on the Cross: A New Covenant Believer?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rico (Post 516138)

Interestingly enough I have not offered when the New Covenant began ... read my post carefully but rather that some say it did not go into effect until His death ..

Part of my question was when 3 steppers thought it did ... His death? Resurrection? or Pentecost?

a. DWW believes it was at Pentecost.

b. From your insistent post I must surmise that you believe it did not go into effect until his resurrection ... (any lamebrained numbskull would know that ...)

c. and St. Matt ... who may be the real target of your ire towards "false" doctrine... believes:

Quote:

Originally Posted by stmatthew (Post 515135)

Until the death of Christ, the new covenant had NO LEGAL bite. If anyone was "saved" prior to His death and blood offering, then it was either through the old covenant, or Jesus simply worked outside of the scope we understand. But the latter would have been an exception, and not the rule.

I believe you owe me an apology for calling me a false prophet on this one ... but I digress ...

My post was for those baptismal regenerationists who say that the New Covenant goes into effect at His death ... which apparently does not include you ... my brother ... I was using their logic as parameters for discussion and refutation.

Can you show why you believe that the New Covenant does not go into effect until his resurrection? How does this apply to the thief on the cross? Is he saved under the New Covenant, Old, other?

Re: Thief on the Cross: A New Covenant Believer?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea (Post 516120)

This from a different thread ... still would like some feedback from the 3 steppers lurking about ...

--------------------------------------------------

Some say the thief on the cross was saved under the old covenant ... what does that mean to you,?

Some insist, that the covenant has no bite until the death of the testator yet the bible tells us Jesus promises the thief salvation before He (Jesus dies).

and ....

not to get too technical ....

the thief dies after Jesus dies ...

so to say that he is judged under the law ... is inaccurate then under your parameters.

You reiterate that a covenant comes into force with the death of the testator: "For where there is a testament, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is in force after men are dead, since it has no power at all while the testator lives." (Hebrews 9:16-17).

but Jesus predeceased the thief ...

"Then the soldiers came and broke the legs of the first and of the other who was crucified with Him. But when they came to Jesus and saw that He was already dead, they did not break His legs." (John 19:32-33).

Legs were broken to finish the job ....

Thus the thief died, unbaptized ... much less using the right formula, under the new covenant.

If it is not possible for a new covenant believer to enter heaven without baptism...what's the thief doing in Paradise? ... Which I believe is Mike from Arkansas original question.

One writer on the subject states:

Quote:
Keep in mind Jesus promises his salvation knowing full well He would die before the thief ... He's omniscient as God. Are you suggesting Jesus didn't know that thief would enter his reward ... during the "new convenant" era ... that requires baptism to be saved???

Surely the thief could have cursed God and not believed in the hours that he languished after Christ's death ... yet salvation is granted to a new testament believer looking forward ... to a dispensation you view as grace through obeying 3 steps to enter the New Covenant.

Surely Jesus knew what He was doing, no?

Furthermore ...No one has ever been acquitted by the law ... correct?

Jesus is the Way, the Truth and the Life.

"We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified." (Galatians 2:15-16)

So when does the New Covenant have bite or go into effect??? Is it until He dies??, resurrects ???... the Day of Pentecost???

Did the thief still die under the Old Covenant ... and thus saved by the Old Covenant? Do you have Scripture to support this claim?

An answer to these questions is warranted ...

Does it matter? He was saved. He put faith in Jesus, that was all that matter, it is a totally isolated case. I heard one guy say that the only valid reason not to be baptized is being nailed to the cross, then you might have a case to argue exceptions.

Re: Thief on the Cross: A New Covenant Believer?

Quote:

Originally Posted by keith4him (Post 516146)

Chalk Keith4him to IT DOESN'T MATTER ...

Re: Thief on the Cross: A New Covenant Believer?

Dan, save it, Bud. I'm done with you.

Re: Thief on the Cross: A New Covenant Believer?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rico (Post 516148)

Dan, save it, Bud. I'm done with you.

I'm sorry you will not join this discussion about why you believe the New Covenant goes into effect at His resurrection as opposed to some of your soteriological cohorts who believe it has no legal bite until His death ... quoting Hebrews as substantiation.

It would been interesting to see your take in light of the Scriptures in opposition to the Pentecost theorists... Perhaps DWW can elaborate more on proving his view that it was the day of Pentecost.

It might prove fascinating if you decide to keep your hat in the ring ...to hear 3 steppers disagree on something for a change even if they are lamebrained numbskulls for not agreeing w/ your position on this matter.

Re: Thief on the Cross: A New Covenant Believer?

in my humble opinion the thief was saved under the old covenant and the new covenant didnt take place until pentecost we all know that this is when peter was give the keys to the kingdom of heaven in the book of acts thus starting this grace dispensation ....i just recently read something in matthew 27:51-53..... does this mean that all the saints under the old covenant are in heaven? there sin sacrifice only rolled there sins ahead a year it didnt erase them

Re: Thief on the Cross: A New Covenant Believer?

Quote:

Originally Posted by keith4him (Post 516146)

Does it matter? He was saved. He put faith in Jesus, that was all that matter, it is a totally isolated case. I heard one guy say that the only valid reason not to be baptized is being nailed to the cross, then you might have a case to argue exceptions.

While this isn't the ONLY time a death bed confession took place, to me it screams that GRACE is ultimately what saves and not idolizing a formula above all else. Does it happen often? Of course not. In fact, throughout history, true death bed confessions are probably VERY rare. I've just always held to the belief, which is reinforced by the thief next to Jesus, that someone who is in a situation where they do not have access to a pentecostal preacher to baptize them or shake their heads hard enough so something similar to tongues comes from their mouths, is saved if they simply ask God.

Re: Thief on the Cross: A New Covenant Believer?

so jesus bieng the ultimiate sacrafice for our sins he sealed the old covenant and began ours ....i will have to do some scipture searching to provide evidence if i have mispoken please forgive my igornance