Re: Are Independent Churches Operating in Rebellio
 

How can you rebel against a man-made organization that has NO divine authority? Organizations are made by men and can be used as a tool to promote the work of God but they are NEVER the work of God.

Re: Are Independent Churches Operating in Rebellio
 

Re: Are Independent Churches Operating in Rebellio
 

Steve Epley
Registered Member

Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 7,410
Re: Are Independent Churches Operating in Rebellio
How can you rebel against a man-made organization that has NO divine authority? Organizations are made by men and can be used as a tool to promote the work of God but they are NEVER the work of God.

Hey, I think Steve Epley is a rebel!

Re: Are Independent Churches Operating in Rebellio
 

correct...good post

Re: Are Independent Churches Operating in Rebellio
 

Charnok, you have pricked my heart, conviction swells deeply within.

I would like for you to be my leader and mentor. Please tell me where to send my dues.

Re: Are Independent Churches Operating in Rebellio
 

No.

Yes.


Some yes and some no.

Re: Are Independent Churches Operating in Rebellio
 

I don't read it in the bible that way.

I read that the Paul was the Apostle to the Gentiles and that what feel on him daily was the care of all the churches,

1Co 4:17 For this cause have I sent unto you Timothy, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of my ways which be in Christ, as I teach every where in every church.

The way I read it is that Paul had authority over all the Gentile churches and set things in order.

I believe the first pastors of the first churches were the original apostles. Afterwards elders and/or/including a Pastor were to be ordained. Once a pastor could prove that he could look after the church, then an apostle could leave and go elsewhere.

The scripture also talks about governments and in the context of administrations in the gifts of the Spirit, lists a hierarchy...

1Co 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

I believe the 5 fold ministry listed in Ephesian 4:11 along with the scripture above shows that apostles are first, then prophets come second, and that evangelists, pastors, and teachers all come afterwards under the general category of teachers.

If one of the pastors couldn't handle a situation in their church, they could appeal to the apostle Paul and in fact sometimes Paul had to deal with specific situations in the churches.

That's how I see it, but if I'm wrong perhaps someone could correct me with sound doctrine.

Re: Are Independent Churches Operating in Rebellio
 

It looks like some NEED an organization...for 40 years I have watched people leave this or that to turn right around and start this or that...It must be our human nature...

Re: Are Independent Churches Operating in Rebellio
 

Steve, this gets my vote for quote of the day.:dance

Most Orgs do more harm than good. Stiffle leadership's incentive to listen for the Spirit's leading.

"Son's of God are lead by the Spirit of God." Rom 8:14

God gave mankind the right to make the wrong choices. He didn't interfere when they decided to eat the forbidden fruit. Most of the posts here express the opinion that everybody must be prevented from making mistakes. Let me make a profound statement: "YOU CAN'T STRAIGHTEN EVERYBODY ELSE OUT SO QUIT TRYING"

Re: Are Independent Churches Operating in Rebellio
 

There has to be accountability for eveyone even preachers. Some go off the deep end doctrinally. and off into control and manipulation for which the people need safeguards from this type of leadership in place . If not, many times, it comes dangerously close to cultish behaviors, of course some of our organizations do too.

Galatians is a good chapter of the Bible to read!

Blessings, Rhoni

Re: Are Independent Churches Operating in Rebellio
 

If one were to study church history, they would find out that as the last eyewitnesses of our Lord died off, false doctrine and false teachers went up.

The devil can't stand against strong leadership, so he waits until they die off or lose their influence.

Act 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
Act 20:30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.
Act 20:31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

Paul was aware of this and so are other strong leaders and will not cease to warn others so that they can be prepared. We are not ignorant of his devices.

As false doctrines and teachers abounded, there must be a way to tell who is false and who is not. Probably during that time, much of that was done by reputation and/or who they studied under, assuming that what they were taught by their teachers was what they themselves still believed and clung to. A good name is rather to be chosen than great riches. Another way was by what doctrine they held to. Jesus and Paul were all concerned about feeding His sheep so that they would know truth so that if someone came around teaching something different, they would be ashamed.

Nowadays, there are many oneness organizations that hold to the basic doctrines of belief in one God, Acts 2:38 salvation, Jesus Name baptism for the remission of sins, baptism of the Holy Ghost, and holiness.

If a traveling evangelist made himself available to a local church, probably that Pastor would ask for references - which speaks to his reputation and having a good name - and what basic doctrines he holds to. I can't imagine a 3 stepper Acts 2:38 church allowing a 1 stepper evangelist to come preach to some possible sinner, never been-born again people in his congregation.

So reputation and basic doctrines and holiness is probably what certain pastors look for nowadays in determining whether to let a traveling evangelist that they haven't heard of before, stand behind his pulpit.

Organizations can be a way of guaranteeing basic doctrines and some type of minimal agreed upon set of holiness standards. However, references would probably still need to be checked out to ensure that just because they believed in certain basic doctrines and minimal holiness at one point in time in the distant past, doesn't necessarily mean they still hold to those things now. While, yearly re-affirming a commitment to doctrine and holiness could be one way to ensure that, as we have seen in at least one organization, signing a person's name to re-affirm beliefs in basic doctrines and a minimal holiness standards doesn't mean anything to some. But perhaps a long time ago, if one held a "current" license with a certain organization, it would give some comfort in not having to do as much checking.

From Frank Bartleman's Azusa Street...

"A high standard was held up for a clean life. 'When the enemy shall come in like a flood, the Spirit of the Lord shall lift up a standard against him" (Isa. 59:19)" - page 54

Re: Are Independent Churches Operating in Rebellio
 

I completely agree, but shouldn't there be a doctrine for the structure of the Church? I'm not saying my pastor wouldn't allow a UPC preacher to speak in to the assembly, but shouldn't we try to help our brethren in orgs that are NOT authorized by Scripture, and admonish them to get back into the apostolic structure of the Church as outlined by the NT?

-Bro. Alex

Re: Are Independent Churches Operating in Rebellio
 

I have to wonder what organization the Apostles were part of?

Re: Are Independent Churches Operating in Rebellio
 

I think the original desciples/apostles had the Holy Ghost to lead them. That was organization led by God.

Re: Are Independent Churches Operating in Rebellio
 

It's to bad that we don't have that today.

Re: Are Independent Churches Operating in Rebellio
 

Now, brother, don't you know they were CLEARLY UPC?!
Peter was the General Superintendent and Andrew was his Assistant General Superintendent (gotta keep things in the family). And then Thaddeus was the Secretary, John was the Treasurer and Paul led the Foreign Missions Department. In Acts 31 we see the first Sheaves for Christ rally, and boy did Matthew get a good offering that night with his various competitions he gave to the youth in the Jerusalem/Bethlehem District. And who can forget the first General Conference in Acts 32 where they rented out the arena in Antioch and they had all those meetings, workshops, offerings and whatnot? Oh good times, how the spirit moved then through all those programs and works of the flesh...

-Bro. Alex

Re: Are Independent Churches Operating in Rebellio
 

Peter Urshan, I see now... I should have put two and two together... : )

Re: Are Independent Churches Operating in Rebellio
 

Concerning a structure for the church, the bible does state that apostles were first, then prophets, then teachers which implies that evangelists, pastors, and teachers all falls under the ministry category of "teachers".

1Co 12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

When I read the NT, I see Paul being "over" all of the Gentile churches. Therefore I see an apostle as being over certain churches. That means that the Pastors of those churches have somebody over them. Concerning a structure of Apostles, I am not sure about that. We do know that when an issue came up that Paul and Barnabas, who were both apostles, did not know how to handle, they went to Jerusalem to have a conference with all of the apostles and elders to discuss and make a decision. Some have said that it seemed that at that conference, James was the leader and had the final word because what he suggested became the final rule. Perhaps tradition/history on James can shed some light on that.

Concerning "brethren" in org's not authorized by scripture - I take that as meaning "believers" who are not in truth. I think it would be good to look at what Jesus and the rest of the scriptures has to say about dealing with other religious bodies who are not in truth. They all deserve to hear the truth and be given a chance to accept it or deny it. I know I've witnessed to people in other religious organizations.

Re: Are Independent Churches Operating in Rebellio
 

Well, they were called Christians first at Antioch, but the scripture and history does record the early Catholics as being the first group to come out of the organization established by Jesus and start their own new thing.

As I discussed in a few messages before in this thread, after the early catholics departed from the faith and got their own teachers and started their own new "christian denomination" outside of the authority that Jesus said up, there must have been methods used to those who remained in the faith to determine if a traveling evangelist was of those inside the faith or of those who rebelled and started their own new thing. Scripture itself shows us some ways of determining which group a person may belong to.

Re: Are Independent Churches Operating in Rebellio
 

Was Martin Luther operating in rebellion?

Re: Are Independent Churches Operating in Rebellio
 

Yes, he was.

"Rebellion is a refusal of obedience[1].It may therefore be seen as encompassing a range of behaviours from civil disobedience and mass nonviolent resistance, to violent and organized attempts to destroy an established authority such as the government. Those who participate in rebellions are known as "rebels"."

Wikipedia

Luther was a "rebel" in every sense of the word, and I am not saying that's a bad thing.

When our country rebelled against tyranny reams of scripture were used to justify the rebellion.

How would that apply in a religious organizational setting?

Was Luther justified?

Are those who leave religious organizational structures justified?