Re: Jail house Christianity and Jesus Name People
 

Doctrine includes Salvation...

One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism...who could argue against the Word of God?

Re: Jail house Christianity and Jesus Name People
 

Liz they were rebaptized because they had been baptized unto John ....
in Acts 19 ...
They were subsequently baptized INTO THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST ... into the person of Christ....

This is in stark contrast to you and a trinitarian, today ... both placing faith in Christ for their salvation.

A person baptized in ceremony naming the titles is placing faith in Jesus Christ in the same manner as you did ... NO DIFFERENCE.

I take nothing away from your experience but I think it is you that are taking away from those who have a "properly administered baptism" which you cannot validate makes a difference or adds .... in the person's Sprit-led walk... either anectdotally or scripturally. Other than those you've been in contact with while there are others who have similar success stories without your type experience.

You don't need to defend Jesus name baptism, Liz. I believe it ... and practice it. My church does too.

But don't confuse your one revelation with the salvation only Christ affords ... nor your personal experience as normative for others.

Normative initiation ... I'll accept ... normative "replicative" experiences ... with superior type baptisms adding to a birth in and by His Spirit ... nope.

Re: Jail house Christianity and Jesus Name People
 

Somebody's been reading the Gospel of Inclusion...:)

Re: Jail house Christianity and Jesus Name People
 

Somebody doesn't know that words mean things ... but this coming from a thread hi-jacker who posts on a forum who thinks Emergent Church is the same as PCI doctrine ... or that relevant theology is the same as relative theology ..

You spit out terms like Charismatic and the Gospel of Inclusion because your friends spew them... neither having implications here.

Invest in a dictionary, Randy.

Re: Jail house Christianity and Jesus Name People
 

I could be wrong, but I find it a rare thing for someone to be calling on the name of Jesus while going down in the titles, of course the same could be said for those be baptized in Jesus name, my hope is that this changes to where the baptizee is instructed to call on the name of Jesus before baptism.

Hard to do while going under, but maybe with technology that can happen sometime soon.

Re: Jail house Christianity and Jesus Name People
 

Folks, be civil!

Re: Jail house Christianity and Jesus Name People
 

It is nice to know that you can interpret what folks believe...then you criticize them and then say you and your church believes the same...

interpretation...It doesn't take a dictionary to see somebody has some serious issues... :)

Re: Jail house Christianity and Jesus Name People
 

Daniel I really hope that you know what you are talking about. We do not have the right to change anything that has been given us by example in scriptures.

I actually see where you are coming from, but I do not think you know exactly where I am coming from.

I am struggling teaching the Celebrate Recovery stuff, it does NOT mention Baptism with it's salvation study at all-then it goes to suggest that repeating a prayer and teaches one is saved forever--this is not the normative biblical experience.

Now I am more inclined in someone believing that they have called on the name of the Lord in Baptism --that is for them to decide.

But to suggest less than, and seeing people struggle with sin- God does have something more for them.

Re: Jail house Christianity and Jesus Name People
 

You can't discount a Person's Salvation by not preaching the Whole Gospel...

Whether we agree or disagree on standards the Gospel is what the Gospel is...

The Death, Burial and the Resurrection...

Repents... Baptism...and the Infilling of the Holy Ghost...

Re: Jail house Christianity and Jesus Name People
 

I take it you can only use the Book they give you?

Re: Jail house Christianity and Jesus Name People
 

Calling on the name of the Lord, Pastor K ... is a phrase that does not mean invoking the proper name of Jesus ... it has never meant that throughout Scripture. I have to assume you are basing this on Acts 22.

Calling on the name of the Lord has scriptural precedent and meaning.

Romans 10 reads

9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame."[e] 12For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."[f]


One of the gravest errors we make in rightly dividing the word is our failure to understand idiomatic expressions of the Hebraic language.

In the OT ... to call upon the name of the Lord, the word upon is the particle preposition b or beth. There is no Strong's number that corresponds. Only the use of this Hebrew preposition separates to call the LORD or to call to the LORD from to call upon the LORD or to call upon the name of the LORD.

Almost every use of to call on the name of the LORD involves the construction of an altar and the offering of a sacrifice (Genesis 12:8, 13:4, 21:33--implied, 26:25; 1 Kings 18:24).

All of the Old Testament sacrifices were only as effective as the believing of the one offering them.All of these sacrifices entailed acknowledging God's lamb who would be revealed in the future. To call “upon the name of the LORD” was to formally enter into a covenant by coming into His presence.

Notice that it was between the believer and God ... not the officiator of a baptismal ceremony invoking it on someone else.

CrazyHomie once stated:

If we are going to be called "Apostolic" and a "new testament church", obviously one would think we would want to be biblically based in our baptism. Baptism was a ritual cleansing incorportated into the mosaic law. If a woman was on her monthly, she would go and "cleanse" herself. If you were healed of leprosy, etc. one would obey the law and cleanse themselves. These baptism pools were all over the holy land and were called "Mikvahs". When Peter preached in Acts 2, he told them to go wash according to the "new covenant" which was Christ. They were no longer to cleanse themselves according to the "old covenant" which was the law. Also, it was a public confession as to their new found faith in this messiah called Jesus Christ. In those days to public confess ones faith away from the law to follow Jesus, was inviting persecution if not death from the religious community. Three thousand obeyed Peter and went and washed themselves. I am not saying an individual is not saved by invocation, rather biblically speaking, it is always up to the believer to call on Christ for salvation.

Entering this new covenant is through our confession of faith in the Lamb ... as it was for Abraham, Jacob, Moses (See Hebrews 11)

Paul in Romans 10 is echoing a biblical truth and a promise from OT scripture ...

These too are the words of the prophet Joel and Peter ... and others also ... there is witness in Scripture .... and calling upon the name has alway fell upon the believer as it relates to salvation ... not the utterances of third party ... i.e. baptizer.

The name is undoubtedly attached to the person and His authority and whole nature.

A sinner, Jew or Gentile, who has sincerely believed and calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved ....

John says

And his commandment is this: we should believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and love one another just as he commanded us

As does Joel:

Quote:
32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.

As does the Psalmist:

Quote:
Psalm 116:4, "Then called I upon the name of the LORD [YHWH] ; O LORD [YHWH], I beseech thee, deliver my soul."
As does Paul:

Quote:
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

As does Ananias, in Acts:

Quote:
"And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord."

As does Peter, in the book of Acts:

Quote:
21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

when Paul speaks about confessing the Lord w/ their mouth ... he is speaking of a believing upon the sacrifice found as part of a covenant being made. Hence, Paul expounds in the next few verses that this confession is calling upon the name of the Lord - a phrase that has deep significance thoughout the Word of God. The Epistles often explain to the believer and the non-believer how we are saved ... through Jesus Christ.

Calling upon the name of the Lord is not a one-time invocation or equational formula .... but faith/trust/reliance on the testator.

Re: Jail house Christianity and Jesus Name People
 

As elizabeth quotes:I am struggling teaching the Celebrate Recovery stuff, it does NOT mention Baptism with it's salvation study at all-then it goes to suggest that repeating a prayer and teaches one is saved forever--this is not the normative biblicial experience./.

Liz this is not a normative biblical experience either when you are praying and some people come up to you and lay there hands on you and start yelling its the holyghost let it go let it out its the holyghost your almost there no one did this in the bible...

Re: Jail house Christianity and Jesus Name People
 

Daniel don't you see that we are not the only ones guilty of this?

Where do you think the sinners prayer came from? It came from a -as you put-replicative experience.

I think you have to becareful here with this-we are bound to replicate something. Hope when we do it,we will replicate what is right.

Re: Jail house Christianity and Jesus Name People
 

Ha ha!

Re: Jail house Christianity and Jesus Name People
 

I want to address this, I don't think you know my full background. My roots go back to the Foursquare movement, my family has been in the UPCI or Oneness Pentecostalism for 5 generations or more. I graducated from a UPCI Bible College etc. My graduate degree came from one of 2 Prestigious Baptist Seminaries on the West Coast.

One man who I consider a brilliant mentor is a out right tri-theist in every since of the world. I have no problem believing that he has a relationship with God, the fruit is evident. I have no problem mingling with those who don't see eye to eye with me, I don't every speak ill or down play their faith experience. I accept them as children of the King, but that won't stop me from sharing what I believe to be normative and effectual in regards to the New Birth teaching.

My greatest influence in that regard comes from a British, Trinitarian Bapticostal preacher. While I regard what I teach to be full salvation or full gospel message it is clear that others without the same experience have something significant in their lives, I embrace that, celebrate that and tell them what has happened to me, and why I feel it to be important.

Re: Jail house Christianity and Jesus Name People
 

Do you feel these people are lost?

Re: Jail house Christianity and Jesus Name People
 

You are kidding right?

Re: Jail house Christianity and Jesus Name People
 

If they are not lost Elizabeth then there way must be correct also I asume by this..(You are kidding right?) You would think they are not lost and are saved..

Re: Jail house Christianity and Jesus Name People
 

No, because ultimately faith saves us, but salvation is a rich full orbed experience. Faith is transforming and leads the truly faith filled person to want to obey.

Without repentance and faith there is no response to the Gospel, without baptism into Christ Jesus then the body of sins remains, without the Spirit no one can overcome the sin nature.

Re: Jail house Christianity and Jesus Name People
 

Dan Segraves said that James 2:7 speaks about baptism,

7 Do they not blaspheme that noble name by which you are called?

Re: Jail house Christianity and Jesus Name People
 

Elizabeth, there's no formula for dramatic change. Jesus is the only way some things can change. That's not a method, not a formula, not something a person can teach or learn. He's Jesus. My savior, my redeemer, the one who reached out to me and drew me tenderly, gently, to Himself, the one who has changed things within me and made me over as a new person.

He didn't point at a list and check things off as *I* did anything. *He* pursued me. *He* drew me. *He* changed me. *He* continues to lead me. All I've done is fall completely in love with Him. He's my precious savior, my sweet Jesus, my God almighty who will never leave me or forsake me no matter what I do. He's my magnificent redeemer, the one who has changed me and continues to change me. All of this has happened without being baptized (at least since coming back to church/God) or speaking in tongues (well...at least until the last few days...).

I've heard some of the most spectacular Jesus centered preaching from people who teach and live what you've listed above. It's not the list that does the changing. It's Jesus.

Re: Jail house Christianity and Jesus Name People
 

Ah, yes the love relationship, the same thing happened with my wife and I. Pure love, pure delight, enraptured with each other. Yet, it involved dating, talking, getting to know each other, engagement, planning, wedding and consumation, etc. Without the love, simply means and ways. But so glad that we went through the process/steps/ways/means it deepened and facilitated that wonderful intial love thing.

Re: Jail house Christianity and Jesus Name People
 

Overcoming self, usually called "self-control" can happen for most anybody, even those that don't claim to believe in Jesus or even get near water to be baptized. Folks going through AA use a "higher power" to help them overcome alcohol, many do overcome and never profess Jesus as anything.

Hey folks that really follow the teaching of the Buddha, Mohammad, Vishnu , and a pantheon of others can lead happy, healthy lives. Don't mean they are anywhere near entering the gates of The Kingdom. Don't mean they have gained or attended eternal life.

As to "Jail House religion", I see it all the time. But I also see those that are truly repentant and are baptized in the Name of Jesus and baptized with His Holy Spirit change for the better, become better folks.

Re: Jail house Christianity and Jesus Name People
 

Not knocking the ways and means. :)

Re: Jail house Christianity and Jesus Name People
 

For those that care, David Pawson is giving away free teaching on How to Be Born Again. These are free mp3 downloads.

Here is the link. His teaching is compelling, somewhat scholarly yet, very grandfatherly.

http://www.davidpawson.com/index.htm

Re: Jail house Christianity and Jesus Name People
 

That is a beautiful testimony! Yes it is Jesus all the way-

The word formula is one I am acquinted with when it comes to Baptism-
& the Apostles Doctrine, the pattern you find in the book of acts-this is what I am referring to.

But you are right there is not particular formula of God working on someone's heart, some receive a dramatic change from repentence from what others are saying on this thread.

That is great, I do not want to take away from that, and that was not the meaning of this thread.

Re: Jail house Christianity and Jesus Name People
 

Amen!

Re: Jail house Christianity and Jesus Name People
 

I have to say I agree with you.

Re: Jail house Christianity and Jesus Name People
 

My brother, David, is ALJC and lives in Anderson, Indiana...his pastor is Elder Danny St. Clair. It's a fine church with a great pastor, and David, along with others assisting him have worked with the jail ministry twice a week for 15 years.

In the past year he has baptized nearly 200 souls, with many receiving the baptism of the Holy Ghost.

He and the church have earned the respect of the authorities, and they have given David the opportunity to more or less preach at will. Some of those who have been Spirit filled teach Bible studies during the week when David is not there.

David and my SIL take food in at different times, serving full meals at Christmas and Thanksgiving, and my SIL will every now and then send homemade cookies with David.

I am so happy at the way he is letting the Lord use him...:thumbsup

Re: Jail house Christianity and Jesus Name People
 

Awesome report!

We have been running from the mid thirties to low fifties in our Detention Center #3 services on Thursday nights over the last 4 years. We are baptizing around 60 to 70 a year. I have guys that do not miss a service. It's a church. Some on the inmates have bible studies going with other inmates and they have been given one night every two weeks to have a prison wide prayer meeting.Many have received the Holy Ghost and have been baptized in Jesus Name.

One week ago a guy came into the service at 15 minutes before it ended. Sat on the front row. As soon as the altar call had been given he came up and began to talk to one of the Brother's that shares the service duties with me. He was very depressed and upset. As Bro. Mike prayed for him the Spirit began to move and I came over in time to hear him speaking in tongues. I talked to him about being baptized and he said yes. We have to go to the front desk and wait for the inmates to come up so we can take them out onto the Sally Port where the tank is. As we where standing there the new guy was told he could use the phone to call his fiancee. I was amazed because that is not the usual way things are done. He got to call and tell her how to get minutes on her cell phone to be able to talk with him when he called. That was one of the reasons for his depression. After he was baptized he asked me if it was because of the water bring cold, I asked what he meant. He said that everything was glowing! He had told me on the way out that he had never felt anything like what he felt when we had prayed. Said it was from his head to his feet! Another young man that was baptized that night asked if I'd pray that he would fine favor in court. This was a week ago. Last night he told us that when he went to court that many of the charges where thrown out and he was given 15 more days, when he thought he'd be getting years.

I have just started a bible study at the Work Release Facility (DC2). The guys there are allowed to work a shift then they have to report back to prison. I had 5 attending last Tuesday night.

Please pray for these men and facilities.

Re: Jail house Christianity and Jesus Name People
 

Thank you Barb & Rev--what you have said has greatly encouraged me! Thanks for sharing!

Re: Jail house Christianity and Jesus Name People
 

Elizabeth:

I understand what you mean when you refer to the 'sinners prayer".

It's what someone wants a sinner to repeat.....(how heartfelt is that)? But they say it, repeat after me. Basically, we will tell you how to repent (and everybody repents the same way.....I don't think so) then ask the Lord to come into your heart, now you're saved. You will be walked right through it, just repeat the prayer.

No scripture for this.

Re: Jail house Christianity and Jesus Name People
 

Whatever happened to getting all the Bible in context?

Re: Jail house Christianity and Jesus Name People
 

Repentance can include the sinners prayer. We are to repent and confess. There are so many aspects to Salvation.

And I have said this before but, in the bible nobody questioned why. Nobody said "but why do I need to be baptized"...nobody was seen or heard of putting it off for a month or so or until the do a bible study. It was always an instantaneous reaction to hearing the gospel. So while some want to quibble over what baptism does or does not do, it's biblical. It's Apostolic to include water baptism in Jesus name.

So put aside for a moment what happens, if anything, spiritually. It's biblical. It's Apostolic. It's a command. It's in the word of God. Why do it or seek to do it any other way? Or why not even care about what the bible says on it or seek to find what the bible says? Why minimalize or reduce baptism to "it doesn't matter what or how" when we have it contained in the word of God? Can we really say to God that what His word says is not that important or even to Jesus what His Apostles taught was not that important...important enough to be obeyed or be done the way they expected it to be done?

I don't need to condemn or point fingers or use pejorative language when I discuss this. I don't discuss this because I want someone in the world to NOT be saved. I discuss this because I love the one who gave Himself and gave His word.

One last thing on baptism. It is said baptism was a public witness that you have accepted Christ. I can agree to a degree, however if that is the case why then argue against baptism in Jesus name being done by someone verbally speaking in WHOSE name you are being baptized?

When we pray, in Jesus name, we are making a public confession that we can do these things in His authority. We give witness and we glorify God that way. Why would anyone then, especially claiming to be Apostolic, deride someone saying "I baptize you in the name of Jesus Christ"?

The command was two fold. You are to repent and be baptized and WE are to go out and make disciples BY baptizing. Baptism is in the name. The candidate is baptized in the name by willingly accepting that Jesus is the savior, he submits to this baptism. It was the churches duty, the command to the church to MAKE them disciples. John made disciples of those he baptized. Baptism was connected to discipleship.