Re: No Pre-existing Son... Before Christ's Birth?
 

I always appreciate your insights, Sam. You're a good guy.

Re: No Pre-existing Son... Before Christ's Birth?
 

We CAN say that we believe in a God who is a triunity
or three personas in one
but
we CANNOT say that we believe in a God who is a trinity
or three persons in one.

Does that seem a little strange to anyone here?

Re: No Pre-existing Son... Before Christ's Birth?
 

I tought we lost the triune language with the editing of A.D Urshans book.

Re: No Pre-existing Son... Before Christ's Birth?
 

Not really. It depends on what you mean by "Persons." Many Trinitarians go to length to stress that they only use the term analogously; that is, "It is as if the Son and the Father were two Persons..."

As long as no one's being pilloried or burned for what they do say, I think an open dialogue is healthy. Let's not say, "You can't say..." until we are a bit more certain about what we must say.

Of course, everything is just my humble opinion.

Re: No Pre-existing Son... Before Christ's Birth?
 

+1

:-)

Re: No Pre-existing Son... Before Christ's Birth?
 

there are some OPs that teach the Son pre-existed as the LOGOS. However I did not assert simply some OPs deny the Son pre-existed. They deny He pre-existed as a second person called Son. I believe the Son did pre-exist...pre-exist what? Pre-exist being born, being human...being the Son. How? In what Form? He pre-existed as God, the I AM, Yahweh and His logos...not as "The Son"

Re: No Pre-existing Son... Before Christ's Birth?
 

Nicea used the word Hypostasis for what Trinitarians mean today by "person", that is a consciously aware subsistance, not in the same sense as the Latin Persona or the greek Prosopon. Interesting is that Tertuallian and all the pre Nicean fathers used Persona, not Hypostasis, as far as I know

Re: No Pre-existing Son... Before Christ's Birth?
 

I believe Tertullian used the Latin "persona" as a translation for the Greek hypostasis?

Re: No Pre-existing Son... Before Christ's Birth?
 

We deny the pre-existence of the Son but we affirm the pre-existence of He who came as the Son. 2 Cor 5:19; 1 Tim 3:16 etc etc.

Re: No Pre-existing Son... Before Christ's Birth?
 

Amen.

Re: No Pre-existing Son... Before Christ's Birth?
 

So in a sense one could still say the Son was eternal - just without the added component of humanity...

At some point it seems to be more semantics than actual substantive difference.

Re: No Pre-existing Son... Before Christ's Birth?
 

The Son was NOT eternal only in the mind of God He was begotten on a certain day the scripture plainly declares. Heb.1:5-6.

Re: No Pre-existing Son... Before Christ's Birth?
 

It then begs the question; if something is eternal ONLY in the mind of God - is that anything less than reality?

Re: No Pre-existing Son... Before Christ's Birth?
 

Our praise and worship team sing it often. I promise you, we are not
trinitarian but we do love those folks. The church is full of ex-trinitarian
people. They make excellent oneness Pentecostals when the Lord opens
their understanding that they might understand the scriptures.

Blessings,

Falla39

Re: No Pre-existing Son... Before Christ's Birth?
 

That is a valid point!!!!!!!!!!!!!

His thoughts cannot fail.

Re: No Pre-existing Son... Before Christ's Birth?
 

No, because Latin has the same word "Hypostasis". Nicea was in latin

Greek was hupstasis.

[Late Latin, from Greek hupostasis : hupo-, hypo- + stasis, a standing; see stā- in Indo-European roots.]
hy'po·stat'ic (hī'pə-stāt'ĭk), hy'po·stat'i·cal adj., hy'po·stat'i·cal·ly adv.

Persona is the Latin of the greek Prosopon

Re: No Pre-existing Son... Before Christ's Birth?
 

Essentially the same thing. We are afraid to say the pre-existence of the Son because it would be confused with Trinitarianism a pre-existing Son. But I am ok with saying "the Son pre-existed" as long as it is qualified with "but not as the Son but as He who came AS the Son."

Re: No Pre-existing Son... Before Christ's Birth?
 

Again very good.

Re: No Pre-existing Son... Before Christ's Birth?
 

JESUS was the "Son" "according to the flesh", so without the begetting of flesh, there was no "eternally begotten Son", unless you have a 6 foot tall, brown haired, brown eyed man, next to GOD in eternity past, waiting to come down as the Son. That's how I understand it anyways.

-Bro. Alex

Re: No Pre-existing Son... Before Christ's Birth?
 

hmmm not just according to the flesh though. He was the Son of God. The Son is not simply a container for divinity.

Re: No Pre-existing Son... Before Christ's Birth?
 

Isn't the Son inferior to the Father? The Son was flesh, or at least that's how I always understood it. The Son was the container for divinity, so that the Father could live thru a human body, perfectly, and then die.

-Bro. Alex

Re: No Pre-existing Son... Before Christ's Birth?
 

That is one view among OPs. I don't share that view. I could not use the word "inferior" either. I believe both the Son and the Father are fully God. One with the added component of genuine humanity and one without the same.

I do not view the Son as "just" flesh or container, but God in Flesh. Even in the sense of his Humanity alone the Son was not just containing Divinity, rather He was completely Human as are we.

Re: No Pre-existing Son... Before Christ's Birth?
 

With of our views is more orthodox by OP standards?

... Bro. Alex begins taking out his torture instruments from his briefcase, begins looking around the plain stone room, and gets out his burlap robe and funny looking hat...

[[[Sinister voice]]] After this we'll have a few more questions...

-Bro. Alex

Re: No Pre-existing Son... Before Christ's Birth?
 

Can I wear my Bowlers hat for the event? It just makes me feel loved.

Re: No Pre-existing Son... Before Christ's Birth?
 

Orthodox OP catechizing and the occasional torture method to bring your crypto-trinitarian self around will be all the love you need.

:muwahaha

No but seriously, now, as I stop playing inquisitioner... What is it that you're proposing Bro. Hoover? It seems to sound as if you are trying to make a separation of persons between the Father and the Son. Why would you not see the Son as simply a role, or manifestation, that the Father took on for 33 years while HE walked in a human body? What other explanation would you have?

-Bro. Alex

Re: No Pre-existing Son... Before Christ's Birth?
 

Is He no longer the Son of God?

Re: No Pre-existing Son... Before Christ's Birth?
 

The Person of the Son is eternal because that Person is Supreme Eternal Jehovah, the Everlasting God. Jesus is exactly who God is.

Sonship primarily refers to God in time and humanity by humbling Himself and taking the form of a servant, being found in the likeness of men. This is why the Son is the image of the invisible God. God is invisible and cannot be seen. The Son, the man Christ Jesus, had a real beginning in Bethlehem as to the humanity while as to His Divinity His "goings forth are from everlasting" (Micah 5:2). There was a literal day when the sonship came into existence, and that He was begotten by the Holy Ghost.

This is why the Son is never found in the O.T. with exception to prophetic references.

Re: No Pre-existing Son... Before Christ's Birth?
 

You shouldn't use the term Son as though it is a container in the sense of my Tupperware holding today's lunch. The sonship is God humbling Himself and taking the form of a servant and not just a shell. Most Oneness authors like Bernard, Gordon MaGee etc. agree with this view.

Container/Shell theology is actually Appolinarianism which is wrong.

Re: No Pre-existing Son... Before Christ's Birth?
 

You see the problem with this goes back to understanding God's original design and purpose for man in Genesis 1:26. God designed man to have dominion, to have authority over God's creation. Adam failed and so the prophecy of Genesis 3:16 gives the promise that the seed of the woman (virgin birth) would come and crush satan, regaining the authority. God came as a man to accomplish this task Himself on our behalf and continue to reign presently, and was restored to the position of total authority (MT 28:18-19). Now God is continuing to rule and reign in this humanity on our behalf as the ultimate King.

Jesus was a real man and not just some manifestation that disappeared when He ascended to Heaven. Some Oneness teach as though there were three consecutive manifestations of God and that the Father was the O.T. manifestation, the Son the N.T. and now the Holy Ghost and the Son and Father are gone. This is not accurate.

God is remaining the Father, the Eternal Spirit in heaven and everywhere else while simultaneously manifesting Himself in all His fullness through the Son of God on earth. This is why the Son of Man is on earth and in heaven at the same time (John 3:13), because as to His humanity He was on earth and as to the Divinity He is everywhere present, together with millions gathered in His Name around the globe.

Re: No Pre-existing Son... Before Christ's Birth?
 

Amen, Jeremy, I may go a bit further though.

This is a good article on the distinction between Father and Son written by Oneness Pentecostal Jason Dulle. http://www.apostolic.net/biblicalstu...tsymposium.htm

Re: No Pre-existing Son... Before Christ's Birth?
 

Many Oneness Pentecostals see the Father/Son distinction as being internal to Jesus Christ http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z...istinction.gif

Re: No Pre-existing Son... Before Christ's Birth?
 

I agree with this illustration from Dulle - showing the Father/Son distinction is EXTERNAL to Jesus Christ.

http://i194.photobucket.com/albums/z...thersymbol.gif

I should add, the diagram comes with this disclaimer from Dulle

This diagram of the Son should not be understood to mean that God merely dwelt in Christ like a person dwells in a house. While God was in Christ, the union of the divine and human natures surpasses that of mere indwelling. There was a metaphysical union of the divine and human natures to form one theandric existence; a union that preserved the properties of each nature, yet united them into one person. The metaphysical union is expressed in the diagram by the absence of the black line around the yellow circle (God).

Re: No Pre-existing Son... Before Christ's Birth?
 

Stephen Eureka,

Very interesting. I like the disclaimer from Dulle. Have just read it and not thought it completely through but I have struggled to clearly understand in my own mind the dual nature of Christ as man and God and this seems like one of the best explanations I have heard.

(By the way I thought of ou earlier tonight when my wife came in the room and informed me that our Hoover vacuum cleaner that is less than a year old just bit the dust. They don't make you like they used to. This replaced our expensive Dyson that only lasted a couple of years.)

Re: No Pre-existing Son... Before Christ's Birth?
 

Glad you enjoyed Jason's article. It helped me a lot as well. Warning! ... if one's goal, or measure of truth is to get as far as possible from those evil Trinitarians it is a BAD view!

About your vacuum... that sucks.

Re: No Pre-existing Son... Before Christ's Birth?
 

Very articulate and correct.:thumbsup:thumbsup

Re: No Pre-existing Son... Before Christ's Birth?
 

I congradulate you on your articulate posts on this subject. :thumbsup:thumbsup

Re: No Pre-existing Son... Before Christ's Birth?
 

Alex, what's happened to you lately, Bro? I don't even know you anymore, man! :sad

Re: No Pre-existing Son... Before Christ's Birth?
 

:ursofunny

Re: No Pre-existing Son... Before Christ's Birth?
 

Jason's diagram disclaimer supplied by Steven and affirmed by CC1 states the following:
A breakdown of Jason's disclaimer seems to reveal that SILENCE is GOLDEN in the establishment of philosophical opinion.

This diagram of the Son should not be understood to mean that God merely dwelt in Christ like a person dwells in a house.

Jason's assertion that it was not MERELY an indwelling requires he extend his opinion without scriptural witness to help ward off those who would think in terms of either INDWELLING of a person OR INDWELLING of a flesh suit.

While God was in Christ, the union of the divine and human natures surpasses that of mere indwelling.
It's nice to say SURPASSES but when the statement is done, it is fully established by Jason's opinion in the surroundings of academia, not an assertion established in scripture.


There was a metaphysical union of the divine and human natures to form one theandric existence;
It's a thoughtful concept, a deep philosophical dig, but it is a postion established from the silence of a man's imagination not witness of scripture.


a union that preserved the properties of each nature, yet united them into one person.
Supposition at very best. So many scriptural departures from this "preserved properties of each nature" that the next thing his disclaimer really should add is "the divine nature was so perfectly hidden from the human nature that neither had any real idea about the other".....maybe he'll insert that personal opinion later as well.


The metaphysical union is expressed in the diagram by the absence of the black line around the yellow circle (God).

I'm happy for the present confidence in the metaphysical union position and the fully preserved dual nature position because to hold these as establishing one's confidence will also force the proponents of this opinion to ask "How is Jesus my example? my kinsman redeemer"

Our Lord and Saviour is the Son of God.
Quoting the testimony of the voice that on two occasions directly spoke:

This is my beloved Son, in whom, I am well pleased.

With the testimony of the voice speaking from the cloud to back me up.....I am feeling strangely confident to declare God's Son was a person with a will of his own, separate from his father which begat him. But I do accept that all I have is the simple reading of scripture to confirm this position.

Re: No Pre-existing Son... Before Christ's Birth?
 

Some folks just like being wordy. Neck's Dad who was known as a great Godehead teacher( I had one exception with him but I won't go into that here) was teaching on the subject in depth at a meeting. An AG lady was present and he was trying to reach her. After a couple of hours of excellent teaching on the subject he finished. Standing on the steps with the Pastor as folks were leaving the AG lady shook their hands and said I just don't understand what you were saying. He replied "God who is Spirit that is everywhere made a body and climbed in it so He could die for our sins and we could see Him." She said take me to the water.:thumbsup Sometimes the simplicity is overlooked.:thumbsup Being a teacher is NOT making the simple complicated but making the complicated simple.