Re: Would Jesus And The Apostles Recognize The Chu
 

Paul was writing about the lost. When writing to the saints he exhorts along this line:

1: Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. 2 Cor. 7:1

So how much filthiness of the flesh and spirit should remain? None! Its a daily walk. Abide in Yeshua. Take up the cross and crucify flesh.

This is the normal Christian life. For Christians to sin should be the exception not the rule.

Re: Would Jesus And The Apostles Recognize The Chu
 

Absolutely. It should be obvious to the sinner, to where he acknowledges his sin before God when coming to Him in prayer.

Re: Would Jesus And The Apostles Recognize The Chu
 

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

note from Jamieson-Fauset-Brown: that we have no sin- "Have," not "have had," must refer not to the past sinful life while unconverted, but to the present state wherein believers have sin even still.

We are only perfected, in the literal sense of the word, in the final redemption of the saints... when we all go home.

Re: Would Jesus And The Apostles Recognize The Chu
 

Re: Would Jesus And The Apostles Recognize The Chu
 

The Commentary like most Christian literature does not know the truth of Biblical perfection.

Apostolic Friends,

A closer look will be helpful.

If we say that we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 1 John 1:8

Standing alone this would seem to say sin can't be overcome.
But it isnt standing alone!

Check out THE CONTEXT.

If WE SAY we have fellowship with him AND WALK IN DARKNESS we lie and do not the truth.
But if we walk in the light as he is in the light we have fellowship one with another and the blood of Jesus Christ his son cleanseth us from all sin.
If we say that we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
If we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1 John 1:6-9

Who is John speaking to in verse 8?
He addresses THOSE IN VERSE 6 WHO ALTHOUGH THEY WERE WALKING IN SIN THEY WERE CLAIMING A RIGHT STANDING-FELLOWSHIP WITH YESHUA!

THEY WERE DECEIVING THEMSELVES.
John was trying to open the eyes of those who denied their sins instead of REPENTING of them.

He by no means was implying to the body at large that they couldnt stop sinning.
He makes Gods expectation clear here:

My little children these things write I unto you THAT YE SIN NOT. And IF any man sin we have an advocate with the Father Jesus Christ the righteous. 2 John 1

So to the HOLY SPIRIT to not sin is THE RULE. But IF any one would sin they can confess and ask for mercy.
So 1 John 1:8 cannot be used as support against BIBLICAL PERFECTION.

John was not telling the same people not to sin then turning and saying if they said they were not sinning they were liars.

Re: Would Jesus And The Apostles Recognize The Chu
 

The First Covenant was not Torah? Do you mean the Mt. Sinai Covenant? Clarify?

Re: Would Jesus And The Apostles Recognize The Chu
 

We don't circumsize, but the Torah commands it... I wear clothing with different fabrics in it- do you believe this is a sin? Michael's question I believe will also further help clarify your teaching for our examination, I look forward to reading your responses.

-Bro. Alex

Re: Would Jesus And The Apostles Recognize The Chu
 

At Mt Sinai, they agreed to do anything He would tell them to do, not knowing what it was He would ask of them. Torah is what He asked.

Exodus 19:3-8

The 10 commandments are given after they people have already agreed to do what God had spoken. All he'd spoken at that point was that they were to keep His covenant and they would be a peculiar treasure unto Him. They agreed to the terms of the covenant without knowing what they were going to be.

Obviously, the 10 commandments are the entirety of the Torah.

Re: Would Jesus And The Apostles Recognize The Chu
 

The problem I've often seen in some apostolic churches that do not have small group ministries, is that some oppose these groups because they see them as a possible undermining of the pastor's authority. If many men are teaching throughout the assembly, and even called of GOD to teach and alternate teaching on Sunday mornings, this can tamper with the one-Pastor model so many have become accustomed to. Do you agree?

-Bro. Alex

Re: Would Jesus And The Apostles Recognize The Chu
 

Yes, context is important and well-done in shedding full light on this particular passage in light. You're doctrine of perfection is quite flawed, however. Perfect people still sin. Perfect people still have disease and sickness. We struggle daily with sin, and if you tell me you have no sin, and for you, this is rare, I see you just as those in 1 John that are the true ones that "walk in darkness" and deceive yourself.

Yes, any who advocates and promotes sinful behavior as an acceptable norm is a heretic, but likewise any who damns people into self-abuse because they think there are perfect people out there is worse than an infidel in my book.

Re: Would Jesus And The Apostles Recognize The Chu
 

I personally don't personally. But I do agree that there are (sadly) churches with this complex. I do think there is a responsibility to make sure the believers adhere to doctrine, and accountability should be in place about what is being taught. There are ways to do that though, instead of just abstaining entirely. These churches are being left behind. Small groups are what most churches were started on, how can they abandon it now?

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I believe you're exactly right. Sinning is "missing the mark". However, I was in the military. Before one can "miss the mark" a mark must be set. What is that "mark"? I believe that "mark" is the moral Law of God. Every command in the Torah can be categorized under one of the Ten Commandments of God's Law. When the ceremonial law is set aside, when the civil and judicial laws of Israel found in the Torah are set aside, when the Levitical laws of the priesthood are set aside, you have the moral Law of God, the Ten Commandments. In short the commandments can be divided into two categories. The first shows us how to honor God. The second shows us how to honor our neighbor.

If something breaks God's Moral Law (one of the Ten Commandments) it is sin. Nothing more... nothing less.

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So do you keep Sabbath?

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This is a good example of what I am writing about. Here you are saying that one who teaches what the Lord Jesus Christ and the apostles taught is "damning people to self abuse" whatever you mean by that.

You should consider that those who are teaching you cannot cease from sin are the deceivers leading men to destruction in Gehenna.

Whats wrong with teaching what Yeshua taught? Did he teach it was to hard to obey his words?

7: But which of you, having a servant plowing or feeding cattle, will say unto him by and by, when he is come from the field, Go and sit down to meat?
8: And will not rather say unto him, Make ready wherewith I may sup, and gird thyself, and serve me, till I have eaten and drunken; and afterward thou shalt eat and drink?
9: Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I trow not.
10: So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do. Luke 17:7-10

If you do all Yeshua commands you to do that does not make you something special. You would simply be doing what you were to do. There is no controversy from the New Testament teachings as to whether YHWH will accept into Heaven people with sin in their lives.

The weak perverted teachings of men would say "of course you cant be perfect". This doctrine gets you called "worse than an infidel".

Yet what did Yeshua say?

Be ye therefore perfect even as your Father in Heaven is perfect. Matt. 5:48

His word did not go away. It will stand till the day of judgment.

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I don't buy it.

American churches spend upwards of 70% or more of their revenue on buildings in the form of mortgages, building funds, maintenance etc. That leaves 30% or less. The remaining is typically used to sustain the pastor with a small portion going for charity, missions, and evangelism. Jesus said where man's treasure is his heart will be also. American churches are in love with their buildings. These are like idol temples, adored, revered, held sacred. They are beasts that tame the church, lulls them to sleep, breeds a spectator mentality, violates the clear commands of the Lord as delivered by Paul regarding what a church meeting should be. The fastest growing network of churches in the world are in areas where the church is forced to use home based networks. The American church is spoiled. If we realized that if we let go of our precious buildings and properties and dedicated ourselves as the original church did 2000 years ago we could set American on fire with the Gospel. Cell groups are not conducive in most models. Typically cell groups are heavily regulated because pastors are paranoid and they become little more than fellowship. We're talking "churches without walls". When a home based church becomes too big for all to participate, when it becomes so big there are obviously more than 3 qualified elders with the gift of prophecy... it's time to pray and get a vision to divide to multiply... then you have two home based groups. When each become too large again divide, now you have four.... then eight... then 16.... then 32.... then 64. This is how Rome was turned upside down with the Gospel of Jesus Christ. They didn't hunker down and dig in.... they expanded and multiplied. Even in areas and periods when the church didn't face persecution... this is how it was done.

I don't believe gathering in a larger body on occasion (perhaps once a month) is a sin... what I am saying is that the model we have isn't the model that turned the world upside down. We don't need to wait until we're persecuted to do it. We can do it and do it now. God is beckoning.. It's time to unleash the church.

You have to read the Words of Paul again. Paul plainly stated that those were the Lord's commands regarding church gathering and body ministry. Two, or at most three, were to deliver anointed teaching (prophecy). This was to be done in a way in so that if one sitting by had a revelation or an understanding they could be permitted to speak and share it. Try doing that in today's churches. In today's churches pastors "sermonize". If you study the "sermon" you will notice the homiletic behind the "sermon" is largely pattered and based on Aristotelian rhetoric. The Greek philosophers would gather their people together employ emotional pleas of prepared rhetoric using illustrations, and allegories. In the Old Testament messages were delivered impromptu and addressed current issues. Peter didn't "preach a sermon" on Pentecost... Peter delivered a message from God. Peter's speaking was prepared with the notion of persuasion through the use of smooth words and men's wisdom. But rather it was instant, from the heart, and full of the power and demonstration of the Holy Ghost. Elders should bring scripture to teach... however "sermonizing" should be discouraged.

Here's another issue to address... "preaching". Notice what the Bible says...

Acts 20:7
And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.

Paul didn't stand up in front of the crowd and rant and sermonize, rave, sweat and spit at them. The word for "preached" here is "dialegomai". It means to "reason with", it's the root that we get our English word "dialogue" from. Paul didn't rant as a one man show until midnight. No! He "reasoned with" the people, speaking, teaching, they asked questions, shared their thoughts, Paul laid emphasis on truths, and all were edified. What we do in our living rooms when we have company over and talk about the Word of God until 1 AM is far closer to how Paul preached and shared the Gospel than the traditional Aristotelian sermon.

Return to the Bible. Return to the New Testament pattern. Return to the first model of the Church that saw the greatest expansion of Christianity in human history. Get the guts to abandon the buildings, the offices, the salaries, the titles, and all that man takes glory for... and embrace... simple church. It can flourish in peace time, and nothing can stop it during persecution. The institutional church will not see the power of this model until their buildings are taken away from them by a tyrannical government. If we act now... we can turn our communities and perhaps even our nation around. God shouldn't have to take these things from us using persecution to get us to reach our world!

I digress.

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Neubill, are you of Jewish decent? I ask this because half of my wife's family is Jewish. And let me tell you... there's nothing sillier than some Gentile who worships some facade of Judaism and acts Jewish. Most are just insecure and want to appear smarter than they are. LOL I watched a Rabbi (a good friend, Rabbi Kopmar) chew a "Messianic" Christian up and spit them out. hehehe

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You have to remember that the law was summed up as follows:

In Matthew, Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

In Mark, And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments [is], Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this [is] the first commandment. And the second [is] like, [namely] this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

In Luke, And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.

And you also have to remember that there are far, far, far more than 10 commandments that were given. You can't weigh against those and exclude the rest.

Re: Would Jesus And The Apostles Recognize The Chu
 

Yes. In fact I do. Do you?

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God bless you nahkoe.

There are several types of laws in the "Law of Moses". It must be stated that every "Law of Moses" was based on a "Law of God". Every ceremonial law was to separate God's people from idolatry and false gods, pointing them to their greater fulfillment, Christ Jesus. Every Levitical Law was to keep the priests clean from idolatry and false gods, pointing them to Jesus Christ. Every civil law of Israel was to ensure that Israelites loved their neighbors and operated in a just society. Christ fulfilled the ceremonial and Levitical laws. The civil laws of Israel are not in place because Israel is no longer a nation (don't confuse modern Israel with biblical Israel). What still stands is the Law of God... the Ten Commandments.

These can be summed up in and categorized by two principles:

The Ten Commandments:

I. Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. How is this done?

1. You shall have no other gods before Me.
2. You shall not make idols or bow down to them, nor serve them.
3. You shall not use the name of the Lord your God disrespectfully.
4. Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.

II. Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. How is this done?

5. Honor your father and your mother.
6. You shall not murder.
7. You shall not commit adultery.
8. You shall not steal.
9. You shall not lie about your neighbor.
10. You shall not lust for your neighbor's house, or his wife, or any
thing that is your neighbor's.

No man can be living in violation of the Law of God and be saved. This is "SIN". Wearing a wedding band isn't a sin. Women cutting their hair isn't a sin. Going to a baseball game with your son isn't a sin. Smoking a cigar when your baby boy was born or with a friend after dinner isn't a sin. Having a glass of fine brandy on your front porch on a cool fall evening isn't a sin. Some of these things can be "weights" that bog us down spiritually by stealing time, money, health, or attention from the Kingdom. But these are not sins.

Sin is defined by the big Ten. It's possible for a Christian to live above sin.

Do you worship other god's next to God?
Do you worship idols or "dabble" in the occult?
Do you use the name of Jesus irreverently?
Do you neglect the Sabbath?
Do you dishonor your mother and father?
Do you kill people or do you advocate killing?
Do you commit adultery?
Do you steal?
Do you lie?
Do you live a life obsessed with what others have to the exclusion of being thankful for what you have?

If you answered "No" to every question above - you're living above sin. If you answered yes to one (or more) of those questions... well... now you know the mark you've missed and perhaps some repenting should be considered.

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You don't have to convince me..I know what sin is and isn't.

I stand by the fact that the entire law was summed up by Jesus as I stated above.

I stand by the fact that there is more to the Torah than the 10 commandments.

And I stand by the fact that the entire law was fulfilled.

And I agree with Neubill that sin is transgression of the Torah.

And I agree with you that the 10 commandments fit rather neatly into the 2 greatest commandments.

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How and when do you keep it?

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I'm not Aquila but...

Roughly sundown Friday to sundown Saturday. For no other reason than that it works well. I'm extremely laid back about it though.

How? It's just a time of rest. I spend the time thinking about God, vs school and work and money and everything that needs to be done. I often do Bible study during the Sabbath. It's a very blessed downtime from everything that needs doing.

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I was just sharing my understanding.

I'll demonstrate why I believe this isn't sound logic. Jesus said that you are to love God with all that you are and your neighbor as yourself. Without referencing a single one of the Ten Commandments please tell me how that's done...

Most can't deliver when I ask that. My point is that Jesus didn't "sum up" the Law in what he said, he clarified the Law and it's over all aim with what he said. He didn't erase or replace anything. He simply clarified.

In addition, what Jesus said didn't even address the "entire law" because almost two thirds of the Law is ceremonial or relating to the civil code of ancient Israel. This leads us to your next statement...

I stand by the fact that there is more to the Torah than the 10 commandments.

That depends on how you define Torah. You see most of us Gentiles think of the Torah as the Five Books of Moses. And academically, that's an acceptable answer. However, to a Jew the Torah is the Law of God. Everything in the Law of Moses has the purpose of sustaining one of these Ten Commandments. You can take every law in the Torah and you can find that each one of them can be categorized under one of the Ten Commandments. The Law of Moses is an unfolding of the Law of God to the nation of Israel. The Law of Moses is no longer necessary because... we are not the nation of Israel. We are a spiritual Israel who is called to obey the Law of God without the carnal ordinances of Moses. So the Ten Commandments still stand.

And I stand by the fact that the entire law was fulfilled.

Yes, the entire Law, including the Ten Commandments, were fulfilled in Christ. Not so that we who are saved no longer have to obey the Ten Commandments... but so that he could purchase salvation for those of us who were lost. Now we are saved to live unto the Lord... by obeying the Law of God. Not ceremonial or civil codes of Israel and all that junk. But we are to live in harmony with the very fabric of God's morality and Holiness. And this is expressed in the Law of God.

And I agree with Neubill that sin is transgression of the Torah.

Again, that depends on how you define Torah. Some would say that if you eat a ham sandwich you've sinned. Well... that was a law of ceremonial cleanness in the Law of Moses designed to keep Israel from partaking in pagan feasts which featured swine's flesh. It's purpose was to uphold the Commandment, "You shall have no other gods before Me." Now Christ has fulfilled the ceremonial law that was being used by the Pharisees to bludgeon the people... but the Law of God, "You shall have no other gods before Me.", still stands.

I thought that was pretty cool too. ;)

Re: Would Jesus And The Apostles Recognize The Chu
 

This is something else that I have given a lot of thought to: I don't believe Jesus would fit into our 'church system' - much of what we do in out church services has nothing to do with Him.

Ok, if Jesus came to our church He would be wearing a robe, sandals, have a beard, and have a fro or slightly longer hair than many of our leaders approve of; so, what do you think would happen. Do you think He would be invited to the platform as is the custom in many of our churches?

Re: Would Jesus And The Apostles Recognize The Chu
 

The Commandment is,

Exodus 20:8-11
8Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it."

On the seventh day (Saturdays) I don't work. I don't do anything professional, work on the yard, take out the trash, work on the car, or anything like that. In fact, I make it holy (separate) by making it a time for me and God to commune. I find it best to get away from all the Sabbath breakers by going fishing. I normally stay until sundown to ensure that I've fulfilled the Law. My wife doesn't seem to understand any of this of course, but I'm still praying for her. :p

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Nope.

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Actually the Sabbath begins at 6:30 pm on Friday and ends 6:30 pm on Saturday: hope you're not shortchanging yourself or God.

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Oh....and the fishing, o my, that would be considered 'labor' so is not permissible; and, don't forget that on the Sabbath one is not allowed to go any farther that one can walk in a day.

Re: Would Jesus And The Apostles Recognize The Chu
 

You're right! I need to head out Friday night and not come back until Saturday night. Oh boy, wait until my wife hears how sanctified I'm going to be! :lol

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Fishing isn't labor... fishing is rest. http://www.clipartof.com/images/emot..._at_a_lake.gif

Ahhh.... Oh, lookie there... I gotta bite! http://forums.footballguys.com/forum...ault/fish2.gif

And I get around the walking clause entirely because I don't walk on the Sabbath at all. If you see what appears to be me walking to my fishing hole on Saturdays, be advised: I'm not walking - I'm ambling. And I've been known to use roller skates to get back and forth from my chair and the fridge if I stay home. :winkgrin

Re: Would Jesus And The Apostles Recognize The Chu
 

Deut 6:4-5

Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

Verse 5 reads a little differently in the Hebrew.

And desire, breathe after, love and delight in this same Yahveh God with the totality of your heart, intellect, wisdom, emotions, will and purpose and with the totality of your breath, life, and soul, and with the totality of your strength.

That's not a to do list. That's what He wants. This is the first commandment.

If you love Him, you'll find out what He desires, and you'll do that. That's contained in the Torah.

I know I'm leaving off the neighbor bit. That's included in the Torah though, there are all sorts of "do this" commands there in addition to the "thou shalt nots" in the 10 commandments. Leviticus 19:10, 13, 14, 15....(just the page I happened to have open) I'm staying up too late anyhow, I can't go into all of that right now.

I never said he erased or replaced anything. Every law contained in the Torah supports what He said. He did sum the law up. Love God, love your neighbor. If you do those two things, you don't have to worry so much about the what because it'll naturally be what you're doing. If you love God, you're going to find out what He wants and desires, and you're going to do it. If you love your neighbor, you're going to help them when they need help, you're not going to be nasty to them, you're not going to do things to them that you wouldn't want someone doing to you.

I don't think it matters much how you define the Torah, there's more to it than the 10 commandments either way you describe it here. There's more to the first 5 books than the 10 commandments, and there's more to the law of God than the 10 commandments.

You can take every law in the Torah and you can find that each one of them can be categorized under one of the Ten Commandments.

And you can take every one of the laws in the Torah, and every one of the 10 commandments (redundant to say..I know..) and they can all be categorized under what Jesus said. So I don't get your point.

Of course the 10 commandments still stand.

Right.

I've never really heard of defining the Torah in two different ways. I have to admit it's an interesting concept. One that doesn't make any sense to me, but that's ok.

I think in the end we're saying the same things. Maybe. Except for that defining the Torah two ways thing. I still don't get that. The Torah is the instruction and teaching. It's contained in the Pentateuch.

Ok wait. I googled. Maybe I get what you're saying. Are you talking about the possible definition that includes the oral traditions as well?

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Show me scripture for that. lol

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I thought it began at sundown Friday and ended at sundown Saturday so the exact timing changes from week to week.

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I think they hold a thread up and when they can't see it the sabbath begins, or ends. At least that is my understanding, so you are correct that the time would change from week to week.