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-   -   09-09-09 (https://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?t=26143)

Ferd 09-10-2009 01:07 PM
Re: 09-09-09
 
I thought this was a thread about 090909?

oh well.

Walks_in_islam 09-10-2009 01:24 PM
Re: 09-09-09
 
Only got here because the example text appeared to have a discrepency. BUT...that's what I thought. No real answer? LOL

Falla39 09-10-2009 02:03 PM
Re: 09-09-09
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by TK Burk (Post 799147)
That just proves what a great day that day is!! :thumbsup
Bro. Burk,
You are TOO kind!:heart
Blessings,

Falla39

mfblume 09-10-2009 02:07 PM
Re: 09-09-09
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam (Post 799249)
OOOOOOOH I see. So it is not a literal translation. A minor inconsistancy. Wow, I am in the midst of scholars. I am not trying to prove the bible inaccurate.
Riiiiiggghhhtttt.

Quote:
I have questions about what appear to be inconsistancies in the texts (although the "roman time" and "jewish time" thing makes a bit of sense I guess)

Since the two of you are here, please explain then to me which version of events happened on THIS day:

1. Who was actually there? 1 woman, 2 women, or 3 women?
2. Was the stone removed before they arrived or after arrival?
3. Was it still dark or daylight?
4. Did the women leave and not tell anyone because they were afraid or did they tell the disciples or did they run into Jesus after they left THEN went to tell the disciples?
5. Were there (2) angels, (1) angel, or (no) angels?
We are intended to put it all together and realize some accounts mentioned some of the people there and others mentioned others. The truth is, all the people mentioned in all accounts were there.

By the way, why does the Koran teach men to beat their wives?
Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all)."
Qur’an 4:34

"If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, Take the evidence of four (Reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them, or Allah ordain for them some (other) way."
Qur’an 4:15
Why does the Koran promote hatred of Christians?
"O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust." Qur’an 5:51

"O ye who believe! take not for friends and protectors those who take your religion for a mockery or sport,- whether among those who received the Scripture before you, or among those who reject Faith; but fear ye Allah, if ye have faith (indeed)."
Qur’an 5:57

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."
Qur’an 9:29

"Those who reject (Truth), among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein (for aye). They are the worst of creatures."
Qur’an 98:6

Walks_in_islam 09-11-2009 01:17 AM
Re: 09-09-09
 
We are intended to put it all together and realize some accounts mentioned some of the people there and others mentioned others. The truth is, all the people mentioned in all accounts were there.

You are? Where is this idea of what you are intended to do spelled out again? You are now "the one who determines what the truth is" now? I thought the truth was spelled out in the words. What the words say and what you say appear to be different.

By the way, why does the Koran teach men to beat their wives?

Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all)."
Qur’an 4:34

By the way, why does the bible teach Christians to beat their children?

He who spares the rod hates his son

Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die

BUT: The good news is "Outdated language used to justify corporal punishment of children is set to be removed from new translations of the Christian Bible in Norway". What's a jot or tittle here and there? It has already been removed hasn't it? LOL

Your example:

"If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, Take the evidence of four (Reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them, or Allah ordain for them some (other) way."
Qur’an 4:15

You left out this part:

"And those who launch a charge against chaste women, and produce not four witnesses (to support their allegations),- flog them with eighty stripes; and reject their evidence ever after: for such men are wicked transgressors"

What is nice about this Surah is that unless (4) independent witnesses are found, the word of the woman is taken over the accusations of the accuser and the requirement is for the accuser to be flogged.

BUT: It could be worse for them. They could be under the laws spelled out in the bible:

And the man that commits adultery with another man's wife, even he that commits adultery with his neighbor's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death. Lev 20:10

OH even worse - if a new husband accuses his wife of not being a virgin (bible):

But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel:
Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die

Or she could be a rape victim under the terms of the bible:

If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her;
Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you. Being a rape victim gets you the death penalty?

You were saying what again about the Quran?

Why does the Koran promote hatred of Christians?

The Quran does not promote hatred of Christians. It promotes intolerance of those who have the words in front of them and then choose to not follow them.

What the Quran says about Christians:

Also from those who said, "We are Christian," we took their covenant. But they disregarded some of the commandments given to them.

If only they would uphold the Torah and the Gospel, and what is sent down to them herein from their Lord, they would be showered with blessings from above them and from beneath their feet. Some of them are righteous, but many of them are evildoers.
Say, "O people of the scripture, you have no basis until you uphold the Torah, and the Gospel, and what is sent down to you herein from your Lord." For sure, these revelations from your Lord will cause many of them to plunge deeper into transgression and disbelief. Therefore, do not feel sorry for the disbelieving people
Surely, those who believe, those who are Jewish, the converts, and the Christians; any of them who (1) believe in GOD and (2) believe in the Last Day, and (3) lead a righteous life, have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.
Say, "O people of the scripture, do not transgress the limits of your religion beyond the truth, and do not follow the opinions of people who have gone astray, and have misled multitudes of people; they are far astray from the right path."
Condemned are those who disbelieved among the Children of Israel, by the tongue of David and Jesus, the son of Mary. This is because they disobeyed and transgressed.
They did not enjoin one another from committing evil. Miserable indeed is what they did.
You would see many of them allying themselves with those who disbelieve. Miserable indeed is what their hands have sent forth on behalf of their souls. GOD is angry with them and, consequently, they will abide forever in retribution.
And you will find that the closest people in friendship to the believers are those who say, "We are Christian."

Does not sound like this is teaching hatred to me. Perhaps you are "re-interpreting" like you did earlier with the bible.

"Why should we not believe in GOD, and in the truth that has come to us, and hope that our Lord may admit us with the righteous people?"
GOD has rewarded them for saying this; He will admit them into gardens with flowing streams. They abide therein forever. Such is the reward for the righteous.

Does not sound like hatred to me

Your example:

"O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust." Qur’an 5:51

Alas How many times has this been shown to be true?

"O ye who believe! take not for friends and protectors those who take your religion for a mockery or sport,- whether among those who received the Scripture before you, or among those who reject Faith; but fear ye Allah, if ye have faith (indeed)."
Qur’an 5:57

Judging from your e-tone of mockery while dodging the discrepencies that were brough up I take it we won't become the best of friends LOL

"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."
Qur’an 9:29

"Those who reject (Truth), among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein (for aye). They are the worst of creatures."
Qur’an 98:6

Last but not least, to true Christians - the Quran teaches:

Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve

Does not sound like hatred to me. Maybe you "interpret" hatred like you "interpret" that you are "intended to put different versions of stories from the bible together"

mfblume 09-11-2009 10:12 AM
Re: 09-09-09
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam (Post 799486)
We are intended to put it all together and realize some accounts mentioned some of the people there and others mentioned others. The truth is, all the people mentioned in all accounts were there.

You are? Where is this idea of what you are intended to do spelled out again? You are now "the one who determines what the truth is" now? I thought the truth was spelled out in the words. What the words say and what you say appear to be different.
What kind of answer is that? It is common sense to put the accounts together. It's so simple, but if you look for errors you will contrive them. But it is all answered by common sense. It's like the sign over Jesus' head on the cross. Each account says something different. The truth is that we are to put all the accounts together to get the full quotation of the superscription.

Quote:
By the way, why does the Koran teach men to beat their wives?

Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all)."
Qur’an 4:34

By the way, why does the bible teach Christians to beat their children?

He who spares the rod hates his son

Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die

BUT: The good news is "Outdated language used to justify corporal punishment of children is set to be removed from new translations of the Christian Bible in Norway". What's a jot or tittle here and there? It has already been removed hasn't it? LOL
THE GOOD NEWS? It is not even a translation. It is a paraphrasing. Come on, know your stuff a bit better.

Quote:
Your example:

"If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, Take the evidence of four (Reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them, or Allah ordain for them some (other) way."
Qur’an 4:15

You left out this part:

"And those who launch a charge against chaste women, and produce not four witnesses (to support their allegations),- flog them with eighty stripes; and reject their evidence ever after: for such men are wicked transgressors"
Leaving it out or not, your "holy" book tells you to beat your wives. Why do you distract attention away from the beating of wives?

Quote:
What is nice about this Surah is that unless (4) independent witnesses are found, the word of the woman is taken over the accusations of the accuser and the requirement is for the accuser to be flogged.

BUT: It could be worse for them. They could be under the laws spelled out in the bible:

And the man that commits adultery with another man's wife, even he that commits adultery with his neighbor's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death. Lev 20:10

OH even worse - if a new husband accuses his wife of not being a virgin (bible):

But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel:
Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die

Or she could be a rape victim under the terms of the bible:

If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her;
Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you. Being a rape victim gets you the death penalty?
She is not a rape victim. You miss the whole point of the law. A rape victim cries out. A woman who claims rape and yet did not cry out has lied. You are looking for faults in the bible. You are not honestly reading it to learn what it actually says.

Quote:
You were saying what again about the Quran?
It teaches you to beat your wives. And you cannot justify it. Spanking children is a far cry from beating wives. And under the New Covenant there is no slaying of anybody since Christ has come and His blood can solve such errors that were not solved under law. Christians do not keep Law of Moses, anyway. But Islamics beat their wives. Find something like that in the New Testament.

Quote:
Why does the Koran promote hatred of Christians?

The Quran does not promote hatred of Christians. It promotes intolerance of those who have the words in front of them and then choose to not follow them.
Right. Christians who choose not to believe the ways of Islam, you mean.

Quote:
What the Quran says about Christians:

Also from those who said, "We are Christian," we took their covenant. But they disregarded some of the commandments given to them.

If only they would uphold the Torah and the Gospel, and what is sent down to them herein from their Lord, they would be showered with blessings from above them and from beneath their feet. Some of them are righteous, but many of them are evildoers.
Say, "O people of the scripture, you have no basis until you uphold the Torah, and the Gospel, and what is sent down to you herein from your Lord." For sure, these revelations from your Lord will cause many of them to plunge deeper into transgression and disbelief. Therefore, do not feel sorry for the disbelieving people
Surely, those who believe, those who are Jewish, the converts, and the Christians; any of them who (1) believe in GOD and (2) believe in the Last Day, and (3) lead a righteous life, have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve.
Say, "O people of the scripture, do not transgress the limits of your religion beyond the truth, and do not follow the opinions of people who have gone astray, and have misled multitudes of people; they are far astray from the right path."
Condemned are those who disbelieved among the Children of Israel, by the tongue of David and Jesus, the son of Mary. This is because they disobeyed and transgressed.
They did not enjoin one another from committing evil. Miserable indeed is what they did.
You would see many of them allying themselves with those who disbelieve. Miserable indeed is what their hands have sent forth on behalf of their souls. GOD is angry with them and, consequently, they will abide forever in retribution.
And you will find that the closest people in friendship to the believers are those who say, "We are Christian."

Does not sound like this is teaching hatred to me. Perhaps you are "re-interpreting" like you did earlier with the bible.
Re-interpreting the bible? lol. And you claimed the woman who cried not was a rape victim? You do not honestly read the Bible enough to even be able to learn its truth, and you tell me I am re-interpreting the Bible? The Koran CHANGES partway through its own text!

From:
And you will find that the closest people in friendship to the believers are those who say, "We are Christian."
To:
"O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust." Qur’an 5:51
Mohammed changed his mind after the book was not even finished!

The fact is that the New Testament does not tell us to hate anyone or treat anyone badly as your Koran teaches you, even if people do not accept the Gospel. It tells us to love our enemies. Your "holy" book tells you to dislike them. Can't wiggle out of this one. Your book teaches hatred.

continued...

mfblume 09-11-2009 10:12 AM
Re: 09-09-09
 
Quote:
Koran promotes hatred and violence.
"Why should we not believe in GOD, and in the truth that has come to us, and hope that our Lord may admit us with the righteous people?"
GOD has rewarded them for saying this; He will admit them into gardens with flowing streams. They abide therein forever. Such is the reward for the righteous.

Does not sound like hatred to me

Your example:

"O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust." Qur’an 5:51

Alas How many times has this been shown to be true?
Do not change the topic. Jesus told us to love our enemies and those who despitefully use us. But the Koran tells you to discard the Christians.

Quote:
"O ye who believe! take not for friends and protectors those who take your religion for a mockery or sport,- whether among those who received the Scripture before you, or among those who reject Faith; but fear ye Allah, if ye have faith (indeed)."
Qur’an 5:57

Judging from your e-tone of mockery while dodging the discrepencies that were brough up I take it we won't become the best of friends LOL
I will be a friend to you any time you need me. But you are not allowed to be my friend. And that makes you my enemy in your mind. But I am told to love my enemies. :) I hate your doctrine and your teaching, but love you as a soul who needs God and the truth of Christ.

Quote:
"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."
Qur’an 9:29

"Those who reject (Truth), among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein (for aye). They are the worst of creatures."
Qur’an 98:6

Last but not least, to true Christians - the Quran teaches:


True Christians? The Koran flatly targeted all Christians and said all were unjust when it simply said: "take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust."

Quote:
Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve
We reject the belief of Allah. So true Christians are the ones who believe Jesus is Almighty!
Revelation 1:8 KJV I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Revelation 1:10-13 KJV I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, (11) Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea. (12) And I turned to see the voice that spake with me. And being turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; (13) And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
Do you really believe we should take the New testament for what it says? Think about it. It tel.ls us that Jesus is the Almighty. Do you believe that? You reject Jesus Christ as the Almighty. Christians believe He is the Almighty. So true Christians do not believe in your Allah. Jesus is Allah if you understand Allah to be God. And you reject the thought that Jesus is God. So true Christians reject Allah, and this makes the Koran to promote an oxymoron when it tells you to appreciate true Christians who worship Allah, for there is no such thing as a Christian who accepts Allah.

Quote:
Does not sound like hatred to me. Maybe you "interpret" hatred like you "interpret" that you are "intended to put different versions of stories from the bible together"
No, just use common sense. :)

We love you, but despise your doctrine. :D

mfblume 09-11-2009 10:14 AM
Re: 09-09-09
 
We believe many well-meaning people belong to the Islamic faith. However, we wish to note that the religion and way of life in Islam is violent and was foretold by God as so, and encourages their people to such a manner of thinking.
Genesis 16:11-12 And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Behold, thou art with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction. And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.
FROM THE QUR'AN
005.033
YUSUFALI: The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;

009.005
YUSUFALI: But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

009.029
YUSUFALI: Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
"Walks in Islam", your Koran teaches violence. Find that in the New Testament.

ISLAM means PEACE, and you call this walking in Peace?

mfblume 09-11-2009 10:36 AM
Re: 09-09-09
 
Walks in Islam,

Why is it that the word for BLACK, as in a Black person, in Arabic is “SLAVE”? This means that if you are a Black man, your Arab Moslem “friend” would describe you thus: “A man walked in to the store, and he was searching for you. He was a well-dressed slave, and wanted to buy some French fries.”

Sounds racist to me?

Walks_in_islam 09-11-2009 10:42 AM
Re: 09-09-09
 
What kind of answer is this? You do better at being critical of the Quran than explaining your own bible so I suggest you stick to that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume (Post 799536)
What kind of answer is that? It is common sense to put the accounts together. It's so simple, but if you look for errors you will contrive them. But it is all answered by common sense. It's like the sign over Jesus' head on the cross. Each account says something different. The truth is that we are to put all the accounts together to get the full quotation of the superscription.

Common sense says that there are multiple and different versions of the same story. They are written right there. If each version is completely different, then common sense says (3) of the (4) are incorrect. You say (I) contrived the error? I put the words as they are written directly onto the page. The error was contrived long before I picked it up. The truth is that YOU say you are to put all the accounts together, which I did, and they are different. Because of error.

THE GOOD NEWS? It is not even a translation. It is a paraphrasing. Come on, know your stuff a bit better.

Leaving it out or not, your "holy" book tells you to beat your wives. Why do you distract attention away from the beating of wives?


Leaving it out or not your "holy" book tells you to beat your children. With a rod. At least that's what it says. If it does not say that then you are free to call me a deceiver. As to the paraphrase that is word for word exactly what the verse says. Are you telling me now your "holy book" is merely a collection of paraphrases that can be interpreted based on today's wind direction?

She is not a rape victim. You miss the whole point of the law. A rape victim cries out. A woman who claims rape and yet did not cry out has lied. You are looking for faults in the bible. You are not honestly reading it to learn what it actually says.

I did not necessarily call this a fault in the bible. I only noted that the bible is no better and even stricter than the Quran regarding these activities which gives you little room to talk. You have added "a woman who claims rape and yet did not cry out has lied". If the law meant to say that I would suspect that it would have specified it. Instead, once again, you are here to add what you believe it to "imply" or "mean" (though your version is more palatable I guess)

It teaches you to beat your wives. And you cannot justify it.

I do not have to justify it. I did not write it. beat them (lightly) is a far, far cry from "beat your children with a rod and they shall not die"

Spanking children is a far cry from beating wives.

Beating children with a rod is certainly a far cry from the light punishment specified in the Quran. You, of course and naturally, added the term "spanking" to once again make the text more palatable

And under the New Covenant there is no slaying of anybody since Christ has come and His blood can solve such errors that were not solved under law. Christians do not keep Law of Moses, anyway. But Islamics beat their wives. Find something like that in the New Testament.

(laughing) only an idiot or coward beats up on his wife. Are you kidding me? Divorce is much easier in islam than it is in any other society and the Quran specifically states that mistreatment by a husband is grounds for immediate and uncontested divorce.

Right. Christians who choose not to believe the ways of Islam, you mean.

That's not what it says but again you appear to be choosing to "add" some commentary to make it "less" palatable. LOL

Re-interpreting the bible? lol. And you claimed the woman who cried not was a rape victim? You do not honestly read the Bible enough to even be able to learn its truth, and you tell me I am re-interpreting the Bible? The Koran CHANGES partway through its own text!

From:
And you will find that the closest people in friendship to the believers are those who say, "We are Christian."
To:
"O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust." Qur’an 5:51
[B]As stated, this appears to be a distinctly accurate statement and nailed christians cold. Christian loyalties appear to shift to the needs only of their pocketbooks and they would do business with Satan himself

Mohammed changed his mind after the book was not even finished!

The fact is that the New Testament does not tell us to hate anyone or treat anyone badly as your Koran teaches you, even if people do not accept the Gospel. It tells us to love our enemies. Your "holy" book tells you to dislike them. Can't wiggle out of this one. Your book teaches hatred.

I do not deny the words of my book nor do I as you say "wiggle out of them". After all I put the good and the bad, unchanged, in front of you.


continued...

Walks_in_islam 09-11-2009 10:44 AM
Re: 09-09-09
 
Your answer

Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume (Post 799539)
We believe many well-meaning people belong to the Islamic faith. However, we wish to note that the religion and way of life in Islam is violent and was foretold by God as so, and encourages their people to such a manner of thinking.
Genesis 16:11-12 And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Behold, thou art with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction. And he will be a wild man; his hand will be against every man, and every man's hand against him; and he shall dwell in the presence of all his brethren.
FROM THE QUR'AN
005.033
YUSUFALI: The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;

009.005
YUSUFALI: But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

009.029
YUSUFALI: Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
"Walks in Islam", your Koran teaches violence. Find that in the New Testament.

I find it all over the bible. If the bible is not, as you teach, an all-inclusive book of the word of god then take the bad parts out then come back with a nice clean version and pick fights about it.
ISLAM means PEACE, and you call this walking in Peace?

Walks_in_islam 09-11-2009 10:52 AM
Re: 09-09-09
 
(laughing) not to our millions of black Muslim brothers. Of course if you can make muslims out to be racist wife-beaters you can distract attention from the still-segregated christian churches (yes even the apostolic ones) scattered through the South. There are no segregated mosques Mike even in Houston where you live. But there are many, many black and white churches. Show deeds before you throw words my friend.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume (Post 799554)
Walks in Islam,

Why is it that the word for BLACK, as in a Black person, in Arabic is “SLAVE”? This means that if you are a Black man, your Arab Moslem “friend” would describe you thus: “A man walked in to the store, and he was searching for you. He was a well-dressed slave, and wanted to buy some French fries.”

Sounds racist to me?

mfblume 09-11-2009 10:53 AM
Re: 09-09-09
 
Quote:
Common sense says that there are multiple and different versions of the same story. They are written right there. If each version is completely different, then common sense says (3) of the (4) are incorrect. You say (I) contrived the error? I put the words as they are written directly onto the page. The error was contrived long before I picked it up. The truth is that YOU say you are to put all the accounts together, which I did, and they are different. Because of error.
There is no error. You are not even able to honestly read what I am writing, let alone honestly read what the bible is actually conveying. I said none of the the accounts were errors. It's like having three witnesses to one event. One witness saw some details, while the other saw other details. Put the two accounts together to get the full picture, but don't look at one witness and call him a liar when he honestly reported what he saw and missed the details the other witness saw.

Your dishonesty is showing.

Quote:
Quote:
THE GOOD NEWS? It is not even a translation. It is a paraphrasing. Come on, know your stuff a bit better.

Leaving it out or not, your "holy" book tells you to beat your wives. Why do you distract attention away from the beating of wives?
Leaving it out or not your "holy" book tells you to beat your children. With a rod. At least that's what it says. If it does not say that then you are free to call me a deceiver. As to the paraphrase that is word for word exactly what the verse says. Are you telling me now your "holy book" is merely a collection of paraphrases that can be interpreted based on today's wind direction?
More dishonest twisting of my words. I said the GOOD NEWS BIBLE is a paraphrase and and not a scholarly translation. So, my HOLY book is not a paraphrase, but people made a paraphrase out of it and called it the GOOD NEWS bible. The version even admits it is a paraphrase of the Bible.

Quote:
Quote:
She is not a rape victim. You miss the whole point of the law. A rape victim cries out. A woman who claims rape and yet did not cry out has lied. You are looking for faults in the bible. You are not honestly reading it to learn what it actually says.
I did not necessarily call this a fault in the bible. I only noted that the bible is no better and even stricter than the Quran regarding these activities which gives you little room to talk.
More distraction from the point. You claimed a rape victim was killed, implying the bible is cruel. Meanwhile a man's WIFE (!!!) is to be beaten, lightly or not?

Quote:
You have added "a woman who claims rape and yet did not cry out has lied". If the law meant to say that I would suspect that it would have specified it.
More dishonesty. Read the entire context. It is plain to anyone who honestly wants to understand the point. A woman who cried was genuinely raped. A woman who did not was accessory. A child could understand that.

Quote:
Instead, once again, you are here to add what you believe it to "imply" or "mean" (though your version is more palatable I guess)

Quote:
It teaches you to beat your wives. And you cannot justify it.
I do not have to justify it. I did not write it. beat them (lightly) is a far, far cry from "beat your children with a rod and they shall not die"
It certainly is a far cry. Spanking children is sensible, whereas beating an adult women whom you married is insane.

Quote:
Quote:
And under the New Covenant there is no slaying of anybody since Christ has come and His blood can solve such errors that were not solved under law. Christians do not keep Law of Moses, anyway. But Islamics beat their wives. Find something like that in the New Testament.
(laughing) only an idiot or coward beats up on his wife. Are you kidding me? Divorce is much easier in islam than it is in any other society and the Quran specifically states that mistreatment by a husband is grounds for immediate and uncontested divorce.
Yet Koran teaches men to beat their wives??? What a religion of contradiction. Mistreatment by a husband is beating his wife whether lightly or not. And then the Koran has the audacity to speak against mistreatment by husbands of their wives.

Quote:
Quote:
Right. Christians who choose not to believe the ways of Islam, you mean.
That's not what it says but again you appear to be choosing to "add" some commentary to make it "less" palatable. LOL
More twisting. You believe the Koran is truth. You believe truth set before Christians that is rejected makes them untrue Christians. Yes or no?

Quote:
Quote:
Re-interpreting the bible? lol. And you claimed the woman who cried not was a rape victim? You do not honestly read the Bible enough to even be able to learn its truth, and you tell me I am re-interpreting the Bible? The Koran CHANGES partway through its own text!

From:

And you will find that the closest people in friendship to the believers are those who say, "We are Christian."

To:

"O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust." Qur’an 5:51
[b]As stated, this appears to be a distinctly accurate statement and nailed christians cold. Christian loyalties appear to shift to the needs only of their pocketbooks and they would do business with Satan himself
All Christians? Muhammed made a blanket statement about all Christians. Is that what you believe? You believe true Christians confess that Jesus is God Almighty?

Quote:
Quote:
Mohammed changed his mind after the book was not even finished!

The fact is that the New Testament does not tell us to hate anyone or treat anyone badly as your Koran teaches you, even if people do not accept the Gospel. It tells us to love our enemies. Your "holy" book tells you to dislike them. Can't wiggle out of this one. Your book teaches hatred.
I do not deny the words of my book nor do I as you say "wiggle out of them". After all I put the good and the bad, unchanged, in front of you.
Could not answer my question, could you?

Love ya, though. Unlike the Koran teaches. :)

mfblume 09-11-2009 10:56 AM
Re: 09-09-09
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam (Post 799559)
(laughing) not to our millions of black Muslim brothers.
Your brothers who do not know what the Koran says about black people, you mean.

Quote:
Of course if you can make muslims out to be racist wife-beaters you can distract attention from the still-segregated christian churches (yes even the apostolic ones) scattered through the South.
Any church that is segregated and against all colors being in the congregation is not apostolic whether they call themselves that or not. Sort of like your good Islamic brothers such as Osama Bin Laden?

Quote:
There are no segregated mosques Mike even in Houston where you live.
What about this guy's mosque?

Quote:
Black Muslim lawyer Khalid Abdullah Tariq al-Mansour recently made news when it was revealed that he was a patron of Barack Obama and recommended him for admission to Harvard Law School in 1988. Back in the 1960s, al-Mansour, whose “slave name” was then Don Warden, was deeply involved in Bay Area racial politics as founder of a group called the African American Association. A close personal adviser to Huey Newton and Bobby Seale, al-Mansour helped the pair establish the Black Panther Party but later broke with them when they entered coalitions with white radical groups. After becoming a Muslim, al-Mansour found not only an ideological justification for his racism but also a political purpose. That was, in the words of a memorandum produced by the Muslim Brotherhood and seized by the FBI as part of its probe of the Holy Land Foundation, to “eliminate and destroy the Western civilization from within.” Many black racists like al-Mansour are key figures in this “stealth” jihad, whose prime recruiting grounds are the U.S. prisons and mosques where inmates and worshippers alike are taught to embrace a radical Islam engaged in an apocalyptic battle against America.
Any segregated church is not of God.

Quote:
But there are many, many black and white churches. Show deeds before you throw words my friend.
I have. :)

mfblume 09-11-2009 11:18 AM
Re: 09-09-09
 
Walks in Islam, is Jesus God Almighty or not? And if not, then is a Christian who believes Jesus is Almighty God to be considered someone who rejected the truth that moslems claim they show us regarding Jesus?

mfblume 09-11-2009 11:36 AM
Re: 09-09-09
 
Waloks in Islam,

What does this mean if not racism?
Ishaq:243
"I heard the Apostle say: 'Whoever wants to see Satan should look at Nabtal!' He was a black man with long flowing hair, inflamed eyes, and dark ruddy cheeks.... Allah sent down concerning him: 'To those who annoy the Prophet there is a painful doom." [9:61] "Gabriel came to Muhammad and said, 'If a black man comes to you his heart is more gross than a donkey's.'"

Tabari II:11 "Shem, the son of Noah was the father of the Arabs, the Persians, and the Greeks; Ham was the father of the Black Africans; and Japheth was the father of the Turks and of Gog and Magog who were cousins of the Turks. Noah prayed that the prophets and apostles would be descended from Shem and kings would be from Japheth. He prayed that the African's color would change so that their descendants would be slaves to the Arabs and Turks."

Tabari II:21 "Ham [Africans] begat all those who are black and curly-haired, while Japheth [Turks] begat all those who are full-faced with small eyes, and Shem [Arabs] begat everyone who is handsome of face with beautiful hair. Noah prayed that the hair of Ham's descendants would not grow beyond their ears, and that whenever his descendants met Shem's, the latter would enslave them."

Bukhari: V9B89N256 "Allah's Apostle said, 'You should listen to and obey your ruler even if he is a black African slave whose head looks like a raisin.'"

Bukhari:V4B52N137 "The Prophet said, 'Let the negro slave of Dinar perish. And if he is pierced with a thorn, let him not find anyone to take it out for him.... If he [the black slave] asks for anything it shall not be granted, and if he needs intercession [to get into paradise], his intercession will be denied.'"

mfblume 09-13-2009 08:37 PM
Re: 09-09-09
 
Where have all the moslems gone?

RandyWayne 09-14-2009 12:14 PM
Re: 09-09-09
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume (Post 800260)
Where have all the moslems gone?
Their all sitting on the front porch, dandelion and sun scorched.

Walks_in_islam 09-18-2009 10:11 AM
Re: 09-09-09
 
I have been busy.

Osama bin Ladin is not my "brother". Nor are any of his twisted followers. He and his followers have killed and tortured many thousands of Muslims and far more muslims have died by his hands than any other group. He is a creation of our own country, justified to spank the russians when we could not do it ourselves, that Muslims and non-Muslims alike now have to deal with.

You cannot tell me that (4) completely different version of the same story from so-called "witnesses" that directly contradict each other can all be correct. They cannot be blended, or explained, or justified. Better to just acknowledge that the general events happened but that the details are hidden than try to somehow explain that they are all correct. Because they contradict. The words are there and the factual details don't match. Nice of you to admit your bible is a paraphrase. None of the other "paraphrases" match either. I checked them all LOL.

As to God or not, I am not the one to ask. Use the words of Jesus himself who GOD spoke through quite often:

"I am; and you shall see THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and COMING WITH THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN."

Get it? Right hand? Whose right hand? Who is the Son of Man? Is it not Jesus himself?

Islam, like christianity, teaches that Jesus will return to and rule the earth. Not Mohammed, but Jesus. Islam also teaches that Jesus was a messenger from GOD who was taken up to heaven by GOD. Jesus taught to pray to GOD. From his cross (at least in one version) he committed his spirit to GOD and another version he prayed to GOD. Did Jesus never once, at any time, in any teaching, say "worship me"? No he did not, he deferred to GOD consistantly and throughout his ministry.

The Quran teaches that there is no difference between those who follow the law as stated in the Quran and those who follow the teachings of Jesus. They are the same. Jesus taught to and exampled praying to ELI the root word for Allah which goes back thousands of years.

You are free to claim racism in Islam all you want. I do see racism in the apostolic church and I do not see racism in Islam. The apostolic church has "ministry" and "black ministry" still on their website. The churches are split by color and it is still extremely common to have a "white" church and "black" church in the same city and the two congregations absolutely, not once, never mix.

Tabari is a Shi'a source and is the most-used by christians to degrade Islam. For good reason. Tabari directly contradicts the teachings of Islam and the writings represent a minority sect of the religion. It is equivalent of me posting nasty old documents from the Roman Catholic Church and applying it to the apostolic faith.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume (Post 799577)
Walks in Islam, is Jesus God Almighty or not? And if not, then is a Christian who believes Jesus is Almighty God to be considered someone who rejected the truth that moslems claim they show us regarding Jesus?

Walks_in_islam 09-18-2009 10:25 AM
Re: 09-09-09
 
Your answer, I have been distracted. It is Ramadan

Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume (Post 799561)
There is no error. You are not even able to honestly read what I am writing, let alone honestly read what the bible is actually conveying. I said none of the the accounts were errors. It's like having three witnesses to one event. One witness saw some details, while the other saw other details. Put the two accounts together to get the full picture, but don't look at one witness and call him a liar when he honestly reported what he saw and missed the details the other witness saw.

Your dishonesty is showing.

I cut and pasted direct quotes. It is the most honest thing to do when discussing discrepencies in a book anyway. Your lack of a single word from your bible above coupled with name calling tells me that YOU do not have an answer. The words as posted are self-explanatory anyway. Take the words and explain them another way. Line by line. If you can. I claim that you cannot. LOL


More dishonest twisting of my words. I said the GOOD NEWS BIBLE is a paraphrase and and not a scholarly translation. So, my HOLY book is not a paraphrase, but people made a paraphrase out of it and called it the GOOD NEWS bible. The version even admits it is a paraphrase of the Bible.

OH I see. Then find a version of the bible that is not a paraphrase where, as you claim, some details in the posted stories are left out and then included in another version as additional information. Make sure that your version of the bible does not directly describe events one way then completely different events another. That is, as you say, dishonest.

More distraction from the point. You claimed a rape victim was killed, implying the bible is cruel. Meanwhile a man's WIFE (!!!) is to be beaten, lightly or not?

I did not "claim" it I posted the verse, again, line by line. Either way, willing or not, the bible teaches that the penalty for adultery is death. Or so it says. Is this a paraphrase too?

More dishonesty. Read the entire context. It is plain to anyone who honestly wants to understand the point. A woman who cried was genuinely raped. A woman who did not was accessory. A child could understand that.

Really? Because that is not what it says. It does not specifically say what you say it means. If that is what it means then why does it not specifically say willingly or unwillingly? A woman who is forced but does not cry out because say a weapon is used and she is afraid of certain death is killed under the literal interpretation.

It certainly is a far cry. Spanking children is sensible, whereas beating an adult women whom you married is insane.

I happen to agree with this. LOL

Yet Koran teaches men to beat their wives??? What a religion of contradiction. Mistreatment by a husband is beating his wife whether lightly or not. And then the Koran has the audacity to speak against mistreatment by husbands of their wives.

The Quran does speak specifically against mistreatment by husbands of their wives. Thank you for saving me from making that point.

More twisting. You believe the Koran is truth. You believe truth set before Christians that is rejected makes them untrue Christians. Yes or no?

The truth set before christians rejected by christians is specifically defined in the Quran as their book. AKA the teachings of all the prophets including Jesus. The Quran teaches that most christians reject these teachings.


All Christians? Muhammed made a blanket statement about all Christians. Is that what you believe? You believe true Christians confess that Jesus is God Almighty?

I believe true christians will follow the example as lived and taught by Jesus. I have known few who do.

Could not answer my question, could you?

Which one? LOL

Love ya, though. Unlike the Koran teaches. :)
(laughing) I am certainly not your enemy!! LOL

mfblume 09-18-2009 04:17 PM
Re: 09-09-09
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam (Post 802277)
I have been busy.

Osama bin Ladin is not my "brother". Nor are any of his twisted followers. He and his followers have killed and tortured many thousands of Muslims and far more muslims have died by his hands than any other group. He is a creation of our own country, justified to spank the russians when we could not do it ourselves, that Muslims and non-Muslims alike now have to deal with.
That is the way we think of "Christians" who are racist and segregate.

Quote:
You cannot tell me that (4) completely different version of the same story from so-called "witnesses" that directly contradict each other can all be correct.
There is no contradiction. There is information that each supplies that each other does not, and added together we get the full picture. If two wtinesses see a car accident, and one of them says a red car hit another one, and the second witness says a blue car hit another one, then one car was blue and one was red, and there is no contradiction.

Quote:
They cannot be blended, or explained, or justified. Better to just acknowledge that the general events happened but that the details are hidden than try to somehow explain that they are all correct. Because they contradict. The words are there and the factual details don't match. Nice of you to admit your bible is a paraphrase. None of the other "paraphrases" match either. I checked them all LOL.
How can you sit there and distort what I said? I did not say all versions were paraphrases, I said the GOOD NEWS BIBLE is a paraphrase, whereas versions like the KJV are translations. Now at least be honest here.

Quote:
As to God or not, I am not the one to ask. Use the words of Jesus himself who GOD spoke through quite often:

"I am; and you shall see THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and COMING WITH THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN."

Get it? Right hand? Whose right hand? Who is the Son of Man? Is it not Jesus himself?
Jesus said He is the SON OF GOD and also said HE IS THE ALMIGHTY. It is God manifested in flesh, where there is 100% humanity in the flesh and 100% deitry as per His person.

Quote:
Islam, like christianity, teaches that Jesus will return to and rule the earth. Not Mohammed, but Jesus. Islam also teaches that Jesus was a messenger from GOD who was taken up to heaven by GOD. Jesus taught to pray to GOD. From his cross (at least in one version) he committed his spirit to GOD and another version he prayed to GOD. Did Jesus never once, at any time, in any teaching, say "worship me"? No he did not, he deferred to GOD consistantly and throughout his ministry.
An Angel told John to not worship him when John attempted to do so. Jesus saw Thomas fall down and worship Him as his Lord and God. Jesus accepted the worship.

Quote:
The Quran teaches that there is no difference between those who follow the law as stated in the Quran and those who follow the teachings of Jesus. They are the same. Jesus taught to and exampled praying to ELI the root word for Allah which goes back thousands of years.
You said that the Koran teaches that Christians who reject the truth are not the true Christians Mohammed told you to respect. So, are you saying that a Christian who claims Jesus is God Almighty, as Revelation 1 shows Him saying, Himself, is a true Christians?
Quote:
You are free to claim racism in Islam all you want. I do see racism in the apostolic church and I do not see racism in Islam.
The quotes I made from the Koran were racist. They degraded black people.

Quote:
The apostolic church has "ministry" and "black ministry" still on their website. The churches are split by color and it is still extremely common to have a "white" church and "black" church in the same city and the two congregations absolutely, not once, never mix.
If there is a problem with blacks and whites in a church together, then that situation relates to me as an apostolic as your relationship is with Osama Bib Ladin. Bin Ladin calls himself Islamic. So do not use distorted "apostolic" examples if you have your Bin Ladins.

Quote:
Tabari is a Shi'a source and is the most-used by christians to degrade Islam. For good reason. Tabari directly contradicts the teachings of Islam and the writings represent a minority sect of the religion. It is equivalent of me posting nasty old documents from the Roman Catholic Church and applying it to the apostolic faith.
And it is the same as you posting words about "apostolics" who segregate.

Walks_in_islam 09-18-2009 09:20 PM
Re: 09-09-09
 
Your answer

Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume (Post 802635)
That is the way we think of "Christians" who are racist and segregate.

There is no contradiction. There is information that each supplies that each other does not, and added together we get the full picture. If two wtinesses see a car accident, and one of them says a red car hit another one, and the second witness says a blue car hit another one, then one car was blue and one was red, and there is no contradiction.

Did you even read what was posted? When one witness says "I saw two cars hit each other after I arrived" then says "When I got there I saw 2 wrecked cars and the wreck happened before I arrived" those are directly contradictory. See the difference?

How can you sit there and distort what I said? I did not say all versions were paraphrases, I said the GOOD NEWS BIBLE is a paraphrase, whereas versions like the KJV are translations. Now at least be honest here.

I did not say that YOU said all versions are paraphrases. I implied or said the versions were paraphrases myself. See the difference? It is not all about you..

Jesus said He is the SON OF GOD and also said HE IS THE ALMIGHTY. It is God manifested in flesh, where there is 100% humanity in the flesh and 100% deitry as per His person.

An Angel told John to not worship him when John attempted to do so. Jesus saw Thomas fall down and worship Him as his Lord and God. Jesus accepted the worship.

Only in John's version when Mary (alone) came to the tomb while it was still dark. LOL Can't happen in the version where the women were afraid and left and did not tell anyone what they saw. At any rate the gospel of thomas was removed from the bible by the council of Nicea. Withdraw the comment. Rephrase to when the council decided what was and was not to be included in the bible they removed the writings of thomas that were used by some of the churches and ordered them destroyed.

You said that the Koran teaches that Christians who reject the truth are not the true Christians Mohammed told you to respect. So, are you saying that a Christian who claims Jesus is God Almighty, as Revelation 1 shows Him saying, Himself, is a true Christians?

True christians are known by their fruits not their beliefs. So Jesus himself taught.

The quotes I made from the Koran were racist. They degraded black people.

1. You did not post a quote from the Quran. It is deceptive to claim otherwise. But without being deceptive you cannot make this point.

2. Your source is from a non-Muslim translation of writings that represent a small sect (Shi'a) of Islam. Interesting that Shi'a do not exactly get along with other Muslims due to their brand of beliefs. It is by the way the most common source of material for christians to degrade Islam. Which does not make your comments new or special.


If there is a problem with blacks and whites in a church together, then that situation relates to me as an apostolic as your relationship is with Osama Bib Ladin. Bin Ladin calls himself Islamic. So do not use distorted "apostolic" examples if you have your Bin Ladins.

In apostolic churches sadly this has been the rule and not the exception. At least it has been in the South. This is personal observation. On the other hand, do not apply "Bin Ladin" examples to true Islam as long as you have child-molesting pastors and youth leaders or sunday school superintendents who get caught up in gay sex stings in parks. Bin Laden is stamped "made in USA" anyway thanks for nothing. Guess we showed those russians!

And it is the same as you posting words about "apostolics" who segregate.

I have seen the segregation myself. It is still common. It is not "written down" but it is, undeniably and for unknown reasons, practiced. Declaring it wrong is correct. I will leave your denial that it "does not happen" on this board for the judgement of your peers and will not comment any further. Playing the race card about Islam is funny to me however. Islam can be said to be a lot of things but certainly not a racist religion.

mfblume 09-19-2009 04:05 PM
Re: 09-09-09
 
Walks in Islam,

The contradiction example you give is not found in scripture. Speciifically list the biblical instances to show your idea of contradiction.

Also, you have repeated again and again that bin Ladin is not en example of Islam, and I have done the same thing with those whom you claim segregate. I am not saying there are not people who call themselves apostolic who segregate. I am saying they are not truly apostolic just as you are saying bin Ladin is not truly Islamic. So if you are going to make that argument against bin Ladin, then stop accusing my faith as one that allows segregation.

Also, do you claim a Christian is a true Christian while having fruit of the Spirit as well as faith that Jesus is Almighty God? (You are hedging that issue like a hot potato.)

mfblume 09-19-2009 04:19 PM
Re: 09-09-09
 
8:55 Muhsin Khan
: Verily, The worst of moving (living) creatures before Allah are those who disbelieve, - so they shall not believe.
What is it that these people do not believe, Walks in Islam?

Timmy 09-19-2009 04:29 PM
Re: 09-09-09
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume (Post 803001)
Walks in Islam,

The contradiction example you give is not found in scripture. Speciifically list the biblical instances to show your idea of contradiction.

Also, you have repeated again and again that bin Ladin is not en example of Islam, and I have done the same thing with those whom you claim segregate. I am not saying there are not people who call themselves apostolic who segregate. I am saying they are not truly apostolic just as you are saying bin Ladin is not truly Islamic. So if you are going to make that argument against bin Ladin, then stop accusing my faith as one that allows segregation.

Also, do you claim a Christian is a true Christian while having fruit of the Spirit as well as faith that Jesus is Almighty God? (You are hedging that issue like a hot potato.)
Mike, what incorrect beliefs or practices disqualify self-proclaimed Apostolics as true Apostolics, in your opinion?

mfblume 09-19-2009 04:39 PM
Re: 09-09-09
 
Quotes from Quran:
Qur'an 5:17 "Verily they are disbelievers and infidels who say, 'The Messiah, son of Mary, is God.'"

Qur'an 5:72 "They are surely infidels who blaspheme and say: 'God is Christ, the Messiah, the son of Mary.' But the Messiah only said: 'O Children of Israel! Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord.'"

Qur'an 9:30 "Muhsin Khan
: And the Jews say: 'Uzair (Ezra) is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: Messiah is the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouths. They imitate the saying of the disbelievers of old. Allah's Curse be on them, how they are deluded away from the truth!"

Qur'an 3:61 "If anyone disputes with you about Jesus being divine, flee them and pray that Allah will curse them." Qur'an 3:62 "This is the true account, the true explanation: There is no Ilah (God) except Allah; and Allah - He is the Mighty, the Wise. And if they turn away, then lo! Allah is aware of the corrupters, the mischief-makers. Say: 'O People of the Book, come to common terms as an agreement between us and you: That we all shall worship none but Allah; that we associate no partners with him; and that none of us shall take others for lords beside Allah.' If then they turn back, say you: 'Bear witness that we (at least) are Muslims surrendered."
Do you believe these words, Walks in Islam?

mfblume 09-19-2009 04:41 PM
Re: 09-09-09
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timmy (Post 803008)
Mike, what incorrect beliefs or practices disqualify self-proclaimed Apostolics as true Apostolics, in your opinion?
Racism, for one, as per the chat. Beyond that, everything the bible says is wrong is something that disqualifies one from being a true apostolic. The list would be too great to post here.

notofworks 09-19-2009 05:15 PM
Re: 09-09-09
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume (Post 803011)
Racism, for one, as per the chat. Beyond that, everything the bible says is wrong is something that disqualifies one from being a true apostolic. The list would be too great to post here.

Does not speaking in tongues disqualify me from being a true apostolic?

Timmy 09-19-2009 05:40 PM
Re: 09-09-09
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume (Post 803011)
Racism, for one, as per the chat. Beyond that, everything the bible says is wrong is something that disqualifies one from being a true apostolic. The list would be too great to post here.
So, sin, in other words? Any time someone slips up, do they stop being Apostolic until they repent (or do whatever it takes to erase the sin from their record)?

mfblume 09-19-2009 07:05 PM
Re: 09-09-09
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by notofworks (Post 803013)
Does not speaking in tongues disqualify me from being a true apostolic?
Definitely. Did the apostles teach that saints should speak in tongues?

1 Cor 14 has Paul teaching that tongues are for prayer to God, and our understanding is unfruitful. In other words, tongues are generally understood to be for all saints in the apostle's mind. Prayer in the Spirit is not just for part of the church. Even Jesus said that tongues were a sign that followed believers. So, without tongues, one is certainly not apostolic, unless one knows one should experience this and is seeking it.

But this is another departure from the issues at hand.

My thoughts on the issue, anyway.

mfblume 09-19-2009 07:07 PM
Re: 09-09-09
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timmy (Post 803017)
So, sin, in other words? Any time someone slips up, do they stop being Apostolic until they repent (or do whatever it takes to erase the sin from their record)?
We ca go the circles of what you think is of God, but you noted you do not believe the bible in totality, so what would be the use? Apostolics believe in the bible and not that it is merely man's thoughts. Would you agree, and would you also consider yourself apostolic?

The point I originally made, to which you are responding, was that true apostolics are not racist in any sense. You are turning this into a completely different issue.

Walks_in_islam 09-19-2009 10:42 PM
Re: 09-09-09
 
Your answer

Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume (Post 803001)
Walks in Islam,

The contradiction example you give is not found in scripture. Speciifically list the biblical instances to show your idea of contradiction.

OH but I did. But I must have confused you with (4) versions of (1) story instead of just using (2) at a time. This happens EVERY TIME one of you guys see a contradiction. You act confused then claim you never saw it. After it is already posted. LOL Pretending to be confused with the black and white words in front of you certainly does not make me look silly. So, lets do contradictions in pairs:

And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him. And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun. And they said among themselves, Who shall roll us away the stone from the door of the sepulchre?And when they looked, they saw that the stone was rolled away

My analogy: "when I arrived the car was already wrecked"

After the Sabbath, at dawn on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to look at the tomb. There was a violent earthquake, for an angel of the Lord came down from heaven and, going to the tomb, rolled back the stone and sat on it. His appearance was like lightning, and his clothes were white as snow. The guards were so afraid of him that they shook and became like dead men. The angel said to the women, "Do not be afraid"

My analogy: "I witnessed the car wreck"

Hopefully that simplifies it for you. Do you get it yet? (2) completely different, contradictory stories. Again. Please do not imply that I did not specifically post examples again. If you need them I will post the other two. Again. Bleh

Also, you have repeated again and again that bin Ladin is not en example of Islam, and I have done the same thing with those whom you claim segregate. I am not saying there are not people who call themselves apostolic who segregate. I am saying they are not truly apostolic just as you are saying bin Ladin is not truly Islamic. So if you are going to make that argument against bin Ladin, then stop accusing my faith as one that allows segregation.

That is not an accusation. When there are no longer all-white apostolic churches within a few miles of all-black apostolic churches within a few miles of all-hispanic apostolic churches and they never fellowship among themselves then this is effectively segregation. It happens. At least that is what I observed over the years. Perhaps a better approach, rather than act defensive to me or pretend it is not there is to say "why" and address it among yourselves. After all, you and not I played the race card I merely shared my observations per personal experience (personal experience that on the flip side is sadly lacking on your side as internet slurs on right-wing bigoted websites are not quite the same as checking things out for yourself).

Also, do you claim a Christian is a true Christian while having fruit of the Spirit as well as faith that Jesus is Almighty God? (You are hedging that issue like a hot potato.)

Hedging what? I do not decide who true christians are. It is not my place to pretend I have the right to decide who is a true or not a true christian. Apply that rule to yourselves and your assemblies will be a lot more peaceful LOL

Walks_in_islam 09-19-2009 11:00 PM
Re: 09-09-09
 
Are you saying this is not true Blume? Are you claiming that Jesus did not teach this during his entire ministry on earth?

But the Messiah only said: 'O Children of Israel! Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord.

Walks_in_islam 09-19-2009 11:06 PM
Re: 09-09-09
 
The contradictions are there and there are many more. Review this list then tell me "these are not found in scripture" either. Old testament, new testament, the entire book is rife with discrepency. I added the chapters for the lazy and note they are even linked. The verses are too much work. LOL YOU cannot even say what happened at the conversion of Paul! (2) completely contradictory accounts. Does that make his teachings at least a bit questionable?

David was incited to count the fighting men of Isreal. In 2nd Samuel, God incited him. In I Chronicles, Satan incited him. When they were counted, 2nd Samual says 800,000 and I Chronicles says 1.1 MM. 2 Samuel 24/I Chronicles 21

God threatens David with 7 years of famine in 2nd Samuel, 3 years of famine in I Chronicles. Same chapters

Ahaziah was 22 when he began his rule in 2nd Kings 8. He was 42 in 2nd Chronicles 22.

Jehoiachin was 18 when he began his rule in 2nd Kings 24, 8 when he began his rule in 2nd Chronicles 36

David's "chief of mighty men" killed 800 men at one time in 2nd Samuel 23 and 300 men at one time in I Chronicles 11

David carried the Ark into Jerusalem AFTER defeating the Philistines in 2nd Samuel 5/6. Before defeating them in Chronicles 13/14

David captured 1700 horsemen after defeating the King of Zobah in 2nd Samuel 8, 7000 in I Chronicles 18.

Solomon had 40,000 stalls for horses in I Kings 4. 4000 stalls in 2nd Chronicles 9.
During King Asa's reign Baasha King of Isreal died in the 26th year in I Kings 15/16. He was still alive in the 36th year in I chronicles 16.

Solomon appointed 3600 overseers to build the temple in 2nd chronicles 2. 3300 in I Kings 5.

Solomon built a facility containing 2000 baths in I kings 7. It had 3000 in 2nd chronicles 4.

Isrealites freed from Babylonian captivity (Ezra 2, Nehemiah 7):
Children of Pahrath-Moab:
2812 Ezra. 2818 Nehemiah
Children of Azgad:
1222 Ezra. 2333 Nehemiah
And so on. The total numbers agree in each book as 42,360, but if you add each individual column from each book Ezra adds to 29,818 and Nehemiah adds to 31,089

There were 200 singers in the assembly in Ezra and 245 in the assembly in Nehemiah.

King Abijah's mother's name was Michaiah, daughter of Uriel in 13th chapter of 2nd chronicles and Maachah daughter of Absalom in 11th chapter.
Absalom however had only one daughter mentioned whose name was Tamar in 2nd Samuel 14

Joshua and the Isrealites captured Jerusalem in Joshua 10 and did not capture it in Joshua 15.

Father of Joseph, husband of Mary was Jacob in Matthew 1 and Heli in Luke 3

Jesus descended from Solomon in Matthew 1 and from Nathan in Luke 3

The father of Shealtiel was Jechoniah in Matthew 1 and Neri in Luke 3

Abiud son of Zerubbabel was the ancestor of Jesus in Matthew 1 and Rhesa son of Zerubbabel in Luke 3. 7 sons are mentioned as sons of Zerubbabel. Neither son mentioned in Matthew/Luke are mentioned as sons of Zerubbabel in the list in I Chronicles 3.

Father of Uzziah was Joram in Matthew 1 and Amaziah in 2nd Chronicles 26

Father of Jechoniah was Josiah in Matthew 1 and Jeholakim in I Chronicles 3

The angel stated that Jesus would inherit the throne of David in Luke 1. But Matthew 1 says he is a descendent of Jehoiakim and I Chronicles 3 says "and Jehoiaikim was cursed by god so that none of his descendents can sit upon David's throne" Oops.

Jesus rode into Jerusalem on a colt in Mark 11 and Luke 19 and a colt/donkey in Matthew 21

Simon Peter found out that Jesus was Christ from a heavenly revelation in Matthew 16, but his brother Andrew told him in John 1

Jesus met Simon and Andrew by the Sea of Galilee in Matthew 4 and on the banks of the river Jordan in John 1. John says Jesus went to the sea of Galilee AFTER meeting Simon and Andrew.

Jairus' daughter was dead when he met Jesus in Matthew 9 but not dead / at the point of death in Mark 5

The disciples were allowed to keep a staff on their journeys in Mark 6. They were not allowed in Matthew 10 and Luke 9

Herod thought that Jesus was John the Baptist in Matthew 14 and Mark 6. He did not in Luke 9.

John the Baptist recognized Jesus in Matthew 3. He did not recognize him in John 1.

Jesus cleansed the temple the day he entered Jerusalem in Matthew 21. He spent the night in Bethany and cleansed it the next day in Mark 11.

Same chapters - Fig tree withers immediately Matthew 21, but overnight in Mark 11.

Judas kissed Jesus in Matthew 26. He did not in John 18 because he could not get close enough.

The curtain in the temple was rent after Jesus died in Matthew 27 and Mark 15. Before Jesus died in Luke 23 because he spoke after the curtain was torn.

Both thieves mocked Jesus in Mark 15. One mocked, one defended Jesus in Luke 23

Jesus ascended to paradise on the day of crucifixion in Luke 23 (or so he told the thief). He said to Mary he has not yet ascended (two get it, not 3 days later) in John 20

The apostle Paul and companions on the road to Damascus:
All heard the voice in Acts 9. Not all heard the voice in Acts 22
The companions fell to the ground in Acts 26. They did not in Acts 9
The voice spelled out Paul's duties in Acts 26. The voice told him to go to Damascus in Acts 9.

How many more? After Jesus' baptism Mark says he was driven into the wilderness, John says he selected disciples then went to a wedding feast. Two different versions of the traitor Judas' death. The time of the crucifixion has multiple versions. The story of the slave at Capernaum has (2) versions. The resurrection has (4) distinctly separate versions. Each gospel has a different set of people visiting, in some versions the stone is already rolled back, in one an angel descended and rolled it back, some versions have heavenly messengers, but the book of John has none. OH, the best one - in Exodus 7 Moses and Aaron converted all of the water into blood. Then the magicians did the same. Which is puzzling, because there was no water left?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume (Post 803001)
Walks in Islam,

The contradiction example you give is not found in scripture. Speciifically list the biblical instances to show your idea of contradiction.

Also, you have repeated again and again that bin Ladin is not en example of Islam, and I have done the same thing with those whom you claim segregate. I am not saying there are not people who call themselves apostolic who segregate. I am saying they are not truly apostolic just as you are saying bin Ladin is not truly Islamic. So if you are going to make that argument against bin Ladin, then stop accusing my faith as one that allows segregation.

Also, do you claim a Christian is a true Christian while having fruit of the Spirit as well as faith that Jesus is Almighty God? (You are hedging that issue like a hot potato.)

Walks_in_islam 09-19-2009 11:15 PM
Re: 09-09-09
 
And they come to Jerusalem: and Jesus went into the temple, and began to cast out them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves

And he taught, saying unto them Is it not written, My house shall be called of all nations the house of prayer? but ye have made it a den of thieves.



Blume you personally don't....um......profit from your christian ministry do you? Profiting from something like that would definitely trigger that "true christian" question when held up to the litmus test of EITHER the bible or the Quran and certainly the Quran which holds the teachings (and example) of Jesus in high regard (note an entire chapter (Surah) was written about Jesus' mother)
[/B]

Timmy 09-20-2009 10:03 AM
Re: 09-09-09
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume (Post 803033)
We ca go the circles of what you think is of God, but you noted you do not believe the bible in totality, so what would be the use? Apostolics believe in the bible and not that it is merely man's thoughts. Would you agree, and would you also consider yourself apostolic?

The point I originally made, to which you are responding, was that true apostolics are not racist in any sense. You are turning this into a completely different issue.
Just askin'. ;)

Timmy 09-20-2009 11:01 AM
Re: 09-09-09
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume (Post 803011)
Racism, for one, as per the chat. Beyond that, everything the bible says is wrong is something that disqualifies one from being a true apostolic. The list would be too great to post here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timmy (Post 803017)
So, sin, in other words? Any time someone slips up, do they stop being Apostolic until they repent (or do whatever it takes to erase the sin from their record)?
Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume (Post 803033)
We ca go the circles of what you think is of God, but you noted you do not believe the bible in totality, so what would be the use?
Actually, I'm not sure what you're trying to say, here. I didn't ask what the list of sins is (if that's what you thought I was asking). Didn't agree or disagree with anything you said. Just asked if self-proclaimed Apostolics stop being Apostolics whenever they commit a sin. The example you gave was racism. That is sin, yes? You said someone who is racist is not Apostolic. Just trying to understand your position better.

Quote:
Apostolics believe in the bible and not that it is merely man's thoughts. Would you agree, and would you also consider yourself apostolic?
I agree that's what Apostolics believe, and no, I don't consider myself Apostolic. (Not sure why you asked! ;))

Quote:
The point I originally made, to which you are responding, was that true apostolics are not racist in any sense. You are turning this into a completely different issue.
Completely different from the date 09/09/09, yep, that's for sure! :lol

Walks_in_islam 09-20-2009 11:13 AM
Re: 09-09-09
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume (Post 803011)
Racism, for one, as per the chat. Beyond that, everything the bible says is wrong is something that disqualifies one from being a true apostolic. The list would be too great to post here.
Does that include eating pork Blume? The bible says that is wrong. (bringing down the wrath of every cajun family member on my head with that one but hey paul had a dream about it so maybe that one is OK) Also women who speak in or pray in church with their head uncovered. wrong. Also profiting from ministry. wrong. re-interpreting or adding to the written words of scripture. wrong. So the bible says.

Do you or your family do any of these things that the bible says is wrong Blume? You played that race card by the way.

mfblume 09-20-2009 10:40 PM
Re: 09-09-09
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam (Post 803179)
Does that include eating pork Blume? The bible says that is wrong. (bringing down the wrath of every cajun family member on my head with that one but hey paul had a dream about it so maybe that one is OK) Also women who speak in or pray in church with their head uncovered. wrong. Also profiting from ministry. wrong. re-interpreting or adding to the written words of scripture. wrong. So the bible says.

Do you or your family do any of these things that the bible says is wrong Blume? You played that race card by the way.
The Koran played the race car.

WII, the BIBLE shows Israel not eating pork, and then progressing from shadow to reality in the New Testament where eating pork is not wrong. The New Testament teaches that the detailed legalities of the Old Covenant were symbolic of truths regarding Christ. Once the days of shadow are gone, and the Body is here that cast those shadows, the shadows are of no consequence now. We hold the reality of what the shadows spiritually foretold. So, yes I obey the Bible. The BIBLE is the Old covenant progressing into the New covenant, with explanations of the need for that change.

mfblume 09-20-2009 10:43 PM
Re: 09-09-09
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timmy (Post 803176)
Completely different from the date 09/09/09, yep, that's for sure! :lol
Nothing wrong with a different issue, but I was trying to say I am not interested in this departure. :) Just the one I engaged in with WII.


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