Re: Earrings? Why not? God piereces ears!
 

I understand that the early church did not believe in self glory via appearance.

The question here is whether tattoo's are self glorification. The answer is no more than fixing your hair nice for Sunday night service is. Actually, it is probably less being that everyone can't see your tattoo, whereas your hair is fixed for everyone to see.

I guess technically the question was about earrings, lol. This is kind of a branch off of that question, I reckon. lol.

Re: Earrings? Why not? God piereces ears!
 

The early church wanted God to have the glory in ALL things...I am afraid we lag behind them in many ways...

Re: Earrings? Why not? God piereces ears!
 

Have you seen tattoos lately? hidden? Also since when does something hidden from others limit how a person can feel pride and everything else in life about such?

Re: Earrings? Why not? God piereces ears!
 

sex with an animal would be wrong (unless you were married to the animal), wouldn't it?

Re: Earrings? Why not? God piereces ears!
 

Why add the qualifier "unless you were married..."???? Isn't it wrong no matter what? :blink

Re: Earrings? Why not? God piereces ears!
 

Let's hope so! LOL And why did you add that qualifier (unless you were married to the animal)?

My point was that bestiality is only specifically mentioned in the OT, not the NT. That doesn't mean we can go sleep with animals now since we're under grace.

Re: Earrings? Why not? God piereces ears!
 

I believe he is equating his marriage and others too... HAHAHAHA

Re: Earrings? Why not? God piereces ears!
 

Yes BUT Paul says we are NOT under the law. The Law is a schoolmaster to bring us TO Christ and once we come to Christ we are no longer under the law.

So that is why, if it is not repeated in the NT it is not a part of the new covenant.

It's not idiotic at all. Do you really keep the entire law of Moses because Paul said all scripture is given?

Re: Earrings? Why not? God piereces ears!
 

Bestiality is not mentioned in the NT however we do have many scriptures that teach on God's order of creation that man is made for woman and vice versa, not for animals

Rom 1:21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.
Rom 1:22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools,
Rom 1:23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
Rom 1:24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves,
Rom 1:25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.
Rom 1:26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature;
Rom 1:27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.
Rom 1:28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done.
Rom 1:29 They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips,
Rom 1:30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents,
Rom 1:31 foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless.
Rom 1:32 Though they know God's decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.

Rom 13:13 Let us live decently as in the daytime, not in carousing and drunkenness, not in sexual immorality and sensuality, not in discord and jealousy.

The ONLY sanctified relation is marriage. If a woman is unfaithful to her husband he can divorce her. The NT teaches explicitly that all other relations outside the marriage is wrong.

Consider also

1Co 6:13 "Food is for the stomach and the stomach is for food, but God will do away with both."11 The body is not for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body.
1Co 6:14 Now God indeed raised the Lord and he will raise us by his power.
1Co 6:15 Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Should I take the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? Never!
1Co 6:16 Or do you not know that anyone who is united with12 a prostitute is one body with her?13 For it is said, "The two will become one flesh."14
1Co 6:17 But the one united with15 the Lord is one spirit with him.16
1Co 6:18 Flee sexual immorality! "Every sin a person commits is outside of the body"17 — but the immoral person sins against his own body.

You have sex with an animal you are joined to that animal just as you would be with a prostitute.

One definition of this word from the greek is lewd
Preoccupied with sex and sexual desire; lustful.

The word is said to cover all sexual sins
Porneía may also refer to marriages within the degrees prohibited by the Law of Moses and generally to all such intercourse as prohibited in that Law

Paul clearly identifies the only sexual relationship acceptable is that between a man and a woman in marraige

Re: Earrings? Why not? God piereces ears!
 

Being under the administration of the covenant and knowing and doing what is righteous are two different things. There was no NT to the early church. They had the sciptures of the Jews to look at. God's righteousness is all throughout scripture and the same line of reasoning is consistent.

Re: Earrings? Why not? God piereces ears!
 

Also you will NEVER find me saying we are under the "old covenant" "the law"! Also schoomaster is clearly principle foundation of which would be continued.

Re: Earrings? Why not? God piereces ears!
 

I think he was pointing out that you're only supposed to have sex with your spouse..... and we can't marry animals. So that in and of itself would rule out bestiality. ;) (if nothing else did)

Re: Earrings? Why not? God piereces ears!
 

There was indeed a NT in the early church. They are under the New Covenant just as we are. They were taught orally by the Apostles.

This is evidenced as well by the first church council where they determined the Gentiles did not have to keep the laws of Moses. It was a Jewish thing. Paul emphatically tells us we are NOT under the Law of Moses

We are not under the law of Moses. Is the NT and Paul wrong?

Re: Earrings? Why not? God piereces ears!
 

We are no longer obligated to keep the OT ceremonial laws, but what about the OT moral laws? Aren't we still obligated to keep those?

Theologians have generally recognized three types of OT laws: (1) moral, (2) ceremonial, and (3) civil.

Re: Earrings? Why not? God piereces ears!
 

Some divide the Law into three categories: the civil, the moral, and the ceremonial and say we no longer have to keep the civil and ceremonial but have to keep the moral. Others just teach that the Law was God's covenant with Israel and has been replaced (in total) by a New Covenant with a new people (the Church or the Israel of God). Others who go along with the whole New Covenant thing believe the only part of the law we are required to keep under the New Covenant is what the Apostles and Elders decided in Jerusalem and is recorded in their letter to the churches in Acts 15. There is one version of the Bible which includes the whole Limuda or Didache in the letter from the Apostles and Elders in Acts 15.

Re: Earrings? Why not? God piereces ears!
 

I HAVE NEVER SAID WE ARE UNDER THE MOSAIC COVENANT! We are under LAW which is the LAW of Christ which has the same BASE tenants!

You missed my point... I am talking about books written. Most are written YEARS later after of christ's life and only partials here and there. They referenced the OT scriptures. Which Paul said ALL SCRIPTURE was for instruction in righteousness which was a reference to the writings of Law and Prophets etc...

AGAIN READ WHAT I SAID! Being under covenant and knowing righteousness are TWO DIFFERENT THINGS! The basis of all law is upon the SAME REASONING! MArk 12:29-31 We are under the administration of Christ which is the SAME PRINCIPLES TAUGHT BEFOREHAND of which CHrist said and confirmed in John 15. Just as he, we do also the commandments of the Father. Which is a reference to that which ALL LAW HANGS of which HE DID and was found innocent!

If he could be charged with SIN and DEFILEMENT then we would no do it either. Ceremonial law in itself is not sin. That which defiles is of the heart. To not perform in heart would be sin but the failed action of the ceremony is not what defiles.

Re: Earrings? Why not? God piereces ears!
 

Sorry about short burst. Not much time. But yes, it has been a greater witness. I work a lot with at risk young people. I have been able to make considerable inroads in their lives.

Re: Earrings? Why not? God piereces ears!
 

The Bible says sin gets stronger with legalism/law. Makes me want to run far away from it.

Re: Earrings? Why not? God piereces ears!
 

When they were pierced did they also stick ear rings in them? Simply being pierced does not mean they wore ear rings.

David said this because under the law if a man had fulfilled his 7 years servitude and wanted to stay with his master forever, they would punch his ear through with an awl but i don't know anything about slipping a ring in it

Re: Earrings? Why not? God piereces ears!
 

I think they would have to, or the hole would close.

Re: Earrings? Why not? God piereces ears!
 

I don't know...if you read the scriptures and the commentary the point wasn't an ear ring or a hole in the ear lobe, but the joining of the ear with the door to the house of the master

Exo 21:6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an awl; and he shall serve him forever.

Re: Earrings? Why not? God piereces ears!
 

Scripture doesn't condemn earrings, so it's not illogical to assume they wore one in the hole to keep it open.

Also, the fact that they braced the ear against the door to make the hole doesn't mean that the point of the act was to "join...the ear with the door...." The point was creating a symbol of the fact that the servant would voluntarily serve the master forever. Whether that was just a hole or a hole with an earring in it seems marginal to me.

Re: Earrings? Why not? God piereces ears!
 

I didn't say scriptures condemn ear rings. I didn't say it was illogical to assume anything.

Im simply pointing out that there is no mention of a ring. It has to be assume they stuck a ring in the hole, which also assumes the intent was to keep the hole open, which is not supported by the text

Keil and Delitsch
In this case the master was to take his servant הָאֱלֹהִים אֶל, lit., to God, i.e., according to the correct rendering of the lxx, πρὸς τὸ κριτήριον, to the place where judgment was given in the name of God (Deu_1:17; cf. Exo_22:7-8, and Deu_19:17), in order that he might make a declaration there that he gave up his liberty. His ear was then to be bored with an awl against the door or lintel of the house, and by this sign, which was customary in many of the nations of antiquity, to be fastened as it were to the house for ever.

That this was the meaning of the piercing of the ear against the door of the house, is evident from the unusual expression in Deu_15:17, “and put (the awl) into his ear and into the door, that he may be thy servant for ever,” where the ear and the door are co-ordinates. “For ever,” i.e., as long as he lives. Josephus and the Rabbins would restrict the service to the time ending with the year of jubilee, but without sufficient reason, and contrary to the usage of the language, as לְעֹלָם is used in Lev_25:46 to denote service which did not terminate with the year of jubilee. (See the remarks on Lev_25:10; also my Archäologie.)

Re: Earrings? Why not? God piereces ears!
 

I always find it amusing to hear old time Pentecostal preachers preach about the Prodigal son coming home and the father giving him his ring when in the preachers own church any man wearing a ring would probably be condemmed. (and yes I know the significance of why the father gave the son the ring but it does not do away with the fact there was a ring to begin with and God had no problem with it despite the former RR's wild assertions that jewelry was cast down from heaven with the fallen angels).

Re: Earrings? Why not? God piereces ears!
 

I didn't say you did. I'm just pointing out that outside of our Pentecostal paradigm, it wouldn't occur to us to say they didn't wear an earring, because that would be the practical way of keeping the hole open. IMO, it's pointed out because, as usual, we have to find a way to sanitize the story. Not deliberately, mind you--it's just a habit.

It's just a possibility--that's all--and not an illogical one. As I pointed out. :D

I'm intimately familiar with this particular text, due to a sermon I heard preached many times called "I love my Master." :) I agree with the interpretation that "forever" meant voluntary service "as long as he lives", because otherwise the ceremony would have been fairly insignificant.

Re: Earrings? Why not? God piereces ears!
 

?????? I've never heard that one!

Re: Earrings? Why not? God piereces ears!
 

God thinks it is beautiful.

Ezekiel 16:12-13 KJV And I put a jewel on thy forehead, and earrings in thine ears, and a beautiful crown upon thine head. (13) Thus wast thou decked with gold and silver; and thy raiment was of fine linen, and silk, and broidered work; thou didst eat fine flour, and honey, and oil: and thou wast exceeding beautiful, and thou didst prosper into a kingdom.

Re: Earrings? Why not? God piereces ears!
 

I only know that second hand from what someone posted on AFF a year or two ago. Perhaps someone who has been to a woman's conference the former RR has spoke at and covered this subject can weigh in.

Re: Earrings? Why not? God piereces ears!
 

Im posting from the perspective that doesn't believe ear rings are wrong though :-)

Sure, but we can't do any thing more than speculate. I agree. For all we know they stuck bamboo shoots through them ;)


Me too. It was one of the first messages that ever really stuck in my mind that my first Pastor taught.

Re: Earrings? Why not? God piereces ears!
 

The size of the hole in the ear would determine if an earring was needed to keep the hole from closing. :)

Re: Earrings? Why not? God piereces ears!
 

I was going to gage my ears once...