Well, I can't speak for anyone else, but I just know that for our church, it just has no relevance. It has nothing to do with secrets. The organization is something that the pastors deal with, it has no real connection with the saints. The pastors don't get up and teach what the organization teaches, they teach from the Bible. The politics of the UPC would be completely confusing to most of the saints. They would be appalled at the political side. The only time the organization comes into relevance is when it comes to conventions, retreats and sectional meetings. Granted, our church is not affiliated, just the pastors, but I have been to several other churches in my life, and I don't think in any of them, the political stuff would be something that would have much relevance. The only time it would seem to me like it would come into play, is if the pastor made some major decision based off of an organization action. (Which is what seems to be happening in some churches right now) Then it would seem to me that the pastor would have to explain what he was doing, and why, and then the saint would have to decide if they felt like it was a Biblical move that they were willing to follow. IMO. Also, what might make a difference is that in my town, there are a lot of choices that aren't only UPC that adhere to our basic beliefs.

Well... if the pastor is expected to "preach, teach and uphold" the AoF isn't it only fair that he tell the saints what's in the AoF and alert them to changes? And to help them to be wise about the whole thing, it would be helpful to understand the history of the org and the various debates and controversies that the org struggles with.

To just pretend that there is no context for the preacher's message is just plain disingenuous. Of course, if you're simply trying to raise a herd that doesn't ask questions then there will be a lot that you must keep from them.

For example: "I only preach the Bible..." Then it would be best not to bring up the history of the biblical text. Many Apostolic people already scribble out 1 John 5:7 from their King James Bibles but they really have no idea about the issues around that. You mention the phrase "Comma Johanneum" and you are met with blank stares.

There are many other examples as well, though Apostolic pastors rarely have to deal with this. Because of the entrenched culture of secrecy that exists, when a saint stumbles upon some atheistic or (worse!) Baptist literature and finds that the one-liners that they learned all of their lives don't always cut the mustard, that saint will usually slip away quietly and not ask any troubling questions.

But I feel that it's still always better to educate people than to leave them in the dark.

I find it very interesting how that many have characterized what comes out of the General Conference as being junk, warts, dirty politics, yada yada yada?

Is this really the perception of what GC is all about, airing dirty laundry and such?

Coonskinner, what if none of your church members knew who George Bush, Hilary Clinton, Fred Thompson, the pledge of allegience, and who the first president was?

Ask any of your congregation if they are UPC and I bet to a person they will say "yes"!

It is a shame garden variety saints don't know or are made not to care what goes on in the organization they have assumed an identity in order to represent!!!!!

Don't know about other UPC's but agreeing with and abiding by the AOF is the basis of membership at ours.

I had a friend raised in the AOG and he said every member of their local churches were not only made aware of org issues but got to vote on them locally so the pastor went as representative

That's why I'm not UPC...I attend a UPC. I have no real say in Org matters though I may know about a lot of them

I get my info here, than talk to my pastor privately. He spoke to the congregation about our district (WD) being split, which he was against, but not the TV thing, which he is also against. But he did state that whatever happens in the UPC will not affect the way we do church locally.


ARPH :doggyrun

That's not a bad idea actually - :scoregood

You mean pasted here? I agree why should they care what gets cut and pasted here....... :pirate

But imagine the shock of a person who believes they are UPC and believes certain things about the UPC only to find out several years later the UPC changed and your Pastor kept the news from you

I guess the difference of approach is I don't think very many of the saints at our church would identify themselves as UPC, they would say they are Apostolic or Pentecostal.

Most that I meant would say "I'm UPC"

I've been in the UPC for over 30 yrs. The first 15 years, our pastor taught and even read the AoF to us over the pulpit. He taught heavy against TV and backed the normal holiness standards. Then, he and others began to get TV's and suddenly, holiness and TV isn't mentioned any more. The congregation is split about 50/50 on TV. Now that resolutions #3 and #4 have been passed, how could he not mention them? Some in the church are upset about certain topics not being mentioned anymore. Can you just stop talking about something and hope it will cease to exist?

As a added thought; many in our church don't have internet. Most are too poor to be able to afford it. But several of us mentioned the upcoming vote to the pastor prior to GC so he knows there is some knowledge out there. This seems to be another reason to address the topic. Just to explain where we go from here and what effects it will have on the local congregation.

This is exactly the case I was speaking of earlier.

It's not a very wise scenario.

Never expect too much information from a pastor, he is limited to a daily quota.

Huh?
 

With all due respect sir, but if you are a member of the UPC, wouldn't it make sense that your congregation are members too? For a pastor to simply ignore an issue that they may or may not agree with simply because you're not interested in the politics is cheating your people. Maybe some of your people want to know what's going on, that's why you go to the GC! So, pastors that ignore the results of resolution 4 simply because they disagree with it does a disservice to their congregation.

Amen
 

I agree with The Mrs and Praxeas on this and I disagree with Coonskinner. It's like going to church and always believing you believe one way only to have yourself rattled 20 years later that the pastor went in another direction. Good points Praxeas and The Mrs!! If I belong to a church and pay tithes and other support, I deserve to know what is going on in my church!

I agree with Coonskinner. I don't talk of UPC political junk either. I don't burden them with that mess. I carry a card but the church isn't affilated. The church member are members of the local church not the UPC.

Still Not Getting It
 

True, but most signs in front of the church say United Pentecostal Church, or UPCI affiliated, what's the difference? What are you saying, the pastor can be UPC, but the people can be whatever they want? I agree, it's of no value to "burden" the church with the "politics" of the organization, but, if that sign states, UPC or UPCI affiliated, then the congregation is UPC!

The church I pastor is not aff. and could have a ind. or UPC or whatever preacher. So they are not bound by the UPC.

Do you use PPH Sunday School material or other literature from PPH? What about the various offerings and missionaries? Are folks aware of the things the UPC is trying to do through the cooperation of thousands of churches?

Perhaps you desire to protect folks from some of the turmoil that gets brewed from time to time, but they must realize that there's a "bigger world out there."

Okay....
 

You are an exception. But what about those that are affiliated, don't they have a right to know what's happening in their orgainization?

Haven't read through this thread yet but I agree with what you say here. You pretty much took the words out of my mouth.

If people in the congregation have questions regarding anything they hear or are concerned about they can talk to the pastor. Or if the pastor feels it's good to share decisions made by the ministers that might could affect the church that's up to him and he can give an update from the pulpit if he feels it's necessary or good.

But he isn't obligated, and some of the decisions made most people wouldn't be very much interested in for the most part.

Amen to this one
 

Well put my friend! There is a bigger world out there and the local congregation whether affiliated or not deserves to know about it from the ministry. If not, they'll learn it, sorry for lack of a better term, from the streets!

WE do use PPH lit. but after GC will not be supporting anything but missionaries and we wil be replacing those with missionairies who are no longer aff.

Huh?
 

"WE", your past posts state you as being UPC but not your church. So your disagreement with what happened in GC IS affecting your church's stance on political issues! I would then suppose you DID speak Politically to your church that you were disfellowshipping the UPC to include "WE" in your response.

I haven't brought anything before the church. I won't burden them with it. I will use any good man UPC or not. BUt I will find out how he voted before he preaches here.

Did you go and vote?

SURE DID

What a waste of your time. Did you get leprosy while you were there? LOL!

I don't question your integrity
 

Brother, I don't question your integrity. The first post of this thread simply stated from Carpenter that DB wrote a letter to his constituency of the events from GC. He said that they haven't heard a word from their DS. His comments were that if these people "proudly" wear the UPC badge, they had a right to know what's going on. You are saying along with Coonskinner that you don't burden the people with the politics cause they aren't in the UPC, you, as the minister, are the only one in it. If you disagree with a resolution, it will filter in your sermons. But to deny information to the people will provide irreparable harm to them.

It appears that it was a waste of time and money. I left right after the vote and came home.

Well, at least you had the decency to vote, which I suppose gives you the right to complain.

And up until this point have been a supporter.

All that time and effort into being a supporter thrown away! The question you now have to ask yourself is; will I throw away all that I did, or will I stand and make a difference with a church that I love? Can you make a difference, or better yet, will you stay and make a difference?

The die has been cast. One can only go so far. Many think that the UPC is like the Titanic it can't sink. They danced to the music until the lst lie boat was gone.

Anything can sink and some things should, but some things are worth trying to preserve and worth fighting for too bro.

Dontcha think? :)

Do I read that you're a quitter? Please tell me you're not a quitter! Do you have the fortitude to help make a change? Or do you endorse quitters?

But one can't lose their life trying to save those who don't want to be saved.