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-   WPF News (https://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/forumdisplay.php?f=46)
-   -   Tulsa Report Day 2 (https://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com/showthread.php?t=11829)

pelathais 01-29-2008 10:29 PM
Re: Tulsa Report Day 2
 
I have just become aware of how some have chosen to silence themselves. I am only suspecting, but I feel that there is a high probability that I am correct that their choice has something to do with this thread. So I am bowing out.

An accusation was made against the UPC in general. I challenged that accustation. It seems that the accusation has been withdrawn, though I am met with silence and not a formal withdrawl.

If however, anyone feels that I have some accounting to do or if you just have questions, please feel free to PM me. I consider the thread now closed otherwise.

CC1 01-29-2008 10:36 PM
Re: Tulsa Report Day 2
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rgcraig (Post 373256)
For the most part I completely see what you are saying here. Where we might differ is that I think our uniqueness can be seen in our fruits, our example - - there is something different about a spirit filled person that has a close relationship with God and it's not their hair and skirt.
I also believe the focus is wrong - - shouldn't be on orgs and fellowships, but saving the lost.

Good post.
Renda, most times conservative and so called "lib" Pentecostals share the same concepts but differ so greatly in the application of the concept or principle that the two views then become unrecognizable as being similar.

The sentance in your post that I highlighted says it all.

A prime example is the sermon I listened to by Pastor Danny P from Colorado at the AMC conference. The first 45 minutes could have been preached at Christ Church. It was biblical and on the money. It was the last 1 1/2 hours were his application extended to not allowing people under 18 in his church to own cell phones or anybody in his church to be on the internet that I realized I had entered the Twilight Zone.

seguidordejesus 01-29-2008 10:43 PM
Re: Tulsa Report Day 2
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CC1 (Post 373585)
Renda, most times conservative and so called "lib" Pentecostals share the same concepts but differ so greatly in the application of the concept or principle that the two views then become unrecognizable as being similar.

The sentance in your post that I highlighted says it all.

A prime example is the sermon I listened to by Pastor Danny P from Colorado at the AMC conference. The first 45 minutes could have been preached at Christ Church. It was biblical and on the money. It was the last 1 1/2 hours were his application extended to not allowing people under 18 in his church to own cell phones or anybody in his church to be on the internet that I realized I had entered the Twilight Zone.
Was that where he "quit preachin' and got to meddlin'"?

CC1 01-29-2008 10:52 PM
Re: Tulsa Report Day 2
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by seguidordejesus (Post 373597)
Was that where he "quit preachin' and got to meddlin'"?
I don't want to be offensive so I can't really say what I think he did once he left preaching!!!:toofunny

(However in addition to the first 45 minutes being good he is an excellent singer and I enjoyed his singing greatly)

Barb 01-30-2008 12:32 AM
Re: Tulsa Report Day 2
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissBrattified (Post 373394)
PP, you were belaboring this point a few days ago, and its still moot. It is highly possible that their intent did change, OR its possible they did not share their full intent at the beginning.

If your point is (as it seemed to be on your other thread) that trusting in these men, respecting them, and thinking they are honorable even when evidence may indicate otherwise somehow taints the character of the man who trusts them, then I am going to strongly disagree with you.

I have a hard time believing ill of people I love, even if there is clear evidence that ought to persuade me, and if it turns out that I am wrong, I will not accept it until the evidence is irrefutable. Even then I am not happy about it.

Any reluctance on the part of CS, Steadfast and others to think badly of any of these men, or worse, to indicate that publicly...that doesn't speak ill of their personal character; it speaks well of it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MissBrattified (Post 373406)
I understand what you're saying. :)

But then, I am a little bit inconsistent in this way too. I will accept negative statements about a stranger (or about someone I don't like) a lot quicker than about someone I care about or admire. Human nature, I think.

Matter of fact, I've been known to defend people I care about even when I knew they were wrong, simply because I didn't want to hear them talked about.
Two great posts, Abi, and I am in total agreement...

Coonskinner 01-30-2008 03:40 AM
Re: Tulsa Report Day 2
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pastor Poster (Post 373375)
But he has been mistaken before. He said that there would be no organization formed from the defectors - and here we are.:TulsaTime:


That's a lot of trust in hearsay.

(nothing against Steadfast)

PP, in one instance of which you speak, he reported accurately something he was told; this time, he is reporting something he personally knows about, not hearsay.

In neither case was he "mistaken." He was simply relating what he heard, and specified it as such, in the first instance.

This time, it is a matter of personal knowledge.

Fiyahstarter 01-30-2008 04:39 AM
Re: Tulsa Report Day 2
 
I have a tongue twister for you. Repeat five times very quickly.

Tip Toeing thru the Tulips to Tulsa.
Tip Toeing thru the Tulips to Tulsa.
Tip Toeing thru the Tulips to Tulsa.
Tip Toeing thru the Tulips to Tulsa.
Tip Toeing thru the Tulips to Tulsa.

Be real, folks. What is this REALLY all about?

RevBuddy 01-30-2008 07:31 AM
Re: Tulsa Report Day 2
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pastor Poster (Post 373409)
Miss B, I just have a hard time believing all the garbage about "they changed their mind since conference."

Where are all of those affirmation statement threads where these guys called for "the truce breakers" to be thrown out on their ear?

The inconsistency reeks.
Preach it, PP!!!!

Maybe, just maybe some of these guys will get the point...and then again, maybe not...

:TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO: :TulsaNO:

revrandy 01-30-2008 07:33 AM
Re: Tulsa Report Day 2
 
I don't know.....something about

Having their Cake and eating to too...:D

Coonskinner 01-30-2008 07:39 AM
Re: Tulsa Report Day 2
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by revrandy (Post 373757)
I don't know.....something about

Having their Cake and eating to too...:D

What is it that you mean here, Brother?

revrandy 01-30-2008 07:59 AM
Re: Tulsa Report Day 2
 
the prhase has been on my mind lately...

From the Garden of Eden until today I don't think we as people have changed much...

Education, Technology and the Times may have changed but our most basic needs haven't....Acceptance, Fellowship and Relevance....

Liberals and Conservatives aren't that different in actions...

Coonskinner 01-30-2008 08:04 AM
Re: Tulsa Report Day 2
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by revrandy (Post 373764)
the prhase has been on my mind lately...

From the Garden of Eden until today I don't think we as people have changed much...

Education, Technology and the Times may have changed but our most basic needs haven't....Acceptance, Fellowship and Relevance....

Liberals and Conservatives aren't that different in actions...

Ok. :)

revrandy 01-30-2008 08:16 AM
Re: Tulsa Report Day 2
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coonskinner (Post 373767)
Ok. :)
They may live different lifestyles but they are still each doing what is right in their own eyes and many base these decisions on acceptance, fellowship and relevance....whether right or wrong....

You are or become who you hang out with.....rings true.....If I hung out with the WPF crowd I would do the things they do....

If I hung out with the more Liberal crowd I would probaly do the things they do over time...

what to do in the middle tho???........:dunno.......:)

Coonskinner 01-30-2008 08:20 AM
Re: Tulsa Report Day 2
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by revrandy (Post 373774)
They may live different lifestyles but they are still each doing what is right in their own eyes and many base these decisions on acceptance, fellowship and relevance....whether right or wrong....

You are or become who you hang out with.....rings true.....If I hung out with the WPF crowd I would do the things they do....

If I hung out with the more Liberal crowd I would probaly do the things they do over time...

what to do in the middle tho???........:dunno.......:)
And then there are those of us who choose who we "hang out with" based on our convictions, rather than the other way around, as you described.

revrandy 01-30-2008 08:34 AM
Re: Tulsa Report Day 2
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coonskinner (Post 373780)
And then there are those of us who choose who we "hang out with" based on our convictions, rather than the other way around, as you described.
The term birds of a feather flock together certainly rings true....

I do have to get to work as it were!!! :) but I would like to come back to this....

OP_Carl 01-30-2008 09:32 AM
Re: Tulsa Report Day 2
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coonskinner (Post 373252)
Resolution 4 is in my opinion a symptom of what troubles me, moreso than the substance of what troubles me.

I am hesitant to say too much in this medium, because of how easy it is to be misunderstood and quoted out of context. I have been burned pretty bad that way a time or two. But you asked, so here goes...

I think we are losing our sense of uniqueness as a people. We are plagued by a craving for the acceptance and affirmation of the world Jesus said would hate us.

I don't think we should try to be offensive in our manner or our presentation of the Gospel, but the truth is He is referred to as a rock of offense, and s stone of stumbling. We are fooling ourselves if we think we can get all cozy with the trinitarians and the denominational world and still please God.

I think we are reaping the results of a couple of decades of men screaming "Revival!" at all our big meetings rather than preaching and teaching something that would have helped us a lot more--like evangelism and righteousness.

We took down the sign that identified us as the carriers of the message of the Mighty God in Christ and traded it for the sign that said "Revival!"

I believe in revival if I believe in anything, but I'm afraid we are hooked on hype and are willing to swallow most anything if it gives us a false sense of the signifigance in the eyes of the world that we so desperately crave.

I think we are so concerned with being "relevant" to the world that we are in danger of becoming irrelevant to the plan of God.

I don't think we place nearly enough emphasis on the Teacher in the five fold ministry. We like entertainment oriented preaching much better.

We place more value on what appears to be success, I'm afraid, than we do on character. It sways the crowds better and produces better offerings.

We are in love with the machinery of the organization so much that we have a hard time seeing how dysfunctional it is becoming.

There.

That's a start. That ought to be enough to get me shot full of holes from both, or rather all, sides.
Coonskinner, I just LOVE you!

(in a manly, brotherly, non-weird sort of way)

This is EXACTLY what I am seeing. We're adopting worldly methods, mindsets, and even songs, and trying to pass them off as authentically Apostolic.

This is a moment of clarity worth preserving.

RevBuddy 01-30-2008 09:52 AM
Re: Tulsa Report Day 2
 
Originally Posted by Coonskinner
Resolution 4 is in my opinion a symptom of what troubles me, moreso than the substance of what troubles me.

I agree with you, CS, that the resolution is only a symptom...not a root cause. Some have said it is the "straw" that broke the camel's back, but these same folks are not clear on what the other "straws" were.

I am hesitant to say too much in this medium, because of how easy it is to be misunderstood and quoted out of context. I have been burned pretty bad that way a time or two. But you asked, so here goes...

CS, I really do think it is important for each of us to speak up about our feelings on these issues. We are One in Him and the effects of this world on all of us are impacting each of us in a little different manner.

I think we are losing our sense of uniqueness as a people. We are plagued by a craving for the acceptance and affirmation of the world Jesus said would hate us.

[B]Agreed! I believe we are running away from our heritage as fast as we can (as a movement, that is). It seems to me, that in general, our movement is attempting to imitate the previous "charismatic" movement in methods, programs, service style and worship. I strongly believe this is a diasterous mistake. We must cherish that apostolic heritage that has brought us to this point in our history. We are not doing that right now.

I don't think we should try to be offensive in our manner or our presentation of the Gospel, but the truth is He is referred to as a rock of offense, and s stone of stumbling. We are fooling ourselves if we think we can get all cozy with the trinitarians and the denominational world and still please God.

His Word will not return void; it will accomplish the purpose for which it was sent. Yes, we must teach and preach with the love of Jesus, but we must preach His Word and His Truth. I realize that there is a divergence of what is Truth, but the glorious apostolic message that caused me to seek Him is the message for today also.

I think we are reaping the results of a couple of decades of men screaming "Revival!" at all our big meetings rather than preaching and teaching something that would have helped us a lot more--like evangelism and righteousness.

This absolutely has happened. And, many of these voice were promoting "revival" with an evangelastic approach - overstating, in several instances, the actual revival "results." It has caused a crisis of credibility.

We took down the sign that identified us as the carriers of the message of the Mighty God in Christ and traded it for the sign that said "Revival!"

CS, we have also traded the message for some new "method," too.

I believe in revival if I believe in anything, but I'm afraid we are hooked on hype and are willing to swallow most anything if it gives us a false sense of the signifigance in the eyes of the world that we so desperately crave.

Have we left our "first love?"

I think we are so concerned with being "relevant" to the world that we are in danger of becoming irrelevant to the plan of God.

No doubt, this is true.

I don't think we place nearly enough emphasis on the Teacher in the five fold ministry. We like entertainment oriented preaching much better.

We place more value on what appears to be success, I'm afraid, than we do on character. It sways the crowds better and produces better offerings.

We are in love with the machinery of the organization so much that we have a hard time seeing how dysfunctional it is becoming.

The question is "has the organization outlived its effectiveness?"

There.

That's a start. That ought to be enough to get me shot full of holes from both, or rather all, sides.

CS, I'd like to start another thread that discusses these issues in more depth.

Esther 01-30-2008 09:53 AM
Re: Tulsa Report Day 2
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Coonskinner (Post 373252)
Resolution 4 is in my opinion a symptom of what troubles me, moreso than the substance of what troubles me.

I am hesitant to say too much in this medium, because of how easy it is to be misunderstood and quoted out of context. I have been burned pretty bad that way a time or two. But you asked, so here goes...

I think we are losing our sense of uniqueness as a people. We are plagued by a craving for the acceptance and affirmation of the world Jesus said would hate us.

I don't think we should try to be offensive in our manner or our presentation of the Gospel, but the truth is He is referred to as a rock of offense, and s stone of stumbling. We are fooling ourselves if we think we can get all cozy with the trinitarians and the denominational world and still please God.

I think we are reaping the results of a couple of decades of men screaming "Revival!" at all our big meetings rather than preaching and teaching something that would have helped us a lot more--like evangelism and righteousness.

We took down the sign that identified us as the carriers of the message of the Mighty God in Christ and traded it for the sign that said "Revival!"

I believe in revival if I believe in anything, but I'm afraid we are hooked on hype and are willing to swallow most anything if it gives us a false sense of the signifigance in the eyes of the world that we so desperately crave.

I think we are so concerned with being "relevant" to the world that we are in danger of becoming irrelevant to the plan of God.

I don't think we place nearly enough emphasis on the Teacher in the five fold ministry. We like entertainment oriented preaching much better.

We place more value on what appears to be success, I'm afraid, than we do on character. It sways the crowds better and produces better offerings.

We are in love with the machinery of the organization so much that we have a hard time seeing how dysfunctional it is becoming.

There.

That's a start. That ought to be enough to get me shot full of holes from both, or rather all, sides.
CS I agree with what you have said here.

embonpoint 01-30-2008 06:06 PM
Re: Tulsa Report Day 2
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by RevBuddy (Post 373867)
The question is "has the organization outlived its effectiveness?"

There.

That's a start. That ought to be enough to get me shot full of holes from both, or rather all, sides.

CS, I'd like to start another thread that discusses these issues in more depth.
RB,

I believe that this is one of the truly important questions that has been lost in the whole Tulsa discussion. There are many who are leaving or have left the UPCI who are not joining the WPF. There was a parting of the ways coming whether or not there was a WPF. By having the Tulsa meeting they took a lot of attention, certainly on this board anyway, off the question you raise and placed it on themselves.

mizpeh 11-18-2009 11:48 AM
Re: Tulsa Report Day 2
 
Bump for The Dean.

rgcraig 11-18-2009 03:47 PM
Re: Tulsa Report Day 2
 
Miz,

I doubt he'll read or respond.


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