What were you doing in the front seat watching?????

I suppose I'll have to read it now. :coffee2

I know one thing--my Daddy was never real hip on the "system" either.

My Grandpa had a conflict with Bro. Branding years back. Over a pig. :) It's quite a funny little story.

I'm sorry but that sounds absolutely ridiculous. "We need more people so you can start going to movies???"

How firsthand was the knowledge of that statement?

And really, are there churches that have set rules like "You can't go to movies?"

My pastor teaches relationship with God and doesn't feel the need to micromanage our lives. Of course, that probably makes him a liberal.

The problem is...standards alone don't save you. People have to be taught to fall in love with Jesus Christ. When you love somebody you do what pleases them. If we love HIM, we will do what pleases HIM.

Tim, thanks for sharing this history. I vaguely remember Bro. Weeks as I was a young girl and we didn't get to go to camp meeting hardly ever. I didn't realize his death was rather sudden.

I don't really believe that is what they think. I believe they are living their parent's religion and until they meet God for themselves they will continue to follow youthful lust. Not much different than a teenager in any religious or secular setting.

Now Steadfast, in your attempts to make these Tulsa brethren's motives appear as pure as the wind-driven snow, you gotta admit the kid might have a point here.

"Might"?

I KNOW he does.

Let's use a specific example of whether the Tulsa guys are motivated by the UPC drifting "leftward."

I guess "worldly sports" would be considered something these guys would be concerned with, eh?

I notice Rick Treece is one of the "council of 49."

He's a great guy, a fine minister and one of the not-so-many whose ministry is not just a pale reflection of daddy's. He carved out his own niche and is not just "prophecy preacher" Jr.

Marvin Treece was not my pastor. Murrell Ewing was. But Marvin Treece was probably the preacher I tried to emulate as far as study habits, qualifications and professional bearing.

One could sit in front of Marvin Treece and feel the same sense of "qualification" and "professionalism" that one feels in his doctor's or attorney's office.

That's not a common thing to me.

A significant number of "ole time" pentecostal preachers, I wouldn't want or trust to counsel me when to go use the bathroom, much less on weightier matters involving my career or family.

But my relationship with the Treeces goes back many years.

I've preached for them and they've preached for me.

Marvin and Rick never were big "organizational" men.

I don't mean that in a bad sense - but in the sense that Marvin might not go every night to Louisiana campmeeting because he was fatigued from preaching out. Like he told me one time: "I want to be home sometimes."

But I find it rather ludicrous that Rick Treece would be on the general board of a new organization predicated on being more "holy" and "conservative" than the present day UPC.

But anyway, back to "worldly sports."

My ex-brother-in-law has attended Apostolic Temple for many years.

And yes, we still have very friendly relations.

His sons are and were extremely good high school athletes ... almost borderline college-scholarship athletes. Baseball and basketball, primarily.

And yes, with all the "immodest clothing" and "worldly atmosphere" and all the tired old cliches "old time pentecost" throws at these things.

I checked with my son and daughter to be sure my facts were straight and they mentioned times when their cousins could not be at youth camp because of American Legion baseball schedules.

Now me personally?

I'M not calling "hypocrites." My children's cousins are fine young men and I'm glad they are examples of 21st century apostolic youth, ALONG with Kathleen Herles.

I guess the stone-throwers like this "Melody" would rather have them on a barstool than wearing a dress that shows a little shoulder or wearing basketball shorts.

I'm not condemning - I applaud Pastor Treece for not being some micro-manager pastor.

And yes, my ex-brother-in-law's family is involved and are one of the main families at Apostolic Temple - they are not just observers.

Pray tell, HOW would some of these neanderthals in the Tulsa crowd feel if they knew one of their oh-so-conservative general board members allows his youth to play worldly high school sports?

So what is happening?

This is a political shindig where these guys are tolerating in their buddies what they condemn in their political enemies.

That's the truth that this SPECIFIC example brings out.

I won't even TOUCH the TV thing.

But frankly, I don't blame Epley for laughing at some of the names on there who are so dead set against television while their churches are full of them.

I'll leave that alone.

But if any of you people trying to make plaster saints out of this Tulsa gang challenges me on this, I can and WILL name names.

But you people know the truth of that as much as I do.

So JrLa, for a young guy with a lot to learn, you hit the nail right on the head so don't let anyone try to tell you your youth betrays you here.

Tulsa is NOT about "convictions."

It's about POLITICS, pure and simple.

And some of you preachers and others can just wrestle with that all you want to.

Er.....we used to all go "parking" at the same pond in my town. LOL!!!! I was, for the most part, a good boy though that didn't do the things a lot of the others were doing!

I have close friends and relatives though that have stories that are amazing!

I remember in Louisiana in the 70's there was a significanat portion of young people who reacted to the legalism by toeing the line for a few months or year or so then if they slipped up a little they would just throw in the towel and live like the devil until a youth meeting, revival, or youth camp then pray through again for yet another few months or year until they stumbled again and began to repeat the process.

I remember in particular a girl from our "moderate" church who went to live in some town where her brother was at for the summer and he attended an ultra con church. She came back condemming all the girls to hell for wearing open toed shoes, etc until she violated some little aspect of the legalism then yet once again threw in the towel and lived like the devil till the next youth camp. Ah the cycle of life.

I agree with you on this one. Pentecostal teenagers are just like every other teenager until they choose to follow Christ.

Stead....I respond not to question you or your pastorate. I believe you are passionate about what you do. However, I am staggered by this post. Having preached weeks on end in your area for the last 15 years, I can't think of one pastor there that would 'condone' or agree with shacking up or social drinking. It may go on, but they are not in agreement with it.

And then you saying that after dating young people from other churches yours are questioning Baptism in Jesus Name. I don't know of one pastor in your area that has such disrespect for Baptism.