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Quote:

Originally Posted by OneAccord (Post 355229)

I think we, as a whole, aren't getting much better at focusing on restoring someone to the faith after they have fallen. We still have the tendency to "throw the baby out with the bath water'. We lump the sinner in with the sin, rather than exposing the sin for what it is and helping the fallen brother find their way to deliverance. We slam the door of mercy shut on those who fall by ostracizing them, referring to them as any thing but a fallen brother or sister in the Lord.

And we...WE... demand evidence of their repentance. We have got to see their tears of repentance. We demand they display their shame and remorse until WE say it is enough. But its never enough. I don't need to see their snot bubbles... if... if they have repented, the fruit of their repentance will follow. I agree they should be "sit down" for a period to prove themselves, but, isn't that betwen the individual and their pastor?

I don't think alot has changed. We still shoot our wounded. We step on the fallen. We openly speak of those things which are done in secret. And, we haven't shed many, if any tears, for those who are caughts in sins web. And...we will be held accountable.

With what you have written above it would seem to this evangelist that you're saying that it failed?

The picture that you painted above is pretty horrible indeed, and presents an image of hardnosed religion that presses down it's force upon its pleebs.

If this be the facts of an entire movement then what caused you to stay within the movement?

In Jesus name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/

Your question was [QUOTE]

Quote:

Now my question is this, what do you think has changed in the Apostolic Pentecostal movement concerning the subject of this thread?[/QUOTE]

Note the bold part. In regards to the subject of this thread, yes, we have failed somewhat. What are we doing (as a group) to help those who have fallen? If an organization has a program that helps a fallen brother to be restored, I don't know of it. But, it may not be an organizational thing to restore the fallen. Maybe it should be on an individual level. So, I'll ask this...what do we do, as individuals, to help those who have fallen into error?

Why do I stay with the Apostolic Movement? Is it a perfect movement? Does it have ALL truth? Is it THE Church? No, No, and No. But...its closer than some. And its trying. The Apostolic Movement is just that... a movement. Its moving forward in some areas, while, in others, well, not so good. But, there is movement. And as long as there is movement, there is hope that they will continue moving in the right direction.

And, as I think about your question more, Bro. Benincasa, I think of Paul writing in 1 Corinthians. The church there was full of faults and failures. They were divided over water baptism. There was "labeling" (i.e, "I am of Paul..."), There was division and carnality. There was ignorance about spiritual gifts. Some denied the resurrection of the dead. There was sexual immorality. Isn't it true that we still see some of these traits present to day?

Yes, the Corinthian Church seemed to be a failure. But, they were addressed as "... the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called [to be] saints,..." Even with their faults, they were still God's People. It was still His Church. The Apostolic Movement, like all movements, has its faults. But it is still His Church. And thank God... He has provided a remedy for what ails us. Its found in Ephesians... and is called the Five Fold Ministry which is designed by God to bring us to where God wants us to be.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OneAccord (Post 355300)

OA, I find it interesting how it is thrown all upon the movement to restore a fallen minister. Please understand that I in no way am I setting forth an idea to leave anyone out in the cold, but it's an individual (namely the offender) who must be willing to seek restoration.

One must also understand that a minister who had fallen due to sexual offence against a minor carry some major stigmas in our society. We must also ask will this minister be effective to the movement once he is ready?

The fallen minister must be able to accept that restoration doesn't mean climbing back behind a pulpit or being able to be in situations where a accusation can arise. God forgives and sadly people don't, so the Brother must understand that he is under the eye (or suspicion) of some, that wait for the chance to say he is not restored.

The restoration of a fallen minister must be accomplished with a group effort and that group are those who were his ministers in whom he had as teachers, mentors, and elders. Still, it is the offender who must first be willing to do the most work in this restoration process, and the men who are helping the Brother in need must be willing to work hard as well to not give up on the Brother. This can not be done by long distance, but these men must be in close proximity to one another and be able to assemble together if need be.

It sounds difficult because it is, but the one who must work the hardest is the offender, and the first move is being able to admit that he has a problem that he cannot control, an addiction that is stronger than anything he has ever dealt with in his life.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OneAccord (Post 355300)

Why do I stay with the Apostolic Movement? Is it a perfect movement? Does it have ALL truth? Is it THE Church? No, No, and No. But...its closer than some. And its trying. The Apostolic Movement is just that... a movement. Its moving forward in some areas, while, in others, well, not so good. But, there is movement. And as long as there is movement, there is hope that they will continue moving in the right direction.

Would you be able to define this move in the right direction please?

In Jesus name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/

Quote:

Originally Posted by OneAccord (Post 355326)

They were not divided over water baptism, they were choosing their favorite preacher, and teacher. They were replacing Jesus Christ (the Head) with different men who they were saying that they were of THAT teacher. Paul then warns them that they weren't baptized in the NAME of Paul, and so therefore they needed to keep in mind who their true leader was.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OneAccord (Post 355326)

There was division and carnality. There was ignorance about spiritual gifts. Some denied the resurrection of the dead. There was sexual immorality. Isn't it true that we still see some of these traits present to day?

Mainly because this city had chosen to place men as their examples in place of Jesus Christ. If you just have mortal men and they are your only example, you tend to follow their behavior and their patterns, if we as ministers are constantly pointing souls to Jesus' example and ourselves getting out of the view of the people, then maybe beyound any peradventure of doubt they will walk as HE had walked?

Quote:

Originally Posted by OneAccord (Post 355326)

Yes, the Corinthian Church seemed to be a failure. But, they were addressed as "... the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called [to be] saints,..." Even with their faults, they were still God's People. It was still His Church. The Apostolic Movement, like all movements, has its faults. But it is still His Church. And thank God... He has provided a remedy for what ails us. Its found in Ephesians... and is called the Five Fold Ministry which is designed by God to bring us to where God wants us to be.

I highly doubt that Paul was thinking that everyone in the Corinthian church was THE church of God. The letter was instructing those who were laboring with that work to deal with problems that were arising in a wealthy church setting that was overun with false prophets and messengers of Satan. The Corinthians took offerings for the false ministers, while they were starving out Paul and his group of ministers.

In Jesus name

Brother Benincasa

www.OnTimeJournal.com

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/

Quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by OneAccord http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...s/viewpost.gif
I think we, as a whole, aren't getting much better at focusing on restoring someone to the faith after they have fallen. We still have the tendency to "throw the baby out with the bath water'. We lump the sinner in with the sin, rather than exposing the sin for what it is and helping the fallen brother find their way to deliverance. We slam the door of mercy shut on those who fall by ostracizing them, referring to them as any thing but a fallen brother or sister in the Lord.

And we...WE... demand evidence of their repentance. We have got to see their tears of repentance. We demand they display their shame and remorse until WE say it is enough. But its never enough. I don't need to see their snot bubbles... if... if they have repented, the fruit of their repentance will follow. I agree they should be "sit down" for a period to prove themselves, but, isn't that betwen the individual and their pastor?

I don't think alot has changed. We still shoot our wounded. We step on the fallen. We openly speak of those things which are done in secret. And, we haven't shed many, if any tears, for those who are caughts in sins web. And...we will be held accountable.

Wow...insightful post. I could say more, but I'll let you read it in the book I am writing.

Blessings, Rhoni

Quote:

Originally Posted by OneAccord (Post 355229)

I think you are wrong. Again, John the Baptist demanded Fruits meet for repentance. Was he wrong to do so??

I think the issue is not whether anyone would want LW to be restored to Christ. The question is whether a man that has been unrepentant (had the same issue in more recent years) should be used in a leadership position prior to his bring forth fruit (proof) of his repentance, and going through the process of restoration. As it has already been stated. LW never stopped "ministering". He just left the group he had problems in, and went to another. He never humbly submitted himself to the ministry he was under for restoration.

Quote:

Originally Posted by stmatthew (Post 356058)

Some of the stuff I read is just sicking! Love, Love, Love. Love doesn't keep you from preaching the truth to people. As a matter of fact love would insist that you would preach the truth. If you read God's word he instists that people repent!

It would be like watching a baby headed for a fire and saying look, I love that baby so much I'm just going to sit here and watch it get burned!

I know of preachers that have fallen into sin and they are preaching, under the direction of the pastor at their local church today. But he sure had to repent and be restored first.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rev (Post 356066)

Excellant!
Whom the Lord loves He spanks [Weaver Paraphrase]
Where do some get that Charity doesn't tell folks that they are in error and need to change directions?

Check this out:

Quote:

2Sa 12:1 And the LORD sent Nathan unto David. And he came unto him, and said unto him, There were two men in one city; the one rich, and the other poor.
2Sa 12:2 The rich man had exceeding many flocks and herds:
2Sa 12:3 But the poor man had nothing, save one little ewe lamb, which he had bought and nourished up: and it grew up together with him, and with his children; it did eat of his own meat, and drank of his own cup, and lay in his bosom, and was unto him as a daughter.
2Sa 12:4 And there came a traveller unto the rich man, and he spared to take of his own flock and of his own herd, to dress for the wayfaring man that was come unto him; but took the poor man's lamb, and dressed it for the man that was come to him.
2Sa 12:5 And David's anger was greatly kindled against the man; and he said to Nathan, As the LORD liveth, the man that hath done this thing shall surely die:
2Sa 12:6 And he shall restore the lamb fourfold, because he did this thing, and because he had no pity.
2Sa 12:7 And Nathan said to David, Thou art the man. Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, I anointed thee king over Israel, and I delivered thee out of the hand of Saul;
2Sa 12:8 And I gave thee thy master's house, and thy master's wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things.
2Sa 12:9 Wherefore hast thou despised the commandment of the LORD, to do evil in his sight? thou hast killed Uriah the Hittite with the sword, and hast taken his wife to be thy wife, and hast slain him with the sword of the children of Ammon.
2Sa 12:10 Now therefore the sword shall never depart from thine house; because thou hast despised me, and hast taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be thy wife.
2Sa 12:11 Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun.
2Sa 12:12 For thou didst it secretly: but I will do this thing before all Israel, and before the sun.
2Sa 12:13 And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the LORD. And Nathan said unto David, The LORD also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die.
2Sa 12:14 Howbeit, because by this deed thou hast given great occasion to the enemies of the LORD to blaspheme, the child also that is born unto thee shall surely die.
2Sa 12:15 And Nathan departed unto his house. And the LORD struck the child that Uriah's wife bare unto David, and it was very sick.
2Sa 12:16 David therefore besought God for the child; and David fasted, and went in, and lay all night upon the earth.
2Sa 12:17 And the elders of his house arose, and went to him, to raise him up from the earth: but he would not, neither did he eat bread with them.
2Sa 12:18 And it came to pass on the seventh day, that the child died. And the servants of David feared to tell him that the child was dead: for they said, Behold, while the child was yet alive, we spake unto him, and he would not hearken unto our voice: how will he then vex himself, if we tell him that the child is dead?
2Sa 12:19 But when David saw that his servants whispered, David perceived that the child was dead: therefore David said unto his servants, Is the child dead? And they said, He is dead.
2Sa 12:20 Then David arose from the earth, and washed, and anointed himself, and changed his apparel, and came into the house of the LORD, and worshipped: then he came to his own house; and when he required, they set bread before him, and he did eat.
2Sa 12:21 Then said his servants unto him, What thing is this that thou hast done? thou didst fast and weep for the child, while it was alive; but when the child was dead, thou didst rise and eat bread.
2Sa 12:22 And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether GOD will be gracious to me, that the child may live?
2Sa 12:23 But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.
2Sa 12:24 And David comforted Bathsheba his wife, and went in unto her, and lay with her: and she bare a son, and he called his name Solomon: and the LORD loved him.

That mean ole Nathan..........[Totally TIC]

Sometimes the consequences of sin is severe even after repentance! SOmetime the harvest of sinful seeds is a painful bitter crop!

Quote:

Originally Posted by RevDWW (Post 356074)

Excellant!
Whom the Lord loves He spanks [Weaver Paraphrase]
Where do some get that Charity doesn't tell folks that they are in error and need to change directions?

Check this out:

That mean ole Nathan..........[Totally TIC]

Sometimes the consequences of sin is severe even after repentance! SOmetime the harvest of sinful seeds is a painful bitter crop!

Yes, and sometimes the harvest lasts a LLOOOOOGGGGGG time.