Apostolic Friends Forum - The Remission is Different from Forgiveness Myth

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Re: The Remission is Different from Forgiveness My

Good stuff Dan.

Blessings, Rhoni

Re: The Remission is Different from Forgiveness My

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple (Post 583930)

Hmmm,

This looks like a case tho where in both cases those involved were at least ones who had already believed and were baptized.

I am looking for the scripture if it exists that puts repentance as the point where a sinners sins are forgiven before water baptism. So far I have not seen it.

Mike, try flipping the page in your bible. Next chapter.

Acts 3:19

19"

Quote:

Therefore (A)repent and return, so that your sins may be wiped away, in order that (B)times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord;

Crystal clear from the Preacher who preached at Pentecost ...

Also read Adino's plethora of scripture dealing with scripture you say you can't find in this post exploring the reception of sin remission at the conversion of man's heart in repentance prior to water baptism:

Quote:

The idea that forgiveness of sins is received at repentance permeates the NT. Matthew, Mark, Luke and John each make the point that forgiveness is received at repentance by quoting from Isaiah 6:10.

Isaiah 6:10

Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

To understand with the heart and “convert” in Isaiah 6:10 meant to “return to God in faith” or to “repent”. To “be healed” meant to be “made whole” or to be “made free from error or sin.” It meant to be forgiven.

Isaiah 6:10

Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert (i.e., repent), and be healed (i.e., forgiven).

Those who repented would be forgiven.

Matthew 13:15

For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal (i.e., forgive) them.

See also Mark 4:11-12 (which uses “forgiven”); John 12:37-40; and Acts 28:23-29.

To authors Matthew, Mark, Luke (in Acts), and John, “the heart” turning back to God in repentance brought healing / forgiveness.

Acts 3:19

Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Forgiveness is received when the repenting heart converts to faith in Christ.

Luke 24:47

And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

The phrase “repentance and remission of sins” in the Nestle Aland Greek version of Luke 24:47 is “metanoia eis aphesis” which is everywhere else interpreted “repentance FOR (EIS) the remission of sins.”

Mark 1:4

John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for (eis) the remission of sins.

Luke 3:3

And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for (eis) the remission of sins;

John’s baptism pointed to repentance which was FOR the remission of sins.

There is strong evidence to suggest that Luke 24:47 teaches that “repentance FOR (EIS) the remission of sins” was to be preached through faith in the name of Jesus!

Acts 10:43

To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

The repenting heart returning to God via faith in Jesus Christ absolutely SHALL receive the remission / forgiveness of sins.

Acts 2:38 supports this conclusion when you realize that the word “repent” is written in the 2nd person plural, the phrase “be baptized” in the 3rd person singular, and the phrase “for the remission of sins” again in the 2nd person plural.

It is grammatically sound to realize that the 2nd person plural phrases are connected while the insertion of a 3rd person singular phrase is parenthetical. Meaning, sin remission is to be connected to repentance and not to water baptism. Baptism becomes a parenthetical insertion as that which points to the forgiveness received when the repenting heart converts to faith in God through Jesus Christ.

Re: The Remission is Different from Forgiveness My

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rhoni (Post 583931)

Good stuff Dan.

Blessings, Rhoni

Thanx, Rhoni.

Re: The Remission is Different from Forgiveness My

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea (Post 583921)

You still miss it sir ... your logic does not doctrine make ...

We are to hold dear to the doctrine of the Apostles ... not your use of KJV words to fit your paradigm ... as they deal w/ the ONE word they used ...
APHESIS to mean absolute pardon as it deals w/ deliverance.

They , not you, used in their writings different words to deal w/ the baptism of the Holy Ghost ... receiving and filling ....

baptizo ... pletho ... etc.

They indeed used distinctive words ... baptism, filled, etc ... when speaking of the HG. Which brings up an entire different debate dealing w/ pneumatology ... and btw, has been discussed among theologians as to whether they mean the same thing ...

But I digress ...

You see ...the Apostles ... (and we claim to be Apostolic) made no contextual differences ... semantical differences ... or otherwise ... when writing about forgiveness/remission/sin washing/pardon.

Therefore ... your arguments dealing w/ this topic are non-Apostolic and extra-biblical .... but rather the doctrine of men.

Dan a simple question for an HONEST answer if I handed you a Greek testament could YOU read it?

Re: The Remission is Different from Forgiveness My

Dan,

I appreciate your mind and reasoning as well.

My basis for baptism in soteriology is not only Romans 6, but Acts 2:38, 1 Peter 3, Acts 10 and Mark 16:16. I do not believe Mark 16:16 is not original scripture, btw.

Anyway, forgiveness is not different than remission.

Re: The Remission is Different from Forgiveness My

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Epley (Post 583952)

Dan a simple question for an HONEST answer if I handed you a Greek testament could YOU read it?

Sir ... if l handed you a Spanish bible would you read it?

I can't teach your remission is different from forgiveness doctrine using a Spanish bible ... which I do use ... EVEN IF I TRIED TO ....

as for your attempt to dismiss the ability of thousands of bible students who have studied basic Greek terms and the unanimous consensus of theologians ... both expert and amateur ... including David Bernard and Daniel Segraves .... on a basic theological concept/word and it's meaning ...

shows your contempt and/or negligence for interpreting and rightly dividing the Word without bias ... and ultimately TRUTH, IMO.

Simply takes a Greek/English dictionary for this simple exercise, Elder ... not years of linguistic study.

I wonder if I can throw out this desperate barb next time you try to speak authoritatively about the Greek in regards to such words as kouros?

Re: The Remission is Different from Forgiveness My

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple (Post 583895)

Someone please give me a scripture in the New Testament that shows sins are forgiven when we pray. If it exists it would certainly be a powerful tool.

Try on 1 John 1:9

Re: The Remission is Different from Forgiveness My

Quote:

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea (Post 583861)

You see scripture must harmonize, David ... its basic hermeneutics.
...

David Bernard, considered to be a respected teacher/expert by many Oneness Pentecostals is at least honest enough to admit that remission and forgiveness are the same thing. But, then, in order to retain the "Romish" idea of forgiveness/washing/forgiveness of sin by water baptism, and not go against the "current" UPC (as opposed to the "old time" Apostolic/Pentecostal doctrine of "one-step" salvation) idea that water baptism is part of the salvation/new birth experience, has to move forgiveness out from repentance and tie it in with water baptism.

Re: The Remission is Different from Forgiveness My

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Epley (Post 583952)

Dan a simple question for an HONEST answer if I handed you a Greek testament could YOU read it?

Next you'll be spouting that Dan can't could'nt order a hot dog in hebrew.

That is one of the lameest quotes you guys throw about.

We are not ordering hot dogs here.

We are looking at the actual definintions of greek and hebrew words as to what they actually meant to the hearers they were penned to.

Without being able to read a lexicon people will be stumbling about forever thinking some little girl is going to hell for wearing pajamas.

good grief...how long will we defend ignorance.

Re: The Remission is Different from Forgiveness My

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Epley (Post 583952)

Dan a simple question for an HONEST answer if I handed you a Greek testament could YOU read it?

Elder,
I could not read a Greek New Testament.
I do have a couple of interlinear Greek/English Bibles and can verify how the word aphesis or aphiemi are translated in the King James Bible.

APHESIS (Strong's word 859) and APHIEMI (Strong’s word 863) are used as follows in the Greek Scriptures and are usually translated as release, forgiveness, remission, pardon, let go, leave, suffer(permit), dismiss, send away discharge, cancel.

Here is how APHESIS is used in the KJV New Testament:

Mt 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the REMISSION of sins.
Mr 1:4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the REMISSION of sins.
Mr 3:29 But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never FORGIVENESS, but is in danger of eternal damnation:
Lu 1:77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the
REMISSION of their sins,
Lu 3:3 And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the
baptism of repentance for the REMISSION of sins;
Lu 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the
brokenhearted, to preach DELIVERANCE to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to SET AT LIBERTY them that are bruised,
Lu 24:47 And that repentance and REMISSION of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
Ac 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the REMISSION of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Ac 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
Ac 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive REMISSION of sins.
Ac 13:38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that
through this man is preached unto you the FORGIVENESS of sins:
Ac 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive
FORGIVENESS of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
Eph 1:7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the FORGIVENESS of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the
FORGIVENESS of sins:
Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no REMISSION.
Heb 10:18 Now where REMISSION of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

to be continued: