Originally Posted by Carpenter (Post 597132)

It has been preached for years and independent churches (or the concept) has been condemned, because they refuse to come under any sort of accountable leadership...which you know in the UPC when you refuse to come under leadership you are instantly considered rebellious.

This notion reflected on two large churches in our city one UPC and one independent (Apostolic) that were like the Apostolic version of the Hattfields and McCoys....but not so much anymore as one of the pastors retired.

Every time saints came to the UPC from that church they were coming out of the wilderness and deadness and from darkness into the light, and when they left the UPC to go to the independent, those saints were rebellious and full of bitterness...and oh yea, were unwilling to bow to leadership.

:D

Originally Posted by Carpenter (Post 597132)

It has been preached for years and independent churches (or the concept) has been condemned, because they refuse to come under any sort of accountable leadership...which you know in the UPC when you refuse to come under leadership you are instantly considered rebellious.

This notion reflected on two large churches in our city one UPC and one independent (Apostolic) that were like the Apostolic version of the Hattfields and McCoys....but not so much anymore as one of the pastors retired.

Every time saints came to the UPC from that church they were coming out of the wilderness and deadness and from darkness into the light, and when they left the UPC to go to the independent, those saints were rebellious and full of bitterness...and oh yea, were unwilling to bow to leadership.

:D

Originally Posted by ManOfWord (Post 597246)

Yeah, it's like there's not enough sinners to go around! :D

Originally Posted by TalkLady (Post 597459)

:ursofunny..........Coming from an Independent background, we heard it in the exact opposite manner. It's all a matter of perspective and BACKGROUND!

Originally Posted by MamaHen (Post 597508)

One could also skip the "tax-exempt" status, and keep their freedom of speech & freedom of religion, and not get fitted with a governmental muzzle.

One could also not get a bank loan....I was always taught debt was a bad thing....

If God wants something to happen, He will make it so.

Just my 2 cents :-)

Originally Posted by ManOfWord (Post 597519)

I don't have any governmental "muzzle."

Debt is not a bad thing. The misuse of debt is a bad thing. :D

Originally Posted by Charnock (Post 596864)

Should every pastor and church be connected to a denomination?

Can there be true oversight without denominational affiliation?

Are independent churches operating in rebellion?

Originally Posted by TRFrance (Post 596923)

Charnock, since you asked those questions, tell us...

What do YOU think?

Originally Posted by Charnock (Post 596976)

I believe there is some good in denominational affiliation. Foremost being benefits like fellowship, accountability, tradition and ministerial presbytery. Denominations also pare down doctrinal ambiguity in the local assembly. The general population needs only look at a local church's denominational affiliation in order to discern what to expect when attending.

However, I believe there is just as much good in nondenominational assemblies. Autonomy does not necessarily imply lack of oversight. Many nondenominational churches have very strong accountability systems. The lack of an external presbytery can be a blessing as well. This frees the nondenominational church to be individualistic, unique and completely homogenous.

Abuse is possible whether a church is tied to a denomination or not, and often the denomination itself is abusive. Further, denominations can tax the local assembly into oblivion. I have seen this happen on many occasions within the United Methodist Church. Invariably local churches end up serving the bureaucracy of the denomination instead of the denomination serving the local church.

Originally Posted by Charnock (Post 597597)

Was the early church set up as an organization, or as autonomous assemblies?

What of Jesus' communication to the seven churches in Asia Minor (Revelation 1-3)? He addressed each church individually, realizing that churches are defined by geography, ethnicity, secular government and spiritual dominions.

Originally Posted by Carpenter (Post 597537)

Do your ushers carry those little credit card machines around when it is time to collect tithes and offerings?

:D