Re: Are we really New Testament Church???
 

its part of salvation and cant be separated.

Re: Are we really New Testament Church???
 

Hadassah rephrase last post I lost ya

Re: Are we really New Testament Church???
 

For the record, Dordrecht, I AGREE WITH YOU.

With that said, I think KWSS deserves a mature and studied response. IMO, he has thrown down a gauntlet that has needed to be thrown down for a VERY LONG TIME! Let's face it... if we are truly apostolic so far as what the word is really supposed to mean and not tied to a denomination... then why don't we see the miraculous like they did in the first century? Jesus said, "And these signs shall follow them that believe..." in Mark 16. So, where are the signs?

<Insert sound of crickets chirping here>

I agree with you, Dordrecht. I don't believe Jesus ever intended for the miraculous to be phased out. Miracles are performed to bring glory to Jesus and so that the unbelieving might believe. But in practice, our liturgy and our tradition and our own preconceived notions of how we think God should/will/can move limits the flowing of His power through us and in us. We've contained God in these boxes that we call church buildings and sanctuaries - things the first century church never imagined. Christianity was the first and only religion to NOT have holy buildings or holy objects or a holy clergy. But we've certainly added it all because we thought we needed it.

KWSS, I believe there are many people who operate in the role of an apostle, though most would probably not add the title to themselves, just as I believe there are those who operate as prophets in the church (for example, I personally believe that Royce Wilson has functioned in the role of prophet at times). The five-fold ministry is not about offices or titles, it's about roles that are to be functioning in the church.

It's a valid question that deserves a response. You've challenged me today. If we're not seeing the miraculous, it's not because God has stopped doing the miraculous. It's because we've stopped allowing Him to do it through us. We need to get rid of the old wineskins!

Re: Are we really New Testament Church???
 

I am a proof person you want me to believe it show me proof kind of like ghost want me to believe in ghost show me one...

Re: Are we really New Testament Church???
 

Romans 1:1
Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,

The word "apostle"....

652 // apostolov // apostolos // ap-os'-tol-os //

from 649 ; TDNT - 1:407,67; n m

AV - apostle 78, messenger 2, he that is sent 1; 81

1) a delegate, messenger, one sent forth with orders
1a) specifically applied to the twelve apostles of Christ
1b) in a broader sense applied to other eminent Christian teachers
1b1) of Barnabas
1b2) of Timothy and Silvanus

The argument that there aren't any Apostles in the church today is silly in my opinion. I'd go as far as to say we're all called to be Apostles. ;)

Ephesians 4:11
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

Re: Are we really New Testament Church???
 

But if we are apostles none of us have the power to perform marculous (sp) signs and wonders

Re: Are we really New Testament Church???
 

Correction:
We DO have the power! Unfortunately, we also have an identity crisis. Since we don't really understand who we are, we also end up not using the power and authority we've been given.

:sad

Acts 1.8 - Jesus speaking...
"But ye shall receive power after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you..."

Re: Are we really New Testament Church???
 

I really think we fall under the disciples of christ rather than apostles because not all disciples were apostles and there was only 12 apostles..

Re: Are we really New Testament Church???
 

Miracles are still happening today.
Read some of Sister Janice Alvear's Articles on her website.

Re: Are we really New Testament Church???
 

It's not about "power". It's about "calling" and "faith". That's what Simon Magnus couldn't understand.

Miracles are not the product of power. They are the product of a combination of "calling" and "faith". Some have the "faith" but not the "calling" to perform a miracle. Others have the "calling" but don't have the "faith". I have a wonderful book on every miracle on the Bible. It charts how the outbreak of miracles comes as a result of a move of God. For example, you see many miracles in the Exodus as God was delivering his people...but then miracles seem to become fewer and fewer as Israel's history progresses. Sure, there were small instances of miracles...but by and large these were exceptional instances, most didn't see or receive a miracle. There was miraculous providence throughout this historical period but few real "miracles". Then you have an extraordinary outbreak of miracles around the time of the prophets Elijah and Elisha as they issued the "Word of the Lord" to the people. TThen after Elijah and Elisha other prophets spoke and there were miracles but miracles were fewer. Then there was a famine from hearing the prophetic utterance altogether. A 400 year famine. Then came John the Baptist preparing the people for their Messiah. Then Jesus unleashed the power of the Gospel on the scene. After Christ's death the Spirit moved mightily in the Church, as she preached the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Then, just as with Israel, history marched on, the church institutionalized, apostatized, and miracles become fewer and outbreaks were sporadic in distant pockets among the nations. Then various men of God spoke and often miracles were reported in their wake. Then we see a mighty outbreak once more as the Pentecostal experience brought forth the restoration of the Apostolic Church and the Apostolic Gospel that was preached by the Apostles. But again, as with Israel, we've seen fewer miracles as we've become institutionalized and taken the message for granted.

Here's the deal...miracles don't happen at will. They don't happen for our benefit. They are not a promise and they are very infrequent historically speaking. No one has the "power to work a miracle". Miracles serve one purpose and one purpose ALONE...miracles glorify God and validate a message. It might be a message from a prophet, it might be the message of Christ himself, the message of the Church that Christ is risen, the message of the baptism of the Holy Ghost, the message of Oneness, the message of Acts 2:38. This is why miracles are seen more in "revivals" than daily church activities and functions. Because if a man is a REAL man of God he has a REAL message and the Spirit validates that message with miracles and miraculous happenings. It's about glorifying God and validating the message. When miracles taper off....the message is lacking, neglected, or taken for granted. This is why more miracles are seen in the mission field where the full Apostolic Gospel is being preached for the first time. So first, one needs the "calling" to deliver a REAL and TIMELY message to set the stage of a miracle.

Second, there must be faith. If the preacher's faith is lacking, he could have a message...but not the faith to let it be validated by the demonstration of miraculous power. Sometimes the preacher as faith...but the people don't. In those instances you will see few miracles.

So miracles are something I believe we misunderstand. They serve a purpose during a specific moment when the Spirit moves on a man to do or say a certain thing. They are not "powers" to be used at will like those found in super hero comic books. Sadly this misconception cuts both ways. It causes skeptics to wonder wear the "power" is....and it frustrates true saints who think these things are "powers" to be used at will. The key is understanding that a miracle serves a purpose and it's all about validating the message to the Glory of God. The questions I ask are...is this the right time for a miracle? Is there a message to validate? Is their faith in the preacher and the people to receive the miracle? Those are key.

Just my opinion. It's very complex and there are different elements to this, but the above is a very general expression of my understanding. Hope that helps out some. God bless.