KwaiQ wrote:This does not make much sense. Maybe you can elaborate. What puts limits on God? If I would say that God can't sin, would that be putting a limit on God? If his holiness doesn't demand that sin be dealt with for fellowship with the human spirit to take place, then please tell me why fellowship was ever broken off in the first place. Maybe it would help if you explained to us what it meant for man to die spiritually. Never said it did. Where'd this come from?Yes... but what's your point again? Again, please define spiritual death. What happened in the Fall?

Just picking your mind a bit....

God bless, friend

Spiritual death is separation of man from God by man's actions. Sin does not mean "a place God can't go".

You (I think) are implying that because Cornelius was not baptized he was still in sin, so how could God's Spirit fill him?

When Cornelius repented, it left him in a repentant state meaning he had turned his back on his disobedience and sought after God. God's Spirit filled him, renewing his Spirit. (Titus 3:5) The only thing left was to accept Jesus' death on the cross by applying the blood. (Romans 6:4)


Putting limits on God was the statement you made "The concept is that a holy God cannot fellowship with sin simply because sin causes separation from God. Sin violates the sovereignty of God."

God can be anywhere. Even with a sinner. Otherwise no one could be saved. Because we are all sinners. It does not make much sense to me why you believe "sin" is like a physical substance or something?

Sin is the condition of a man who has chosen to disobey God's commands.

Hope this helps clarify my response to your post.

What's interesting ... KwaiQ is that if you were teaching holiness standards and God's holiness you'd use a lot the language and biblical principals used by Adino in this thread....

As for your argument that God is everywhere .... hence even w/ a sinner ...
this is negating that which is spiritual ... while focusing in only 3-D ... height, width, depth,

In your doctrine and newly adapted 3-D model... do feel that since God is everywhere ... he, the Holy Spirit, already fills the heart of, and communes with, the unrepentant sinner who hasn't manifested the evidence of speaking in other tongues ... I think not!!!!

When does he abide in us ... and we in him?

Kwai sin doesn't separate us from God ... and this separation didn't affect our fellowship w/ God?

http://www.hawksforchrist.com/images/salvation1.jpg

http://www.hawksforchrist.com/images/salvation2.jpg

In your opinion what or who brings each individual man in communion once again w/ God?

Thanks for your input thus far, KwaiQ.

You said:
Please tell me.... In this separation is the human spirit without "life?"

It seems we're talking past each other here. I never said sin was a place God couldn't go to. I'm stressing that sin's consequence is separation. If sin is present, so is it's consequence unless sin has been dealt with in the eyes of God. You seem to be saying that sin doesn't have to be dealt with in order to have fellowship with God. This is simply incorrect. God is just and his justice must be appeased in order for fellowship. There must be reconciliation. The breach of his word and its consequence of death/separation must be dealt with. If there is no need to deal with sin and its consequence, then there was no need for a savior.

Yes, but more to the point.... How could Cornelius' dead human spirit be quickened to life by the indwelling Spirit of God if he was still dead in his sins? The sin issue must be dealt with before life can return.

This I agree with.

This, I believe, is incorrect and where you have fallen short in your answer to my ultimate question. If the blood was not yet applied then he was still dead in his sins. He could not have been alive in the spirit and still DEAD in his sins. This is directly contradictive. Explain to me how this can be.

That sin compromises fellowship does not "limit God".... it showcases God's holiness and sovereignty. Like I said, the sinner vies for Lordship. If you don't understand how this is please reread my previous post.

That God is omnipresent has not been questioned here. Omnipresence has nothing to do with quickening the dead human spirit to new life. Whether God quickened Cornelius' dead human spirit to new life without first having dealt with the issue of his sin is at question. My ultimate question is how new life can come when the cause of death has not been removed.

Never said it was. Sin is any breach against God's word. It is disobedience.

I think it is better said that "dead" is the condition of the man. Sin is the breach of God's command which brought the condition. Sin brought death.

I think we're getting there :nod

Please address this issue of Cornelius receiving the spirit of life while still being DEAD in his sins. Thanks.

I have to go to work now, but consider this. Adam sinned in the garden of eden, yet God fellowshipped or communed with him after the sin. Saul sinned against God, yet God "fellowshipped" with him on the Damascus road.

I'll try to post more at length later on today. God bless!

God may have interacted, but a relationship which they once had was destroyed. Adam was now dead. He was without Life. He was without God.

His human spirit was in desperate need of being made regenerate of God. The human spirit needed to be born again of God (John 3:6). How can this take place without SIN which brings DEATH being taken care of?

If the relationship can be restored without sin being first removed then there was no need for Calvary.

How could Cornelius have still been dead in his sins if the "Holy" living Spirit of God dwelt in him?

If the relationship between the human spirit and the Spirit of God can be restored without sin being first removed then there was no need for Calvary.

The theological implications of the baptismal sin remission position are enormous.

If we sin as a saint according to your initial response to kwaiQ, we will be separated from the Holy Spirit which is in us. Recognizing this sin is not the same as confessing and repenting of it. Would you call a saint who falls into sin as one that abides in Christ?

We abide in him if we don't sin. What prevents the Spirit from coming and going constantly in a Christian who is struggling with a sin?

Another example might be the churches in the book of Revelation. Why didn't Jesus take the candlestick away and remove his Spirit from the churches with whom he was displeased?

His Spirit guides us and comforts us. Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Notice the last part of Titus 3:5 renewing of the Holy Ghost.

this word in the Greek is:
anakainōsis
Thayer Definition:
1) a renewal, renovation, complete change for the better
Part of Speech: noun feminine

God's Holy Spirit guided Cornelius, a repentant man to a saved relationship with God by the Blood of Jesus Christ being applied through his baptism. This man was clean, just as the man delivered from a devil was clean for a season. The "home" of the unclean Spirit was clean. The same could be said of Cornelius. He was clean, yet not delivered. See Mat 12:43-45.

Baptism is required for salvation.
Acts 2:38
Mark 16:16
Matt 28:18
John 3:5
Mat 3:16 Jesus shows us the example