You showed no such thing! You did not show even one passage of scripture that says some abominations (referring to things that are morally detestable, not to things that are ceremonially unclean) are more or less abominable than others."

That is true.

I never said that all homosexuals have reprobrate minds. I was just saying that homosexuality is associated with defiling God's image. People defile God's glory and so God gives them over. Paul said that homosexuality is actually named as being a vile affection to which God gave people up.

"God also gave them up to uncleanness" -- associated with dishonouring their bodies between themselves.

"God gave them up unto vile affections" -- Lesbianism and homosexuality.

"God gave them over to a reprobate mind" -- Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Rom 1:30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Rom 1:31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Rom 1:32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

I never said what you accused me of saying.

I never said they were. :) You need to read more carefully, sis.

Hello? Some things you get stoned for and other things you aren't stoned for. Only one thing that God appears to have thought worse than breaking up a marriage over and it wasn't lying...

It isn't stated in black and white but certianly visible to those with abstract reasoning ability. :girlnails

Eating shellfish was an abomination in the old testament as well. Would a person be stoned for that?

Lev 11:10 KJV And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an abomination unto you:

But that does not diminish the fact that homsexuality is still an abomination. Some things WERE abomination in the old covenant, but distinctly said to not be forbidden in the new. But Romans 1 repeats the disdain of God for homosexuality in the new as well as the old covenant. There is quite a bit of difference between homosexuality and eating shellfish.

Stone me I eat catfish.

lol And I eat oysters.

But there is a difference between things that were ceremonially unclean (eating shellfish) and things that were morally detestable (idolatry, homosexuality, lying).

Do you really have such poor reading comprehension skills that you can't understand "You did not show even one passage of scripture that says some abominations (referring to things that are morally detestable, not to things that are ceremonially unclean) are more or less abominable than others"? The only proper response is to show specific passages of scripture showing us that some abominations are more or less abominable than others. Your merely stating that people didn't get stoned for some things but got stoned for others under the Law of Moses doesn't show us anything! The Bible never said that children rebelling against their parents was an abomination but in Exodus God commanded that such children be stoned to death.

Notice, of course, that it was those who had started worshiping the Creation instead of the Creator that God did all this to. Notice all the different sins that seem to have come about as a result of humanity's first forays into idolatry.

Obviously there were some things that were more destructive to the people than other things. It doesn't appear that lying was one of the sins that was a one way ticket to stoning. Deal with it. :girlnails

Again, you are spouting moral relativism.

Better than making blanket statements that can't be supported by Scripture or examples in Scripture... :coffee2

Exactly.

Not that I made any such blanket statements. And, no, it is not better to spew forth moral relativity because such relativity requires one to deny that the Bible is the absolute inspired, inerrant written revelation of God and that there is no such thing as an actual standard of right and wrong.

I have read your posts on this thread and want to say AMEN.

Chan- Your premise that "There is not even one passage of scripture that says some abominations (referring to things that are morally detestable, not to things that are ceremonially unclean) are more or less abominable than others" isn't true pertaining to the non-eternal consequences that flow from them.

A reasonable person would concede that although of equal eternal consequence; it does appear that there were some distinctions made in Scripture pertaining to acts that were worth stoning someone over and ending marriages over.

Obviously, I don't have a Scripture that says "Some abominations are more or less abominable than others." However, you don't have a Scripture that says "All abominations are equal in the sight of God pertaining to the here and now."

I have never so far as I know; denied that the Bible is the absolute inspired, inerrant written revelation of God. I fully believe that it is the absolute standard of right and wrong.

Taking my cue from Michlow- Given that I don't see the abomination issue exactly as you do, are you now going to talk about my vile and wicked heart? :girlnails

Rhoni,

Your post is very insightful. I totally agree with your statement that one must submit themselves to Christ and have someone in their life to be accountable to during their journey of deliverance.

Truly, the spirit of homosexuality is very strong and many that are bound have been bound for many, many years. Earlier on this thread, it was mentioned that many that have fallen into this sin were molested as children.

Sadly, that is reality for many and injustice of that act becomes a very damaging obstacle to overcome. My heart grieves for those that except the lie that there is no other way but to walk in utter darkness and depravity.

I know that there are many that have been completely delivered from homosexuality and they have become living testimonies for those that want a way out.

Unfortunately, because of the stigma associated with this sin, they aren't at liberty to share their testimonies; therefore, the example of grace is hidden from those seeking their healing.

The word of God clearly states that there is hope for those struggling with homosexuality.

Do you not know that the unrighteous and the wrongdoers will not inherit or share in the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived(misled): neither the impure and immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor those who participate in homosexuality.
Nor cheats (swindlers and thieves), nor greedy graspers, nor drunkards, nor foulmouthed revilers and slanderers, nor extortioners and robbers will inherit or have any share in the kingdom of God.
And such some of you were (once). But you were washed clean (purified by a complete atonement for sin and made free from the guilt of sin), and you were consecrated (set apart, hallowed), and you were justified (pronounced righteous, by trusting) in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Holy Spirit of our God. I Corinthians 6:9-11 The Amplified Bible

Just as many of us once fit in one or many of these categories we have the assurance that Jesus washed us clean and now we are no longer slave to those sins.

Much blessings to you.

I'm the author of the article for those who are interested in having an intellectual conversation about it.

Are you sure you're ready for that, Brad?

I do not know of one scripture that divides the law into ceremonial and moral. Which division does the Sabbath fall under?

I think so : )

Where exactly does the Bible refer to a "spirit of homosexuality?" I think we need to focus on being as Bible-centered as possible when having discussions of this nature. Old-time Pentecostal lingo won't cut it.

What I see, when I went to that web site is a man who came under demonic control. He left his wife and found him a male lover. He is in an abomination, and lest he repents, in Hell he shall lift up his eyes. Now, he dares think to rewrite the scriptures to make that which God hates acceptable. He is full of demonic power, and is in need of deliverance, plain and simple.

Bro. Price,

You should post an article in the teacher's lounge where you work so all the sinners can get convicted!

The teachers at my school know me real well, and we have some fun. We laugh and talk, but when it comes to holiness, though they may be lost, they know the right way of doing things.

So-called "non-eternal consequences" of sin are really irrelevant. This world is going to be destroyed and the only things that will remain are eternal things. Those of you who insist on focusing on such "non-eternal consequences" have your minds and hearts in this present world and not on the things of God (exactly because you are focused on so-called "non-eternal consequences"). This notion you have of some sins being worse than others is nothing more than that philosophy of the world called "moral relativity."

Reasonable according to what standard? A worldly standard? The only reason you and others insist on differentiating among various sins is so that you can make your own pet sins seem to be not as bad as someone else's sins. It's an excuse for spewing venom from the pulpit concerning some sins while not speaking so much as a whisper from the pulpit concerning other sins. It's moral relativity.

Here and now is irrelevant. WE aren't OF this world, WE are of the kingdom of Heaven and ONLY that kingdom's values matter! It is worldly thinking that insists on saying some sins are worse than other sins.

You can't have both your moral relativism and an absolute standard of right and wrong.

Taking my cue from Michlow- Given that I don't see the abomination issue exactly as you do, are you now going to talk about my vile and wicked heart? :girlnails[/quote]The fact of the matter is that you have no scriptural basis for your claim that some abominations (things that are morally detestable) are more abominable than others and, in holding your particular view, you are promoting a form of moral relativity. Moral relativity is a vile and wicked worldview that has no place whatsoever in the life of any Christian.

:preach Preach it Bro...I actually believe this!

Blessings, Rhoni

I don't think he knows what he has coming.. I plan to sit back and watch this one. :coffee2

I'm impressed with Chan's posts on this subject.... nothing like experience to drive someone to really get a grasp on what the Bible really has to say about something.

The hope, of course, is for those who repent of their sins and put their trust in Christ.

Where I would disagree with your post is with this whole notion that homosexuality is a "spirit." Unless the Bible specifically identified it as a spirit (and it didn't), there is no spirit of homosexuality or (as some have said outside this forum) a demon of lesbianism. We tend to give too much power and credit to Satan and his minions.

See posts 15-16 and 21.

If I show you a scripture that says "Jesus said 'Father, if it be your will'" would I also need to show you a scripture that says "Jesus prayed" in order to convince you that Jesus prayed? If you look AT the law you can notice the divisions if you are an objective reader.

Is there a verse that says there is a division of the gospels, historical and church letters in the NT? No, but because we are intelligent creations of God we can obviously see that when we look at how different the 4 gospels are, Acts and then the epistles.

So here is a short summary from Eastons to guide you in understanding

(2.) The Ceremonial Law prescribes under the Old Testament the rites and ceremonies of worship. This law was obligatory only till Christ, of whom these rites were typical, had finished his work (Heb_7:9, Heb_7:11; Heb_10:1; Eph_2:16). It was fulfilled rather than abrogated by the gospel.
(3.) The Judicial Law, the law which directed the civil policy of the Hebrew nation.
(4.) The Moral Law is the revealed will of God as to human conduct, binding on all men to the end of time. It was promulgated at Sinai. It is perfect (Psa_19:7), perpetual (Mat_5:17, Mat_5:18), holy (Rom_7:12), good, spiritual (Rom_7:14), and exceeding broad (Psa_119:96). Although binding on all, we are not under it as a covenant of works (Gal_3:17). (See COMMANDMENTS.)

Now, take a look at the NT and see what things are repeated in teaching to the church that were also in the law...a lot of it pertains to morality doesn't it?

No where does God say there are no more immoral acts. No where does an Apostle teach that suddenly everything is ok to do and there is no such thing as sin.

Heb 9:8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
Heb 9:9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
Heb 9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.
Heb 9:11 But Christ being come a high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
Heb 9:12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
Heb 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of a heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Now, read what Paul says here in Ephesians
Eph 2:15 by abolishing the law of commandments and ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace,

Now, does that include immorality?
If so you have to wonder why Paul includes
Eph 5:1 Therefore be imitators of God, as beloved children.
Eph 5:2 And walk in love, as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us, a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God.
Eph 5:3 But sexual immorality and all impurity or covetousness must not even be named among you, as is proper among saints.
Eph 5:4 Let there be no filthiness nor foolish talk nor crude joking, which are out of place, but instead let there be thanksgiving.
Eph 5:5 For you may be sure of this, that everyone who is sexually immoral or impure, or who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and God.
Eph 5:6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of these things the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience.
Eph 5:7 Therefore do not associate with them;
Eph 5:8 for at one time you were darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light
Eph 5:9 (for the fruit of light is found in all that is good and right and true),
Eph 5:10 and try to discern what is pleasing to the Lord.
Eph 5:11 Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them.
Eph 5:12 For it is shameful even to speak of the things that they do in secret.

Brad, it will be helpful if you use the quote button at the bottom of each post you are responding to so we know who and what you are responding to. You can also break up a long quote into smaller quotes by high lighting a section of text and hitting the yellow quote box at the top of your editor window

BTW Brad, I would gladly like to have an intellectual, bible based discussion with you on this topic. I'm sure Chan would and can

I realize what you are saying and agree with you. However, the scriptures which indicate that Jesus was praying can not be turned around and used to tell someone they too have to pray as Jesus did or they are lost and going to hell. The OT certainly shows different types of laws - some ceremonial and some not. I'm not sure how we came up with the label "moral law" which indicates it is somehow greater than the others. The truth is we can divide the law up into a million pieces. Laws which pertain to men, laws which pertain to women, laws which pertain to the Priesthood, etc. Would the laws written to the Priesthood somehow suggest that they are to be followed by modern priests/pastors?

BTW - I'm trying your quote suggestion. My brain is on overload as a full-time student. I shouldn't be taking on another task (referring of course to this dialogue) but feel it could do all of us some good. You will find I do not get upset and completely respect those with differing opinions. Those who are looking to start a fight are wasting their time with me. I will definitely talk though.

I have actually cast devils out of people that caused them to be homosexual. It is a spirit. The devils shrieked and manifested as I pursued to cast them out. These things are actual and real.

The bible is obvious when it comes to moral and ceremonial laws. Sabbath day is a ceremonial law. Sabbath is done away with today, and was a foreshadow of Christ. It was a religious day of observance. So it is ceremonial.

Shellfish were an abomination, however, the New Testament is clear that forbidden and unclean meats are no longer an issue now. How can one explain why that is the case now?

But moral laws are moral laws now and forever. Morality is morality.

Homosexuality was something I never heard about as a child. When I did hear about it, an instant repulsion occurred in my heart about it. I think this betrays the unnatural and ungodly nature of the act. What we are repulsed by at the start of learning about a thing indicates what is right or wrong. I really believe this.

Introduction
 

I realize there are a lot of mixed emotions presenting themselves in this discussion and I appreciate all of them.

Before I continue with any discussion I need to make a couple points:

1. I am not here to fight or argue. If you have a serious question I will do my best to reply. I will not reply to a list of 20 scriptures [emphasis added of course]. I will, however, deal with one scripture and/or topic at a time.

2. I will not have discussions with mean or hateful people. I am full of love and compassion and prefer to surround myself with others who are as well.

3. Most of my friends and family are in the UPC and are located throughout the country. I have only had 3 people shun or rebuke me for who I am.

4. I am 32 years old and have been "out" since I was 18.

5. I am not in a relationship with anyone at this time in my life and have not been for a very long time. Therefore, comments and accusations that I am only trying to make my Theology match my morality will be ignored completely. I say what I say out a true desire to help others who have been or are where I was growing up in the UPC. I was suicidal at the age of 17 because I couldn't understand why God allowed me to be this way. If you truly knew me you would understand that I am not some liberal with an agenda. Quite the opposite.

6. I have been Music Director at three UPC churches while openly gay. As long as I wasn't "active in the lifestyle" the pastors allowed me to use my talents. These were not all "liberal UPC churches" either. All three pastors acknowledged that homosexuality is beyond their understanding and that after their years of experience they understood one thing: homosexuals do not choose to be homosexuals in the sense that a liar chooses to lie; a murder chooses to murder; a smoker chooses to smoke; a drug abuser uses drugs. I think most church members would be surprised at how many Pastors hold to this view point.

7. There are hurting kids and teenagers in your local assemblies who are struggling with the fact that they are homosexual. In fact, many of you may unknowingly have family members, children, nieces and nephews who are dealing with this in their life. Keep that possibility in mind before attacking someone, like myself, who you don't know.

With all due respect, how is it that you know the demons you casted out caused people to be homosexual?

This kind of comment requires no intellect and insults the countless pastors and parents who have prayed and fasted for years for their homosexual sons and daughters. Who are you to claim to have the ability to cast out homosexual demons? If you have, and if God is greater than you, why would God have allowed so many gay teenagers kill themselves over their homosexuality if he had the power to simply cast out the devils that were making them gay?

The above is evidence of an entirely faulty manner of reading Romans 1. Romans 1 is not written in this manner described above. It is listing why idolatry was associated with homosexuality. It is not saying all homosexuals are so due to idolatry. God gives a general sweep over the entire thought of homosexuality and calls it vile affection, and state of living that God considered punishment to which he gives up an idolator. Whether a homosexual claims to love God or not, the bible said homosexualilty is a vile affection.

So we cannot take Romans 1 and claim it is only speaking about homoseuxals who also are idolators and hatred towards God. Paul stated that God saw people's idolatry and wickedness and gave them up to vile affections. The vile affections were vile affections with or without the idolatry. The vile affections were completely aside from the idolatry, as a form of lifestyle that was considered punishment for people who did commit hatred towards God and idolatry. The vile affection has to exist apart from idolatry, in other words, for God to take idolators and "give them up" to those vile affections. In other words, the vile affections have to be considered vile in and of themselves in order for Paul to write the way the did and say men with men and women with women was what God gave people over to as a form of punishment to them.

If homosexuailty was innocent in and of itself, then why in the world would God ever give someone over to it as though it? What punishment would there be in that? It would be as silly as saying, God judged idolators so He gave them over to a kindness toward puppy dogs. God does not give people over to what would be innocent activities when he deals with sinners.

But, generally speaking, homsoexuality as a vile affection is classed amongst the following:

God also gave them up to uncleanness

God gave them up unto vile affections

God gave them over to a reprobate mind

Anything innocent in and of itself would not be something God "gives one up" to.


Paul said homosexuality is "dishonour their own bodies between themselves:" That is totally apart from idolatry, again. He would not use that language if homosexuality was innocent. There is nothing physically different in the activity of homosexuals apart from having ever been idolators and the activity of homosexuality that was a result from God giving people over to it. To speak of defiling their own bodies between themselves, and the manner in which Paul speaks of this in this context, simply indicates the act itself is ungodly, whether idolatry was involved or not.