I'm sure this is true. Sometimes people take certain positions or lack thereof because of fear of being mis-judged or mis-labeled or to fit in with a certain mindset, but I also think that some would be pretty much the way that they portray themselves and their beliefs.

Well, for me it was very refreshing to me to hear/read LCS say the things she said. Evidently, she does not cower to social pressures of "fitting in" and speaks from her heart. I agree with her, some people would be surprised at who they see next to them in heaven...

I appreciate the UCs that believe as they do and do as they do simply because they do it unto the LORD and do not judge and condemn others that dont see it or do things the way they do... I would step up to bat and duke it out and defend all UCs and their standards if they collectively did not condemn and send to hell those that did not meet their standards...I respect anyone that does something because they want to do it unto the LORD. But I get stoked when some UCs (and sometimes I wonder if these UCs that get me stoked are the loud and boisterous minority among their group...maybe it would do me well to put on my :roseglasses and think better of the majority of that group )...anyway, as I was saying, I get stoked when they begin to condemn folks to hell because they dont meet a certain standard. But it is hard not to put them all in one box when you see them writing and parading songs like "I'm a Pentecostal" by CLC.

Again, I sometimes wonder if there is a silent majority that does not think like this boisterous minority, but what puzzles me is why they remain silent when they are in the majority. I guess right now it would do me well to heed the quote at the bottom of all my posts:


"A common fallacy is the idea that the majority sets the pattern and the trends of social, economic, and religious life. History reveals quite the opposite: the majority copies or imitates the minority and this establishes the long-run developments and socio-economic evolutions."
-Humphrey Neill


:angelsad

Good post, J.

However, I think it would behoove us to remember that it works both ways.

For every staunch UC member who sends a liberal to hell, there is a vocal liberal who condemns the conservatives for their bondage. And yet, on both sides, the silent majority expresses tolerance for the other side.

Sadly enough, it's almost like the Civil War, when brothers fought brothers, and cousins fought cousins, etc. Neither side wanted to kill a brother, but their belief system was so indelibly ingrained in them that they were left no other choice - either kill the opposing soldier, or be branded a compromiser or enemy sympathizer.

It's just too bad that it has to be that way in some cases.........

JR....

Friendships and bonds are formed across these labels and in spite of them too :) and when that happens then you get to see the real person and realize there's more to people than the labels and how they're defined.

It's an eye opener and you come to realize and appreciate the individual for who they are and recognize that they too have the touch and hand of God upon them.

I'm so glad and so thankful that this is possible i.e. that we are able to form relationships & get to know people behind theological persuasions and where they fall on the lib to con scale.

Excellent analogy!!!! :thumbsup

Thanks for the insight, MP...I agree with Pianoman regarding the Civil War analogy!

I agree, Felicity. Wherever they fall on that scale, they're a brutha or sista to me. I would just love to see more of the vocal UCs continue believing strongly as they do without condemning folks to hell...it is at that level where all communication and dialogue breaks down. Without that element (hell) you can have good debate, but when you bring that into the equation then it becomes their ad hominem which is the last refuge of the failed argument.

Well, the way I look at it is that this is what they believe so they don't have any choice other than to make the judgment calls they make, but that doesn't make it right or true. So I can accept the person and love and appreciate them even though they believe someone like myself perhaps won't be saved.

I'm not relying on what other people say in regard to my salvation but on what the Word of God says.

I attend a UPC church and don't follow standards. My opinion is that I will dress appropriately for church and church functions so as not to cause problems. What I wear to the store or to exercise is between me and God.

That's how I live and believe also.

And I agree with you on that, Sis. But I can't help but consider the collateral damage that goes along with those heavy statements...not damage to me particularly, but certainly to many of the little babes in the Lord. :angelsad

Interesting and sad story. Unfortunately, its not only individuals that have taken this path, but also churches.

Too many times, I've seen or known of churches that first decided to step away from the "standards", glorying in their newfound "freedom". But check them out a year later and ... their baptism doctrine has changed; their salvation doctrine changes; they begin to tolerate, then accept, Trinitarian doctrine... next thing you know, they're no longer Apostolic any more.

I'm not really extreme myself on the standards thing -- I consider myself to be moderately conservative. But it never ceases to amaze me how so many churches and pastors have started off by leaving the standards, and eventually departing from Apostolic doctrine altogether.

I've seen it happen over and over; I don't have a clear explanation for why one ends up leading to another (since there's no direct link between the standards and Acts 2:38/Oneness). I guess in many cases there's just a latent spirit of compromise there, that starts with one area and then ends up leading to compromise in other areas. Just my 2 cents .

This is a great post.:hanky

This is a great thread.

Re: The High Price of Intentional Indiscretions
 

There is no easy way to handle such a change but this young couple obviously went for shock value and it became all about them instead of preserving the relationship.

I try to be respectful of my more conservative dressing brothers and sisters, but obviously this young woman had a 'heart' problem to wear immodest clothing. I wouldn't be so concerned with the casual dress pants and ring on the young man's hand, but I would be more concerned with a sheer blouse and a short skirt.

Just thinking about this thread and thought we might want to re-visit it.

Blessings, Rhoni

Re: The High Price of Intentional Indiscretions
 

Just thinking about this thread and thought we might want to re-visit it.

Blessings, Rhoni


------

I have been going to a UPCI church for 21 years. I have no church background before this. Nothing.
What I have concluded in that 21 years, is that if a church body CONTINUALY presses the guilt button on the outward appearance WITHOUT love, we will always have precious men and women of God scream and run for the hills :runhills because the INWARD heart issues were not dealt with.
The question that ran and still runs through my mind is, "Will I still be loved if....if I say what's really on my mind? How I really feel about this issue?"
There are so many things that happen to a young child in life and then we bring all this baggage with us to church and here comes sister holier than thou, and says with pointed finger, "you're gonna go straight to hell if you keep cutting that hair!." ( my hands are accually shaking right now!)
We are not called of God to point fingers.
**We cannot punish people for being honest, or they will secretly hold inside their true feelings, sharing their thoughts with only a few close friends or they will explode!**:reaction
We are called to share the gospel, to advise...one plants , one waters, but God does the rest.
Some people that know me might be surprised at how I really feel about some things. I choose and want to please God. He is the one who molds and fashions me into the vessel he wants me to be.
We need to pray for each other and for pasters and their wives and familys that these inner heart emotions about living up to the "S" word... of church society does not become our righteousness that we wear, but His righteousness that we cloth ourselves with.

Re: The High Price of Intentional Indiscretions
 

I believe church discipline should start off with love and the spirit of meekness, giving the person space to repent, and then it escalating up from there.

The following are scriptures that I believe suit church discipline and illustrate good principles to use:

Matt 18:15-19.

Gal 6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

1Co 4:18 Now some are puffed up, as though I would not come to you.
1Co 4:19 But I will come to you shortly, if the Lord will, and will know, not the speech of them which are puffed up, but the power.
1Co 4:20 For the kingdom of God is not in word, but in power.
1Co 4:21 What will ye? shall I come unto you with a rod, or in love, and in the spirit of meekness?

2Co 12:21 And lest, when I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they have committed.

My personal opinion is that church discipline should start off with going to a person alone and with love and the spirit of meekness and using the word of God, then giving the person space to repent. After the space, if the person still hasn't chang'd, then get 1 or 2 others and go to that person with the word and then give the person space to repent again. If after this space, the person still hasn't chang'd, then take it to the church leadership to deal with him and give him space to repent. Finally, after that space, if the person still hasn't chang'd, then bring it before the whole church and let that person be like unto a heathen person and a publican.

1 Cor 5 shows how Paul dealt with one and I believe 2 Cor 2:1-10 shows Paul's admonishing the truth to re-fellowship with him. Its easy for people to rise up in judgement against those who rebel, but Paul wanted to see if they could be obedient in ALL THINGS by receiving him back, forgiving him, and showing love back to him.

Now some believe that disobedient and/or rebellious people should not be dealt with at all, but that it should be left up to God to deal with them; essentially leaving the wheat and tares to grow together until the end. However, let me remind you that the interpretation of that parable was given later and that "the field is the world". The field is the world NOT the church. The bible is very specific that part of the responsibility of the ministry is to reprove and rebuke; not to show off spiritual muscle and power and authority, but because as a watchman and shepherd, you love that sheep and know that if they continue in what they are doing, it will be harmful for them. Thy rod and thy staff they comfort me - the rod is for correction.

1 Cor 5:6 and Gal 5:9 shows that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump. Because Achon took an idol and hid it in his tent, thousands of God's holy people who were innocent and on the front lines lost their lives even tho they did absolutely nothing wrong. One's man's disobedience caused thousands of innocents to die at the hands of their enemies. Since they had a leader called of God to be their leader, he sought after God to reveal the root cause of the problem and it was revealed and it was taken care of and after that God's people had victory over the enemies of their souls again.

Leaven that is not dealt with in a church will cause the enemies of God's people to have victory over them. A compromising church will lose its power and become a weak church.

God wants his church to be a beacon of light and a shining example to the world where they can go and get deliverance, but a compromised church that is losing its power, loses its witness.

That is why Paul said that he turned some over to Satan to learn not to blaspheme - basically for the destruction of the flesh that the Spirit may be saved - that they would learn.

If a loving mother say her little boy with a fork going towards an outlet but still far away from it, she might say with loving concern, honey don't do that you are going to hurt yourself. If the boy doesn't listen, she might raise her voice and point to him with a stern face and say, I said don't do that, you are going to hurt yourself. Finally, if the boy still persists, she might get up and smack him really hard. Why did she do these things? Because she wants to abuse her power and authority and show off her spiritual muscle? No, because she loves and cares for the little boy and knows that he will get hurt if not die - she does it for him.

So should the watchman and Pastor of the church in my opinion.

Glory to God!

Re: The High Price of Intentional Indiscretions
 

The problem I have with your assessment of the situation is that you liken the saints to children who aren't responsible for their own actions and the ministry as those who are responsible. That's now how it is. We are all responsible for our own salvation. The pastor can tell us the guidelines according to the Bible, but it's up to us to obey them. He shouldn't hit us over the head if we don't listen. It's our own responsibility.

Re: The High Price of Intentional Indiscretions
 

Watchmen on the watchtower have a perspective that those who are not on the watchtower do not have.

Like it or not, the ministry has a God given responsibility to reprove, rebuke, and correct.

I'll be the first to admit that my one analogy does not fit all situations. New born babes in the Lord do not know all of the dangers that they might face, whereas seasoned saints who know the word are more knowledgeable. Hence, a mother might be quicker to scold a teenager that has been warned about something over and over again.

I'm aware that some do not take correction well.

Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

Pro 15:10 Correction is grievous unto him that forsaketh the way: and he that hateth reproof shall die.

But for wise men...

Pro 9:8 Reprove not a scorner, lest he hate thee: rebuke a wise man, and he will love thee.

Finally...

Pro 13:24 He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.

Re: The High Price of Intentional Indiscretions
 

This, of course, is assuming that all watchmen have a perspective and not an agenda.

I have met a few with an agenda. I have met several who have a perspective.

I was only 'beaten' by those with an agenda.

And that bolded part...that's only when they are in the Word, and not the manual.

Re: The High Price of Intentional Indiscretions
 

I don't know all of your spiritual history, but as I stated before, I believe that when a Pastor corrects someone for the first time, I believe it should be with love and in the spirit of meekness, first. If you have never experienced loving, caring correction from a Pastor who truly loves you and is doing it for your sake and not his, then that is sad and disappointing and I'm sorry that that has happened to you.

I believe that if a Pastor shows love and compassion for the sheep that the Lord has blessed him with, that the sheep with respect that man of God because they know what his motivations are - to please God and because he loves the sheep like his master.

Even when God wanted to destroy Israel and raise up people from Moses unto him, Moses interceded on behalf of Israel. Why did he do that? Because he was commanded to or it was written and therefore it was his responsibility? No, he did it because he loved and had compassion on them. If was not feigned and he didn't have to muster himself up to do it. Imagine that God wanting to destroy them and he is God and can do whatever he wants, but because an imperfect man besought and interceded on their behalf, God decided not to do it. Makes me think of when Jesus taught about the owner of the land seeing a tree that had not borne fruit and told the husbandman to cut it down because it was taking up space in the ground but not producing. Now because the owner owned the land, he had every right to ask that the tree but cut down. But the husbandman interceded on behalf of the tree and told him to give him 1 more year and he would dung around it and give it special attention; and then after that, if it still didn't bear fruit, then to cut it down. The husbandman didn't own the land, the owner did; the husbandman was just a servant of the owner. But thank God for true servants of God who love the sheep that the Lord has given them and has compassion for them and interceded on their behalf. Imagine if after the husbandman gave that tree special attention, that it did start bearing fruit. But if the husbandman would NOT have interceded and given it special attention, then the tree would have been cut down and not given a chance to bear fruit when given special attention. I want a husbandman who will love me, have compassion upon me, be patient with me, and will intercede on my behalf and give me special attention if I need it.

I don't know what kind of an agenda some Pastor's could have when the word shows us that he wants servants/husbandman who will love, have compassion, intercede, and give special attention to those whom the Lord gives to care for.

Just because a person graduates from a bible college doesn't mean God has called them to be a pastor. Oh and incidentally, a person doesn't have to go to bible college to be called of God to preach or to be a Pastor.

I agree with you and with Paul when he told Timothy to be instantly ready to preach, repove, and rebuke with all longsuffering and doctrine. Correction must be done with and according to the word of God.

Now I've attended apostolic churches with the UPC and attended an apostolic church for years that was pastored by someone who got publicly rebuked in an apostolic church for adultery and so he left and decided to start his own church and to pastor it. He still preached apostolic salvation but let everyone work out their own salvation when it came to holiness. I gave that Pastor a chance for around 5 or 6 years give or take, but I eventually went back to the UPC church where God saved me and I rec'd spiritual benefit, strength, and it has saved my marriage; all within a very relatively short period of time. I can tell you from personal experience, that there was a significant difference b/n the 2 churches spiritually speaking even though they both preach the same apostolic salvation message.

Not sure if you've come from an apostolic/UPC background or not.

In any event, I hope that you have found or will find a man that God has called to be a Pastor, who was raised and mentored by his pastor, and went into the ministry with his Pastor's blessing, and has a good spiritual history and reputation and can back it up with references.

I hope that you have not/will not throw away truth and holiness because of a few bad experiences.

God bless.

Re: The High Price of Intentional Indiscretions
 

This is an awesome post, brought tears to my eyes. I remember my first pastor was exactly as you described. Thank God for pastor's that are shepherds.

Re: The High Price of Intentional Indiscretions
 

Very good post. Thank you for taking the time to type that all out.

I have learned a lot through the years, and one of those lessons are that pastors are human too, and therefore, make mistakes. I've learned to forgive even if I can't also forget.

I currently don't attend church, but will be after I move in August. My new pastor I know and trust very well.

Thanks again for your time.

Re: The High Price of Intentional Indiscretions
 

So where are YOU moving? Mesa, AZ per chance? :)

Re: The High Price of Intentional Indiscretions
 

You are quite welcome and I'm glad that you've found a pastor that you know and trust. I pray that he is a pastor called of God and not men to pastor His people. God bless.

Re: The High Price of Intentional Indiscretions
 

Thank you for taking the time to express in writing the effect that the post had on you; to God be all of the glory and praise! His word and truth is awesome! He knows what is best for us for our own good! He is faithful to his creation and to His people. God is good!