So you are agreeing with my statement that you have set your sights to be like the church? I never expected to see that.

Not always... sometimes it is honest pastors, strong pastors and wise pastors who see what "thus saith the word of God" and speak honestly to their people about these things.

The people didn't come up with this concept on their own brother.... this concept was delivered to them by pastors. On this issue.. the only cure is in an honest pastorate who will love the people enough and be honest enough with themselves and with God to put down their pride and admit that they can no longer stand by this standard because their primary goal is to love, live and preach the word of God.

That pastor... is a man worthy of more honor than men can bestow.

That pastor... is a man of integrity and love for people and the word of God.

That pastor... has earned great respect.

D4T, your posts are great. I love the way you are able to word them and put things into perspective.

Coop, I will not get in a protracted argument with you, because you have proven yourself to be basically a scorner, and you are not open to dialogue. You just rail and mock.

But your post here reveals once again your colossal ignorance of the Scripture.

Paul submitted to a lot of things in order to maintain fellowship with his brethren, even to shaving his head and taking a vow in the temple.

He also said "if eating meant offends my brother, I will eat no meat while the world standeth."

So if making a few concessions and foregoing a few liberties in order to expand my opportunities to minister makes me a "man-pleaser," then I am in good company, because Paul was one too.

Let's consider you, on the other hand--a talented and gifted man with tremendous musical ability, God given, that could bless the Kingdom greatly.

Is that ability, that talent if you will, being utilized to its full potential?

No.

Why not?

At least in part because you would rather cling to a few liberties than to be in fellowship with a truth preaching assembly.

So when the judgment comes around and you are asked to account for your talent, and what you have done with it, you get to explain to the Lord how that your beard and long hair were more important to you than using and being a good steward of what God blessed you with to bless the Kingdom with.

Good luck.

The Church is striving to be like Christ.

I am striving to be in fellowship with the Church as we grow together, keeping the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

Any dimwit knows that Jesus is our ultimate example, the measure of Whose stature we are reaching for.

I do not teach that facial hair is a sin. Period.

I have been honest with every man who has ever asked me.

I have told men that it would be sad to let a beard hide from others the good person that I know, and that I think it is honorable to forego this liberty in order to expand out influence.

If that much honesty doesn't qualify for the D4T Seal of Approval, fine with me. :)

Coon, you also bring about good points, and I'm gleaning something from the discussion between you and D4T. That being said, can you expound on why you believe a beard hides someone from others, and how shaving it off will expand their influenence?

Truth preaching Assembly?
The many doctrines and rules of your assemblies are far from truth.

Digging For Truth said:

If a brother is "weak" in that he knows the word of God doesn't speak against this and he has a hard time following a pastor who will stand for something that is so blatanlty not in the word of God then that brother will not be made allowance for because of the other "weak" brethren who would fall at the sight of a beard.

The brethren you speak of are only weak because their pastor has built them on a weak foundation. The foundation of opinion which is not based on the word of God. Their weakness could be cured by the pastor stating openly that he no longer sees where this is a sin or wrong. The pastor would then have removed the weakness that he himself, possibly, had instilled in them and then both sides would have had their weaknesses healed by honesty and shorn up by standing upon His word and His word alone.

Me:

Amen Bro. its that simple!

And after HUNDREDS of posts NO ONE has tried to make a Biblical case that beards are a sin. It is so staggering! Something that is such a HUGE thing in Oneness groups and yet virtually 100 per cent of them understand that Christ is not against it.

No wonder Trins and Arians are leary of Oneness groups.

Sister,

In the 60's, beards became a symbol of a counter-culture that was wicked, and not something the church needed to be identified with. So men began to teach that it was better to be clean shaven.

While that has changed somewhat, there is still a little bit of that identity lingering. I have been to seminars in the past where secular people recommended that you be clean shaven when applying for jobs, because it presented a more wholesome image.

In the minds of many people in the church, beards are associated with elements that we don't consider wholesome.

Since that is the case, why should I allow my liberty to be a stumblingblock to those people?

No one is offended by my being clean shaven; some might be if I were to wear a beard.

Since I must be a good steward of the ministry God has called me to, and since my opportunities to minister would be much inhibited by my insistence on taking that liberty, I choose to forego it.

Not because it would be a sin, and not because I think it is a requirement for salvation. Obviously it is not.

But because it is lawful but not expedient.

That is good to hear... your example seemed to say something different.... I am glad to hear this... anything else would have totally unexpected.

Again.. good to hear...

Just a question here. Do you not feel that for someone who carries as much authority as many people place in them to make a statement like this that it would be taken as very similar to having been taught over the pulpit as a standard. This is very close to what I spoke of before. It is not being preached but there is a definite peer pressure being placed there.

Also one more question.... after you make these passing suggestions to a brother and a few weeks or months pass and he still hasn't shaved the beard. What is your opinion of his attitude in this situation? Do you feel he is being rebellious in any way? Do you fully accept this decision on his part if he doesn't take your passing comment to heart?

If I sought to offer or withhold a D4T seal of approval then I would not be wise. In that I would be comparing you to me and I have already quoted scripture as to the errancy of such comparisons.

I am simply discussing the subject. I think that what we are having here is a wonderful discussion (the most enjoyable I have experienced in a while as people mostly just want to yell back and forth) and for that I give you thanks and honor.

if we disagree... that is fine... but we have had an open exchange of ideas and that is the key to learning. I appreciate your patience with my posts and the great opportunity for discussion on this subject that you are offering.

Iron does indeed sharpen iron... but only when moving in opposite directions.

I never gain anything from a back patting session with someone who sees things just as I do

Says you.

I speak of churches that teach the only plan of salvation, which you claim to believe.

Your liberties are so dear to you that you will go to trinity churches that don't teach the truth of salvation rather than go somewhere where you might hear something that tweaks your flesh.

That says loud and clear that your love for your own way is greater than your love for the Oneness message and the New Birth message.

You can rant otherwise all you want, but your actions speak luder than words.

I have prayed for you numerous times, Coop.

You are a man with a lot of potential.

But you let trinkets become more important to you than the great treasure God allowed you to receive.

That is a source of grief to me.